Masaaki Suzuki on Interpreting Bach

Conversations with Tyler is produced by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, bridging the gap between academic ideas and real-world problems. Learn more at mercatus.org. For a full transcript of every conversation enhanced with helpful links, visit conversationswithtyler.com. Hello everyone and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler. Today I'm here in New York City with Masaaki Suzuki. Masaaki Suzuki is one of the greatest musical creators and producers of our time. He has recorded the entire set of Bach sacred cantatas, which in my collection amounts to, I think, 55 compact discs. He has recorded all of the secular cantatas. These are generally acknowledged to be the most important and best recordings of Bach's cantatas music ever. He is recording complete the organ music of Bach, so he also is a world-class organist, and is recording the complete harpsichord music of Bach, works that are commonly acknowledged to be in the top tier. So there's simply no one else I know of with this kind of record of production and quality and dedication and inspiration. He also has recorded a good deal of Mozart, Handel, many other 18th-century composers. He founded the Bach Collegium Japan in 1990. He teaches also as a professor at Yale University and does many other things as well. Masaaki Suzuki, welcome.

Thank you for invitation. It's a really great pleasure to come here.

I have many questions for you, but To start with Bach, St. John's Passion, 1724. If you had to explain to us in its most fundamental sense what was new in St. John's Passion that Bach did, what was the nature of that innovation?

Well, probably no one expected at the time to have that dramatic passion because the passion tradition is based on, derived from the reading the Bible in the liturgy, so it's probably story. Firstly, it was only thought as to Bible reading, but not simply reading, instead of that, a citation, so with some tones. So that was developed to the music, passion music, and by the time of Bach, that was already developed as a kind of oratorio passion. So that was actually the very dramatic experience already, but still Bach's time on the one week before the Easter, this the Passion of Johann Walther was still performed. That means really only F major chord from the beginning until the end, just to recite all the Bible texts and so on. That was still performed. So the very first Passion of Bach in the Leipzig time was the St. John Passion, which was a really shocking experience for everyone, I thought.

And in terms of choral work, what is new in that passion?

Choral work?

Yes.

Yes, that is a very— well, the structure consists of the choir and the azhi turba, so the mass of people shouting and so on. At the same time, the choir was also supposed to sing the choral, and so the multifunctions all the time, choral.

And do you think of St. John's Passion as a Christian work, or you conduct it as a Lutheran work, or drawing from a particular gospel? How do you think about that theologically?

From my point of view, St. John's Passion, we are doing this work as just a simple, general sacred music, sacred work, and we are performing this music not in the liturgy anymore, and we are doing in the concert. So there are plenty of ways to accept or receive or appreciate this music. So we are doing simply as the musicians, you know, to do our best, you know, to do the sound-wise and text-wise everything as good as possible. So I think the music can work afterwards to the individual calls, according to their situation or thoughts.

And your own background is Calvinist. Does that in any way shape how you approach the work?

Yeah, that is a really good question, actually. I was asked many times, why are you not Lutheran to do the Bach?

But there's almost a kind of predestination in the work. Jesus seems to know what's coming more than in other parts of the Bible.

Exactly, yes. So I actually, I'm very grateful to be a Calvinist because Calvin was probably the, well, I don't know, I'm no theologian, I'm no historian, but still according to my knowledge is Calvin was one of the first reformator who acknowledged the value of the activity and culture of this world, not only in that world in heaven. So it is very often said Calvin was not so, sympathy for the music or culture, whatever, but that is not true. And he has limited the congregational singing only for the psalm, but the other than church, outside of the church, he has helped some quite much cultural activity, for example, publish of the psalm thing or arrangements and so on. So that he was also helpful to inspire the, musical activity in this world. So I think in this way, we can evaluate all the musical or whatever cultural activity in this world, the other kind of— under the very big notion of the general grace of God.

So when Bach is in Köthen, in what was East Germany, which was Calvinist at the time, but he's composing mainly secular works. How do you frame that? Why did he do that?

Oh, that's that he didn't have a chance to compose any Lutheran cantata at the time. From one side, he must have been very happy to compose the organ works, instrumental works, and also secular cantatas and so on. But probably he wished to do more work to the Lutheran world, the Lutheran church and so on. That's why he moved to Leipzig, I think.

So let's go back and just talk about your career, your history a bit. So you're 12 years old, and all of a sudden you hear Karl Richter's recording of Bach's B Minor Mass. How did you come upon that and how did you feel at the time?

Well, that was really— yeah, that's a little stupid, but well, I was very, very excited, not only with that music, but also I got the quite big stereo equipment from my father. And then I was very excited to listen to whatever with the headphone. Headphone was also very first experience. And anyway, the Biman Amas was so fantastic, so wonderful, but I didn't understand anything from the text or from the music. The music was much too complicated. And only thing is I played quite much trumpet in the brass band, so that's why the trumpet playing by the German trumpeter, the Adolf Scherbaum, that was really fascinating in the Bimanamas. So I actually repeatedly listened to the only Gloria. But anyway, that Bimanamas is really the wonderful encounter with Bach's music.

And how was your musical ear back then? So the Richter recording, I think of it as a little bit a mix of overblown and stiff, even though it's pretty good, right? It's not what people would listen to now. Did you have a sense of that back then? Or were you just blown away?

No, no, no. Yeah, well, for other interviews, I have listened back to that recording recently, and that was completely different. And well, it is not acceptable at all for my ears because the He was— Karita must have been really wonderful musician. And also he played harpsichord by himself while conducting for example Saint Matthew Passion without seeing any scores! That's real amazing thing. But anyway that's his way of music making is completely modern not only modern but kind of machine-like notes-by-notes tatatatata tam-pa pa tan-tru-ra-tatata so that is really not acceptable anymore. But at that time, that made probably a lot of excitement for the audience, and this is very nice, I think.

Do you think there are any older recordings of Bach, say, of the B Minor Mass or the Passions that have held up before the Dutch movement for original instruments?

Yeah, well, I listened to the, for example, the Mengeberg St. Matthew Passion a couple of times, just as an example. That is a very famous example in history. Yeah, well, that is, of course, completely different, but probably at that time it was very beautiful performance, I think. And that is quite romantic, tempo is completely slow. Well, I have no idea how it was accepted, but actually it did work out at that time. So this kind of, you know, sense of value about the performance is changing all the time. So I think we belong to the quite different generation, but at that time, it must have been very right for me and very stimulating to do the Bach music.

And how was it you decided to study early music in the Netherlands? Was it just you wanted to study music and then you learned of the movement, or you went there because of the movement?

No, no, actually in this way, I was completely fascinated by the organ itself, so that's why I started play organ, and I got the lessons when I was a teenager before the university time. And then I wanted to study more organ, and my first organ teacher was a Belgian priest, actually, in Osaka. I told him that I wanted to be organist and so on. He said, but listen, Masaki, there is no good organ in Japan at all. So that is no good idea to study organ here in Japan. So why don't you study composition? So I did study composition, and in the university, that was very good, the curriculum. A very good process to understand the music. And in between, I just happened to meet the harpsichordist called Motoko Nabeshima, Japanese, the kind of first-generation harpsichordist who studied with Gustav Leonhardt in Amsterdam. And she was a really genius person. She spoke more than 6 languages in Europe, and she has spent quite a long time in Europe. And she came back to Japan, and I met her, and I got a lesson from her. And that was really changed my life. And she introduced me to Tom Koopman, who was the schoolmate of her. So they were together in Gustav Leonhardt class. So I went to Amsterdam and I went to the Tom Koopman concert on the day of my arrival. And that was really shocking. Wow, this is really so fresh and so exciting. So I decided to come to Amsterdam and that was very, yeah, Very good decision, I thought.

So if you started with organ, harpsichord, how was it then you came to conducting?

Conducting is actually— has been always outside of my idea because, you know, when you perform cantatas or whatever Bach's ensemble music, you know, someone must lead, very possible from the harpsichord as Bach did and so on. So I did in that way. So gradually, I made some ensemble with my brother and my brother's colleague and the string players and so on. And then we were simply starting to perform the concertos one by one. And I, for example, I gave them some sign or some signature. So my brother criticized all of them. He mean, oh, that is not clear. That is not— how in the world? Which tempo do you want? And something like that. And so only through this kind of discussion, I became a conductor. I'm not the conductor in the really traditional sense.

And were people telling you, well, you can only do one thing, it's organ, harpsichord, or conducting, you have to choose one, or everyone just let you do all of it?

Actually, these three are completely, I think that was integrated, easily integrated.

But you do all three, right?

Yeah. Well, yeah, but the harpsichord, organ is, for example, there's a completely different instrument, but still based on the same idea how to make music and also conducting, choir conducting especially, you know, there's exactly the same feeling as you play the fuga on organ. For example, theme comes now tenor, now soprano and something like that. So that's exactly the same. So only thing the choir has a text, so that's much more, you know, better than organ, I think.

Given how much music you've produced and how consistent the quality is, What is it you think you know about productivity that other people do not?

Well, I have no idea about other people's, but the— well, productivity, well, that is only— well, the Bach's music is so fascinating, so I can't stop working, simply. Yeah, well, I never tried to be productive whatsoever, just the only I want to to pursue the how to improve our performance, how to realize this and that, the music of Bach, and not only Bach, that is only music is there, so nothing else.

If you had to explain what is it about the music of Bach that you still do not understand, what would that be?

Well, Bach's music has always together with some kind of puzzles and enigma so that you can never get an answer to all all that kind of unknown aspects of the Bach. For example, Kunst der Fuge, for example, the art of fugue, for example, we don't know why he has really written or why, what kind of situation it was not finished. And in the cantatas, for example, there are plenty of really difficult places to understand why he did in this way and so on. Most of the cases we can find some answers from the text, but still it is not so easy to understand everything, and that was very good.

How good a sense of the grasp of Bach's mind do you feel you have, or is he just a complete mystery to you?

Yeah, quite much mysterious field, I think. So I'm trying to understand, and I'm trying to come closer to Bach's sense of Bach's mind, but actually it is very, very difficult. The more you work, the more distant you can get. That is really— yes, that's true.

When you're hiring for the Bach Collegium Japan, of course they have to be wonderful musicians, but given the extreme productivity demands that will be placed on them, what is it you look for in the people you hire?

Well, the most important aspect from musicians is probably how much they can devote to the music. Sometimes how much interest they have in that music. Well, I do, for example, singers auditions very often, and well, of course I can— I have to judge sometimes, you know, technical aspects, of course, how good or the technical, but not only the techniques, the most important thing is probably their interest and how much they can devote themselves to music. That is the most important thing. So I'm very happy to have now our members and orchestra and singers, and they— at the very beginning, they didn't have any idea what is the Bach's cantata especially, and then the choral music or this kind of ensemble music, how to do that. But in between, during our working together, they have developed a lot. So that is very nice. And they inspired me again. So this kind of vice versa, the inspiration is very, very nice.

Do you think Japanese players understand Bach differently?

I don't think so, but only thing is, basically Japanese people don't have any Christian background or tradition in the country, so sometimes I have to explain what the text says and so on, and also this and that text comes from this and that text of the Bible and so on. But the This kind of explanation is not possible in Europe, for example, because everything is already taken for granted. So that's no one can really explain about Jesus' parables. And so in Japan, I think it is very good to have that kind of a chance to talk about that things. And also the German text is of course basically impossible in Japan to understand immediately. That's why we need translations. We provide all the time Japanese translations to audience and also for the orchestra people, all the musicians. But this kind of translation work is a part of very important interpretation work because we read the Bible, for example, only through the translations. No one in this world reads the original language in Old Testament, New Testament. So actually,— in order to make this kind of translations, you know, we have to think on that, consider what it really means, and so on, all the time. So I try to make quite some translations of Bach's cantatas, some 20, 30 cantatas I have translated myself, but it's very time-consuming. That's why I gave up recently, but we have very good colleague to make good translations.

With your Japanese background, do you think you approach Christianity differently?

I think so, quite different from any other. Well, actually each of the countries have different traditional, different approach to the Christianity or whatever religion, I think. But in Japan is quite different from Korea, for example. In Korea is much more Christians now. It is said that 40 or 50% of the population is Christian, but in Japan is always says that the only 1% of the something. But in spite of that, the Christian culture is very well known in Japan, so everyone knows what Christmas is, and even Easter, it is quite known nowadays. But there's very not so many Christians in Japan. I thought formerly that that is a big, big negative aspect, but I think that's the— it is not possible really to count who is a Christian, who is not Christian. And you know, when we performed the Majipasha regularly on Holy Week, and every year since 20 years we are doing. Now we have regularly 3 performance in Holy Week in the same venue. So the something like 5,000, 6,000 people are coming for that performance. And that is amazing thing in comparison with the number of the Christianity in Japan. So actually, I think that quite many people can appreciate that kind of message from the Bible as well, not only the Bach's music, but from Bible and so on. So that is my hope.

Do you ever think back on what is called the Christian century in Japan, which ends, I think, in 1639, when a lot of Japanese convert to Christianity fairly rapidly, but then Christianity is suppressed? Is there some alternate history where Japan becomes more or less a Christian country? Or could that never have happened?

No, that has never happened. That was completely stopped, I think, the tradition-wise. But it is very interesting that there are quite many evidence that before the 1639, quite many churches were built by the missionaries and from Europe. And also in Azuchi, for example, where the Oda Nobunaga has a base, the very close to Kyoto, there was quite many churches and also quite some organs. At the time. And also, boys missionaries were sent twice at least from Japan to the Pope in Rome. And in between, at that time it took a couple of years, you know, to reach Europe. And in between, some of them practiced organ on the ship. And then when they arrived at Évora in Portugal, one of them could play organ immediately, and everyone was astonished. But in this kind of connection was completely stopped afterwards. That was very pity. And the Christianity was actually left over only as the hidden Christian. So that is a very interesting history, but the— probably it is not possible to call them Christianity anymore, but that is a kind of mix up with Buddhism. Recently passed away, the musicologist, Mr. Minagawa, Tatsu Minagawa, who has researched about that history and found out a very interesting thing. Like, for example, there are still hidden Christians in Japan, in Kyushu area.

Right.

Yeah. And I heard that they used to have the funeral ceremony combined with Buddhism and Christianity. So they're quite big houses or temple, like buildings and in the front side, they do the funeral ceremony according to the Buddhism, Buddhist way. And then in between, the priests are supposed to walk around back to the building and then while walking, they are always murmuring, "This is not true, this is not true, this is not true," and then come back to the Buddhism again, something like that. So this is a really interesting ceremony. So there's a kind of mixture with the Christians. So this kind of hidden Christianity Christian people had a very, very difficult and miserable history because they were completely depressed and also they tortured many people. But still they have survived in a way, but not really anymore as Christian, the proper Christian. Well, I don't know exactly. Well, I can't tell too much about that because I don't know exactly, but anyway, the hidden Christianity is still there. Yeah, that's a very interesting thing.

And you're from Kobe, right? That was originally a Christian center along with Nagasaki?

Exactly, exactly.

Because they were port cities, is that why?

Yeah, that is, Kobe is one of the most important. After the reopening of Japan, so 1868, there are probably two, Kobe and Yokohama, and even Sendai, the port places, you know, this very important to accept the any kind of culture from outside, but the Christianity came in, and for example, there is the oldest Protestant church is in Yokohama. So that is end of 19th century. This is really interesting history.

How do Japanese audiences for classical music, say in Tokyo, differ from New York audiences?

Well, Probably a little different. American audience are more friendly, I think. More friendly and more easier to be excited by the performance, and as if they look like more inspired directly from the music and also musicians. And in Japan, Japanese Audiences, sometimes they know very well about the repertory and very cooperative, but at the same time not so excited immediately. Probably the inside is very excited, but we Japanese people don't express directly from inside to outside. We were all told in the school, for example, that is rude, that is not the intellectual demeanor, something like that.

What do you think of the hypothesis that Japanese audiences, they have a special interest in iconic works such as Beethoven's Ninth, and there's an insistence that they hear the best or experience the best and single out very particular things. Do you think that's true?

Yeah, Beethoven's Ninth is very special being here, and especially in December, and so there are more than 100 performances in Beethoven's Ninth only in December.

And the chorus at the end has special meaning for Japanese people, do you think? The chorus, the lyrics to the choral ending of the Ninth.

Yeah, that's of course, that is very special meaning, not only for Japan, but I think that's musically, that's very big events. And in Japan, there are quite some of the projects who gather the people, more than 10,000 people to sing out the Beethoven Ninth at the end. That is quite a beloved event, but that is no more musical event, I don't think so.

Why do you think Bach's larger vocal works were neglected for as long as they were until Mendelssohn, right in the 1820s? They're a bit forgotten. The keyboard music is not forgotten. What happened there?

Well, I don't know. There are a couple of different aspects. For example, passion music of Bach, St. Matthew or St. John, you need definitely a continual playing, for example. But that idea was already distinct, already completely extinct by the time of Mendelssohn. So Mendelssohn has reformed, or the— how do you call it— made harmonization for the continual part. He has performed some cantatas as well, but he always provided the parts for the brass section or the wind section to fulfill the harmonization on the continuo. So that's the improvisative part of the continuo could not understood anymore by the time of Mendelssohn. And also it was much easier for them to understand the passion music just as the storytelling. So Mendelssohn has performed the St. Thomas Passion only mainly the oratoristic. So he avoided, for his first performance, he avoided nearly all the arias, even Aus Liebe, that he didn't perform the first time. And his intention was to follow the story as directly as possible. So in that way, probably it was thought just like the opera production. So Mendelssohn was indeed, that is, revived the St. Matthew Passion, but actually that performance is completely different what we are now outdoing.

How many times do you think Bach heard his own larger-scale masterworks? St. Matthew's Passion, B Minor Mass?

No, there is no evidence that he has performed the B Minor Mass.

That he never heard it?

He never heard it.

Only in his mind.

Yeah. And St. Matthew's Passion, he has performed at least 3 times, I think. St. John is 4 times or 5. I'm not show. But anyway, that's only a couple of times he has really heard and performed his own masterworks.

Now, your music is largely online. Not all of our listeners are experts in the music of Bach, but if you had to recommend 2 or 3 cantatas that you've conducted, a place for them to start, where would you send them?

That is very difficult, one of the most difficult questions. Well, that depends on the situation, what you have in the past, in experience. Of course. But one of my favorite concertos is, for example, ah, let me see.

Wachetaufe 41.

Wachetaufe 41.

That's a good one.

Very, very good one, of course.

Ein fester Burg.

80.

Ist unzugänglich?

Well, I don't recommend that for the first beginner because that is too complicated. Well, for example, Concerto No. Number 8, Liebster Jesu, that is really wonderful music, so you can really use it as a BGM background music as well, and that is really comfortable to listen. And or the Cantata 102, this, the Herr, deine Augen sehen, dein Glaubens, that is 102, is the— there's a very interesting structure. The choir has two double fuga, and that is really interesting structure. And also the aria was very dramatic. So, well, otherwise plenty of examples.

In the world today, how many top-tier organs are there for playing the music of Bach where you can really do it justice? You said there were no good organs in Japan, or you were told this?

At that time, yes.

How many organs of the highest quality are there in the whole world for you to play Bach on?

In the whole world?

Yeah, how many?

That's a really difficult question, but it totally depends on what you think beautiful or what you feel good. Because I prefer personally the historical organs, historical, the original organs, like in northern Germany or France or wherever. Well, my really favorite organ in the world is the Groningen, that is the Martinikerk, that is built by Johann Caspar Schnitger.

And where is that exactly?

Groningen is in the north part of the Netherlands. Oh, Groningen, yes, yes. Groningen, yes. That is really wonderfully restored. So that is quite much depends on how it's restored as well, because the organ has always very long history. So in between, for example, in the 19th century, the old, All of the historical organs were once renovated according to the musical taste of that time. So that's all the— nearly all the organs were once romanticized completely, romantic way, they changed. So in 20th century, most of the organs were re-renovated to bring them back to the original situation or 18th century or 17th century. 17th century. And so how to restore is a really key point, actually. So for example, this Matinikerk in Groningen organ, that is the— that originated the Schönitger organ, so the original, from the very original style, is very, very good. But that was beautifully restored by Jürgen Arendt, one of the most important organ builders in Germany.

How was it that organs improved in the time of Baroque music and Bach? So that he could do what he did? Because it wouldn't have been possible 100 years earlier, right?

Yeah, the organ building has been all the time changing according to the time. And so Bach's time, the second half of the 18th century, the organs around Bach's area, so Saxony and Thuringia, have quite different character from northern Germany or Italy or France and so on. And they had quite many stringy stops, registers, stringy sound, quite with a— contains a lot of high overtones, and that is very close to the string instruments, and that is very, very interesting. So that kind of character is very important for the Bach's organ music, I think, basically. But the Bach's, as I said, there is no organ extant from that time to play all the Bach's organ music, on one instrument. So actually Bach's idea of composition is always surpass our situation.

Here's a question from a reader, quote: How does he explain the, to me, surprisingly large number of Japanese organ students at top conservatories in Europe?

Now there's so many— not so many Japanese.

Not so many, you think? Yeah.

Now much more Korean.

Korean?

Yeah. Well, basically, I think nowadays in Europe, much less numbers of Japanese students, generally speaking. But for such a— you know, there's a famous conservatory like Paris or Rome or Vienna and so on. There are still quite some, I think, but much less than before, and that Europe is probably because the old Japanese musicians can get job now in Japan, so they don't have to really go to the Europe anymore in terms of the getting job. I think it's still very important to live in Europe once if you would like to be the musician of the European music. So this is very important, I think.

Once you arrived in the Netherlands, of course, you've been to Germany many times. Earlier on. How did that change how you understood the music of Bach?

Well, before I came to the Netherlands, actually, I didn't have any knowledge. I didn't have any understanding of Bach, so only the feeling. And I loved organ and I loved harpsichord. But the only thing is, when I started learning with Tom Koopman, you know, what I had done in Japan was not wrong. Wrong. So that's why I thought that I was really lucky, I thought. Well, actually I was completely ignorant before I came to the Netherlands about Baroque music or about Bach and whatsoever. So everything was so new to me. So all the knowledge— Ton Koopman had so many books and so much knowledge, and he really, you know, talked many things like a machine gun, so many. And well, after that, I learned and I read some books and so on, a little bit more objectively, then I came to the conclusion that I'm good, I can stay myself, you know, something like that.

But if you go to the Bach Church in Leipzig or go to Arnstadt, mentally, emotionally, does something fall into place or do you just look at it and say, oh, that's nice?

Well, for example, in St. Thomas Church in Leipzig, I was very happy to be there for the first time ever. That was still der Erste, every time. And in front of the church, there was a huge statue of Bach, and that was— oh, Bach was so big person and something. But actually, the St. Thomas Church itself is the— well, now that's quite— I heard that the inside is quite different from that time of Bach. And well, I was very happy to be there, but not really, you know, I can't make any connection from heaven through that church, you know. So anyway, that's— Bach can be anywhere. I thought that Bach can be anywhere in the world. So that is very important places, but now it's quite different in the building-wise, structure-wise, and everything is different. So you can never feel the original atmosphere there.

What do you think of Glenn Gould's highly unusual interpretations of Bach?

Well, Glenn Gould, I love the Glenn Gould performance very much, and that is not so unusual. If you try to make articulations and also to make some kind of effects like the harpsichord and organ and so on, I thought this is quite a natural conclusion. That he did in that way. There is one or two, the recording of organ playing, his organ playing, that was a little strange, I think. But piano, for example, Goldberg variations, that's a really fabulous recording, I think.

What do you think of the view that some of them are wonderful, like the partitas, the English Suite in A minor, but say the Well-Tempered Clavier, it just seems like swooning and the tempos are too arbitrary. It's not charming to me.

Oh, really?

Some of them seem to not work at all.

Yeah, could be. I don't know so many different recordings, but at least for the Goldberg Variations, that was very nice, the first one especially. Yeah. And sometimes the tempo is very quick and I can't do that in that way, but That's a very fascinating performance, I think.

The Brandenburg Concerti, what is it exactly that makes them such a major advance over the music that came before? Because they seem to come out of nowhere and they're so fully blown. The solos are incredible, right? The ensemble work.

Yes. I think that was Bach's intention to compile the 6 concertos as one collection. But probably by then he has composed quite many concertos, I think that is very simple, because the New Yorker Bach specialist Michael Marissen has written about that Brandenburg Concerto. That was a symbol. His intention was to represent the social hierarchy. The Brandenburg No. 1 is with two horns. That is very very, you know, the usual symbol for the court, the dignity of the court. And then second one is the trumpet solo, oboe, recorder, and violin. Those four instruments are supposed to be performed by any Stadtpfeifer. So they had to master all these instruments, and so on and so on. And the number three is very interesting, but The number 3 is— this number was made by Bach himself, and that is 3 violins, 3 violas, 3 celli. So that's everything dominated by 3. But he didn't compose the second movement. So that is actually movement was supposed also 3, but the second one is missing and only 1 bar in the middle of the page. So he clearly intended to— for him, himself to improvise the second movement. So that was the intention for the Berlin. He wanted to dedicate to the Berliner the Graf, and then if you hire me, then I can improvise for this movement and something like that.

What is it in contemporary classical music that you enjoy?

Contemporary music? Well, yes. I enjoy sometimes, but probably there are plenty of other specialists for that kind of contemporary music, I think.

But what do you listen to?

Well, I don't know what is the contemporary, but probably I listen to the Stravinsky, for example. That's one of my favorite composers. And I did actually, I made even one CD of the Puccinella and so on, even more recent one like Takemitsu, and that is very beautiful. But sometimes I can't understand what their intention. So sometimes they're very difficult. Very recently, I used to be the student for the composition. And at that time, my teacher was Akio Yashiro, who has studied in Paris. And he has passed away when he was 46 years old, that really— while Still, I was a student at that time. But he has composed a wonderful symphony and the piano concerti and so on. And very recently, I have performed his symphony for the first time in my life, and with the Sapporo Symphony Orchestra. And that was great, great pleasure. And the rhythmical is so interesting. And so the structure is quite classical. So his way of composing was— in a way conservative, according to the very classical structure and also rhythm pattern and so on. But the sound itself is completely, well, new. I mean, atonal music. So it was a little difficult for me to enjoy that kind of sound. But it's a wonderful experience.

What is it you like in popular music?

Popular music. Again, I don't know what kind of definition of the popular music, but the— well, I like some of the singers like Mariah Carey, for example, and also Whitney Houston and so on, those things. That's really wonderful music. And so they are really good, you know, as singers. And also, so the texts are also very kind of cheer up the people, and that was very positive aspect all the time. So that was very, very nice. And sometimes in Japanese popular music, we call them the— one of the traditional Japanese popular music called enka. Enka means that is the songs for the remorse and also the sometimes regrets and so on, sometimes. All the time, very often Japanese popular songs have that kind of text which describes the negative aspects of our experience. I find it a little difficult— not difficult, a little pity.

What's your favorite Beatles song? Beatles?

Beatles?

Yeah, Beatles.

Beatles? I don't know much about that. Yeah, that's Beatles, really, I don't know. But when I was a brass band, you know, we played some Beatles arrangements for brass band, and that was Yellow Submarine. And yeah, one of the Beatles songs which they hired the very top, the piccolo trumpet was a feature.

Penny Lane, right?

Penny Lane, yes, exactly.

That's very good.

That is my favorite.

When you're conducting and recording, what is it you're thinking about? Do you have to concentrate completely on the music, or does your mind wander at all, or how is that for you?

No, not at all, not at all. Well, basically, I can't think anything other than music. Then what is happening? Yeah, that happened, or in that bar, and so even I can't think of the next bar, so the only thing I always concentrate in what's coming next, what's coming next, something like that, and the purpose or aim of that part of the music. So what kind of atmosphere must be realized and so on. That is most important things.

And you're never distracted by physical troubles, like I'm tired of standing or anything?

Well, no. No distraction. Only for the rehearsals, you know, when I start rehearsal, sometimes I feel, ah, today I'm very tired. But during the rehearsal, I always fresh up, so that's no problem anymore. Because of the music, you know, I always— I can get energy from that.

How much do you need a score to get How much? Well, some people conduct without a score. It's much harder. Do you need a score or you use a score? You don't?

Oh yeah, of course, definitely. I always use the score. I never, never do anything by heart because that is not necessary.

And it just takes up more brainpower for no purpose.

No, actually, you know, for pianists or violinists or singers, for example, they maybe they must memorize all the texts or whatsoever. And for pianist, they— most of the pianists are too busy, you know, to see the score. So that's why they, of course, must memorize everything. But for conductors, there's no reason to memorize, actually. So just like Anne-Sophie Mallet said, and also choir, choir people of the sacred music, not in the opera scene or whatsoever, but they must keep the scores always in hand because —by memorization, your understanding of the music are changing all the time. Because to realize this and that notes and the text and so on without mistakes and so on, then you must take different energy to keep up that. But what we should do is only to make music, to make a sound. So I think other than opera, generally performances, I think it is better to have scores all the time.

Do you just go back and listen to your old recordings for fun, or it's finished, you're done, and you move on to the next thing?

Yeah, basically I want always to move on to the next and never, never look back. But sometimes I was told to do that because I have to choose the concerto, this and that thing, to make another program, or these are like to make a recommendation of the concert, and so. But basically, I don't look back at all.

But you have, say, at least 2 recordings of St. Matthew's Passion. I think they're about 10 years apart. Yeah. So when you did the second, was your feeling, I just want to do something different, or you had heard the first and you thought, no, that's wrong, I need to correct it? No, no, no, no. They're just different visions. Each recording—

and never, never, none of them are really perfect. So I always want to do once again, like the live performance. So if I have time, I'd like to do all the cantatas once again. But then after all, then I probably will want to do once again. So that's why there's a never-ending story. But for St. Matthew Passion is the first recording, I have nothing to regret. But in between, we have improved in not only the technically, but also the understanding about Bach and all the memory members, choir member, orchestra member, have all developed quite much. So that's why, as a milestone, you know, I think this is very good to do once a year. And if I could live another 30 years, and then probably I will do once again the Universal Passion.

You have one of the best-known recordings of Handel's Messiah, but as you know, there's literally hundreds of recordings of the Messiah. Do you go and listen to some of them before you record? To make sure yours is different, or you just figure it will come out different? Do you listen to old ones like Beecham for inspiration, or how do you approach the musical past?

That is the— sometimes I need to listen to the others' recording of the older one or the other kind of reference, but basically I don't listen to— well, I'm trying not to listen too much other recording. That was too much information. And I think the make recording is very interesting because that is a quite important experience for all of us, all of our colleagues. And during the recording session, you know, many things happens and not always very easy, but during that recording sessions, you know, we all take that music into any cells in our body. That is really interesting. And for example, the Messiah recording is a long time ago, but during the recording session, a couple of our colleagues' mother or father or spouse, they have passed away or something. And also my wife's mother has passed away away just when we finished the recording, as if she has waited for that moment. So that kind of memory is always coming back, and so it is really wonderful experience to keep going with the recording session, session recording. That's very nice.

As you must know, Apple has recently acquired BIS Records, and you've done so much of your work with them. Will that change how you approach recording projects?

Well, actually, we don't know yet what's happening now. So I'm so happy to be working with the BIS all the time since 30 years now. And so I really hope that we can go on in more or less a similar way. And we have really wonderful connection, the relationship with this company.

So more people might hear your music because Apple will put it higher in the algorithm, right? What do you mean this? Well, let's say you're listening to music through Apple services and you just type in Bach. You don't know what you want. I would think it's more likely that Apple puts you at the front because they own the rights to that music and that more people will hear you.

I'm just guessing. Yeah, yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe that is what— yeah, yeah, probably, hopefully, yes. So it could be good for you.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's very nice, yeah.

So you're now what, 67 years old? And you first heard Bach when you were 12 years old. That's 55 years of listening to Bach, playing it, conducting it, recording it. Over so many years, how do you think it's affected you emotionally or spiritually or philosophically? How are you different internally?

Wow. Well, I'm getting older now, so the end of Bach is always there. So yeah, well, I've never thought in that way. Bach is my life, actually. So, you know, so familiar, as if I am living inside of Bach's music. So I can never judge from outside. So yeah, well, actually, it is not thinkable to live without Bach's music or without music. And so that is my life only.

So— Last two questions. First, what is your favorite pizza in New Haven? Pizza? Well, it's a—

well, two perfectly Actually, to be honest, I didn't get any pizza. It's very good there. Yeah, I know. That's very famous. Yeah. But, well, I don't like pizza so much. I'm very sorry.

Last question. What will you do next? Now? Now.

Well, after this project with Yale and Juilliard, now we are rehearsing of the Handel Handel's oratorio called L'Allegro Pensoso e Moderato. That's very interesting music. But after a couple of organ concerts in Japan, because in Kobe, in the Shoin Chapel, where we have made all the CDs recording, and that organ that's built by the French organ builder called Marc Garnier, that was exactly 40 years jubilee this year. So that's why I will give a couple of concerts there. So that is actually starting point of my whole career. So that is really important events. And after that, I'm coming back to Europe to make another volume 6 or 7 of the organ series in Groningen. And then I will make tour with the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment with the Christmas Oratorio, all 6 parts. So that's really exciting. And next year, January, we are going to perform Brahms' Deutsche Requiem with period instruments in Japan and to make a recording. That is really exciting.

I look forward to that. Masaaki Suzuki, thank you very much. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thanks for listening to Conversations with Tyler. You can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. If you like this podcast, please consider giving us a rating and leaving a review. This helps other listeners find the show. On Twitter, I'm @TylerCowen and the show is @CowenConvoz. Until next time. Please keep listening and learning.