Githae Githinji on Life in Kenya

Hey everybody, this is Sam, one of the producers of Conversations with Tyler. This is part 2 of the bonus episode showing the daily life, culture, and politics of Nairobi and Kenya at large. In this episode, you'll hear from Gatai Gatingi, who is an elder working in Tatu City, a 5,000-acre mixed-use development just north of Nairobi. In case you missed it, make sure to check out part 1 to hear from Harriet Mureithi, a young woman working in Tatu City, for a different perspective. Now, on to the show. Conversations with Tyler is produced by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, bridging the gap between academic ideas and real-world problems. Learn more at mercatus.org. For a full transcript of every conversation, enhanced with helpful links, visit www.conversationswithtyler.com. Hello everyone and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler. Today I'm sitting here in Tatu City, right outside of Nairobi, Kenya, and I'll be chatting with Kitai Gitinji. He's a businessman in the transport industry and he's a Kikuyu elder. He's stationed at Tatu City where he's a chairman. His roles as chairman include dispute resolution, and also coordinating community ceremonies. His most recent activity as the Elders Chairman for the area around Tatu City was planning and coordinating the cleansing ceremony of a mogumu tree being moved into Tatu City. Gitae is 58 years old. He is from the Agikuyu community. He is born and raised in Mukwaini, Nyeri County, the central region of Kenya. He resides now in Kiambu County, where he has also established his business. Kitai, welcome.

Welcome, sir.

Thank you for talking with me.

Yeah.

What is your business? Could you tell us?

I deal with transports.

Transports. What does that mean specifically?

I have matatus and I have small vehicles which I normally deliver. Yes.

And you own the vehicles? You sell them to businesses, to individuals, or who are your customers?

No, I do transport. Let's say transporting people from Ruiru to Nairobi.

Oh, so you drive them from one place to—

I don't. I own. So I employ people who do that business, who do that job. I'm just the manager of— I manage my business. Yes.

When you look for good drivers who will do good work, What qualities do you look for in them?

A driver who is competent of what he's doing.

But how do you tell if they're good? When you talk to them, you have an interview, what do you ask or how do you approach that?

Normally I do test them, me personally, see whether somebody has all the requirements to be a driver. You need to have all the documents that are required by the government and then his ability to do that job.

How can you tell who will be a good driver or not a good driver?

It's a person who is qualified in that skill.

So the main thing is the license.

The main thing is the license plus the other government documents and whether somebody is sober.

Sober?

Yeah. So by mean, you know, you can employ some others who are drunkards who can—

Yes.

Kiss a lot of things. You have to look for somebody who is a little bit educated, who knows the responsibility of or a person who can handle that vehicle itself.

Yes, I understand.

Yeah.

The part of Kenya where you're from, that's Mukurweni, right?

Yeah.

What is special about that part of Kenya?

The part of Kenya Mukurweni? Well, as I could say, I left the place a long time ago.

Yes.

The moment I finished my school. Yeah. I came here in Nairobi, and that's why I established myself here in Nairobi. I left my motherhood.

Why did you leave there?

I was just coming to look for good pastures here.

Just for better jobs?

Yes. When I came here, I was employed here. So when I get employed there, I got invested here.

Yes.

I got a piece of plots here, which I built. So I reside here now.

And where you come from, do you miss it in any way? Or you're just happier to be here?

No, I just go there visiting.

Just visiting?

Even though I lost my mother and father, so I just go and visit my brothers who are there.

Why do you think you left and they didn't? Like, what's the difference?

That is a rural area. We don't have a lot of job opportunities like we have here in Kiambu, in Nairobi.

Even apart from jobs, if you just think about living there, is it more exciting to live here or more interesting to live there?

Well, I would say it's more interesting to live here because if I may think of job opportunities or looking for something here, it's more convenient, more than The rural area.

And your native language from the family is Kiswahili, right?

Yeah.

And you learned English here or you learned it in school or?

Kiswahili.

No, but that you grew up speaking, right?

I grew up speaking Kikuyu.

Ah, Kikuyu. Okay.

Yeah. Kikuyu is my main language.

Okay.

Yeah.

And what other languages do you speak?

The other languages is Kiswahili. Yeah. Yes.

And English, of course.

And English.

How did you learn those?

From school.

When you were growing up as a boy?

Yeah, when I was growing up as a young boy. Yeah. Yeah. I went up to Form 4.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If you think about Africa as a whole, do you think you're lucky to live in Kenya or you wish you were somewhere else? Or how do you view Kenya within Africa?

Kenya is a good country.

What makes it good?

It makes it good for actually the way I have lived here, the way I have stayed here. I've never seen bad things.

In terms of like violence or disorder?

No violence. People are here very peaceful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you think the economy is pretty good for Africa?

Well, I would say it's good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How did you come to have your role in Tatu City?

In Tatu City, where Elisaid is just near the Tatu City area.

Right.

So As the community, we just have groupings where we go and you are shown how Kikuyus— our tradition, we normally do.

Right.

We normally do and join and have our own ways of conducting ourselves. So I joined those Wazzez and I was initiated to that group. I became so active to an extent that even then they felt the lower, I'm praying to them. I need to be their elder, and they choose me as their chairman.

Okay, I understand.

Yeah.

And what makes you good at that? Like, what's your quality that makes you a good elder?

It's because of knowing how to coordinate people in the best way. If you are a violent man, I just come, I talk with you in a polite way.

Yes.

You understand one another. I show you how you are supposed to live with the other people. I show the goodness of peace and such kind of things.

So it's a lot of experience dealing with people.

Yeah.

What would be a typical dispute that you have to decide or resolve?

A lot of them.

But like, what would be an example? What might happen where they need you?

Example?

Yes.

Let's see if there's a fight between a man and a man.

Yes.

If it's a person who have, let's say, got somebody's property, such kind of things, we sit down, talk it out. Somebody's hitting the other, domestic violence, all of that.

And what do you do that the court system does not do, right? Because you're not police, but still you do something useful.

What we normally do, we as a group, we listen to one another. Yes, very much. And when one person reaches to that stage of being told that you are a man now, You normally have to respect your elder.

Yes.

Those people do respect me. So when I call you, when I tell you, come and we talk it out with my group, you cannot say you cannot come. Because if you do it, we normally discipline somebody not by beating. We just remove you from our group. And when we isolate you from our group, you feel that is not fair for you. You come back and say, I apologize, we take you back to the group.

So if you're isolated, you can't be friends with those people anymore?

When we isolate you, we mean you are not allowed to interact in any way, any business, anything. Yes, with the other community. And if it is so, definitely you have to be a loser because you might be needing one of those people to help in a business or something of the sort. But when you're isolated, this man tells you no. Go and cleanse yourself first with that group.

And does your family reject you also, or just your friends?

If your family rejects you, that is a family dispute. And if it comes to that, yes, we take it in another way because we have to know first how does that dispute arise, right? It might be your wife is the one who has a problem. For that one, you don't interfere so much. We leave it to the family.

Yes.

Yes.

But if the man has the problem, if the family have a problem also, we chip inside and we help them to resolve that dispute by talking to both of them. Yeah, trying to get both of them to agree again.

Yes.

What's the biggest family problem that you see? The most common one?

The most common one is it happens when one man is so drunk, goes beat the woman, chases the woman. The woman pushes with other men, call it adultery. When she does that, at least we do normally ship in to resolve that issue, but not most common. That one we normally leave it to the family, right? Yes. Not unless the family comes to us and tell us we need the help in this. We normally don't like so much interfering in the family matters.

Problems with children, you deal with those, or not so much?

In form of children, yes, we do normally do, because in our group as men, we initiate small boys. Yes, from childhood to adulthood, we circumcise. Yes, yes. When it's the age, yes, we have groupings. We have circumcised all Kikuyu boys, Kikuyu, Ebu boys from Meru. Yeah, that is our community. We call it Gema community.

Yes.

The group of that community. We do have groups where we have our own doctors, qualified doctors. For like, let's say like last year we had one in Githuguri.

Right.

In Githuguri Primary School. That is where we were. We had 350 boys whom we initiated. We help them, we call them, we talk with them, tell them the rite of passage that one person is going. Educate them. And after that, we stay with those boys for 10 days. 10 days till that boy is healed.

Yes. And how old is the boy at this point?

At this point is when he finishes 38.

Okay.

Well, now he's going to Form 1. Yes, yes. We make sure we mentor that boy. At the same time, after the boy goes back to the parents, The following year, we make sure we prepare a seminar. We call them because we do normally follow them up to see whether this boy have good behaviors or whatever.

Yes.

If he tries to misbehave, let's say, Pombé and Bé and the rest, we talk to that boy. We make sure that we are molding somebody who can be able to come and join the community.

And there's a ceremony surrounding this initiation? Is there parties or people get together or how does that work?

What happens, eh? We have the doctors who initiate the boy and we have old men coordinated by me. If it's in my area, I have to be— I'm the chairman now. They are the wazzez who talk with these children, show them how to live and whatever.

Yes.

Yeah.

And if there was a problem you could fix in your community, one thing you could improve, what would it be?

Well, what I would wish very much, for example, like you people, when you come to this place, just try to help us, the India people. Try to come boarding these people, because you have come, you got these people. If you both with them, we also will come you as our brother. Yes, yes. Which is so good. Yeah.

And Kikuyu people in Kenya, do you think they're different from the other groups, or the culture is different? How would you describe that?

Well, all the groups has their own kasha.

Yes.

If it's Kikuyu, they have their own. If it's Luo, they have their own. And this is something that we met. It is not something that we are creating. It is from our old grandfathers.

And how would you describe what is special about Kikuyu culture?

What I would describe about them, they are good. That is one thing. And I'm not saying they are good because I'm a Kikuyu. Yes, yes. I'm saying because they are hardworking people. Yes, yes. Many people say they're very good at business and they are friendly and good business people. Yeah, they are business-minded and they are not lazy people.

Not lazy. Do you think they're more extroverted, more open?

More than— even if you go to any part of this country There's nowhere you can go and don't find a Kikuyu.

Yes.

If you move from here to Mombasa, you get out of Kikuyus. Yeah. If you go everywhere, Kikuyus are always there. They like interacting with the other communities.

And the way marriage works for Kikuyu, is it different from the other groups?

Marriage?

Marriage, courtship, how you decide whom to marry. The ceremony, everything. Is it the same or different?

There's no difference because we also marry other communities. Yeah, Akikui is allowed to marry a Kaba. Yes, yes, we intermarry with those communities.

And you marry at same age, younger, older, or that's all the same?

It depends with the feeling of that one person. You can marry whoever you want.

Yes.

Yeah, you are free. We don't have limitations that you should marry this or that. But we do not encourage old men to marry small children.

Sure, of course not.

Yeah, that's not good.

Yeah. How many children do you think a typical family wants to have now in Nairobi?

In Nairobi, not mostly— I can, as I can see now, these young people are preferring 2, 3.

2 or 3.

But in our times, in our old ones, yes, like in my family, yes, my father had 8.

8?

Yeah.

Which do you think is better?

According to today's economy, I would say we don't go all that much getting 10 children, which you won't be able to look after. It is better you have 3 or 4 whom you know very well.

Yeah.

You are going to cater to them to their adulthood.

There are some countries where families just have one. I mean, is that weird to you or— But you know, you go to Korea, people have on average about one, a little less actually.

But average of one is not good. Because, you know, accidents do normally happen.

Sure.

If you have one child and he dies, you are left with nothing.

Yeah.

Why? Get two or three.

Yeah.

Yes. So in the case of anything, you are left with something. Because if you have one and he dies and you are old, you cannot get another one. You see, you'll be left with that.

Yes.

Yeah.

Children here, do they take good care of their parents and grandparents?

Yeah, they do it. They do.

And that's expected. It's part of the culture.

It is this, but we don't force them to. Yeah, it will depend with relationship between your children, you, your own self. Yes, because there are some men or women who do not care for their children. Yes, they just get the children and then let them go away. Yeah, it's good to interact with children. Show them you are their father. Show them you are their mother. These children, we will give you back. Yeah.

Yes.

The way you bring out children is the way you also—

and today, the grandparents, do they help bring up the children even if there's only two?

Yeah, they still do. Yeah.

And what if the family has moved to Nairobi, moved to Mombasa, and the grandparents are far away? Like, how do things work?

For wiki kuyus.

Yes.

If somebody lives from far, we do normally meet, let's say during the holidays. You make sure you go home. You enjoy them.

How do you get home? You take a bus?

You take a bus. Or if you have means, you have a vehicle, you just go there.

Just drive.

Yeah. Yes. Drive with you. Stay with your family for at least 2 or 3 days and you go back to job.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now, I have read in the newspapers the cost of living in Kenya is much higher now. Than a few years ago.

It is.

Why did that happen?

I don't know whether it's because of the population. I don't know whether it's because of the development we have here. But actually, for that one, I cannot really— but it's because of, you know, we have a high— what do we call it? Let's see, if you look in ways or another, the climate have changed.

Yes.

And when the climate have changed, we don't have enough food. Do you get me, right? And when you don't have enough food, you expect the life has to be more harder because there are some people who depends with the rain. Do you get me, right? From that, if you go to the, let's say, a place like in Nairobi right now as we are living, the cost of living also is so high because in, let's say, let me talk about the sector I'm in of transport, of transportation. The life is very hard because of the increase of petroleum. Because if I could say the price of petrol is too high and I cannot be able to hike the price of the person whom I'm carrying, because these people don't have money. So I have to dig deeper to my pocket to sustain what has been added in the petrol. Yeah.

And what do you think should be done to change things? Because it costs so much.

What needs to be done is now— that is now up to the government now to know how they are going to look at their people. Yes, yes, because we now are tied up.

Yeah, but do you know what should be changed to improve this thing?

Because one, if you see for the climate, that is our— that is God now. We have to pray to God now to give us good rains. Like this year we had good rains. What we could do is we know why we are not having enough rain.

Why?

We plant a lot of trees, we stop logging, we plant a lot of tea trees so that we could get enough rain. When you go back to the side of the government now, now the government is for them to know how they are going to legalize these prices so that at least the rice should be a little bit Yeah.

Do you use mobile money to buy things? Money in your smartphone?

Yeah.

And how does that work for you? That's easy, that's hard, or how is it?

It is not hard, it's easy, because when we get money, we do not— nowadays we even use phones when you are paying things. It's more better to, because we don't lose a lot of money when we are used, even though There's a lot of tax in it.

And do you order things online? You buy online and someone sends it to you?

No, for me I don't.

But younger people do, or?

But young people do.

What kind of things do they buy online?

Oh, normally they buy things that they don't have, you don't have here.

Yeah, things from other countries.

From other countries, like vehicles. Yeah, kitchenware and whatever, even building materials. They do normally do it.

And why don't you buy online?

Me, I'm a little bit analog.

Do you listen to YouTube at all?

It's late.

What do you listen to?

The common radio.

Common radio?

Yeah.

What kind of music? Benga music, or you listen to Congo music?

Traditional music. Traditional music? Yeah.

What kind of traditional?

Kikuyu or Luo music, whichever. I like this one very much.

And this will be on the radio. Do you like music from other African countries?

Definitely, yes.

What else do you like?

Oh, you are talking of—

What you like. Yeah. Nigeria. There's a lot of Nigerian music in America now.

All of countries.

All countries?

Yes. The only thing the music should, you know, whichever music, if it's good.

Do you listen to any American music?

If I get a chance to be in there, I do.

You do?

Yeah.

What do you listen to?

Whichever music is being—

Whichever is playing on the radio?

Yeah.

You have public utilities, right? You get electricity?

Water.

How good are those services?

The services that we have been given by—

That you get? Your electricity, is it reliable?

Yes, it is. It is.

And your water?

Even the water is— we have enough water.

You have enough water?

Yeah, from these boreholes that we are getting from this.

And you get water from a well or from piping, or how does your water come?

This area we have now, we have people who get what we supply from water from wells.

Yes.

And also from the county government.

Yes.

Yeah.

And you feel that's safe water?

We could say it's safe because what they normally do when we get this water, it's already treated so that we can—

Yes.

Consume it.

What are some of the other expenses for a family in Kenya? So there's food, right? Transportation, rent. What else is a big problem? Education.

Education?

Yeah. If you send your kid to school, the kid is 10, the school is free or you have to pay?

You have to pay.

Even for government school?

In government, you also have to pay, but little money. Yeah.

And you think the schools are good or?

Well, I would say it's good 'cause I'm used to those schools. I've known how more Africans, they are better than those. Yeah. You normally adapt what you see or what you get there.

Yes. Yeah. Funerals, do they cost a lot of money?

No, for the funeral it depends with the family.

Yes.

Because you, you, for the funeral, if the family feels they are going to buy an expensive hearse or coffin, it's to them. That only depends on how the family is, because there are some who don't require a lot of money. There are some who like to use a lot of money. That only normally depends with how the family is.

And the family pays for everything, or the community shares the cost?

The community. Most of the times, for the funerals, the community is chipping in.

And who decides How much people pay?

Nobody decides. You give what you have. You are not being forced to— you have to give this, you know.

So people who have more money, they give more money?

Definitely, yes.

Do you ever have disputes over this that you have to judge?

No.

Because they always agree?

Yeah.

I'm surprised they always agree. In my country, they would not always agree.

I don't know why. I think in this country of us, you don't have like— we don't do it like that.

If you could change something about the government in Kenya, like, what would you change? What's the biggest problem?

If I could?

You could change something about government here. They would do something new, stop doing something bad, change some law. What would you change?

For that one, I couldn't say there's nothing I can or cannot change because I depend with what my government tells me to do.

Yes.

Yeah.

So there's nothing you can change?

And not unless the governments come in and tell me, 'Change this and change this.' Yeah. Yes, they are our leaders and we have elected them.

Yes.

So we, we have to follow what they tell us to do.

But sometimes do you wish they would tell you different things?

We as elders, we don't dispute with the government.

You don't dispute?

Yeah, we don't.

And you help enforce it in a way, right?

But we don't force them to do things. Yeah, we depend on what they tell us. Yeah, yeah.

Women's rights movements in Kenya, do you see a lot of that feminism, bigger role for women, more women working?

Well, for women, let's say I can't talk much, even though they have their own rights. Yeah.

So what do you think of feminism in Kenya? Women should work, have equal say as the men, have more rights.

No, we are all equal here.

All equal?

Women have their rights and we do have our own rights.

Yeah. So you think women have equal rights already?

Even though when we come to our community, there are some stages that we limit. You cannot expect a woman to be controlling a man in home. No.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

And in government, how many women are there?

That's what I can say.

But the president is not a woman, right?

Yeah.

People in the legislature, they're mostly men?

No, even women. So we created another— let's say, in the sense, we have women-led so that they could bring that to the gender to be almost the same.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How was it here during times of COVID Was it a big change or not so much?

Well, but by then the life was too hard because that is something that we are not used with.

Yes.

Yes, we had a very hard time.

Things closed down or everything stayed open?

Things closed down. We had to stay indoors. We had— there was a lot of curfew. The time that you need to work, you are told, "No, you can't go." How many people got COVID? I actually, I cannot tell you the actual figure, but a lot of people.

Did you?

No, I didn't.

So you were lucky.

Let's say it's God, because I also went for the vaccination. I was— I took the whole medication, so I thought—

So you took vaccine?

Yeah, I did.

And most people did here?

Yeah.

Which vaccine was it? Chinese? American? Do you know? British?

They were all— the people were taking all.

Do you know which one you had?

I can't remember, actually. Yeah. Yeah.

How was it to stay at home for so long? I mean, was that hard?

No, it was hard. It was tough because you cannot expect being told at once, stay at home, and you are not used to it.

Yeah.

It was too hard.

Yeah. I think it was very hard in many places.

And we lost a lot.

A lot of people died.

Not, you know, even economically we lost a lot. And I think that what that time of COVID is the one that brought even these hardships we have even today. We have not yet turned to a normal because of that period.

How much do you worry about crime, people stealing things from you? Is crime a big problem for you? Or do you feel it's very safe?

Well, sometimes back, let's say in 2 or 3 years, there were a lot of crimes. But now this is— the government have tried to legalize the crime in these areas of ours.

With more police, or what do they do?

Not even more police, also involving the community. We said the government decided to introduce this thing we call Nyubakumi.

Yes.

When it was introduced, the Nyubakumi If they noted there's somebody who is not good in that family, they had to report to the nearest so that that person could be dealt with. And it did help a lot. At the same time, they also used the wazees and whatever in the community to identify all these thugs and whatever.

And you think crime will keep on getting better in Kenya? Yeah. For this reason?

Yeah.

Why do you think crime is worse in Nairobi than in smaller cities?

Definitely, you expect because the, the life in town is more harsher than in the rural areas.

It's just tougher to live there. Yes, costs are higher, you need more money.

In town you need money, and when you need money, you don't have a job, you expect yourself to drive yourself to such kind of Such kind of things.

What do you think is the biggest problem in the slums? If you go to Majengo, one of the slums?

Employment.

Employment. So not enough good jobs. Yes. And future jobs for Kenya, what do you think they will be?

The future job in Kenya? That's what I was saying. If we could have people who can help in getting us good jobs and whatever, get trying to help these young people get jobs. I think we could just minimize this kind of hardships that these young boys get. Yeah.

When President Obama visited Kenya, I think it was 2015, did you care? Were you excited? You don't care, or what do you think?

Well, for such a person visiting here, yeah, everybody was excited because It was even Bintu that she was— she, her roots was from Kenya. So we are happy about the man coming to visit us. We see our brother who was God's servant become great person.

So he's still very popular here?

Yes, man, he's popular.

The Kenyans who moved to America, what do people think of them? They're happy, or they view them as totally different now, or What's the image?

For that one, I can't say much because I've never visited that area.

But you haven't been to America, but people talk about those who leave, right?

At the same time, I don't have a relative who have been there.

How about Kenyans who go to America?

They normally say when they go there, they get good life, the place is good, or sashkama, kind of a thing.

Do you think they're happier or do you think they're happier here? The ones who leave.

Definitely that one I cannot be able to answer because that's all I've told you. I've never had a relative who can talk one-on-one and tell me.

There was a change in the constitution of Kenya that gave a lot more power to the counties, right? Was that a good idea?

Yeah, it was a good idea because the help that the government used to give the community.

Yes.

When it was devolved to the people, It became so nearer to the people, more than when it was in the national government. Because if there is anything like development and whatever the money is in the counties, it's more easier for the governor to deal with his work more than it was in the national government. Yeah.

I'm sure you know many foreigners come here to see safari, to see animals, elephants. Do you care about these animals? Are you excited, or you've seen so many it's just ordinary for you? What's your attitude?

We do care about, because it is even hard— it is even a boost for us, for the revenue. When new people come, you ship in something, we spend money here. Yeah, you spend money there, here, and the economy, it's boosted a little bit.

But if you see an elephant You personally, are you excited or do you say, oh, I've seen 1,000 elephants, I don't care?

I'm also excited because I'm not mostly used with it. Yeah. The things that cannot excite me is this thing you are living with it here time and again. Let's say something like a dog, a cat, a horse. These are domestic things. You cannot be excited for such kind of things. But when you go get a leopard there, at least you have to be excited.

And which animal excites you the most to see?

Who, me?

You. Hippo?

Something like lion.

Lion?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I'm not used to it so much.

The lions, if you see one, are you afraid? Or maybe they're afraid of you?

You expect it. You have to be afraid because you have the experience that if it chances to get you, it's going to eat you. Yeah.

Do you ever go on a safari as a guide or? Do you go to Masai Mara to see the animals?

Well, I normally don't because in my area in Nyeri, we— I just see these animals openly there.

You just see them normally. You don't need to go anywhere.

So there's no point of going all that much spending and I could see them when I'm going on my way home.

Have you seen leopard? Many people say leopard is hard to see.

Yes, I do. In our area, we have those leopards. Yes.

And you see all the different birds in your area or many of them?

Yes, I do see them.

Is that interesting to you, the birds?

It's not more— it is not that much interesting because I'm used to them.

Yes.

Yes.

What do you think is the attitude here towards China, Chinese people? Do you think they're welcome or there's prejudice or—

Well, what we normally do here in our country, if somebody is coming to help us, they must expect us to be friendly with that person. But if somebody's coming to bring problems with that, we'd say no, that's not a good person.

And you think China has helped Kenya overall?

Well, we could— I could say yes because they have come to help our young boys. When they come to do the roads and whatever, they employ our young boys and whatever who are unemployed.

So they build roads, they build buildings, and that's good for people? Yes. Does America help you at all?

They also do.

What do we do to help?

Because when they come and they start their projects and whatever, when let's say we see these people like this, these who came to Tatu City, they also helping us because they are, well, they come and sell this, we get these industries here, these industries employ our youth, which is a boost to our living here.

Are there groups of people who come who don't help, who make things worse?

Well, I couldn't say so because I have not gone to that study so much.

Do you worry about Kenya's neighbors? So you have a border with Ethiopia, but there's been a big war in Ethiopia. Do you worry this will affect Kenya? Well, Somalia, right?

I do worry, but definitely I can do nothing because you don't know why those people are fighting. They have their own domestic things there. So I prefer to mind about my own.

If you help them with dispute resolution, do you think you could improve it for them?

If it can be, if we can do, it's good. We can help them if we can, if they can be able to be, if you can reach there and be able to help with the dispute and whatever, it's good. Because it is always good to have friendly ties and get your neighbor without a lot of vetters and whatever, waiting or whatever. It's good to have a good neighbor. Yeah.

A lot of people from India live in Kenya, of course, and they've lived here maybe 100 years, the families. Do you think of them as Kenyan, or do you think still it's like different? You think they're Indian?

Only what I believe, eh. If you come here, let's say you come here and you acquire property here, if you get a shout when you are here, I would say that shout is a Kenyan. Yes. You are not supposed to be chased by anybody. You have decided to come. You also a human being. I believe I can go and live anywhere as long as I'm accommodated there. Yeah.

Do you like Indian food?

I don't. I wouldn't say whether I like it or not because I've never—

You don't eat it?

I don't eat it.

You eat ugali, Kenyan food?

Yeah. I'm used to my normal food.

And you like ugali?

More than.

What else do you eat for a normal meal? What else do you eat besides ugali? Nyama shoma. What is that?

Nyama shoma. This nyama shoma, this is the meat from the meat we slaughter from our goats and whatever.

Does goat meat here have a special or sacred status? Is it the best meat?

Well, I would say yes, because when we are doing our sacrifices, we men, we Kikuyu, we normally use those goats, those lambs. Yeah.

So that's your favorite food?

Not really.

What's your favorite?

Vegetables.

Well, like what kind?

At my age, I don't prefer eating a lot of meat so much. I prefer taking these local foods.

What kinds of vegetables might you have here?

Here?

Yeah, that you eat.

We do have a lot of them.

But what would you eat? A normal meal?

Dentritus, I do.

Yeah. The young people, do they eat the same things you eat or they eat very different things?

Young people prefer taking these junk foods from the supermarkets, chips and whatever. Of which is not really good for them. They should eat foods that we Wazzez eat so that you can live longer and live a little bit healthier. Yeah.

Are you religious? Do you go to church?

Yes, I do.

Christian or Muslim, or—

I'm a Christian.

Christian. What kind, like Protestant?

No, I'm a Catholic.

Catholic.

Yeah.

What about Catholic is more appealing to you?

I was brought up a Catholic from my childhood, and I came to like it because Catholics are not all that much controversial. Yeah.

And being religious, does that help your work as community elder?

Yes.

How does that relate? How does it connect?

You know, when you are near to God, you are near to people also.

And the people respect you more? And you think the religion gives you some wisdom?

Yeah.

Do you watch TV at all?

I do.

What do you watch?

Local, local things.

Like movies or news or just everything?

Not much. Movies, not so much.

And what language do you watch in? Kikuyu or English or?

English. Any.

Any?

Yeah.

Whatever's on.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you like foreign shows or like Kenya shows?

Any. The only thing is if it's interesting, I do watch.

And what would make a show interesting for you? Like, what should the topic be?

If it's mostly talking about my— how I, you know, our way of living, that is, I do like it very much. Of course, I do like getting more experience on how to stay with people.

Yes.

Yeah.

Your children, they live in Kenya, yes?

Yes, they live in Kenya.

How many do you have?

We have two.

Great. Yeah. And what do they do?

One is married. Both of them are girls. One is married. The other one is in school. Yeah.

They live near here?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's great.

That one, I live with her at my place. Yeah.

Yeah. What do you think is the next thing you will try to do for your community?

Well, I would say I would just try to go ahead with give them or showing them the way we should be living here, living in a peaceful way.

If you compare the views you have now to the views you had as a young person, What have you changed your mind about in life?

I've changed my mind because now I know how to stay with people, co-living.

So you understand other people better?

Yeah, more than.

And you see the importance of helping them cooperate?

Yeah.

Do you have any questions for me?

Yeah, I can ask you one.

Please.

Do you stay in Tatu City? Do you work in Tatu City or you are just a visitor?

I am just a visitor. So I'm an old friend of Stephen Jennings.

Okay.

And I've never been to Kenya before. This is my first time.

Okay.

I wanted very much to come.

Yeah.

And I knew Stephen here, so I thought I would see him.

Okay.

So I'm here for 5 to 6 days.

Okay.

My wife is coming and then I go on safari with her.

Okay.

That's my story here.

That's good. So, this Steven Jennings is your good friend, huh?

He and I worked together over 30 years ago.

That's good.

But I had not seen him in a long time either.

Oh.

Because he was in many distant places and I live in America near Washington, D.C. Oh, okay.

He is your friend. Just go and tell him to help our boys who are here who are unemployed.

And how do you think he should do that?

Well, as a community, he can look for a way. If you have employment here, you can just let us know and we ship these boys of ours here. You can also help us with educating some of these young boys who are who need help.

Yeah. What do you think the rest of the world should know about Kenya that they don't know?

Well, uh, the only thing in Kenya, the only problem we do have in Kenya is only employment. Yeah.

You want to see more foreign businesses come to create more jobs? More Chinese investments, more Americans who work at Tatu City.

If you could have more jobs and you have more investors to come here and invest in us, when they are coming to invest, we also benefit from the creation of jobs and whatever, because we have a lot of young people who are more educated, but they don't, they don't have a ring because they don't have jobs. Yeah.

And last question, are you optimistic about Kenya? And if so, why? You think the future will be better?

Yeah.

Why?

Because according to my— according to what I believe, we are learning how to shape our country in the best way possible. Whether in hard times or good times, we have to face all the challenges and we have to make our country more better. And we have also to invite you friends to come and help us also. Yeah, in one way or another.

Gita Gidinji.

Thank you. East or West, home is the best.

Gita Gidinji, thank you very much.

Thank you also.

Thanks for listening to Conversations with Tyler. You can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. If you like this podcast, please consider giving us a rating and leaving a review. This helps other listeners find the show. On Twitter, I'm @TylerCowen and the show is @CowenConvos. Until next time, please keep listening and learning.