83. Mastering CLV for Profitability with Valentin Radu

Valentin Radu, the founder of OmniConvert, shares his expertise on how brands and retailers can increase their customer lifetime value, conversion rates and profitability. Valentin shares his journey from a struggling. Valentin is a CLV expert and he shares with us his journey from struggling with profitability in his early ventures to discovering the crucial role of CLV in business success. We discussed the direct connection between lifetime value and profitability, emphasizing the importance of measuring and improving customer retention. Valentin also highlights key methodologies and actionable steps for businesses to optimize their clv, such as segmenting customers, gathering feedback and experimenting with new strategies. Listeners will gain deeper understanding of the importance of customer centric approaches in E commerce, the challenges companies face in shifting their focus from acquisition to retention, and practical advice for improving customer value and driving sustainable growth. I'm really excited to bring you this conversation with Valentin. I'm sure we'll learn a lot from him and that this conversation will be both engaging and informative. So let's get started. Welcome to the Ecom Pulse, your heartbeat to the world of E commerce. I'm your host, Eitan Kotter. Join us as we meet with industry leaders, marketing experts and the innovative minds behind the tech that is shaping the E commerce future. So plug in, gear up and get ready for a pulse pounding journey into the heart of E commerce. Hello, Bucharest. How are you, Valentin?

Hi there, Eitan. It's all good here except for the rain.

Really?

We're doing great.

The rain. But it's a sunny day or it's like cloudy?

No, it's cloudy. It's like London.

Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, but cheaper, I guess.

Yeah, much more cheaper. For sure.

Yeah. Wow, great. So Valentin, I really appreciate the time. You are the CLV expert, right? So please tell us a little bit about yourself and your. I mean, the things that you're working on.

Yeah, so I'm, I'm an entrepreneur, serial entrepreneur from, from Bucharest, Romania. I'm. I've been doing this for, for a long time, for more than two decades. I've started OmniConvert, which is a company which is focusing on helping e commerce and retailers to grow based on conversion rate, lifetime value and net promoter score customer experience. We're a team of 40 people really, really determined to help E commerce and retailers. I founded the CVO Academy back in the days because I got obsessed with lifetime value. And to give you some context, I was support started by my wife back in the days. Even though my company was doing, we were making something like 14 million in annual turnover. So imagine not being Able to be enough profitable so that you can have a decent salary and be, be, be sustained by your wife. And that struggle led me to investigate what the heck is going on with the profit? Where is the profit? And I realized that lifetime value is the sure path to profitability. So pretty much now I'm obsessed about it, wrote a it and I'll be glad to share some shortcuts with you and the audience today.

Yes, of course. Obviously profitability is like a major theme, right. For any brands these days. What is the connection between the lifetime value and profitability?

Well, it's a direct connection. Without the proper lifetime value, you don't have profit. Because when you look at, from let's say P and L perspective at any company, you look at things like EBITDA and so on. But profit at the end of the day, in order to be profit profitable on an aggregated view, you need to be profitable for each and every customer. So lifetime value is the predicted profit by customer according to the lifespan. So basically without being profitable for each of your customer, you can't be profitable as an, at an aggregated level, yes.

But sometimes you go to a new market and you start from scratch, right? I mean the, the, the stage in the evolution of the market is probably early. Some of them it's more mature. Other markets are in their penetration phase or growth phase. It's usually a combination of things, right?

Yeah, for sure. When you go to other markets, you still sell some products which are, I mean unless you are building something completely out of this world, you are selling some products that have a certain adoption, that have a certain frequency of being purchased and being used. So you can still forecast what kind of lifetime value can you get according to the price, the margin and the purchase frequency that the products that you're selling will have. So that taking that into consideration, it's, it's clear that you can forecast the, the, the lifetime value by having some assumptions from the markets that, where you are already present.

Maybe just to put more clarity because these, the like, there are so many terms that are being used quite naturally like profitability and EBITDA and cash flow and free cash flow. Obviously if you have cash flow, most of it goes to new inventory. What's the healthy parameters or characteristics of a healthy brand in terms of the way that his profitability looks like and the free cash flow.

Yeah. So when it comes to health, it's, it's for sure in an ideal case, when you calculate things like lifetime value or profit, you calculate them in a vacuum because you don't know the future. We can see what's going on. So basically we can't have predictions for more than, I don't know, two quarters, to be honest. But what you can do, though, is to understand the context that you're in. So I'm a big fan of Runway, for instance. So you need, you need a certain Runway. And when I say Runway, I say if you are you. If you will continue as you are continuing right now with the, the current unit economics and the current money that you have in your bank and your, your, your debts and your liabilities, how many months ahead do you have as a company, as a brand? Right? So basically that's, that's an important thing because if you are burning money, how much, how many months can you burn in this, like you are doing, doing it today? So I, I prefer to have more than one year Runway, for instance, so that you, you're to be, to be on the safe side and to be able to, to be honest, to experiment. Because you, as a company, you can't say that. Yeah, it's. I'm 100% sure that if I do this, I'll get this profit. No, you basically shoot in the dark somehow. Right? And that's why the cone of uncertainty, you know, it's like this. Instead of being like this when it comes to the future, when you have this type of unit economics, like if I have a Runway to support some experiments and I have some hypothesis around this experiment, like if I invest in this new product, in this new market, according to this unit economics that I have, according to the, to the past, those things can happen. But I'm. When it comes to the ratio, let's say, depending, it's heavily dependent on the vertical there that you're in. Because if you're in grocery retail, let's say an EBITDA of 4% can, can be great. You know, while when you are in fashion, it's, it's crap. So basically, you need to look at the, the verticals that you're in. You need to look at the margins that are being used in the verticals that you're in. One healthy metric, though, to share is the ratio between lifetime value and customer acquisition cost, which usually is three to one. So basically, it means that if you are making three times more money that you are than you are spending to acquire a customer, you're on the safe side. And you can consciously alter this. I mean, you can go to 2 to 1, 1.5 to 1. I don't know. We've all seen Jeff Bezos. Right. So he always reinvested everything. So he, after 19 years, he got to profitability. But that's because he had a lot of free cash flow from the, from the investors.

Investors. Yes.

So pretty much that's, those are some, some things to get take into consideration when it comes to, to health. And of course, when you look at a number, it's always important to see the context of that number because the, the, the context, the contrast creates meaning. Right. So now we have a 3 to 1 CLV to CAC ratio, but six months ago we've got a 4 to 1. So we're in trouble because this is going down. Yeah, but if it was 2.2 and now it's 3 to 1, that's great. We are making way more money, we are more, way more profitable. So that, that when you look at numbers, in order to investigate the health of any company, you need to look at the trends as well and to create contrast like year over year to take into account the seasonality, month over month to see the trend and the benchmarks of your industry. So if you have this type of free, let's say models to look at where you are, then you'll have a pretty good image about what can you do. And, and I must say this, that progress can't happen if you, I mean, outstanding progress can't happen if you do the same things that you always did. And that's why I love this type of experimentation, mindset. So you need to, when it comes to growth, if you want to disrupt the market, if you want to do radical things in the market, if you want to acquire the market which is there for you to be acquired, you need to do disruptive things. And those disruptive things can't be, can, can be made without having the risk resources. And that's why you need this type of way more granular ways to analyze the health of your business. And that's why I love lifetime value and customer acquisition cost and customer acquisition cost, payback time and all these things that matter. Because in a vacuum, maybe you'll do great. But if you don't have the cash flow to support the return on the investment that you're making, you will still be out of the business. And that's rule number one. Never run out of money. Right?

Sure, sure. So what I hear you say is LTV to CAC obviously is important metric, but it needs to be calculated over time and try to understand the trend. Is it improving? Right. Or there are some problem that we need to Highlight or to identify, sorry, quite in advance. And I know there is a lot of focus about cac, which makes a lot of sense, but we know also acquisition is getting more and more difficult and more and more expensive. And I think in the context of ltv, let's probably chat a little bit about retention and how do you generate more from your existing customers. I know it's important aspect of the things that you do and obviously in today's macroeconomics.

Yeah. So retention, it's. First of all, it was a hype at some moment that, hey, let's stop acquisition. It's all about retention, which I think is stupid. It's like you, you need only one wing to fly. I mean, you don't need the acquisition, you need only retention, but you need both of them. So you need to acquire customers and to keep them for as long as you can so that they are profitable. So retention happens due to three factors. The. And those factors are what you say, what you promise. Right. What kind of value proposition you had. Because if your expectations that you're setting are here, and the reality is like here you have this gap, this is disappointment. Right. And nobody wants to be disappointed again. Yeah. I mean, if we, if we keep on being disappointed, we end those relationships in our personal lives and with brands and companies and whatever, we do the same thing. So the first pillar of customer retention to happen is are you fulfilling your promise or are you selling inflated promises? That doesn't make sense. So that's the first pillar. Yeah. The second pillar is what you sell. Right. So basically it's like when you are selling something, when you are doing marketing for a product which hasn't been bought before, you're making a promise of a better future. But is the better future there? I mean, what kind of products are you selling, which is still about the disappointment, right? So basically you either diminish the expectations and increase the reality so that those two are matching, or you do vice versa. You, you increase the reality, you increase the quality of your product so that you match the expectations that you've set with your market. And then the fourth pillar of retention to happen is what you do. Because nowadays you have plenty of options to buy the same freaking things. And that means you need to wrap your, your product and services with an outstanding customer experience, which means what you do. Right? So basically that's why those things, what you say, what you sell, what you do are important to improve customer retention. And in order to make it happen, you need to investigate if you are doing the right things. On all of those three pillars because you can't do one without the other.

Obviously it makes a lot of sense to under deliver under promise and over deliver. Right. But on the other hand, we know e commerce is all about impulse purchases and you want to upsell and you want to sell and you want to push people to or shoppers to make a purchase. So it's a very difficult balance, right, to come up with the right messaging and delivery. How do you know that customers are not satisfied and not happy with whatever you promised or they have some sentiment which is probably negative?

Yeah, that's one of my best areas of expertise. And to give you the track record, Eitan, I was running this, my third company. It was an online car insurance company, the one that I struggled to make it profitable.

Okay.

And I discovered these things like customer retention, customer lifetime value conversion rate. And at some moment I, I started to ask the customers on the thank you page, like how happy are you with the purchase? And then how happy are you with the entire process? You know, post, post delivery. And you, you go there and ask. So it's so simple. I mean, and few are the companies which are closing the loop. Most of them are activating the standard growth growth flywheel, which is you pour money, you acquire customers, maybe are profitable. With that profit, you acquire more customers and that's it. And that's a flywheel. But the advanced flywheel requires feedback. So you can't activate the, the, the secondary flywheel so that you go into the next level without customer feedback because you close the loop with hundreds or thousands or dozens of customers, depending how many you are, how big you are. And you ask them, you go out there and ask them how happy they are, what is their satisfaction, how hard it was for them to buy and to use the products. And then with that feedback, you change two things. You change the products if that's the case, or the services. And you change the customer experience. Right? So you basically change those things and those lead to customer retention and word of mouth because if they are happy, you make more of them become advocates for you. So that's how you, you, you find out what's going on. You, you go out there and ask them. So that's why I'm a fan of initially customer research, to go in depth, to segment your customers, to look okay. Because not all the customers are created equal. So if I have a very loyal customer, his opinion will matter more to me than if I have a one time customer that bought a pen or something from me, which is not so profitable for me. So you get feedback, you wait, you give different weights to the. To the feedback, depending on who are the customers that gave you this feedback. And then you get the ongoing pulse of your customers. We created basically a product, an entire product around customer experience to collect the nps, the NET Promoter score, to collect the customer effort score, to look at the things that matter, and to be in a position that you can, for instance, change what matters. And the beauty of collecting customer feedback is not only to have a metric, but to collect actual feedback. Like people which are shouting at you, hey, you did this and then that and then the other, and you haven't fixed it. So if you get the issues from Open answers right, you will be in a position to know what to change. Because if all you are doing is tracking the numbers, I mean, yeah, it's great to see the trends of those numbers, but it's even better to find the root causes and then to fix them.

Interesting. Valentin, you wrote a book about this topic, the CLV Revolution. Okay, so tell us about the book and the methodology. You're.

That's the one, yes. Oh, man. So. So first of all, I. I got these questions from prospects, from customers, from new employees, from old people. You know, I mean, all sorts of people were asking me, okay, and what. What do I do to improve the lifetime value? And I kept on making these flows and presentations and whatever. And at some point, I. I've got this aha moment, you know, when you. No, I have to write a book. And that happened back in 2021. It took me nine months to start writing it. So in 2022, I've started to write it. Two years in the making, and working with hundreds of e commerce companies with brands allowed me to put everything I've learned about lifetime value in this. And I wanted to make it not like a theoretical, entertaining nonfiction book. No. So this is like a freaking guide. I mean, you take this, you do step one, step two, step three, and then you do that, take care of the other. And basically, there are also stories of actual customers that at this step, this customer did that, and that's what happened. So basically, that's what the book is all about. And to give you the overall methodology of customer value optimization, you start with the unit economics, so you measure what matters. You continue then with the, let's say, customer segmentation, like understanding how this. How your customers are doing from a quantitative point of view and then from a qualitative point of view. So ask them what's going on and then understand the anomalies, like where is the problem is with the first pillar, which is what you say, I mean you are overpromising is with the second pillar which is the product that you're selling. I mean you're selling crappy products, which is the worst nightmare to have. Like if you, if your product is broken, no amount of marketing will fix it because people don't want to buy crap for the second time. And or is it with the third pillar which is with the customer experience? Right. So like this flow at this time moment, I can't return the product, I can't do that, nobody's answering, where is my order? Stuff like that. So when you, after this point, when you do this type of investigation, you improve the customer journey consciously. So you decide at this point, you do that we'll stop selling these toxic products, we'll start selling these amazing products and then you fix things with this type of initiatives. Like there are basically six important moments throughout the customer journey. You have the acquisition and then you have the onboarding, then you have the prevention, then you have the referral, loyalty and reactivation if you lost them. Right. And that's how the framework around the CLV revolution looks like.

So it's really a hands on tool, right, that brands and retailers can use. What are the challenges that you find in your work years of working with those companies in terms of ltv? Is it like trying to understand what the data shows? Is it like how to implement its technology? What do you see the gaps and the main challenges of.

Yeah, the main problem is that to be honest, most leaders are brainwashed by the acquisition market. That's the main problem because they keep on throwing a lot of money at Google Ads, Facebook ads, whatever, and they have this over reliance on acquisition. So in order to change that, it needs to change the mentality and to migrate from a product centric and order centric mentality to a customer centric mentality. And to do that you need to re educate, let's say the leaders of the company. So that's number one. Because companies have this inertia of adopting new things. They start to monitor things like lifetime value and then they go back doing the same freaking mistakes. So the problem is not to analyze and not to investigate because most of the companies can do that or to do a snapshot like hey, that's our lifetime value. Okay, now what you found it? It's $240. What do you do about it? Yeah, so it's the action part is the experimentation part which is the main problem. And the maturity levels are so low nowadays that few are the companies that they even plan to have one single action eitan per quarter. That's it. One action, one experiment, one thing to improve the lifetime value. One freaking thing to weight. I mean they don't do that. So. And then it's like trying to lose weight at the fitness, right at the gym. You, you can measure all day long. I mean you can go there on the scale and say, oh, oh God, I have 95 kilos. No, it's not about going there every diamond and seeing what, what's your weight? It's freaking stopping to eat burgers at 10pm and doing some, some work. So that's why you need to measure lead indicators, not only lag indicators. So revenue, profit, ebitda, whatever, these are lag indicators. These are the results of some actions. But if you don't change the actions, how can you change the results? And I think that's the main problem. Companies don't set goals around the lead indicators like number of actions per quarter, per month, per year.

Well, what do you mean by lead indicator versus, you know, lag indicators?

Yeah, so lag indicators are, are around the, the, the things that happened due to the past actions. Right. When you, when you have lag indicators, you, this is, these are descriptive numbers around the past, like what's your weight, what's your height, what's your whatever. Yeah, what's your revenue, what's your ebitda? These are lag indicators indicators. Lead indicators are around the process. Right. So lag indicators are around the results. We all want the results. We all want the ideal weight and having a, an amazing beach body, but that's the outcome, that's the result. That's the lag indicator. The lead indicator is how many push ups are you doing a day?

Like how do we get there?

Right. Yeah, exactly. How many times we go to the gym, how many nights I'm avoiding to eat after 6pm These are the lead indicators. And the lead indicators are far more important than the lag indicators. Once you know the lag indicators and once you have a target around lag indicators other than that, you simply measure things. These are important indeed. But if you don't also measure the things that lead to these outcomes.

Yes.

You're screwed.

So give me an example of some of those lead indicators that you currently see in the market.

Yeah. So one lead indicator for instance is number of experiments per month. Right. So how many experiments around improving net promoter score you do per month or you do per year? What is the time to first response. Yeah, this is in your control. It's not about the market, the nothing. I mean you can allocate more resources, you can respond faster, you can have another target around. Hey, when people are calling us, we're there for them in maximum one minute, not in three minutes. Or another lead indicator around. This could be the number of, let's say campaigns, automated campaigns, flows that we are running at any given moment. Let's say evergreen campaigns could be prevention campaigns. Right. Like how many flows we've set in motion. Yeah, to prevent customers from churning. That's another lead indicator. So those are the ones that you should be focusing on and to have active. Because if you don't have them active, your maturity level is just where we're aware that we're fat. That's all. Yeah, we have the aware. We are at the awareness phase. We are not the action stage.

How companies can know what are the important items to put more attention to. Obviously there are so many things that needs to be improved, but there are priorities, Right. That completely influence LTV and profitability. How do they know how to prioritize?

Yeah, I think it's a math game. So you have, you have to know math and you need to know modeling. You know, you need to look at your own data. For instance, we have something which is called the E commerce growth formula. For E commerce companies. You have the parameters, the dominant numbers that if you, for instance, many things that in E commerce is around Traffic multiplied with the conversion rate multiplied with the aov, which means growth. But growth requires other things or to look at other things. It's an incomplete formula. Traffic multiplied with the conversion rate leads to customers. Customers multiplied with their lifetime value leads to the profit down the line. So basically it's how many customers and what's their lifetime value? Because you have these three levers in order to grow any business, unless you have, I don't know, a contract with the government, it's around getting new customers to buy, making them to buy more often and making them to buy more. So you increase either the number of customers, either the purchase frequency, either the average order value. These are the three main levers of growth. So you need initiatives around this. And when you do an analysis and when you look at where you are against the market. Yeah, I'm okay in terms of the traffic, I'm okay in terms of the aov, but I have a low purchase frequency according to what we are selling. So that's the thing to focus on. So basically you need this type of research to understand where to focus first.

Yes, yes. So let's talk about cvo. Right. Customer value optimization. Probably. Let's define it initially and what is the methodology around it.

Yeah. So customer value optimization is the, let's say, conscious process that a company gets through in order to increase customer lifetime value. Yeah. So that's customer value optimization. The faces are pretty obvious. Like in design thinking, you start with the initial diagnosis, so you do the, let's say the, the definition of the main metrics, the dominant numbers, then you model them around and you see, like you've said earlier, where is, where should you focus? You, you define if you have a customer value optimization problem or if you have an acquisition problem. Yeah. Because if you don't have enough customers and if based on your model, you could increase your profit down the line by increasing the traffic by 20%, not your purchase frequency by 20%, then you focus there. So then once you decide, yeah, it's doable and it's okay to do customer value optimization, you go into the research in depth. Customer research, which is quantitative and qualitative. Quantitative analytics means you look at the customers, you look at the products, categories, the buying patterns and buying habits. And then the qualitative research means you get customer data, you interview your best customers. For instance, I'm a big fan of rfm, segmentation, recency, frequency and monetary value. You get your best customers, you interview them, you go in depth with them, you find what's going on, you find their jobs to be done with your products. Because people don't buy products, they buy the progress that they are making with the product. So you find the progress and the words they are using to articulate the progress that they are doing. Because many, many times we are, we know too much about our businesses, Ethan. You know too much. I mean we're, we like fish in the water and we, we can't get it. Yeah, that's why we need customers to translate in a simple way what is the thing that we are doing? What is the thing that we are selling. So this process is eye opening many times. But I mean we, I've seen this.

Ah, interesting. What is the transformation that brands are doing to their customers? Right.

So yeah, so the, the off. Once you have that, then you change your messaging, you change your marketing, you change your, change your position. And let, let me give you an example. With the, with the company from Australia, their name is Pain Plot. So they were selling this type of canvases with, with pictures, paint by numbers. Right? They were numbers. Like number one is green. Number two is red. And people were doing a fish deer, I don't know. And they were thinking that they are selling these things for, for, for people to become better artists. That was their assumptions about their business because that's how they've started the business. We do the RFM segmentation, we analyze their customers, we do interviews with them, we investigate what, how they are verbalizing. Why. Why are you buying so often? You know, because you get your best customers and you investigate them them. Guess what, they were buying these products not because they wanted to become artists or anything. They were single people, you know, that had nothing to do except for looking at Netflix during the pandemic. And they wanted to do something that ease their minds and made them feel about, feel good about the, the themselves, you know.

So basically kind of a self therapeutic process, right?

Exactly. Yeah. So, so that those were one, that was one job to be done. They were of course people which were looking to, to have this, these things and the third type of customers and the third type of job to be done. There were these parents that bought this to their kids to get them into making other things than freaking scrolling on their phones, you know, because I found the statistical next last week I found out that the average teenager is scrolling 8 miles per month. So imagine.

Wow.

Yeah. So, so basically with this type of aha moment they started to do other type of marketing. Building other landing pages, doing other email. Email marketing, onboarding afterwards. Because many companies are being fooled by these discounts. Someone bought this from us, let's bombard them with the discount right away. No. And so basically their onboarding looked like this. They were convincing their customers to finish that painting because why would you buy another one if you haven't finished the previous one? So in order to buy one you need to finish that. So they've asked for their statement through the email that in how many days do you plan to, to. To finish this in 20 days. Okay, sign here. This contract with yourself, like the virtual signing that. I'm gonna finish the painting in 20 days and we're gonna give you a daily reminder. So they asked, they got the permission to bombard them with emails like hey, what's your progress? You know what? In 20 days you're gonna finish and stuff like that. So, so that's how you do customer value optimization.

It's really deep, right? The whole marketing, messaging, everything is different. Onboarding just make a huge impact on everything that the company is doing and messages. Nice. So Valentin, you're an entrepreneur for as you said, for more than like two decades. What are some of the career highlights that you can share with us?

Oh, yeah, the first job, I was a butcher for three hours, as I stated in the book as well. So my mom bought. I mean, it was summer vacation. I was playing football all day long and she, she dragged me to this place and I was supposed to do meat meatballs and it was like garlic and smell and you know, when those guys with that blood on their, on their equipment, when, when I saw that, I ran away. So that was my first, my first job. And it was a great highlight for me because it convinced me that, that, oh, man. So in this life, I can't get away with it. So if I'm not doing something very valuable, I'm gonna spend my life in a freaking place like this. That's a highlight. Another one was when I built my first company, of course. So we were playing Starcraft all day long in Counter Strike and we were paying too much on the Internet because we haven't got broadband connection. So I borrowed money from my boss and I bought broadband connection with some friends. We've built a local area network in our neighborhood and we eventually brought optical fiber. So it was high speed broadband connection in the entire neighborhood. And we were like rock stars. I mean, all the neighbors that had relatives, I mean, people flew from Romania to wherever, you know, they were moving to Germany, Italy, you know, you name it. So they were pleased that they can have a proper Internet connection. And basically that was my best, my first strike. And that convinced me that, hey, success is possible. You can do things and people can buy them and you can not only be wealthy about it, people will be grateful that you sell that to them. So that's another highlight. And of course, when I realized that I can build OmniConvert, so it was like after my first company, we increased the conversion rate by 60% with the ancestor of one of our technologies today, OmniConvert. Explore. And after one year, we made it. I mean, we were way more profitable by doing experimentation, changing the website, changing the messaging and so on. And that convinced me to run OmniConvert. And I turned it into a pretty amazing place to work. And we have all sorts of customers from all over the world.

Amazing. Amazing. And any fun fact you're happy to share with us?

Oh, fun fact, yeah. So my, how I learned to sell. So it was like I was in, I was in, in deep shit. So after my third company, after my second one, which we got bankrupt eventually, I was. I needed to have €40,000. So I, I got really bad, so bad finance, management, you know. So I got to this guy, I called him and it was my last, my last resort. So it was a guy which was in, in his 50s. He, he thought that he knew everything. He got it all sorted out. So his, his desk was like here and I was looking from him right here. So I was looking like that to him. So it was a power pose that he imposed on, on me and I, I, I played it completely differently. So instead of selling our solution, I've, I've, I've planned the seed of fear in his heart, you know, so I've started to, to, to state things about his competitors coming from abroad. I've shown, I, I've said that I haven't seen a, a website more ugly than his one because it looks like he's in from the 90s. So basically I've started to throw at him with the things that he did and he was on the verge of throwing me out, but he asked the question like, and can you fix it? Well, if you can afford it. So basically I switched the context because, and I learned this about sales. If you are not confident and if you are not playing the game, I mean in the B2B sales, you, if you are not perceived as being an authority, that solves a pain, you know, you can't close the deal. So basically I, I've said goodbye to this guy. He asked for an offer, I've sent him the offer after four days. So I, I could have sent it in the same day. And he called me for the offer and when he called me, I've said okay, he got the hook, you know, the, yeah, I got him now. So, so that's, that's how I've, I've learned these things about changing the other people's behavior.

That was a bold move, but quite successful one.

Yes.

Great. So Valentin, how people can find you and where can they find the book?

Yeah, so you can find the book on Amazon, the CLV Revolution. You can see some reviews from there if you're not convinced about it. As for me, I'm a LinkedIn guy so you can go to search for Valentin radom link on LinkedIn. I'm trying my best to, to post there and to give some, to share some insights every, every day. And as if you want some solutions to, to grow your E commerce and retail, to grow the conversion rate 10ps or lifetime value, you can go to omniconvert.com but for God's sake, if you think I can help you write me a message on LinkedIn.

Great Valentin. So thank you so much.

Thank you Eitan. And thanks everyone for watching listening to this.

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