Martina Navratilova on Shaping Herself (Live at Mason)

Conversations with Tyler is produced by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, bridging the gap between academic ideas and real-world problems. Learn more at mercatus.org. And for more conversations, including videos, transcripts, and upcoming dates, visit conversationswithtyler.com. Thank you, Martina. We are greatly honored to have you here today. You have won Wimbledon 9 times, I believe.

Yep.

And more astonishing yet, there are, I believe, 80 different events where you have won both the singles and the doubles of the same event.

Yes, 80, 80 times. They just gave a million-dollar bonus last week in Indian Wells if a player could win both singles and doubles. They didn't do that in my day, unfortunately.

If we were to take your achievements and rather than framing them as sports achievements and athletic, which of course they were, but to think of them in terms of both education, self-education, and management, how would you describe the approach that took you, you know, by the early '80s to really being a completely dominant player? You were a contender and then you became completely dominant, say, by 1981. How did you do that and what can you teach us about that process?

Well, I didn't graduate from high school, so I'm having a hard time understanding your question. I'm just kidding. I left my country before I was able to graduate. No, I think what happened was kind of a seminal moment. I was friends with Nancy Lieberman, who is a basketball player, Hall of Famer. And that spring she traveled with me and I had a bad spring. I lost semifinals at the French Open. I lost semifinals both lead-up tournaments to Wimbledon and at Wimbledon. And I always said I would play till I'm 30 and then see. And she said, you know, your time's running out and you could work a lot harder. I'm like, what are you talking about? I thought I worked pretty hard, but I didn't have a coach for 6 years after I defected. My dad was my coach. Now I didn't have a coach. I thought I worked hard enough, but then she introduced me to running suicides on the basketball court.

Why did she register with you in a way earlier people hadn't?

Athlete. Athlete. Fellow athlete. Very, very, I mean, very capable athlete. And she just said, you know, you're wasting your time. You have so much more talent than what you're putting out there. I just didn't know any better. And so we started training that summer. Then I got a new, a guy who was also a nutritionist, and he helped me tailor my diet. It wasn't to lose weight, but just to have better quality food coming in. And, uh, because I've weighed the same since about '77, 147 pounds. And, and so I didn't lose any weight, but I put on some muscle and, uh, lost some body fat. And most of all, got a coach. Dr. Renee Richards started coaching me. I was doing it on my own, and everybody that lived here, or other players, they would have a coach in their hometown. Chris Evert had her father, did not travel, but when she goes home, she would have a coach. I would go home and I was alone. I was, uh, in fact, just last week in Indian Wells, I saw a guy that I used to practice with every day. And when I was practicing in Dallas, I did not have a coach. So it just didn't occur to me to get a full-time coach. And Renee, just by accident, we started practicing together, uh, at the US Open.

And building the team, it's sometimes been called Team Navratilova. Did you do this self-consciously or it's just something that evolved bit by bit? Each piece seemed to work.

Totally.

And then at the end, did you realize what you had done or what was the process ex post of looking back and reconstructing?

Well, I just wanted to leave no stone unturned really. So the coach obviously was technique and tactics and the physical part was training, working very hard. I'll give you my typical day in a minute. And then the eating was so that I could train hard and not get injured. So it all came together. And the typical day then when I really was humming was 4 hours of tennis, like 10 to 2, 2 hours of drills and maybe 2 hours of sets. Then I would do some running drills on the court for 15-20 minutes, sprints that if I did them now, I wouldn't be able to walk the next day, you know, 15 to 30-second sprinting drills. And then we would eat lunch, and I would go either play basketball full court, 2-on-2 for an hour and a half, or little man, big man, it's 2-on-1. I don't know, those people that play basketball, you just run.

Which were you?

Just run. Well, it switches. Whoever has the ball is the little man. Um, no, whoever has the ball is one against two, and then you play little man, the person plays defense, and then the, the big man plays center. So it's not 2-on-1, it's one against one, and then one And then whoever gets the ball goes the other way. So it's run, run, run. And then I would lift weights and have dinner either before lifting weights or after. So it was full day of training.

What about 9 AM to 10 AM?

That was breakfast. Yeah. And if I didn't play basketball, we'd go on the track and run some days 10 100-meter sprints or 20 60-yard sprints. I would do 4 quarters. That was my least favorite. Yeah, it was— I trained hard. I worked harder than I needed to, I think. But it worked.

So you've done other things in life. You've been very interested in woodworking. I've read that you learned Swahili. You have a pilot's license. You wrote 3 detective novels, played on a hockey team. You're now, I think, having a role in raising 2 children. Have you used the training regime for all of those? Do you now think about getting things done this way?

Well, the positive attitude helps with tennis. You have to be very positive and have a very short memory. Long memory for the good stuff and short memory for the bad stuff. So because you have to play a point, then, you know, in 20 seconds you got to get ready for the next point. So you got to analyze what happened and try to do it better, etc. But raising two kids is challenging. I must say, whatever training I've done is not enough.

Billie Jean King once suggested that you use writing in a journal every day to help you accomplish your goals. How does that work for you and what is it you do and why do you think it works?

Well, it worked because it really kind of centers you. It narrows it down. Whatever long-term goal you have, it becomes more real and more current because it narrows it down in that what do you need to do today and did you accomplish that goal? So you really, you know, you have a big goal and then you break it into smaller goals, into smaller goals until you get into, okay, what do I do today? To get to that goal. And then you keep track. It's easier to keep track. It's always good to keep track, whether you're playing points, keeping track that way, or just measure your progress or maybe regress some days. And I would rate myself on a physical level, emotional, and mental, you know, how I did today on a scale of 1 to 10. And some days were 10, some days were 7, some days were 3s. Try to be honest with yourself. Be honest, but also be nice to yourself. And you see that with most champions, they're perfectionists, and you beat yourself up too much. And so I preach and I try to strive for excellence rather than perfection, because perfection just— if you strive for excellence, perfection may happen, but just it's good enough to be excellent. Yeah, that's good enough. You don't need to be perfect because perfection is kind of just happens by accident.

John McEnroe once reported that Bjorn Borg said, that to him, I quote, "Number one is the only thing that matters." That doesn't seem to quite be your attitude, but how do you think of your motivation in terms of the goal?

Well, I wanted to be number one. I've said that when I was 20 years old. I said since I was 8 or 9 years old, I wanted to win Wimbledon. But at that point, you don't know how big the world is and what that all means. But that was the goal. And I just put it out on the line. And what was the question?

Bjorn Borg saying number one is the only thing that matters. He may have been exaggerating himself, but Do you ever feel you have that attitude that anything short of number one is a kind of failure?

Not at all, not at all. The only failure is to not try. So for me, it was always giving my best, whatever it was that I was doing, whether it was riding the bicycle around my garden and trying to go as fast as I can and timing myself. I got my first watch, was a stopwatch, when I was in third grade. So I was always timing myself and I would try to go faster. So I would kind of pack up, you know, do a little turns so I could make the turn faster, so I could go faster, 3 times around. Competing with myself, my competition was always with myself. I always said I would rather play well and lose than play lousy and win, because if I play lousy and won, that just meant my opponent was really lousy. So I'd rather be pushed, yeah, and so that's why I really enjoy the competition against the best players, because that's when you have to put it on the line and play your best. Anything less won't be good enough. The number one kind of happened. But, and that's another line that I use, um, you know, everybody has that goal. I mean, most players that play on the tour, they want to be number one, they want to win a major, but only one, one person can be number one. So does that make everybody else a failure? No, they're trying their hardest. And, uh, if you try your best and the best that you can do, which we have the ranking, obviously that's very— it doesn't lie. This is where exactly where you stand. You could be 45 in the world or 5 in the world or number one. If you try your best and your best ranking ever was number 10, then that's, you know, the other 9 players were better. But if the other 9 people weren't alive, you'd be number 1. So, but you're still the same tennis player, right? You're not any better. So for me, the competition was always with myself.

Pam Shriver once said that she thought her doubles partnership with you worked so well precisely because the two of you had this creative interchange, but you didn't spend much time together off the court, so you saved that back and forth for when you were playing together. Does that make sense to you?

Well, we talked a lot, yes. We had to catch up on everything while we were playing the matches. Nowadays they all talk strategy. We're like, okay, I serve wide, but you know, what do you want, what do you want to do for dinner? Or where did you go last time? And where is your coach sitting? And we were visiting. Can you believe that guy over there? You know, he's, he's He's not even watching us, whatever. We were just talking, we were just talking smack and we had fun, we had fun.

A few questions about women's tennis in particular. If you think about Steffi Graf, Sabatini, Monica Seles, Hingis, yourself, do women in tennis develop more quickly in terms of age, and if so, why is that the case?

Well, physically, yeah, I mean women mature earlier, I think emotionally and physically, but most of all physically. Nowadays, again, the game has gotten so much more physical, it's a little more tricky for people to play really great tennis at 14 or 15. And in the women's game, we instituted an age eligibility rule. So you don't, you cannot play a full, full-time, uh, you cannot play as many tournaments as you want until you're 18. There's a limit to, to, to how many tournaments you can play at 14 and 15, et cetera. It goes up. And the biggest reason for that was we had too many injuries and too many people getting burned out because the parents had these big eyes for their kids and they're pulling kids out of school too soon and, and, and, you know, doing training and and burning out physically or emotionally before they even get on the tour. Or if they get on the tour, then the injuries come. Too many, too many people pulling out. But I think some of it is also they don't make them like they used to. Yeah, I mean, in the old days, seriously, I would come to a tournament and you saw a default, there was a default, somebody would default. I'm like, oh my God, is she okay? Is she in the hospital? It was unusual for people to pull out. I think Chris pulled out of like 3 events ever. Same with me. 3 tournaments that I pulled out of.

And you played a lot.

And I played a lot of tournaments, a lot of matches. I mean, I, I don't know how many singles I won, but I think I played something like 1,700 singles matches and like 1,000, I don't know, 1,100 doubles matches.

So what accounts for that change? Why are we moderns weaker, uh, more complacent, however you might describe it? I mean, what's happened to—

well, things are easier, there's no doubt, but also they're lasting longer because things are easier and better. The trainers— you have trainers now. When, when I I came on the tour, I pulled a stomach muscle the very first tournament I played, and it took 2 months before I got well again. '75, we got a trainer for the first time on the tour, 1975, and I thought, oh, you get a massage. No, no, no, it's a trainer. They actually like tape your ankles and stuff. We were really clueless, we didn't know. So nowadays the care is much better, and yeah, the players last longer because of that. But we played on clay, or grass, indoors on soft carpet with wooden rackets, with gut, animal gut, with the strings. Now they play on hard courts most of the time with metal rackets, with nylon strings. So the body does not absorb that vibration from the racket. They use their wrists a lot more. So you have a lot more injuries on the upper body. And then playing on hard courts, you see them slide. I'm like, I still don't know how they do that. They're sliding on hard courts. Like, ah, it's just, you know, there'll be a lot more hip replacements in the future because of that. And, uh, and I think it's just the game is more physical, so they, they get more beat up. Everybody's hitting the ball harder because of the rackets, etc.

So some sports, it seems fairly easy to compare the past and the present. So the 100-meter dash, how long did it take? You know, there's a very definite timing. If you're thinking about tennis players, the best of today, the best of an earlier age, you know, Althea Gibson or Ivonne Gulagong, whoever it is you have in mind. Do you think it's even a meaningful comparison, or do you have some definite view like, we were better, you know, than they'll ever be, or they, you know, they would take every set from us? How do you think about that?

Well, me from 1990 would have beaten me from 1980, would have beaten me from 1973, because you get better as you play. And I would have beaten Althea Gibson, but then if I had been born in Althea Gibson's time and Althea Gibson was born 20 years later, she would be beating me because it's the evolution of the sport. And nowadays, especially with the rackets being so different, you can't really compare. But if Evonne Goolagong was born now, she would still be winning majors. Same with the guys. I mean, you're a product of your culture and of your time. You know, if Usain Bolt was born in 1930, I'm pretty sure he would not be running 9.2, whatever he's running, 100 meters. You know, just wasn't going to happen with those shoes on those tracks. It's a different ballgame.

If you think about how men and women are divided in tennis, the current arrangement has a lot of advantages, but it could be the case— I'm no expert in this area— but that there are more than two genders. And say in track and field, you have Caster Semenya, where people, you know, argue, should she be allowed to compete in women's track and field? There's a lot of measurement that goes on. Arguably, it's somewhat intrusive. Or just distasteful. And how should we think about this problem and structure the rules going forward to have the best available arrangement?

You just try to take it case by case and make it as fair as possible for everybody involved. I'm not a doctor, so I can't really— it's hard to pin that one, but you just try to make it fair. And there's not any particular rule, because if you go by that, then, you know, some guy may have a lot more testosterone than another guy, and then what, is he banned because he has too much? You know, where do you put the limits? Who decides where the limits are? So you just like take it case by case and try to be as fair as— make it a level playing field. I mean, with me they were saying I have an advantage because I'm gay. It's like somehow, you know, a gay player hits the ball better than a straight player. I don't know, still trying to figure that one out.

Issues of pay equity. As you know, Australian, US, French Open, Wimbledon, Indian Wells, Miami male and female prizes are the same at the top. At many other tournaments, male winners tend to receive quite a bit more than female winners. Is this, in your view, fair? Should it be changed? And if so, how should we change it?

Well, we are changing it a little bit at a time, but still those tournaments are separate. So the men still— most corporations run by men, owned by men, and, uh, and they, they're much more likely to give the money to the men than the women, uh, whether it's a bank or a whatever the sponsor is, men have a much easier time getting the sponsorship money and don't have to prove it. The women have to prove themselves, which is why most of the sponsors that have been involved in women's sport, women's tennis, have stayed around a lot longer because we have to make sure that the money is judged correct, that economically it makes sense. I mean, the NFL, how many false starts were there for the NFL, NBA, all of that? You have one false start in the women's league and it's, "Oh, the women can't make it," but the guys, they keep throwing money at them. And so it is still in different cultures. I mean, we still have tournaments in places where women can't walk without a man, male escort. So times have changed, but not enough. But it's certainly going in the right direction. But the pay inequity is still there.

Male and female tennis announcers, should they be paid the same?

Yeah, I'm trending on Twitter today. My claim to fame. Yeah, you try to pay people equal amount for equal work, equal contribution, and equal level of expertise. Championship quality you want to assign to that. But so there's this hoo-ha right now about me not getting— me getting a lot less paid for the same work, uh, that as John McEnroe at the, uh, at Wimbledon, which the BBC is a publicly owned corporation, but they would not divulge what people are making. Finally, they had to last year say how much people are making. Only people are making £150,000 a year or more. Anybody less than that, you don't have to divulge. So a lot of the part-time people did not make the cut, but John McEnroe did make the cut. He gets at least £150,000 for Wimbledon while I was getting paid about £12,000-£13,000 for less work, less work, yes, but about maybe one-third. That's because I couldn't get any more. I wanted to work more, but we were getting all kinds of excuses why I couldn't get more. Or other women weren't getting paid as much as the men. I knew I was getting paid less, but I didn't know how much less. And then when I found out, when this report was made public, it's like, okay, now this is not just, you know, percentage, this is a multiplier. There's a program that just went out tonight, actually, it's kind of the 60 Minutes in the UK called Panorama. And I did an interview there. So now there's a big to-do about it. And it's not between me and McEnroe. It's not about that. It's about women getting paid a lot less than men for a similar job. So, you know, maybe it's because you get paid by the word, because I try to keep my answers really succinct. So— Just saying.

Here's something Billie Jean King once said, and I'm not sure, but I think she was referring to both men's and women's tennis. Quote, "I think tennis is a sexy sport, and that is good." The players are young with excellent bodies clothed in relatively little. It offers the healthiest, most appealing presentation of sex I can imagine. And we in sport must acknowledge that and use it to our advantage. True or false?

She said that?

It's in print.

Doesn't sound like Billie. Well, I never heard her say that. But it is a— well, it is a sexy sport, but I don't think it's because of the way we dress. It's just because we're really capable. Of hitting that tennis ball and doing things on the court that most people—

And it's a cognitive endeavor most of all, right?

And it also makes sense to play tennis in shorts or a shorter skirt rather than what Suzanne Longman used to have to put up with, with the long dresses, et cetera. I think the form follows function on the tennis clothing anyway. But there's nothing wrong with being sexy as long as it's not sexist.

You know, here's a question.

I mean, I mean, guys, guys get paid more if they're good looking. They get more endorsements. Women, same thing. But then it becomes too disparate. Then, then that's when it becomes a problem, when you have to, when you have to be sexy in order to be paid the same. Ah, the guy doesn't have to be sexy, right? I mean, look at the TV people, right?

Here's a question from a reader. And I quote, "In her autobiography, Martina observed that US women such as Chris Evert had to conform to far more rigid gender stereotypes than Czech women like she did. Does Martina still believe that US gender stereotypes are a lot more constricting and universally imposed in America today than in, say, Central Europe?" Oh, that's a good question, but I don't know.

I said that a long time ago. That biography came out 30 years ago, so I really don't remember what all I said. Once in a while I sign it and I look inside, I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I said that. This is way too personal. But the one thing growing up in a communist country, perhaps the only good thing about it, was that it was okay to be a female athlete. Women were, or anything really, there were women doctors, professors, very common. Not in the political scene, there was always guys for some reason. But every other field, women were just as encouraged to go into that field as men. There was no, oh, well, you want to study, be an electrician, you have to be a man. No. Or a professor, whatever. It all worked. So when somebody said doctor, you didn't assume it was a man, whereas it was an assumption here. I still make the mistake myself. And so being an athlete, I was encouraged to be an athlete and to do the best. It wasn't like I had to be begging to be able to play tennis because, you know, it's only for boys. So same with the clothing. Maybe we weren't dressing so sexy because there just wasn't anything sexy to be bought there. Uh, you know, you just kind of went to the store and, and see what was available. But I think Chris was just conforming, not because of any preconceived ideas, but she came from a good Catholic family and she wanted to please her parents. So it was more that than, than I think any American culture. It was actually more cultural within, within the family, how you grew up.

At the top level, why has U.S. men's tennis collapsed?

I don't think it's collapsed. I think we have 10—

but the last Grand Slam winner Who is it? Is it Andy Roddick? I don't know, a long time ago.

I think it's Andy. Uh, well, we had a few in the finals, but, uh, right now there's new guys coming up. Opelka, who is like 6'10", some— he's huge and huge serve and a good big talent. Taylor Fritz had a good tournament, uh, last week in Indian Wells. I actually used to play against his mother, Kathy May. Uh, I think, uh, Jack Sock, I mean, he made the— he made the Masters. I mean, on a given day they can beat anybody, but to win a major, that takes It takes a lot, but it always goes in ebbs and flows and fluctuations. But I think the biggest thing is that the rest of the world caught up. It's not that we're bad, it's the rest of the world is better. It's a lot more international. Tennis is a lot more global. And the tennis ball doesn't know where you're from, does it?

The NBA, the NFL, and Major League Baseball, they've all been revolutionized by analytics and statistics. But tennis so far, not that much, as far as I can tell. You may know better. Is this coming to tennis? And if so, what kind of effect is it likely to have?

No, it's, it's, it's there now. The, the knowledge is there. I think it's still, people are figuring out how to, how to use it to their advantage, but they have all kinds of, uh, statistics now with the Hawkeye. When you play matches, they even have cameras on practice courts. You can measure how many revolutions per, per shot, where it landed, how many mistakes you made. It, it, it can get too much, but you can certainly use it to your advantage to see where the weaknesses are. It's very obvious where the strengths are. The opponents, etc., I think would help in making game plans and all that. But ultimately, you know, you can analyze all you want, but ultimately you just gotta hit the damn ball and hit it well.

Are the rules of tennis flawed in some way? Are games too long, or competitions too long or too short? Is there too much or too little regulation of string and racket technology? Would you change the scoring system? Can you improve on what we have?

That's a lot of questions.

Other than the pay.

I, yeah, one question at a time, please. Regulations, absolutely. The rackets have taken over the sport and, and the strings. The strings, when you, uh, when you put them on a microscope, they like have these little teeth so they bite the ball, so you can put a lot more spin on the ball, which makes it a lot easier to hit it. The rackets, the sweet spot used to be about this big, now it's like this big. As long as you don't hit the frame, you're good to go. So it's very forgiving, and so everybody hits a much better ball., and it's more difficult to come to the net because, because it's easier to dip the ball with the spin, et cetera. So the racket manufacturers have really changed the sport too much in, uh, in, in my mind. You don't see as much variety because of the, of the equipment really favoring the, the baselines or the ground strokes over volleys.

And top players today, they don't have to be as smart as in your time?

Uh, it's, well, I don't know.

I haven't measured, but it sounds like more strength oriented.

Yes, it is.

Less, less cognitive.

Yeah. It's, it can be, you can, you can, uh, you can get by with less, uh, sort of lower tennis IQ, you know. If you can power past people, you don't have to hit around them, you go through them. Yeah, the rackets are more forgiving. It's like having much more horsepower, you know, you just stand on the gas and off you go. So technique is not as prevalent, and tactics, although now you find different parts of the court because of the strings, also because of the rackets, which makes it different. So it's just different. It's not necessarily better or worse, but I think less variety, and that's what I'm missing.

But yeah, mixed doubles also seems less popular, right? And is that another example of declining interest in IQ?

Well, I think there's so much more money in singles and so much interest in singles, fewer players play singles and doubles also because, you know, you win one major and your, your life is made. Uh, so you don't, uh, concentrate so much on, uh, you don't want to make anything, um, hamper that possibility. So people play less. I played singles, doubles, and mixed a whole bunch of times. In fact, I probably played too much in my 30s. I should have played less, but I like— I didn't know any better, and I liked playing mixed. Maybe that's one of my other big accomplishments. I won the triple in the US Open. I was 31. I won singles, doubles, and mixed. One year at Wimbledon, '86, it rained so much that I only played 2 matches in the first week because it rained, 2 singles. And then I played 17 matches the second week because I got to the finals of all 3. So I played 2 or 3 matches every single day. And then the last one, I look— we lost the doubles. Pam and I lost the doubles. We hadn't lost a match in 2 years. We lost the finals. I won the singles. And then Sunday, up after winning the singles and winning and losing doubles final, I played 3. We were in the quarterfinals on the mixed doubles on Sunday. I was on the court for 6 hours because, uh, there was no tiebreak in the 3rd set. I won the first match in 3 sets. Then we played again semifinals in 3 sets. 20— I think it was 23-21 in the 3rd. And then the final was 3 sets as well. So yeah, I was tired that day. That's why people don't play, because it just takes too much energy. The game is more physical and they don't want to hamper anything. But I like playing tennis so much that I couldn't see not playing doubles.

If somehow tennis didn't exist or you couldn't have been a tennis player but ended up in this country at a young enough age, what do you think would have been your career?

Well, if sports Anything else but tennis?

It can be hockey, it can be woodworking.

I play hockey, woodworking, no, that would not have been, no, I don't think that would have made that much money, but I did woodworking, I still have 10 fingers, see, I did pretty well, made a couple tables. I think I wanted to be an architect or a builder, I think that's why I got into woodworking, wanted to create, and if it was a sport, either a skier or a Race car driver. I like speed.

If you look back on your whole career, your whole life, what question do you most frequently ask yourself that you would be willing to share with us?

Well, recently, okay, I've been married now for 3 years, been with Julia almost 10 years, and her 2 daughters are 16 and 12. And the question I ask myself most often these days is What can I say to them so that they will actually put the dishes in the dishwasher rather than just leave them in the sink? I have not solved that riddle. I don't know. It's, you know, take away the iPhone. No, that doesn't work. Driving privileges. No, I don't know. I don't. I've run out. Being nice, you know, give money. I did that too. I paid them. That didn't work either. Anybody? Any suggestions? I mean, and the dishwasher is here and the sink is here. It's not like it's a long trip, you know. Just, I mean, I come from a home where we didn't have hot water until I was about 12 years old. We had to heat up the water to wash the dishes and we had to heat up the big thing to take a bath once a week. You know, that's all you had. We had to heat up the water to wash the dishes and my mom washed the dishes and I dried them every night.

Some questions about gay rights. How can we incentivize other celebrities, athletes to come out of the closet more? Because there's been a huge positive external benefit from what you've done. Many, many people's lives are much better off and freer and have more dignity. But it seems highly likely there are many more gay people in sports who are unwilling to come out of the closet even now.

Didn't you see the Olympics? Adam Rippon.

The Olympics? But Major League Sports? No, but that's—

it depends on what sport you're in. Because it's almost like if you're a figure skater, you have to prove that you're straight if you're a man. And if you're a softball player as a woman, you have to prove that you're straight. It, it's, it's, it depends on the sport, but it's difficult in team sports because if the coach is in any shape homophobic, uh, you don't get to play, you don't get to compete. There was a, there was a— forget her name now, she played for Penn State— coach. Can anybody can help me? She was a coach there, Renee Portland. She openly said, I will not allow a lesbian on my team. This is back in the '80s, and would proudly proclaim to her parents that there are no lesbians on the team when she was recruiting her players. So do you come out? You don't get to play. So, you know, it's, it's difficult in team sports or professional sports. So same thing, you would get blackballed by the league if you do the unpopular thing. It's okay now, it's It's better.

Say you're starting in the NBA, you're a good player, you have a proven record. Very few people in that position have come out. Do you think it's about endorsements or commercial factors or fandom?

You know, it's—

because they're not going to bench you the minute after you say it.

It's privacy. It's your teammates. Some may know, some may not. I mean, I know, you know, professional team sports, there's definitely a lot of players out there that their teammates know, but it's still, it's still a taboo and it's uncomfortable, you know, and it attracts attention in a way that these macho sports don't want. Even on the tennis tour, I was lucky that I could come out because I knew I could still play tennis no matter what happened in endorsements. I didn't care. I lost a lot of money, but I just wanted to play tennis and be true to myself. So I knew I could still play no matter what. The ranking is this, you get to play. But on team sports, it's tricky. So I get that, that it's difficult, especially for men. But on the men's tour, the guys are so far in the closet, I don't even know who they are. It's disappointing because the women are much more brave on that front. I don't know why, actually. I don't know why.

You were born in Czechoslovakia, what's now the Czech Republic. Do you follow Czech politics still at all?

Yes, unfortunately.

Why do you think something seems to have gone wrong? Do you think it's something about the communist heritage of what is now Czech Republic that prevents it from being this perfect fit into the European Union, or what's your diagnosis?

No, I mean, it's, it's a great country to live in, but the politics have gone slightly downhill. And I think people have a short memory and they're kind of, too many people still pining for the good old communist days as if there was anything good about it. And a former communist, Zeman, was reelected president again, or prime minister, whatever he is now. And it's frustrating, but, you know, it's still a great place to be and a democratic country. And I think overall it's done really well. But it's frustrating to me to see the right-wing politics winning so much of these days and the dictators— or not dictators, but authoritarians winning the elections.

And how did you think about the split with Slovakia when that came?

I thought, I think they would rather take it back if they could, but it was peaceful. It was done nicely. Nobody died. There was no violence at all. It was just people voted for it and that was that. You know, it's a shame, but that's what happened.

And say Czech writers, Milan Kundera or Hásek, do you still read them, identify with them, follow them, or are you just fully in an American life but with a Czech background?

I'm both. I feel very much at home here. I'm a total American, but I still feel at home when I go to Czech Republic. My sister lives there. You know, it's where I grew up. The town is the same. There's still no traffic lights there. You know, it hasn't changed. And so I feel very, very much at home at both places. I must say, if Czechs play Americans in hockey, I root for the Czechs. Ashamed to say that, but maybe it's still also kind of rooting for the underdog, the smaller country, you know. I mean, we're a country of, I think, like 10-12 million people.

There's Yvonne Lendl, Martina Hingis's mother, yourself, all from Czech Republic. Why so much tennis talent from your country?

That was about the only sport we could play there. No, I mean, for me it was the possibility, the availability of playing, because we had a club in my hometown and I had the opportunity and I had good coaching and it was a sport that I loved. Uh, tennis, tennis, uh, Ivan Lendl was from a tennis family, uh, Martina, tennis family, uh, it was, uh, kind of passed generation to generation. And also the club scene is very healthy. Czechs are pretty athletic anyway and active, but most of all the clubs are set up where you, you, you walk to the club in, in your hometown, you know, you It's very safe, so you walk and you can stay there all day on the weekend, or after school you go straight to tennis and play, and then you come home before dark. And, you know, it's just a nice scene. It's cheap, so you don't have to be wealthy to make it. You have good coaching and people to play with. So, you know, I played against all the people, whatever my level was. I played against those people. It wasn't, oh, I only played against girls my age. I played whoever I could compete against. And that breeds, I think, good players.

In your memoir, you wrote the following, and I quote, "Charlottesville reminded me of my part of Czechoslovakia," unquote. Please explain.

You mean last summer, Charlottesville?

No, no.

Oh, living in Charlottesville.

Living in Charlottesville.

Well, it's the Blue Ridge Mountains. It's the same climate and same countryside, very similar to where I grew up. And comfortable.

Emotionally, what was it like to regain your Czech citizenship?

I waited for that. I don't know why I waited. You had to get so much paperwork done, and I finally get it organized, and I send it, and I don't get anything back. And I finally called. What happened? They didn't get the paperwork. I'm like, oh, I have to start over again. So it's like 2 years later I finally got to it, and it happened that I got it after Obama became president, not under George W. Bush. And people were saying I did it on purpose because I didn't want to be an American anymore because of George W. Bush. Had nothing to do with it. I just wasn't organized enough to get all the paperwork done. So I have two passports. Yeah. And I, you know, it's nice to feel like you belong to both countries because when I defected, the reason I defected, because you couldn't get visa unless the government allowed you to get visa. So they wouldn't let me play the US Open. So I defected. And then for 6 years I was stateless. I had a thing that said re-entry permit. Looked like a passport, but it says re-entry permit. And I had to get visa every single place I went. And when you're filling out the paperwork, says country of citizenship, I had to put stateless. Finally in '81 when I got my citizenship, USA. And the next, I got my passport, the next day I'm flying to Europe and they said, do you have a passport? I'm like, do I have a passport? I still remember that moment. I was so proud. And now I have two passports, so it's very cool.

What was your biggest shock when you came here as a defector?

Well, I came here in '73, right? And then I defected in '75. So when I first came here in '73— yes, well, I've seen American cars before in Germany, but still the size of American cars. And they're still astonished when you see an old Cadillac Eldorado. It's like, you know, 4 feet longer than an SUV. That's just huge. But what astonished me the most, I think, uh, was, uh, that there were Oranges, the first tournament I played was in Fort Lauderdale and there was oranges on the trees, you could just pick them off the tree. And growing up we had oranges like once a year for maybe 2 weeks for Christmas you had oranges. So it was like the most precious thing you could eat, it was more expensive than beef. And here you could just pick it off the tree and I picked up a coconut, took me about 3 hours to get inside it, but I ate the inside of a coconut. And the size of ham on a sandwich. Growing up again, you know, pork was very expensive, so you had bread and maybe one slice of ham. So I would eat around it, so I got a big chunk of ham on the last bite. And here you get a ham sandwich and it's like two pieces of bread and this much ham. I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. $2.50 for a ham sandwich. Still remember it. For me, that was astonishing. Grocery stores, astonishing.

What bugged you the most, the early years?

Bothered me the most?

Yeah.

Probably not being able to talk to my family.

But about this country, obviously you miss Trent's family, but about Nothing.

Then nothing. I mean, things were great. Let's see. Well, it was Watergate, which I'm like, what is this place? Watergate was the big thing, '73. I did not understand that. But politics seemed to be very reasonable. People are nice and welcoming. When I defected, I was welcomed with open arms in Texas. I had everything. So back then, nothing.

What was it like to go skiing with Donald Trump?

Well, his wife was a lot faster skier than he was. I knew Ivana before she even met Donald Trump because she's Czech and she was a friend of a good Czech friend of mine somewhere in New York back in the '70s. And yeah, I skied with them a couple times in Aspen and yeah, knew the family.

Play tennis with him ever?

No. No, I know. Have you seen— that is a classic photo of him hitting a forehand volley. Oh, it's a thing of beauty. Now, in some ways you wear those shorts.

Okay, in some ways you've been critical of the Trump presidency.

Some ways.

Some ways. If you think about structurally the How did America get into its current problems? What's your explanation?

Facebook, Cambridge Analytica, bots. I mean, it was a perfect storm, or horrible storm for Clinton. There's no doubt about that. Everything that could have gone wrong went wrong. Still, you thought somehow, you know, but again, we knew about the Electoral College. I think that system needs to be looked at. It's not working. If I lived in Hawaii, I would be really pissed because my vote doesn't count because by then the election's decided. It should really be one person, one vote, regardless of where you live. I don't know why geography makes a difference. I'm for state rights up to a point, because if you do something here, you're okay, and if you do the same thing here, you're a criminal. I just don't get that. How can it be so disparate, so different from state to state, particularly now with the legal marijuana, etc., or crossing state lines with liquor in your cars? Like, it just doesn't make sense. I'm not an authoritarian at all, obviously, but I think the federal government needs to be more responsible for what's going on in our country. There's too many things that are unfair in this country. It could be so much better. But how did it all happen? I think you see the statistics and you get frustrated because it doesn't make any sense for, for so many women still be to be voting that way. People just don't pay enough attention to facts. Yeah.

If I talk to a lot of Eastern European or communist émigrés, you know, Garry Kasparov, Masha Gessen, I get the sense that they view what's happening in America now through the lens of their history and a kind of history of fascism and authoritarianism. I was born in the United States. When I look at what's happening now, I tend to view it more as recreating a version of late 19th century politics where things are very partisan and wild and leaders make different kinds of irresponsible decisions or have strange rhetoric by, say, the standards of the '80s or the '90s. How convinced are you that the kind of Eastern European authoritarian lens is the right way to think about what's happening in America today?

Well, because that's how Trump got elected. Yeah, I mean, it is very, very similar to that. I still get I don't understand this fear. You know, we're supposed to be land of the free. Yes, brave. But fear is what drives people to make these decisions. And I had therapy a long time ago, and the therapist said, you don't ever make decisions based on fear because you make wrong decisions. But that's what people are— that's how people are voting, based on fear so much. And I don't know what we're afraid of because nothing bad has really happened in this country since the Civil War. You really think about it, Pearl Harbor, yes, horrible, awful, but compare that to what went on in, well, China, communist countries, whatever. Of course, all the wars in Europe, World War I, World War II, Korean War. Compare that to that and there's no comparison. We have not really been touched yet. We're so scared here. And of what? I don't understand that. It's like this manufactured fear. And then people are just blind and they don't, they make these decisions on emotions rather than rational thinking.

What's your ideal trip to Africa? Describe that for us and why it appeals to you.

Well, I spent a lot of time in Kenya and also been in Tanzania, Ngorongoro Crater, and have traveled all around Kenya. So yeah, just anywhere. Just drive, just take a car and drive. And that's actually why I learned to fly, because it's— well, maybe not drive, it's safer to fly in Kenya than to drive. The roads are pretty bad, but yeah, it's magic. Anybody that wants to go to Africa, do it. Don't think about it. It's amazing. The people are fantastic and the animals, it's just magic.

Two final questions. First—

We're going back in time.

Yeah. What can you share with us about what you're planning on doing next with your energy your organizational, managerial, and educational abilities? Plus your athleticism.

Well, maybe get a GED. I'm helping my kids with their homework. I think I could pass, but I don't know. Seriously, I do a lot of speaking. I do speeches around the world on women's issues, LGBT, still being an activist. I'm gonna march on Saturday in Miami. I can't come to Washington, but I'll be marching in Miami. Actually, we live about 10 minutes from Parkland, so it really hit home. As my daughter was— her friends were wondering whether their friends were impacted. Of course, everybody was impacted, but if people got hurt. So yeah, I think just keep being an activist, keep speaking out for the right things. I've always been a proponent for the little guy, you know, always was defending the little kid against the bullies. And so I'll keep doing that because that's just who I am, can't help it.

And final question before we get to audience Q&A: to the extent you are still optimistic about the United States—

Absolutely.

What is it that most makes you optimistic?

Our institutions, but I think the people are waking up. I think we kind of slid into complacency and being comfortable, almost lazy. It's like nothing bad is gonna happen, but little by little, you know, that frog is gonna get boiled in that water. And I think a lot of people are starting to jump out of the water now. So I think people are waking up and getting involved, and most of all, the young ones. And I think, again, maybe Parkland may be the tipping point in a— for a horrible reason, but in a good way now— that the young kids are realizing that we don't want the old people to decide what our lives will look like. 20 years from now or 30 years from now, or what they look like now, actually. So I think I'm optimistic because of the young ones.

Martina, thank you very much.

Tyler, you need to drink more water. You're not hydrating at all. Yes. That's the athlete in me.

We will take questions at two mics. I will alternate. Please note, these are questions. We are here to hear from Martina. If you start making a speech, I will cut you off. And she, of course, has the option of not answering any questions she doesn't want to. Okay. So please.

I talked to the tennis team before I got here, so there are other questions.

Hi, Martina.

Hello.

Yes, question.

I just want to say it's an honor to meet you and listen to your speech. You're awesome.

Thank you.

Thank you, George Mason, for having us. Question going back to the big news today and recently about the pay gap in Wimbledon. My thought, and I guess my question to you is moving forward this year and from now on, will you not do any commentary either with BBC or here in the United States unless it's guaranteed that the pay gap between you and someone like John McEnroe will be completely decreased? Well, it's again, it's not about me and John McEnroe. It's about what women should be getting paid. Compared to men. I think transparency is the, is the biggest reason why we don't have equal pay, or closer to it, certainly, because people don't know what anybody else is making. I said I would work for BBC for free. That's the only game in town. I really wanted to work. I wanted to, uh, speak to people in England. Wimbledon is, has been always broadcast by BBC ever since there was TV. It's always been BBC, so it's the only game in town. And when they tell you this is all there is, so you take it. I would probably work rather for free than get paid one-tenth, quite frankly, because I really want to— it's not about the money, it's about what's fair. And I don't have that problem with Tennis Channel. I get, you know, I don't have a problem there. I think they're very fair. Same with BT Sport. I also do some work with them. I haven't quite frankly known that it was this disparate, and I think it's across the board for the other athletes, whether it's Lindsay Davenport compared to what Andy Roddick's making, or Tracy Austin compared to Tim Henman, or whatever, however you want to put it, the pay gap is huge, and it's a lot bigger than we even thought, and it needs to, it needs to stop. And maybe tennis will be another push forward in the right direction. So it's not about how much we're getting paid, but it's about getting paid fairly. Compared to other people.

Next question over here. Hi Martina, thanks so much for coming.

It's been a pleasure to hear your comments.

I have a very practical question and it deals with nutrition and your feelings about nutrition.

And would you be able to reveal your diet? Ah, well, it's interesting because I've— I don't even want to start. Yes, I'll tell you. Just the last 6 weeks I started this diet called Whole30 because I was too used to having a drink every night or two. My stomach got a little bit bigger and I've been eating less, but I still couldn't shake it. And I'm fit, I'm in good shape and everything, but I was just ticked off that, you know, but most of all I didn't want to get into a habit of drinking. And, but I always— I've been eating healthy since '81 when I really got into nutrition, but I still couldn't shake it. And so this Whole30 is no, no dairy, no alcohol, and no grains, which means no sugar. That's no sugar. Grains, grains is sugar. And I mostly did it just to see what I feel like, and I've had much better energy. I've also got out coffee, which I didn't need to. And yeah, so I've been much, much happier camper, and the weight came off. Without even looking at the scale, it just— my pants all of a sudden, like, oh, they're falling off. So I feel much, much better. So that's it. Mostly proteins and nuts, lots of nuts, avocados and eggs and lots of veggies.

Yeah. Next question.

No grains. Grain is sugar. Yeah. Just realize how much pasta is just a filler. It's not very—

yeah.

Anyway.

I have two totally disconnected questions.

Okay.

Quick ones though. I was just wondering what your opinion was of the Billie Jean King movie with Bobby Riggs? And my other question is, what was your favorite place to eat in Charlottesville?

Oh, I don't remember the Charlottesville question because that was 30, almost 40 years ago. So yeah, that's a while back. But the Bobby Riggs, the movie, I was not in the country because it was in '73. I had just had to leave to go back back to Czechoslovakia because my visa ran out. So I did not go to Houston, just read about it in the paper, and I never watched the film. I mean, the actual match. And I didn't— I was invited to these premieres during the— when they were starting them at Wimbledon and the US Open last year, but I just couldn't make it. I was working, whatever. And ironically, I finally said, okay, I'm gonna watch it on the plane back from Melbourne because that's when I catch on all my movies, catch up on the long flights.

Flights.

And guess who's on the flight? Billie Jean. She was sitting over there with her, with her girlfriend. And behind me, behind me is Venus Williams. And then John McEnroe was there as well, but I think he flew first. We were in business. I'm kidding. I don't know. I don't know, actually. Uh, but I didn't realize John was on the plane as well. And anyway, so I watched the movie. They took some liberties, but it was, it was, it was well done. Very well done. I thought Emma and, uh, Steve Carell were fantastic.

What's the best tennis movie, if I may interject? Your favorite?

Well, that was good. Yeah, I think this one probably would have been the best, and also it had a very much a social, uh, social message. So yeah, and I think the tennis was the best in this one from the tennis movies that I've seen.

Next question.

Um, I'm curious about some of the water.

Sure. What trends you've seen in, uh, in tennis, uh, double strategy over the last 10 years, where you see coming up, for example, it seems like players are clogging the middle a lot more now and kind of leaving open, uh, the shot up the line.

Well, uh, the biggest thing in doubles is cover the middle. So, uh, you know, people cover the line too much, and you may get passed once or twice down the line, but you will get 15 balls go through the middle. You can always blame it on your partner, right? That was your shot. But if it's down your line, everybody's embarrassed. Because it's my line. So people guard the line with their life and they leave the middle too open. In, in regular doubles, professional doubles, they're better at covering the middle, but it's more or less serve and volley. People are serving and staying back, uh, again because the rackets make it so much easier to hit those ground strokes. So you see longer rallies, some fun doubles, but, um, I, I'll go for the old style serve and volley. But, uh, yeah, serve and volley still works if you do it well enough.

Next question. I guess one justification for a different pay scale for men and women in the tournaments, in the tournaments, is the difference in games they play for finals. 3 games for women, 5 for the men. Could you comment on that?

3 out of 5 sets. Yes, they do that in every round. They've been doing that forever at Wimbledon, and then the other slams caught up. And some men's tournaments were 3 out of 5 finals, but the rest of it was 2 out of 3. Then they realized it just takes too much out of them. So all the tournaments now are 2 out of 3, except in the Grand Slams, and that's 3 out of 5. Women, they were holding that against us actually when we asked for equal prize money. They said, "Oh, but you only play 2 out of 3 and men play 3 out of 5." And we said, "Well, we'll play 3 out of 5." "Oh, no, no, no, we don't want you to do that." So there's that. So we offered. I think the men should play 2 out of 3, but that's, that's just me. That's another story. And, uh, also they found that, uh, until they slowed down the grass at Wimbledon, which was again the last tournament that finally gave us equal prize money, the ball was in play longer in the women's matches in 2 out of 3 set matches than the men's matches 3 out of 5. So, but you know, you don't get paid for quantity, you get paid for quality. And, uh, I think a lot of people, when they did— actually, they did studies Most people came to Wimbledon— they've, they've done, uh, questionnaires— and most people came to Wimbledon to watch men, but then when they were leaving, they actually enjoyed watching the women more than the men. Uh, so, uh, it depends on, on who you watch that day, whatever. But, uh, the whole point is that, uh, we contribute equally to the success of the tournament. We're willing to play 3 out of 5, but they don't want us to do that. It's silly. I think, again, the men should play 2 out of 3. And because both men and women play They should be paid the same, end of story. It's the right thing to do, by the way. And they were using that with the, with the McEnroe also, that he does longer matches, but he does women's matches. I wanted to do the women's final, but he's doing the women's final. And you don't, again, you don't get paid because you, you, you talk, you talk longer or whatever. And I'm willing to do men's matches, but they don't let me. So there's that. Oh, Tennis Channel, I've done a bunch of men's matches and it's a lot of fun.

Next question. This is another tennis question. I noticed a lot of the analysts will attribute a lot of thinking in the court when there's a shot that is a successful winner. Like he said, he said, well, instead of going down the line, he obviously went across court and thought very carefully about that shot. When often it seems to me they're just hitting the damn ball, as you say. So when you're out there playing, how much of it is the thought process as opposed to just hitting the damn ball?

Well, it's both, but you have to think very quickly because it happens in a split second, doesn't it? And I always said it's better to hit the wrong shot well than hit the right shot badly, because if you overthink it, at the end you may hit the right shot, but by then you're like, ah, yeah, maybe I should hit it over there.. So just go with your instinct and you play percentages. I mean, you see if it, you know, you have a strategy, if it works, you don't change it, and if you're losing, then you change it. So maybe you go down the line, down the line, down the line, finally they cover it, so now you go cross-court next time they cover it. So it's always cat and mouse with your opponent, so that's the fun part. But sometimes they, again, it's easy to overanalyze. So like I said, better to hit the wrong shot well than hit the right shot badly.

So next question.

And I think that sometimes they're just talking out of their ear.

Yeah.

Hi, thank you for being here today. Uh, I watched you when I was a kid and a teenager. Watching you play was just a huge thrill, so thank you.

I appreciate it.

Um, I was going to ask a tennis question, but I'll switch it.

Gay rights—

there's been obviously enormous progress, uh, and sometimes pulling backwards, and I, I wanted to hear what you thought about, you know, in these times, what you think are the real battlegrounds that people should be fighting now. Yeah, I mean, states' rights. There have been— Michelangelo Signorile, who's a gay activist and a TV and radio personality, actually wrote a book about it. He thought once we got the right to marry, everybody was celebrating. He says, just watch, there's gonna be so much backlash and so many state laws are gonna come up where they will try to roll back take what we had just won. And that's exactly what's been happening. So you just be alert and pay attention to what's going on in your state, in your, in your county, in your district, whatever. And, uh, and fight those, fight those battles, you know, one by one. It's a shame that we still have to do that. That's where, again, I wish the federal government would step up and, and just make it against the law to make these regulations. But they're going the, the wrong way. They're going the other way on that. And certainly, uh, Trump has not, uh, not been helpful in that regard at all. So, and that's an understatement. So he held that rainbow flag during one of the rallies, but he didn't know it was upside down. And he says, "I'll be your biggest friend to the LGBT community." Yeah, if friends like that, you run the other way. So you just pay attention and be, and get involved on a local level, grassroots. Change comes from the grassroots, and it it should come from the top down. It's much quicker for it to happen from the top down, but these days we have to do it from the bottom up. So just stay vigilant and stay involved.

Next question.

And vote.

Thank you.

Vote, vote, vote.

My question is about basketball.

Uh-huh.

And I met you and Nancy Lieberman at Old Dominion University. Oh, did you? Up in the clubhouse level at a basketball game one time. It was a thrill to meet you all then. But did you play basketball in Czechoslovakia? And when you came to the United States, and I'm thinking—

I did not.

Okay, you did not. And so did you start when you met Nancy?

Yes, Nancy taught me how to do a layup. Yes, I started from scratch.

And what did you like about it? What was it What did it do for you and for tennis?

Well, fitness, obviously it's a very similar movement and just being on a team rather than by yourself. And it was completely different sport. I also sprained my ankle a few times playing basketball, but the pluses were outweighing the possibility of minuses of getting hurt and just loved the competition and, you know, 2-on-2 or 3-on-3 full court. That was my favorite. You just run and play and shoot and go the other way. Then the combination of finesse, and also I'm a kind of a bit of a mutt in that I shoot better— I shoot lefty, but I do better layup right-handed because it's like a toss on the serve. And I dribble better with my right hand, but— and I move better to my right, but I shoot left. So I was confusing for people. And because I was in good shape, I ran a lot, so they wanted me on my team because 2-on-2 or 3-on-3, it really pays off to being in good shape. But anyway, I love the sport. I think it's a great game.

Next question.

Okay, I have a quick question. I also watched you as a kid, and it's been great to listen to you today. And just one little side thing, I am a high school coach around here for tennis, and I am thinking after hearing your fitness regimen that I've been a little too light on my kids. So my question is really quick, and it's personal, so you may not want to answer it, but Your kids, do they play tennis? They don't love it. They play, but they don't love it, which is fine with me. You know, my wife wanted them to be tennis players, and I had somebody else work with them. I worked with them sometimes, but they don't love it, and that's okay. The older one likes to sing, the younger one likes to dance, so that's okay. The younger one's walking around in ballet slippers on her tiptoes, and she can't wait for her ballet practice. So, you know, that's when you know. When she asks me to play tennis twice a year, I'll play with her. But I don't push it. So yeah, but yeah, physical fitness, if you don't get to the ball, you can't hit it so well. And when you get tired, then you start making bad decisions. And that goes for real life too, which is why it's always important to take good care of yourself, period.

Next question.

Hi, I came out in 1976 and cried when you did. Thank you.

Um, thank you.

Second factor is, um, I'm a lifelong tennis fan. There's so much beauty in your serve and volley game. And I know that you're still playing some legends matches. And there's such a dearth of high-quality video of you playing that I wish that we could encourage someone to get out there and film you, even now. No, it's better to go through the archives and find the old ones. Because I still serve and volley, it just takes me a while longer. To get to the net. I saw one film and, and, you know, there's so much of your game you still have. Thank you. All the hands are still there, the eyes are still there, but the legs, yeah. But I don't practice it. I don't practice fast switch. The fast switch is gone because I just can't get myself fired up. But thank you. But yeah, it's a shame that they did not have so many, so many matches were, were not captured. Nowadays you can watch the the players play, just about every match they play, especially the top ones, it's always somewhere. Yeah, I mean, you know, I come from the days where the VHS didn't even exist. First time I saw myself actually hit a ball in a video, I think I was about 16 years old. So I remember looking at photos of other players and flipping it so I could see what they look like left-handed, so I could compare myself. Or I would mirror myself in the mirror so I could see what I look like right-handed and then compare it to the other players, because you have an image, and being a lefty, I didn't see that. So yeah, but yeah, there's some stuff on YouTube I think you can catch enough, but the quality of the video is not that good. And watching Wimbledon on TV on our black and white grainy, you know, screen that was this big, you only knew that the ball was there because the players moved that way. You couldn't actually see the ball. So now they have Hawkeye. I'm like, God, I wish I had that in my day. I would have won a few more matches and wouldn't have to color my hair because, you know, I lost— I made— I got a lot of gray hairs from those bad line calls. Nowadays there's no stress. There's no stress about line calls. It's fantastic.

Two more questions. Yes, Martina, thank you so much for being here.

Thanks.

What's the best advice anyone ever gave you about processing a poor performance after a match?

Uh, well, it's, uh, it's, it goes back to what happened, you know, just breaking down why I lost. Oh, was it just a bad day or did I not prepare properly? You know, something broke down technically. Was it tactics? Did I get tired? Did I not sleep well? So there is no bad, no, there is no great advice. It's just, uh, figuring out the problem and then and then figure a solution to it, always staying in the solution. And, and this is what we're going to work on so that it doesn't happen again. Just try to minimize those possibilities and, and keep, keep trying to get better. Yeah.

Last question: what is your opinion of PEDs, performance-enhancing drugs, as far as drug testing in tennis and other professional sports?

Well, I think they do a pretty good job in tennis. They even take blood sometimes., and then, and that they don't just wait after, after the player is out of the tournament. Uh, so they, they, they test pretty rigorously and they do out-of-competition testing as well. So you have to give them a schedule and it's, it's pretty, it's pretty intense. And I think for tennis, there is certainly, there are drugs that would be helpful, but it's such a complex sport that, uh, you know, a drug for, for example, for bicycling, it's all about endurance. It's very specific for tennis. It's much more than just that. But there are certainly drugs that would be helpful, and they're trying to do their best. But usually there are people that are still ahead of the game in that regard. But we try to do the best that we can. It can certainly be better. But if people really want to cheat, I think they can still do that, unfortunately. Martina, thank you very much. I'm very much against it. Yeah, obviously. Anyway, thank you. Mm.

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