From Yeshiva to Shaman with Oriya Pollak

All right, everyone, and welcome to another amazing episode of the Influencer Mindset Podcast. And today, ladies and gentlemen, we have with us the one and only Orya Polak, straight from Israel. And he's been my friend for many years. Orya is, I don't know how to describe you, but he's an urban, modern, healer, shaman, any way you want to call it. He has tremendous experience in the field of psychedelic therapy. I think over 15 years, worked with hundreds, if not thousands of individuals and helped them remove blockages and just live a better, more fulfilling life. Today, we're going to dig deep into the psyche of what does that mean to be a psychedelic therapist in general? How is it to lead individuals, groups with a thing called journeys? As we all know, the journeys for healing and all the challenges that might have come and that Oya experienced in his journey. Since he started helping people become the best version of themselves. So without any further ado, hello, Orya. How are you?

I'm doing great. I'm a little nervous about sharing all my challenges, but I like where you're heading. I like where you're heading.

Okay. So usually, you know, I brainstorm a little bit with ChatGPT, but For some reason, I felt like this should be natural. It should be completely transparent and organic. So, Orya, being—

We met in a spiritual organization. That's true. We've been friends now, because that's what I was thinking. I didn't call to brainstorm. I said, he's my friend, you know, he's just gonna, we're just gonna hop on and he's gonna say, what's up, Aurea? And I'm just gonna go from there. And you gave me this beautiful introduction about being an urban shaman, psychedelic therapist. Wow, it's interesting because, yeah, you gave me this great intro. And I'm being honest that what I'm working on the most in my life right now, these days, in the last, since I'm 40 years old, so I'm 40, almost 44. And specifically in the last 6 months, a year, just noticing how much this being somebody, like somebody good, somebody cool. I shared today how when I was this, you know, when I was acting and playing the role of an urban shaman traveling around the country, even the world, to beautiful places, leading these amazing group ceremonies. And I really thought I was like at the top of the spiritual development pyramid, you know? Like, I really thought this is as high as it's going to get, pun intended, as far as, you know, we're going to— it's work that you go into your consciousness and you expand psychologically, you You see what the gods are seeing. You become Moses, you become Rabbi Akiva, you become Shimon Bar Yochai. You get to take off all these layers in one night. You get to see the most beautiful images. You literally feel like you're in Halls of Sinai every time. And what I noticed is I had an effect. I really liked it a little too much. Meaning, I really liked that it was cool. I really liked that it was different. In one way, it was the top of a specific industry. Like, you couldn't get the better experience as far as spiritual expansion than going to the top of a mountain, literally. Let's say Malibu or the Caribbean. Spend 24 hours with amazing people. Take ayahuasca, take mushrooms, take LSD, take heart medicine. And now that I'm getting a little older, I realize that that is a trap too. I'm not saying that there isn't a place for it. There's a great place for it in society. We have to have respect and reverence for, but it became another thing. It became, I had a, the most difficult thing for me was that I needed to be somebody. Okay. I wanted to either be somebody good, like a good shaman, a good therapist, or I was doing everything I can avoiding being somebody bad, a bad therapist, a bad shaman. Even though, even though technically speaking, the substances, all the medicines that, you know, you take, They're supposed to take you back inside, back in the eye of the storm instead of the storm itself, back in Yud Kei Vav Kei, which is the observer, which is the noticer. And the higher the angels, the higher the devils. So what I'm trying to say is what I'm noticing when you gave me this introduction, how I feel like I'm a recovering as somebody, okay? Like, I wanted to be somebody good, somebody fixed, somebody healed, somebody with the greatest job, the best job. And one of the hardest things was to notice when I was doing this work, because I was kind of thrusted into it. I was a computer geek, you know, tech guy who went from one sort of network technical architecture to another because consciousness is made up of zero, you know, their biological experience of consciousness is zeros and ones. When you, feel free to cut me off, when you ingest, when you ingest a plant, it's like installing an app, okay? When you install an app on your phone, when you run it, then all of a sudden what you see on the screen is whatever that app tells you to see. When you ingest these psychedelics, or any medicine really, or any drug, anything, food, whatever, it's zeros and ones. You're taking a program in that tells your brain, tells the screen of your life, which is your consciousness, to generate and create meaning in a certain way. And there is a trap. I'm just gonna say it right now, there's a trap. Like the whole, you know, we're going out there and we're listening. So you're going, you take all these journeys, it's like Moses talking, going up to the mountain and he's arguing with himself, right? He's arguing with himself. He's like, who should I tell? What should I say? What's my name? What's your name? Why am I good enough? Am I not good enough? That's what Moses does on the mountain. And that's the thing that I saw the most in these psychedelic journeys is the thing to learn is that we are always talking to ourselves, right? It's just one big conversation, right?

Give us a little bit of background, you know, because, because, you know, the reason why I thought that, um, you know, bringing you on the podcast and kind of like sharing your experiences and knowledge, uh, is because that I've, I've noticed that, um, you know, psychedelic therapy is right now becoming a very trendy thing. Like, people that I never thought will actually go on a journey, went on a journey and solved problems and solved the issues that they had for years. Even chronic disease that were messing with their life. People used to take pills every day just to solve some stomach issues. People that had issues with a diseased father, people that had issues with fear, fear of just like anything, you know, getting amazing results, getting like literally amazing results. And when I see that, I'm like, okay, this is becoming also something that we need to not only talk about, but we need to see how we can utilize it to help people that really need, that really tried therapies, tried pharmaceutical drugs, and it didn't work for them. And now there is this amazing, kind of like even an ancient way to heal. So for you, Oriah, you coming, I know being your friend, I know you grew up in a yeshiva kind of environment, right? Like yeshiva.

Tell us a little bit about that. Sure. I'll start with all healing is flow, is proper flow. And we'll go back to there. Okay. The reason why people are experiencing all these amazing healings is because they're ingesting substances that basically get them to unattach, unattach, unidentify with the physical reality, with their current story, with their old story, with whatever pattern they're in. Sometimes we're so stuck, not sometimes, and it's back to the yeshiva land, okay? I grew up in a religious environment. My parents were chosrei betshuva, which means they became religious. They became religious actually through Kabbalah, studying Kabbalah. And not only that, they studied Kabbalah and did opium at the same time. So there was a mixture of of substances and spirituality right when I was a baby, even before I was a baby. And as a matter of fact, I grew up in a very ultra-orthodox household. I mean, I was the most orthodox because my parents were newly orthodox, but they sent me to cheder and yeshiva. And I grew up in a very restricted environment where it was all about praying and studying and right and wrong. And I was really genuinely scared of sinning and making mistakes. And my parents at home, my mother and my stepfather, they were religious, but they were also addicts. They were also, you know, from one drug to another. Before you know it, they couldn't help it. So I grew up in this interesting mixture of spirituality and substance abuse. Again, now, many, many years later, once I, when I started practicing, you know, as an urban shaman, once I started leading ceremonies, I realized that my parents weren't junkies. They were just people like you and me experimenting, just not having the right guidance. And I needed to experience psychedelics and plant medicine myself just to, like you said, have compassion and empathy for who they were and their struggles. But yeah, I grew up until I was 16. I was ultra orthodox. I was really a good at it too. I was hoping to be a gedola dor. That's what I was trained in. And when I moved to America, I moved to America in the dream because my biological father was in America. And I just, I had, you know, I always fantasized about going to America. I always fantasized about dropping the payas, dropping the kippah, just going out there and creating a life for myself like a chiloni, like a normal person. I thought that what I saw on TV was real. I thought I grew up on Beverly Hills 90210 and Saved by the Bell and Michael Jackson videos. So, I thought that those things were real. So, I did whatever I can. I came to New York, I started a tech company, I sold it relatively for 20, 21-year-old. It was a big deal for me. I had a startup, managed to sell, have a few shekels. Did all the normal things, got into real estate. But before you know it, I was 25, 26. I felt like weird because everything I touched, everything I wanted would happen. Meaning I wanted a tech, I wanted real estate, I wanted things. It would happen. I studied NLP, I studied hypnosis. I learned about the mind. It blew me away. And but I, at 25 years old, 26 years old, I felt empty. I felt like, what's the point? What am I doing? I don't know what to do. And just to make matters worse, I started battling with my own addictions, you know, normal Western culture, everyday addictions, whiskey, tobacco, weed, you know, cocaine when you go out with buddies. And it just seemed like I ran all the way from Israel, I ran all the way from my problems at home to kind of, I felt like a junkie myself, but in a Western culture. So when I left to California, when I left to the, I came to the Kabbalah Center in California, it was in this quest to go back to my childhood well, to my childhood well. I wanted to see Okay, where did I grow up? Where was the truth? What was behind the facade? What was going on there? And believe it or not, right around the time I met you is the first time when I understood what Shabbat is, when I understood just the metaphysics. I guess I got into metaphysics at the same time. I understood the observer effect just for a second. And all metaphysics is based on Quantum mechanics is based on the observer effect. All Kabbalah is really based on that truth that you are the creator or co-creator depending on your comfort level. And I found a lot of peace all the way out in Los Angeles attending Shabbats with you at the Kabbalah Center, mostly for the community, for the love and affection we felt around shared teachings, around spirituality. But still, honestly, still, there was a level of emptiness I really couldn't understand. I kept battling my addictions. You know, again, everyday addictions, weed, alcohol, wanting love, wanting things from the outside world. And that's when it was actually a Kabbalah Center mentor teacher that took me to my first ceremony when I was 29 years old. That's how I was introduced to their whole world. And when I, now because I grew up with, you know, like I said, religious junkies, I kind of, and I didn't go to college, I never really I never really, like I said, I dabbled with addictions, but I never got into substances. I never did mushrooms. I never did LSD. I never did anything crazy. I never did that stuff. I didn't even know about it. So I really didn't. So when I was introduced to it in that healing way, when I was 29 years old, I remember that, I mean, I had my first session and I took a substance that opened up my heart. Okay. Mind you, I've never taken stuff before. I've never taken like ecstasy or MDMA, whatever the kids take. And I remember distinctly that when I took it and about 2 hours later, I felt like I was cheated out of this experience my whole life. I felt like, how could I have not known that my power is my heart? I could have not known that I am the product of love. That who I am is love. It blew me away. It blew me away that all of my pain and suffering has been not acknowledging my own heart, not acknowledging the tremendous power that comes through, that God itself, herself, himself is experienced through the heart. So of course, like a good entrepreneur, I was like, 'You can make a living doing this?' You know, like, I was looking and searching for a decade, you know, looking at doing everything I can. So I remember it was, I went back to work, I got myself a raise because I started telling the truth. I remember that was the first thing that happened. I started telling the truth. I just said what I felt. I was honest with myself. I was honest with my surroundings. I got myself a raise. I started going to these ceremonies and I learned this methodology. This guy was genius, still is. And he explained to us shamanism in a way, not like in The Jungle Book or whatever people do. He explained it to me in a very technical way. And the technical way is this. You believe that you are your mind, or you believe that you are your body, or you believe that you are spirit. Maybe you believe that you are your heart, the four main elements of life, the circle of life. But the truth is, you are consciousness. You are the middle. So, in the West, that was his words, you guys are stuck in your head. You're stuck telling stories, not understanding that you are the storytellers. So I'm going to give you a substance. That's what he said to us. It doesn't matter what. For every one of you, I'm going to give a different substance. But the substance will take you back to the middle. How do you push somebody to the middle? You do the opposite. So if you're stuck in your mind, you give somebody a heart substance. If somebody's stuck in their heart, you give them a mind substance. I'm simplifying, but that's basically the methodology. If you're stuck in your body in trauma, you either take him to the heart or take him through spirit. As a tech guy, I was a tech guy, you know what I mean? Like, I understood zeros and ones. I was a Microsoft Certified Professional, Cisco Certified guy. I was one of the first A+ network technical engineers that existed in the '90s. I understood it as tech. And it blew me away because I like tech. I like spirituality and I basically nagged this guy, you know, I told him I want to do this for a living. He kept telling me, why are you competing with me? Go deal with your issues. He sent me on all these missions to work out my daddy issues, believe it or not. And about a year, one year after my first ceremony, I started leading groups. Now, I did it the same way I did everything else, okay? I just did it headfirst. There was no one around me except this one guy who has been doing it for 30 years. I felt like a pioneer. I didn't realize that I'm just falling into the same trap. I'm just looking for another job, doing another thing. I basically became like, how do I explain it? I'll tell you a secret. I always knew deep inside, my name is Oriah, means light of God. You know, I got it because I was born premature, I was half dead. I knew that who I am is light and I need to be like honest. That's my entire purpose in life, to be honest. When I started working in this job, into this particular job, there was a level of shadowiness, undergroundedness that I liked because I knew how to tell good stories. I knew how to move around the system, but my soul didn't like it. I'll be honest with you. I'm going to say it to you right here. I didn't like it. I didn't like that I'm gonna, you know, that people would come in and they would ask all these questions. They would think I have answers and I would have to find whatever answers to give them just so they would feel good about. I had a really difficult time with this job, but because it was the coolest job I ever had, I had to keep going.

But what was the intention of the job? Like, I'm gonna just have recreational fun. Doing those ceremonies, or I'm going to help heal people.

He called it software for community making, and I got that. That's what I got. I got that the intention for this job was for people to open up their hearts, to be gentle, gentler with themselves, find a way inward that they could get to know themselves. But quite frankly, again, I'm being honest, it's not about, it's about me, not about anyone else. There's a lot of people doing this work. I'm talking about me specifically. Me, Oriah, no one else. I'll be honest with you. I'm just here on camera. I know you didn't even expect it. I knew I was taking an easier route. I wanted to be the medicine myself, bro. Like, I looked at Hashem. I looked at God when I was doing it. And I was like, I'm good at it. I get it. I'm really good at it. People kept coming. I didn't have to advertise. It was amazing. But I had a really hard time because I felt like I'm just doing my childhood in reverse. Like, I just found a good way of— I have a good heart. I can't mess it up. Like, my intention has always been good. But I knew that I am taking the short route. I didn't want to be handing out pills. I didn't want to be handing out chocolates. I didn't want to be handing out— it was great. It's a great job. There's a lot of people who do it and do amazing. I ain't talking about them. I'm talking about me, me, me, me. I had such a difficult time with it. And again, it's part of the immaturity. What does that mean? I didn't, I didn't, take on the role that they saw me as. Meaning, when I walked into a room, they saw an urban shaman like you described, somebody who is well aware of all these substances, somebody who knows what's good for them, somebody who is going to take care of them, somebody who, you know, whatever it is. And they saw me the way I see myself now. Okay, like 14 years later. Back then, I was just one of the guys for me, you know what I mean? I was just like another entrepreneur who is really good at getting things done, who has an amazing heart. And the dissonance was I did not accept my role. Like I kept rebelling against it for multiple reasons. I didn't want to do it secretly. I kept telling God, I told God 2 years. That's what I said to God. I swear. I was like, give me 2 years. I'll do it for 2 years and then I'll be done. I won't hide behind the medicine. So after 2 years when I kept doing it, shit went loose, man. All hell broke loose. Like anything I was afraid of started showing up. I couldn't stop taking the medicine myself. Now again, people tell me, so what? So what? All shamans take medicine. No, bro. Life just became one big Like, I couldn't tell the differences between what was in a journey, what was in real life, because the same thing would happen. I would come into a room, true story, okay? I'm a rabbi. I like to teach. That was my favorite part. I would come into a room, I would give the lesson. I would give the lesson, 30 people, 40 people. I love giving the lesson, drasha, look at me, that's what I do. And then I would ask people their intention and then I would hand out the medicine. I would hand out the different things. I would follow my intuition. I was really good at it. Baruch Hashem, the Ruach HaKodesh would fly through. No issues right there. Never had any issues with that. And then the same thing would happen. There's 45 minutes until things kick in. About 45 minutes would pass. Now, I would stand there in the room and I would feel like storms. Okay, it would be storms of energy. You're talking about all these, like, these are all like people, you know, real people. And it was so intense for me. Every time I would go to the bathroom quietly, I would take something. About 5, 10 minutes later, I would come out. Everybody would be like, wow, it's amazing. What happened? Like, I felt like I couldn't regulate. I couldn't take on the role. I needed, like, I could not handle going from 0 to 100. So I would just find myself hiding, you know, I was hiding that I was always on something. I was hiding that I didn't really want to do it. I was hiding, like, it just became like a classic, classic story of imposter syndrome. And it was, it was, it was so difficult, bro, honestly. I want to be honest with you. I know you didn't expect that on the podcast. My two, my favorite thing in the room, and I did do like hundreds of ceremonies, like individual sessions would be thousands. My favorite thing in every room, every night was the oven, the microwave, because there was a clock on it. And I could always tell how soon am I to getting out of there. Now, mind you, I'm present, I'm there, I'm doing my magic. But all I wanted was the night to end. All I wanted is to sleep already. I would sit around with people and, you know, being me and amazing, I would be listening to the songs thinking, when is the next song over? Because I felt like a spiritual stripper. I'm going to go to the next person. It was— so I was in heaven and hell, bro. I was in heaven. It was the best job I ever had. I was affecting people's life. People loved it. And if I told people the truth, they were like, yeah, it's normal. Everybody takes, it's all good. Don't worry about it. But I just wanted out, man. I felt like I was stuck inside another layer, another layer, another layer, another layer, another layer. And it was difficult. So for me, The most difficult thing was that I, yeah.

Would you say it was your ego in the way or your sense of self or your sense of somebody, I am somebody that was in the way?

I'm being super honest with you. I think that I, if, if it was, I want to say what I want to say, and maybe I'm full of shit, I could be full of shit, is that it just wasn't my path. Just, it was, I was good at it. I was also good at making websites, and it just wasn't my path. And because it wasn't my path, I couldn't lie. I think that I needed to develop an ego. It would have been helpful for me to develop a persona. My teacher told me, dude, you got to develop a persona. You can't just be yourself. And I didn't really understand him. So I could have developed a healthy ego, holding on that role, being very, very, very, very, very rich, keeping it straight. I would probably be owning the town. You know, I was the first in that class and I could be whatever. But that's one thing. I think I could have developed a healthy ego. Then maybe there's also the other, the ego that was afraid. I was afraid to double down, to do my work. But see, I'm being honest with you, man. Like I'm looking at the camera and nothing else. It wasn't my path. Like, and I feel bad because I serve thousands of people and Like, there's such a thing to like, it just wasn't my cup of tea. I always knew it. Like, how many times do you do something and that you're really good at? And it might be like the most amazing thing, but I knew, I just knew it. I saw all these red flags and all these things. And I know you didn't even expect that, you know, you brought me on as this expert shaman. And my work right now is like, I work with people who go to journeys in and out. But it's different because I remind people that there really isn't anything outside themselves. There really isn't. There really is. There's nothing there, man. You could take everything. There's nothing there. It's all an illusion. In the Garden of Eden, we were told one freaking thing. What? Do not what? Do not?

Eat from the tree, right?

Do not bite the freaking apple. You can enjoy, you can enjoy heaven. You can do not bite it. So again, I'm 44 almost. I'm not saying I'm not ragging on the past. I'm not ragging on anybody that's doing it. But there comes a point you realize, stop biting on the apple. So I was biting the apple. Yes, I was biting my ego's apple. I was biting somebody's apple. I was biting I believe that I have needs and wants and desires and I'm supposed to like, I'm supposed to have this and have that and this is who I am and if I don't have this, I'm not— Oh my God, like such BS. But again, only life will teach you that. So you can take all the substance you want. It's amazing. It opens you up. It clears you up. It provides healing because it puts you back in the center. It puts you back, back, back. When you take the substance, it takes you away from the apple. You bite the apple, it's part of your flesh. You take the substance, it disidentifies you. You go back to observer. That's the secret. Now, so I'm here, I like to help people. I say I recommend it. It's been part of my path. I healed my issues with my dad because I saw him as a real human being. I healed so many issues, but I just want to say that it's another trap with all the respect. It's amazing. It needs to be there. All methods are a trap at the end of the day. They're designed to trap you because they work for a second. It's like a booster, a rocket booster. They send you to the right place, but the rest is up to you.

I think that today part of the, you know, the guidelines that's going on with psychedelic therapists is that they don't take the medicine when they sit for someone, so to say, or when they actually do the ceremony. So they are just there to be with the people and kind of guide them through what they're going through, because people go through crazy stuff within the journey. So I think that that was kind of like where your trap was, that that you didn't put that boundary maybe because you were young, you were having fun, you were just doing your thing, and this is where kind of things got confused. So share with us how did that kind of like ended? When did you get to a point when you said, okay, now I got to stop this and now I'm going to have to go to a new journey? And what did you discover? Like, what was the pivotal point that kind of made you make the switch?

I kind of hinted to it a few times about the end. It's very simple, okay? Whatever you're afraid of, whatever unintegrated issues you got from childhood, that will show up. Now, if you're off your path, again, I knew I was off my path. I knew that I was also lazy, meaning I didn't work to make a living and to offer myself anything but doing the ceremonies, meaning that was my promise to God. I said, I'm going to at least also work, you know, not giving medicine, being the medicine myself. That was my promise. It's between me and me. And I'm a storyteller, okay? Who I really am is I'm a storyteller. With all my drama, with all the stuff that I experienced, I knew that it was just to do this one day. I'm talking to producing, I want to, I want to turning this into a TV show, bro. The rest, you know, what I did wrong, I didn't do wrong. It's just good material. Honestly, I'm being really honest with you. So me, I always wanted to have a good story to tell. So in that story, whatever I was afraid of, okay, whatever I was afraid of, when I grew up, I was afraid because I grew up in a service suppressed society, right? There was spiritual abuse, there was sexual abuse, there was like suppression, okay? There was sexual suppression, there was spiritual suppression, the teachers were wrong, and I ran away from this, okay? I ran away all the way to another life, to New York, to Los Angeles. So when I saw that I'm not keeping my promise, and I saw that the same things that I ran away from as a kid. Okay? The same stuff that I ran away from as a kid, like I ran away from sexual suppression, I ran away from spiritual misconduct. I ran away from these things when I saw that I'm experiencing the same things. And my biggest fear, my biggest fear as a child was humiliation. My biggest fear is people are going to make fun of me. When I was the golden boy in the class, I was the first, I was the golden boy, I was successful. I went from golden boy to like my worst reputation within overnight, all of a sudden, which took me by surprise. But I also realized that it's my own making. I knew what I was doing. I knew that I was self-sabotaging myself to try to move me away from my shadow career, pun intended. This was a shadow career. So when I basically found myself in the worst reputation that I could feel, when my wife looked at me and she said, I don't want somebody to come take the kid away because somebody threatened us with going to the authorities. That we have drugs at home. And my wife looked at me, she said, I don't want to lose the kid. That's when I was like, all right, all right. So I went to Israel to take a little trip. And I remember I went on like my first night in Israel, I went home. I found myself in a bar doing whatever drugs, waking up somewhere. Like I noticed this huge hole in my heart and I said, What are you looking for? What are you looking for? What is that gaping hole in your heart? I says, I don't know. I want to have to cut off everything. I want to have to go back home. I mean, I had to go back. So I made Aliyah. Like I went back as a Katin Chosel. I said, okay, I'm done. Of course, it wasn't that easy. People kept coming. It was a miracle after miracle. I didn't stop working until the last second. An air, literally a pilot, like a pilot. One of my clients told me, just tell me when you want to go and I'll fly you. Like the miracles didn't stop. So I went home. I basically, you know, I don't know if you know the dark night of the soul metaphor. I was licking my own wounds and feeling really low and down on myself for years. Like years. It felt really weird to me. I couldn't figure it out. I couldn't figure it out. And the turning point was right after my father died, which was also interesting to me because he was my best friend. He was my confidant. He battled with addictions and he said cigarettes would kill him. And one day he just said, I'm coming to die. And he came to Israel and he just died after like 12 days. And all of a sudden I was alone. I was alone, you know, like reputation-wise, whatever-wise, I was just alone. And a friend called me, okay, somebody that you actually know. And he, it was this moment, I remember where I was and he said, you know you created everything, right? Now, I'm a spiritual guy, you know what I mean? Like, what do you mean you created everything? He's like, you're amazing. You created all of this. You created the high, the lows, the down, the bad, all of this. You see how— but you have a problem. You believe that reality is real. You actually believe your story. Now, I took a lot of substances, bro. I did a lot of shit. I never got it. Never Uzi Moses PhD PhD PhD. I never understood it. I never understood. It was after 5 years on my own, licking my own wounds, being in Israel, feeling like low of the low, like I couldn't, I was frozen. And for one second, I took responsibility. And I don't just mean like I took responsibility for my mistakes. No. Took responsibility, period. Realized that I've been outsourcing my connection. I've been— I always prayed to God. I always have. But I never understood that I'm outsourcing God. Like he's outside. Like I never understood that it's in here. And my work began there. I started my work, like, I started to get up. I started to get up. I started to go, wow, if I created this, then there can't be any wrong. Like, I started healing from this place of I am Yud Kei Vav Kei, and it's a responsibility. And all the drugs and all the substances, they're just crutches or training wheels. Or pointers or signposts or reference points. But at the end of the day, if you can't be alone with yourself without shoving something in your mouth, it ain't it. It ain't it. So I began like a slow recovery from the outside world. I mean, when I was hoping that, you know, the only thing I'm going to do is be honest with you. Because you invited me. That was the only thing, because my recovery is about truth. And, you know, if I used to hand out pills and chocolates and whatever, my medicine is truth. So first with myself, and now with you and whoever might be tuned in, taking real responsibility for the creatorness. And something that I did without. I spent 6 months on LSD, okay? I literally spent 6 months on LSD at some point. Wow. I saw that my thoughts create reality, but it's gonna, people are gonna, I don't know if people are gonna hate it, love it, I don't really care. Well, I care, but that's a different story. When you, when you, When you take something from the outside, the whole experience belongs to the substance. And I have kids, okay? Training wheels are important. Training wheels are very, very, very, very, very important. I mean, that's how we learn. But it's not the same. It's not the same. It's not the same. There is a presence, there is an emptiness. The observer, the voice in your head that Moses heard, is real. It's real. And we all have that voice. We all have that voice. And we do whatever it takes to try to understand it, to try to avoid it, to try to ignore it. I was praying not to be somebody on your podcast today. I was praying not to sound like I have a solution or I have something. I'm trying to make a living and I want people to call. No, I just want to tell Uzi Moses PhD PhD PhD the truth. He's my friend. I want to tell Uzi Moses PhD the truth, and I have this mission, if I am, is I'm a pioneer, I'm an Aries, whatever, I jump in headfirst. The renaissance of psychedelics is amazing, amazing, great. Tech is amazing. AI is amazing. But it's not it. It's not it. I'm just being honest.

Okay. That's quite a story.

We are AI, man. We are AI. We, we like, yeah, we were afraid of AI. It's, it's nothing, man. It's nothing. It's just a web scraper. Okay. With a chatbot. We are all like, hey, it's just, it's, it's, you know what a scraper is? We, we, we are AI. Like we can use AI. I like, I brainstorm. You want to use a good one? Gemini is really smart as far as brainstorming. The Google one. I love it. I have Claude, Gemini, ChatGPT. I love it. I pay for it. I use it. But at the end of the day, it's just like a pill. It's just like a substance. We forget it's just a helping tool. Do not mistake it for a second to do your work. It will never do your work. It will never. So anyway, I'm stopping.

Right. So, okay. So look now. I'll tell you, there is, there is an amazing renaissance, not only that people are starting to learn how to facilitate journeys, but it's also the substances are getting decriminalized on the federal level, and on some state levels as well. And it's becoming more common. Some people say it saves them, you know, 20 years of therapy, the traditional way, just one journey could do. So Yeah.

So over here in Israel, it's being used for PTSD, uh, and on the soldiers right now. It's amazing. Yeah.

I was just thinking about this before I, you know, when I was, uh, driving back from where I came to, to do the podcast, I was thinking, you know what? Uh, now it's probably a time that a lot of people are gonna be using it because all those soldiers and it's hundreds of thousands of people that just going through so much visually and it's a post-traumatic stress disorder that's just waiting to pop out. And now there is this psychedelic therapy that could just like make it happen and solve those issues a lot faster, a lot quicker in a better way. So for what I'm getting from you—

Yeah. There is, I spent time with people who were at that festival, the music festival, Nova, who were getting chased by people with machine guns and RPGs. And they were all on, the ones I'm specifically talking to, they were on heart medicine, okay? MDMA, ecstasy, whatever you want to call it, something that opens up their heart. And they told me they were embarrassed or ashamed or confused about how beautiful the world still was. They told me stories that they were hiding, okay, they're hiding, they're hiding in the bushes while hell is breaking loose. People are hunting them down like, you know, like in the movies, in real life. And they said that they were sitting there in the bushes hiding, confused of how beautiful the world is. And how people looked like angels to them. And they said that, you know, for them, being on the substance saved them. It kept them clear, it kept them going, it kept them moving. They didn't get identified, they knew they were watching a movie. I talked to a lot of people, some of them were on LSD, they knew, listen to me brother, I'm looking at the camera, they knew that the world is an illusion as they were getting chased. They were able to move through, they were able to not freeze, they were able to listen. Psychedelics is medicine, it's unbelievable. You just happen to talk to somebody from the future, okay? I'm telling you that it's all a show too, and I'm not trying to rag on it, I'm just being honest with you, it's another movie. It's another movie that we created. The substances we created, we created it in our stories and we needed it. It's good. I'm, I'm glad I won't lie to you. I just got this book yesterday. Which one? I can't see.

After the ceremony ends.

Because of the blurry. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Just got this book. So, so, so there's a lot of things coming out right now, you know, a lot of, a lot of materials, you know, and, and there is the whole thing about setting intentions. Before the journey. And, you know, when you use it the right way, you know, the result is just astonishing. You know, like what you're describing, the Nova victims, you know, chasing and with an open heart, still able to see the good, you know, and not letting the fear kind of paralyze them. Because I think that's the problem. If you let the fear paralyze you, then those animals will hunt them down.

I gave you personal— listen, I could have given you everything you wanted as far as— I can talk about the amazing— how the medicine works, why it works, why it's good, how to use it in intentions and certain settings. And believe it or not, today I did a delivery and I'm still involved and I guided some people who went on a journey. I'm doing today, right now, probably live. That's, it's my heart. My heart's there. Just because I grew up, just because it was my shadow career doesn't take away from the juiciness. I left, you know, there's a huge community that's been growing due to the journeys and the ceremonies that have started. Like thousands and thousands, it just keeps growing. You and I are storytellers, you know what I mean? So I'm talking to you like if you and I were, yeah, we don't, I don't know, maybe you smoke. I don't know. I don't smoke joints anymore. But if you and I would sit on the balcony, smoke a joint, this is what I would be telling you. And I think there is something to it because as amazing as it is, it's just important. It's just important for people to at some point something will click. Something will click because we become dependent on the stuff that works. We become dependent on experiences. We become dependent on the next fix. It becomes another religion. It becomes another cult. It becomes another thing. So I'm only, I really am, I'm like a friend from the future and say, listen, it's amazing. It's all great. It's all unbelievable. But let's not forget what the real thing is, you know, which you could never, you could never, you could never, you could never, you know, you can never do it. So I feel it's not against it. It's after the ceremony ends, after the ceremony ends. And there's too much, I'll be honest with you, there's too much, we like to grade, how do you say it? To edify things. We like to, you know, like, we like to bring up things, we like to catch the next trend. Idolize. Idolize, we like to idolize and to grandify things. Don't overlook the obvious, you know? The thing is, do not overlook the obvious and It's all good. It's all well. It's all amazing. And for people who are stuck, yes, like it helps you get unstuck. It helps you get unstuck. It definitely does. Just do it like you said with intention. The intention is for it to be a reference point, a glimpse, a glimpse. I hear all day. I live in Pakistan. Pakistan is like the tantra and medicine capital of Israel. Everybody's always going to listen to grandma and, you know, ayahuasca and listen to grandpa. Everybody's always going to do it. I'm telling you, it's a thing. It's a thing. Everybody's looking for the next message and the next download. Sometimes, sometimes you just got to, you know, got to be with yourself. That's it. Yeah. So I'm here. Like people call me all the time. It's my, it's my love. Call me when you need help, when you want to know, you know, when you can't get out of it, you want to set intentions. I'll be the first one. If I ever did it again for a living, if I ever did it again, first of all, I would only do it for like Palestinians and Israelis because that would be nice. I would just look at the medicine and I would look at everyone and say, can we just agree? Can we just agree that there's nothing outside of us? That whatever we're doing right now, it's all in there. The ayahuasca, the pill, the chocolate, the ibogaine, whatever it is, doesn't hold the intelligence in there. It doesn't. It's just software. That's all. It really is. It breaks my heart to say it sometimes because people really think that they're going somewhere else. People go take DMT and they go to the DMT verse and they think they're somewhere else. They're not. It's in here. It's all in here. And I've taken ayahuasca with Hasidic people and they see Rabbi Akiva and I've taken ayahuasca with Indian people and they see Ganeshes. Everybody sees their own projections. Sorry to say it. So it's not that I'm belittling or not. I am just being honest. There's nothing Nobody ever, ever, ever, ever, ever came back with anything new. People always say the same thing. Wow, I'm loved. Wow, I gotta take better care of myself. Right.

When it comes to psilocybin, like the mushrooms, right? Some people said that the mushroom themselves have like a consciousness. And that consciousness wants once that consciousness goes, you know, into the person, then it shows the person exactly what they need to see that is specific to them. What do you say about that? I mean, does it have its own consciousness?

Okay, so we are storytellers. It's all storytelling and it's important. Yes, mushrooms, this mycelium network has its own intelligence. It does maintain the, like the entire forest. Like it is all about connectivity. The mushrooms themselves is all about togetherness and maintenance and, you know, self-sustaining. It is the breathing. I mean, mushrooms are very special because they are alive. They have their own life. They are its own life form. Like people say that mushrooms is not a plant, okay? It's actually alive. So when you ingest it, on a technical level, when you ingest it, I understand that people want to believe and hold on to Ruach HaKodesh being from the outside. It's very similar. If you think that Ruach HaKodesh is from the outside, then yes. Now Ruach HaKodesh is always there. Outside is always there. The intelligence of the mushrooms is always there. What you're doing when you're taking it, you're firing up the same zeros and ones as the mushroom is the program. It's telling you, like, this is how you can experience life, but it's within you. Like, you are not experiencing the mushroom's consciousness. That's the Western culture that would love to believe that it's outside of them. You're experiencing what's already possible inside you. When you take DMT, it fires up that thing in the back of your mind that, you know, people know that before you die, before, when your heart beats for the first time, it fires up. That's the thing that blew me away 4 years ago. That's like this thing I'm preaching. Yes, yes, I've taken Bufo. I'm like, and you're like, you flew into space, but that space is in here. It's inside. It doesn't exist outside of us. That's the thing that's hard for us because Ruach HaKodesh, we are Ruach HaKodesh. Now you might not have access to it. You might need to fast for 40 days. Okay? You might have to be celibate. What's the whole point of being celibate? What's the point of Tantra? Why? What's the point of not, you know, whatever it is during sex, to keep it inside? Because when you keep it inside, you're not biting the apple. Can you see? It all comes down to not biting the apple, not releasing your energy outside. You are saying no. You're saying no. I am. I am. It's within me. I am who I am. And any, you know, Yude Vave is legit. So, you want to take the intelligence, you are swallowing the mushrooms, it fires up the same intelligence, the zeros and ones, it tells you, But the thing is this, it's within you. It's within you. That's the thing that's most important to remember. You meditate for 40 days, you go to Vipassana, and all of a sudden you hear God talking to you. All you did is you stopped being identified with the outside world. And the trap is to believe it's out there. That's why people do ketamine. Okay, ketamine is a great, amazing drug. People do it all the time now. Okay, it's like the thing, Special K they call it. Why do they do it?

Illegal in America. No.

Illegal in America. Why do they do it? Okay, you do it, if you've done it, you do it. You have, it's like you zoom out. Okay, it's like Google Maps and you zoom out. It's beautiful to zoom out. But if you think it's the drug, you're screwed. You have to understand that you just, you installed an app that lets you zoom out. That's all you did. If you, It's you gave yourself a reference point. Now, when I stopped, when I became like, when I stopped doing drugs, spiritual medicine or whatever, because drugs is just a term. It's not an input-output devices. That's all it is. I don't say it in a negative way, drugs. It took me a while, okay? It took me a long, like, I don't know, it doesn't matter. I was always impressed. I wasn't impressed with sober people. Sober is kind of dangerous, you know, when you're locked into your world and you think that life is real and you need you 401k and whatever, you got to go to the army, whatever. That's dangerous. I wasn't impressed with people who are always high because what are you going to do? You know, you always stretch that rubber band. It's gone. I always wanted to be sober and high. Okay. That's, that has been my goal. Then I realized that that's my life. That's my work. I have to do it. So first I became sober and it's difficult and I'm annoyed and I don't want to see people and everybody's annoying me and everything. But just slowly, slowly, I started to cultivate like, okay, what would it be like if I just took MDMA now? What would it be like if I just smoked a joint now? And like, you know, it's work. It's not the same. It's not as fast. No, it's not as fast. But like all of a sudden, what you cultivate inside you doesn't leave. It's real because you finally said no to the mirror. Because what most of us do, we go to the mirror, we don't like what we see, we change the mirror. No, dude, you can't change the freaking mirror. You got to change yourself. So I am a proponent, a big fan. We're not talking about medical stuff like people who— today, the person that I met, she talked about depression. I said, take a chocolate and just like take little nibbles. I'm a fan, but my responsibility as someone who has been on the front line, just to remind those of us who are listening, who are into it, just know what's really going on. Just know that you are literally reminding yourself who you are. And who you are, I'm not going to say it. I'm just not going to say it. It's for you.

Okay. So I think the biggest message that I'm getting from you today and the message for our audience that wants to experience psychedelic therapy in one way or form, like a guided one, a guided psychedelic therapy, not the recreational one, one that you set intention and you're actually working on stuff that blocks you. You're saying the biggest thing is it's all inside of you. There is really nothing outside of you. You are just getting more access to something that already exists within you. So now you have more access to see who you truly are and what you're really truly capable of, and you can find the healing within, because the soul, so to say, heals itself. In a way, you just need the keys, so, you know, to open that.

Yeah, proper flow, proper flow. You're taking something to put you back. I'm going to keep saying it. At the end of the day, at the end of the day, you're taking Anything you take, B'ezrat Hashem, God willing, your own God, any God, Allah, whatever, is for you to recognize that you are the one telling this story. That's cool. All of it, including listening to this right now.

Right. So you came up with this approach of somebody, nobody.

Ah, nice. You've been catching up. Yeah, I run this thing called Nobody School. That's what I do now.

Okay.

All right.

So tell us a little bit in short about this. What do you mean Nobody School?

Listen, it was Ram Dass, okay? Like he's got this movie I saw, Becoming Nobody. And he talks about that our whole life we're just trying to be somebody. And the point is to become nobody. And it hit home for me. And I realized that that's been my issue. I've always been trying to be somebody. And I was afraid of being nobody. But the truth is, we are a nobody. We come here from a soul, right? So our soul is a nobody born into a somebody in a forgetful state, right? We got that little flick here. Forgetful state. And the first thing we think is we think we're real. We think it's real. That's the game.

We are the body, right?

Yeah, we think we're somebody. And even worse, part of the trick, society tells you, you are broken somebody, original sin. Your parents tell you something, your school tells you something. You look on TV, you're like, I am a messed up somebody and I have to be a better somebody. So that's act one. And in Nobody School, I go through four acts. And we do it through writing and introspection. So Act 1 is being born into somebodyness. So we identify what taught you that you are a broken somebody or what role models of a better somebody. Just look at that. And then what caused, which is the motivation. It's by design. It motivates you to go on the journey. Yeah, I want to go look. Instead of the hero's journey, I call it the healer's journey. Act 2 is somebody. Somebody is what all the movies are all about. It's what Western culture is all about. It's I am successful, I'm rich, I'm famous, I got love. Because what are we trying to do? We're trying to get something from the outside. I need more money, I need more sex, I need more love, I need people to know me. That's who I am. I'm a somebody. And how does somebody get better? By gaining things from the outside world. That's act 2. Now, in every good movie, because I learned that it's a combination of screenwriting and what I learned in shamanism, in every good movie in the middle, there's a glimpse, there's a moment of truth where the hero, you, recognize, I remember, and so many of them, so many moments where you're like, I'm accomplishing all these things, but I'm not any happier. So you recognize the truth, okay? You recognize that I'm gaining things from the outside world, but I'm not any happier. But it's not enough to know the truth. One must reject the lie, which is the next two acts. Act 3 is in the movie business, it's a bad guys close in, all is lost. Basically, your worst fears catch up to you, forcing you to blow up your somebodyness. Everybody's got that midlife crisis in the old way. But now people experience it almost, you know, a lot sooner. When your somebody-ness blows up, it has one function. I call it the autocorrect. When the autocorrect moment, you ask me about it, when my wife told me she doesn't want to lose the kid, when, you know, you get divorced, whatever, got your autocorrect, it only has one function, to send you inside. Dark night of the soul is a method. The reason why they call it dark night of the soul, because the soul can only see in the dark. That's right. Dark night of the soul is called that because the soul can only see in the dark inside in space. Life is mostly space. Earth is most, you know, the universe is space. It's not matter. So only in space, only in space. And here is where most people go back to somebodyness. They're like, I want to try it again. I want to go for the next job and the next wife and the next drug and the next journey. I can't wait to try the next substance. I can't wait to have the next girlfriend. I can't wait to try a better career. Okay, fine. Then all the way back, another autocorrect, another autocorrect. Like, look at Israel and Palestine. They're trying to go from the outside. Now, Act 4 is the missing act. That's what missing act is. When you stay in there long enough, you get, you see. You see that I just think I'm a broken somebody. As a matter of fact, I see the illusion that I'm a somebody altogether. What I've been afraid of all along, to be a nobody, is who I really am. So you remember, you remember that the truth is you are a nobody experiencing itself as a somebody. God split itself up into a billion pieces to experience itself. So Dharma, nobody's school, is really about the integration, realizing that nobody alone and you're just somebody on the mountain meditating, somebody alone, you're an egomaniac. The whole purpose is to realize that you are nobody dreaming up somebody, to accept your role. I didn't accept my role as an urban shaman. I didn't accept my role as whatever. To accept it, to accept it, but not to be identified by it. I'm a great dad, but I don't really think I'm a great dad. It just comes naturally to me. I'm not a dad. I'm a human being. I happen to be a dad. I'm a husband, but I'm not a husband. I'm also a husband. You know, the point is to integrate nobody and somebody, to realize that you are not one You're both. And for that, I decided, like, I managed to, like, basically come up with a writing program that we take people through the 4 acts. And it's crazy because I've only started teaching it and people have, like, people get so, when they discover their lie, like, what is the lie? What is the lie that you're protecting? Where in your life Do you believe that you're so broken that you're doing whatever it takes to get it from the outside? I call it the four addictions, okay? There's four main addictions. There's addictions in the mind, which is for approval. Same-sex addictions, you know, non-romantic. I want approval from my fellow man. There is addiction in the heart. I need love, sex, intimacy from the opposite sex. There's addiction in the body. Substances, how you look, drugs, food. And the greatest, most elusive addiction is spirit, outsourcing your salvation. You know that one. You know, something on the outside will discover me, will save me. Once you realize that you're struggling with these addictions, that's why I run Nobody School. That's why I love it because the recovery process is crazy. I lose right now like 25% don't show up to the last act. They don't show up. I get it. Because the ego is going nuts. Once the ego hears, like, what do you mean? Like, what, you're not going to depend on me? No, I like you. I love you, ego. You're just not the only thing that runs the show. You know, my teacher used to say, there's nothing wrong with ego. The only problem is Identifying with one ego. Be a good dad, be a good husband, be a good shaman, be a good podcast host, be a good businessman. Just don't bite the freaking apple.

Got you. Oh my gosh. Oh yeah. I have so much questions to ask you, but we are kind of running out of time. I could like literally go for days to catch up.

Invite me another time.

Yeah, absolutely, definitely. And I'm glad that you are willing to accept. So definitely it's going to be another episode because I wanted to also ask you about different experiences with different things, with people, reactions, the journey, the stages. I know you did like a 7-stage journey thing. So there is a lot. I've been following you. You've been my friend that I love, actually. And I think you know it, that I love you as a human being. I think you are an unbelievable person. And, I'm just so glad we had this opportunity to do this podcast. And, definitely, we're going to invite you in the future to share more with us. And, a lot of success with the Somebody Nobody School. I love the whole concept of it is unbelievable. So, it's beautiful. And, I'm sure it's going to be very successful. So, Orya, thank you very much.

Thank you.

Any last thing you want to share with the audience before we go?

I mean, I would love, you know, people to come on 4 weeks course. That's the, you know, for nobodieschool.com, you know, give it a try. That's, uh, sounds good. Come, come, come help me. Come help me remember who I am because woo, it's a doozy out there.

So they can be on, they can do it online or it's only, uh, frontal?

No, online, man. This is, we are adults now.

So they can be all over the world and they can still go to Nobody's School. Fantastic.

They can go to the Nobody School. You know, I'm a tech guy, so I have a whole platform, you know.

Okay, fantastic.

All right.

So yeah, so guys, so, so what's the website again?

Nobodieschool.com.

Nobodieschool.com, guys. All right, brother. We'll see you soon. Thanks for seeing you.

Laila tov.

Bye-bye.

Bye.