Tonner Jackson, CEO at Course Studio

Hello and welcome to Manageable Conversations, the podcast where we speak to leaders across industry sectors. In each episode, we'll discover what helped them in their career, how they stay sharp, and ways they get the best out of their teams. I'm Farley Thomas, the founder of Manageable. We hope this podcast inspires you to be a great leader by learning from others. My guest today is Tonner Jackson, the co-founder and CEO of Course Studio. Course Studio partners with educators to create wonderful online learning experiences that have global impact. The company launched in spring 2020 at a time when online learning was the only way many of us were able to learn new things or reach our audiences. I'm looking forward to asking Tonner how he went about building his organization and creating followership. Tonner, thank you very much for joining this Manageable Conversation. We've had conversations with CEOs that have joined an organization through the pandemic, but my understanding, Tonner, is that you've pulled off a successful business launch through the pandemic. And I was just curious if you could just share some reflections on how that was, and particularly perhaps, you know, corralling the team, leading, hiring, you know, all of those things that leaders need to do, and it's hard enough in typical times. What's been your experience?

Yeah, first of all, yeah, thanks for having me, Farley. There's no rulebook, right? Like, I think that's like one thing that I think a lot of folks in my position just had to deal with a lot of kind of zero-to-one situations where there wasn't a lot of like reference points. So, for hiring, I think the first thing that was really— I was really fortunate was that I've just like through different work experiences, I've had a lot of folks in my personal networks that I immediately knew I wanted to tap and work with. Um, so like basically the first kind of goal for us was to hire a technical team and I'd worked with a really talented developer in a previous job. And so I think like, yeah, I think the first thing, which is maybe similar to folks, you know, whether you're in a pandemic or not, is just tapping your personal network. I think what's been more challenging is how to hire exclusively using digital channels for a business that has like no physical location. And we were still kind of figuring what we were doing. So I think the biggest challenge for us was just having a really coherent messaging about what we do and, um, being able to storytell like virtually exclusively over Zoom because I'm a pretty like gesticular, um, person. I'm like a pretty enthusiastic person and having to channel that from Zoom is— I think it's, it's— I just like, I just don't— it's been maybe more challenging to make that as effective as it might be in person, but But yeah, I think like positioning, communication, and just trying to like keep a high level of enthusiasm with folks has probably been the most important thing.

Tonner, one of the things that I'm typically curious about is how do super busy entrepreneurs, you know, business leaders such as you stay resilient, find outlets for the stress and the pressure?

I have a very kind of, I don't want to say dogmatic reading practice, but like I have like my mornings are pretty sacred to me. I try to read for 30 to 45 minutes and then I try to play guitar in the mornings. I will totally concede that the guitar playing has been more challenging since Core Studios kind of lifted off. But the one thing that I find is like very sacred to me is just the reading time. So, I definitely think like the one thing that I, it's like, there's kind of like a matrix for me. There's like entertaining reading that's like not insightful. There's reading that's just insightful and less entertaining. And then there's kind of like an overlap of those two, like entertaining and insightful. And so, I try to like optimize my morning reading for that, which tends to be like, I read a ton of business biographies. And I think there's a few benefits for that. I think one is that like you're just reading about challenges that you're going through and there's like, there's a lot effectively, it's kind of like quasi therapy. It's like these folks are like in the room with you and they're kind of, they're helping you through, you know, what are more challenging times and just being able to have like a reference point for me to like how they dealt with those solutions and bringing those to Core Studio. It's like every Monday or every other Monday, I'll often share like a few bullets from a book that are that I read that I think is like really important for Core Studio. I just finished Bob Iger's book. I think it's called The Ride of a Lifetime. And at the end of the book, he has like basically a bunch of bullets about how he built Disney and bought Pixar and bought Star Wars and like all of the lessons that he learned from those things that are super relevant for Core Studio. So, and I just love the storytelling meaning of biography. So that's a big thing.

I'm struck by Tonner Jackson Jackson's point on sacred time to unwind, recharge, and get inspiration. Where in your schedule do you leave time for inspiration from diverse sources? It's important not just to reflect on this, but like Tonner Jackson Jackson, also bring those inspiring ideas to your team every week rather than just benefit personally. What better way to bring value to the team than by sharing new ideas with them? This builds your credibility as a leader, which is a key source of trust. If you're following these illustrious iconic leaders for for their insights and their entertainment value? You know, what is drawing the team in Core Studio to follow you, do you think?

Yeah, it's a good question. Like, I like really, like, I try to overshare everything. Like, I mean, my team will know this, like, that I, like, one of our policies is like to overshare, overcommunicate. I think this is especially true in being a fully distributed team. So I think that folks, enjoy that I, again, like, I think it's from The Alchemist, but I think Paulo Coelho says like enthusiasm is one of God's languages. So like I said this before, but like bringing enthusiasm to everything and oversharing a lot of the insights that I think from folks who inspire me, like from the books I mentioned to you.

Is there a mantra that you have, you know, or if you think about a mantra that you would lay claim to, what would that be?

Yeah, actually there's definitely one that immediately comes to mind. We have a one-page strategic plan at Core Studio, and part of that one-page strategic plan is our core values. And the one that I think is by far the closest thing to a mantra would be, it's called have whys, which is like have reasons for things. And I actually got this from Charlie Munger. So he has a book, there's a book called the Almanac, Charlie Munger's Almanac. I might be getting that name wrong, but there's like small segment from the book where he references this German entrepreneur. And I think it's in Texas who run an engineering company. And they had one policy at this engineering company, which was, you have to have, you have to, whenever you're ordering or delegating something, you have to have a really strong why behind why you're delegating that thing. In fact, and if you're, if you don't tell someone why they need to do something, they shouldn't do that thing. And so at Core Studio, the way we kind of, our vernacular is like have whys for everything we do. And it's kind of, it's an interesting, it's like manifested in some interesting things. So like sometimes I'll ask someone to do something and I'll think it's obvious and I'll think that it's like, I'll maybe I'm like really busy and they'll be like, well, Tonner, why? And that's like super frustrating for me. Then after like a moment of pause, I'm like, well, that's awesome. Like, that's actually, I'm really glad like folks, so folks are like even like using this language with me. I think the benefit with that, and I think the way Charlie kind of outlines this in his book, is that when reasons, when the reasons for things are well articulated and meticulously laid out, it just allows everybody to buy into why they're doing anything at all and why it's important and why it's actually moving the business forward, why it's helping you meet your goals. So I think the one thing that I love that we have as a business is we have whys for everything. We're making decisions that have really strong logic, they have strong rationales. And I think tons of businesses don't do this. I think tons of businesses tell people to do things and nobody knows why they're doing things, which sounds absurd, but in my direct experience and my experience working with companies, it's an interesting thing, but like, hey, why are you doing this? Like, what's— and then they're forced to have to rationalize what that thing is. And if it's not moving it towards a larger business objective, It's like they're not doing the right thing.

What do you make of Tonner's mantra, "Have whys"? Do you have one like it? And if not, why not? What's impressive to me is Tonner's acknowledgement that his mantra might actually cause him frustration, but ultimately he knows that this is a sign of success. It reminds me of those infuriating whys from my own kids, but they do have a point, don't they? Most people want to understand the bigger picture. Without it, they're just performing tasks for someone else. With it, they're contributing to the purpose and mission of the whole organization that they're a part of. This makes me think, Tonner Jackson Jackson, you know, one other theme that, that informs our conversations with business leaders like you is sharing tips And maybe, you know, a couple of perspectives if I may. One around starting and scaling and then in terms of teams, teamwork, you know, what have you seen great teams do?

Yeah, I think the first one that I'm glad we did this at Course2Do early and there's this framework, it's from a book called Scaling Up by Verne Harnish. It's a one-page strategic plan and what's interesting about that core values is one that I've touched on. There's a second one which is like have a really like really belabor and spend time thinking through why you exist as a business. Like, why should people get up in the morning to do this thing for you? And hopefully that thing is like not just strictly an economic thing. And I think that the earlier a business can do that, create alignment around that, I think the better, because I don't think people like— like, I'm certainly not motivated by like making money specifically. I think money is like a proxy for doing other things that are really valuable for people, which do get me excited. So, really having a strong purpose. Like, for Core Studio, it's like we want to unleash creators. We want to help the best people who do a thing do that thing for the entire world. So, I think my job is partially just like, you know, being a chief why officer on that topic is like everything we're doing is helping us drive expertise to help these folks do that thing. So, I think that's a big one. I think it's really easy to just neglect. Like, I think a lot of folks spend more time working in the business, like executing on stuff without reminding folks about why they're doing anything at all. And then on the second piece in terms of team, you know, helping teams kind of gel together, there's one thing that like, I, at Core Studio, there's another core value which I think has been really helpful for us. And it's, this is borrowed from Netflix, and that's to say what you think with positive intent. And I think the important part of this is that like, we're like a nice Canadian company. Canadians are like notoriously kind of congenial individuals. And I think it's tough for anybody, but I think it's especially tough for folks that kind of reared in our cultural tradition to have conflict, like healthy conflict. So I think that for us, one thing I'm constantly bringing to meetings when like there's important decisions being made is like having every single person, whether they're super junior or super senior, being like, are you saying what you think? Like, I want to know exactly what you think. I don't want you to care what you think is I want to hear. I want you to think, I want you to share what you think moves the business forward. And I think like Netflix is inspiring because I think they've built a really strong culture around this and I think they've— I think there's really good outcomes they've generated because of some of the core values that they've had. But this is a good one. I think like getting folks to be totally focused on what the goal is and don't make concessions based on if they think they're hurting folks' feelings. Say what they think because if they're not doing that, they're not— they're being sort of disloyal to the business. So, kind of encouraging healthy conflict by having folks say what they think I think is one thing that I think we benefited from as a business, and I've tried to bring that to the companies I've worked with as well.

Tonner, that's probably a great time to draw a line on this conversation.

Thanks for having me, Farrah. This was really enjoyable.

If you enjoyed this Manageable conversation, there are many other perspectives we offer our community of managers worldwide who coach and individuals from all walks of life who benefit from being coached. That's all from me. I'm Farley Thomas. Until next time.