Breaking Into VC: Tanvi Lal on Rejection, Recruiting, and Corporate Venture

You know, recruiting in so many ways mirrored dating. To me it was, it was a little too much like you are meeting a bunch of funds, you are trying to show them why you're worth their time. And you have to be good and like interested, but not too interested. Right. If you're too interested, it kind of feels like something's off. And I think there were a number of friends I spoke to where they were like, hey, we really like you and like you're cool and you're smart, but like this role is just not for you. Which is what I feel is the professional friend zone of there is an acknowledged value, but it's just not a fit.

Today on vcfm, we're joined by Tanvi Lal. She's an investor at Intuit Ventures and co founder of VC Unleashed, a non profit helping more women and people of color break into Venture. She's written one of the most practical guides on VC recruiting. She's helping founders navigate the rise of corporate vc. And she's got bold takes on why AI in accounting might just be fintech's next massive frontier. Tanvi, we're thrilled to have you here. Welcome. Like, let's start today with your story how you broke into vc, you know, the focus of your fund and we'll see where the conversation goes.

Awesome. Thank you, John. So glad to be here. Appreciate you and Peter having me on. So as you know, as you mentioned, I'm currently at Intuit Ventures. I've been here for almost two and a half years and I joined post MBA. Like a lot of MBAs do, they kind of find venture during your program and, and you kind of make the jump. So backtracking a little bit. I worked in consulting right out of college. I had the distinct joy of implementing workday HCM along with other such projects which kind of ties into the accounting and the ERP stuff we're going to talk about later, which super relevant and I really, really enjoyed my job. I think you come back to the old piece of advice of if you don't want to be your boss, then maybe it's time to look for something new. Which is more or less where I landed. I, I to date think I have some of the best professional experiences through my consulting role. Super grateful, but just knew I didn't want to be there longer term. So like every good consultant, I went and got my MBA to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up and discovered Venture through my mba. It took me a really, really long time to land a venture role. So excited to get into all of that as we keep talking. And as you mentioned, I co founded VC Unleashed, which is a nonprofit focused on just increasing racial representation and getting more women into venture. Started that during my mba. Really just born out of the frustration and personal lived experience of just struggling to break in.

Love it. It's amazing. So I want to talk a little bit more about this journey into VC before we dive into Intuit and AI and accounting and so forth. You said that VC has the worst recruiting process you've ever seen. Why is it so broken in your opinion?

It's a great question and for context, you know, I implemented HCM processes at large companies when I was in consulting and like people spent so much time thinking about the candidate experience and the recruiting process flow. And so you know, I had this whole like companies care and like want to make sure you have a good experience and are excited about working with the mentality coming into venture and you know, things look and feel very different. The, the number one reason why recruiting is such a, such a mess in, in, in VC is because you're really not incentivized candidly as a venture fund to have good HR or recruiting processes, right? You're essentially, your goal is to return money. Your goal is to make investments, nurture the investments and make sure they exit. And so really you're not incentivized to, to invest time, resources, energy into hiring, into keeping people at your fund, into things like that.

You're almost disincentivized, right? Because like every person you hire is like less money in your pocket if you're a gp.

Yeah, absolutely. And like especially if you're trying to be partner at a fund, it's so difficult because to your point, the GPS have to say, well, I'm going to have to give you my carry. Why should I do that? And you know, I think beyond that there is maybe even a little bit of a lack of expertise within venture funds on like what good recruiting looks like. I find a lot of folks have never been in a, in an environment or in a place where they like part of their job is to be a good people manager. Right. And when you think about those things is when you're thinking about having stronger recruiting processes. So again the incentives just aren't there for you to be a good people manager in venture, unfortunately. And so, and I'm sure you guys have seen this, it really just is the team and the people that you end up working with, a lot of them, a lot of individual folks do care. It's not to say that nobody does, but it's just about finding who those people are and making sure you're able.

To work with them.

The other piece is just that resources are constrained, teams are small, and there's so many smaller shops. There's no standardized process like you typically have with large enterprises that is consistent across different companies. And so the other piece that was really difficult about recruiting was you just. You have to, like, adapt and figure out what the fund's process is, what are the things they're looking for and the things that would be so hard. The thing that was so hard for me was, you know, you would get feedback from one fund about, let's say you're sourcing, and you're like, all right, cool, I'm gonna rethink the way I explain my sourcing strategies the next fund, and you come up and they're like, yeah, we don't care about your sourcing. Like, actually, we have a problem with the way you explained your diligence. And you're like, well, crap. So it's like, really, what makes you successful is not, like, learning from your past experiences. It's like, what am I learning in real time in this conversation? And how do I quickly pivot to make sure that I'm sharing what you need to know? I think that that switch took me a really, really long time to, like, crack and figure out. And it wasn't until I hadn't gotten, like, five final rounds that I finally realized. But then when the Intuit job came, I knew I had to just, like, put out all the stops to make sure I landed it.

I love it. What do you think is, like, the number one mistake people make when they try to break into Venture?

You know, I think the number one mistake is they don't have a good reason for why they want to work in Venture. I. I hear a lot, and I'm sure you guys do, too. You know, they're just. They're excited about startups, they want to work with founders. It's cool and fun to be talking to people building in the next frontier. All of which is accurate.

Don't forget that one. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, sure. Five to 10 years, actually, 10 to seven to 10 years.

It's a lot. Well, that's the reality, but people don't realize that that's the reality. Right. But anyways, yeah.

I mean, I would love it if someone would just honestly tell me, like, hey, I'm in Venture because I want to get rich, but then, you know, be like, great. Like, I hear that you are a professional capitalist, you better want to get rich if you're going to be in this space. It's just not going to come very quickly.

I feel like it's hard to get rich in vc. You can make some good money, but if you really want to crank it.

You got to be a founder 100%. That's where like most of the wealth comes. I agree.

Yeah.

But yeah, I just think that people will have these answers for why they want to work in venture. And I think anytime someone can say, well, you can do XYZ job instead, that's when you kind of don't have a strong answer for why venture. Like you could work at an accelerator. You could do like part time angel investing. You could be in a platform role. Like what is it about investing that is sort of interesting to you? And I think people don't talk or think enough about the fact that you're like kind of a portfolio manager. Right. You have to think about building a diversified portfolio. You have to think about how you nurture and exit your investments and you have to just like doing deals. I, I think venture is so similar to sales. So I wish people, when people come to me with like a deal person, like, I like sales, I like hustling, I want to be in a job that rewards that. And that is paired with my like interest in technology and finance and analysis, then that to me is a compelling yvc.

Yeah, it's interesting. I do a little bit of coaching with people who want to work in venture. And that's always my first question of like, why do you want to work in venture? And it is always surprising. I mean it's less surprising now because it just keeps coming up. But I remember the first few times just being surprised that people didn't really have a good answer. It was kind of like what you were describing. They were kind of meandering and, and, and it was interesting because it's like you hear their re, their reasons and you're like, I don't know, a venture is what you actually think it is.

Yeah. Or like it doesn't have to be the only way you can meet your goals. Right. Like, why don't you look at other options? It's kind of, it's like so it's so time consuming to break in. It's like if you're not 10,000% bought in, like I would just say find, find the other path that makes you happy, you know?

Yeah. I read somewhere that there are as many jobs and venture as there are in professional sports. And so if you think about like, how challenging it is to become a professional athlete and like, make a living doing it, to your point, like, there's probably a lot of other areas where you could get all the things that you want that are a lot easier to, to get into than Venture, but yeah, absolutely.

And then I, I think, you know, the people who, if they make it in and they didn't have a really strong, compelling reason for, for doing it, you see them leave the industry pretty quickly after as well.

What's your strong, compelling reason? What would be your answer?

Of course. So I was an English major in undergrad. And I always tell people the things you feel insecure about, you have to find a way to make them your strength. Because everyone looks at English major and they're like, what are you doing in corporate America? I interned in asset management companies in undergrad. Everyone was like, what are you doing in finance? Anyways, so my reason is that much like my English major, which I loved and enjoyed, Venture includes analysis from like all of these different sources. You put it together, you form a thesis, and then you basically like, pound the table for why your thesis should exist and make sense. And that is actually exactly what I did in my English lit thesis my senior year of college. I looked at over 50 different sources. I put together a thesis, and then I had to defend it in front of a panel of really, really accomplished, intelligent professors about why my research made sense and was important. And honestly, it was one of my favorite things in college, which is such a nerdy thing to say, but I loved writing my thesis. And when I found Venture, I thought, hey, here is a job where I get to. I am rewarded for thinking and doing work in a way that's super intuitive to me and that's super fun for me. So why would I not want to have a job that. Where that's, you know, exactly what you do? So, yeah, I love the market analysis. I was excited about skills I would need to develop. So, you know, needing to get more of like a deal mentality, needing to build a presence, needing to build and nurture relationships. So it's a good balance of something that I am excited and good at and things that I get to learn and grow as a person, as a, as a profession, professional.

That's a good story, Peter. Are you similar to that or different?

I mean, I enjoy that part of it, but for me, I think the thing that I love the most is twofold. It's. I'm just a very curious person and adventure. You just, you get to learn about so many different things and meet different people and different perspectives. It's just like drinking from the fire hose, like every single day. And I love it. So I like.

You miss the, the intellectual variety. You know, like, one day you're looking at health tech and talking to health tech leaders, the next day you're talking to AI leaders. I. I love that I stumbled into that part of it.

Oh, nice. Well, that's impressive. I like, need some type of a focus. I don't know how generalist investors like you all are are able to stay sane. I was like, fintech, that way is large enough for you to have that. But I, I would struggle real hard with the healthcare company.

I also like helping people just generally. And it's an interesting avenue to be able to be a small part of, you know, someone else's bigger success. The one downside, and this is the thing that I dislike the most, which is not unique, is telling people no. And that's probably why I have a very, very healthy. Well, I don't know if it's healthy, but I have a very strong addiction on Kickstarter and have backed a lot of projects. Cause I can be like, oh, yeah, yes, here's a hundred bucks. Go, go build your dream. Um, but yeah, those are the things that drive me in it.

So I, I went into venture initially just because I wanted to find the next. So my example was Omniture. It was one of the first. One of the first tech IPOs in Utah. And I was like, I want to find the next Omniture before it's big. And how am I going to do that? And so my why was if I hang out with a bunch of, you know, like VCs or whatnot and work with them, then I will see it. And then my why then shifted because then I had the choice to choose between, hey, I could join what the company I was looking at at the time was lucidchart. It was just like one founder. They're now, you know, ready to. I about ready to ipo. But the time I'm like, I could join this company or I could continue the VC route and get bits and pieces of all these companies.

Yeah, you gotta love watching this scaling rich.

I think it was. I mean, that was part of. It was like, I'm. I'm gonna work harder than anyone else for the next 10 to 20 years. And I think my goal was, I want to be a millionaire by the time I'm 30. I just want to hustle. So, yes.

That'S a totally legitimate reason, by the way. And I tell people that too, like, when they're like, we're talking about the reasons. And like, look, if. If money is the thing that drives you, it's fine. Just be honest about it. Right?

Fully.

But it's taboo. Taboo.

It is taboo. It is. So one of the things that you said elsewhere that I thought was interesting is you call VC recruiting a barter system of social capital. That. What. What does the, like, give, before you ask, really look like in practice?

Yeah. You know, when I was recruiting, I really, really candidly, like, hated the fact that everyone's like, you have to show up with, like, deals and insights and, like, make it worth somebody's time. I might have a reframe of you show up with all of that, not to make yourself worth their time, but to show them why you are good and why you. You deserve to work with them, work in the space, et cetera. And it. It's just like a slight reframe of, like, no, I'm. I'm showing up and I'm telling you I'm smart, and I'm. I'm demonstrating that. And like, to me, that is more what it should be. And, you know, referrals are key when you're hiring. If you like a role, you gotta get someone to flag your name with that partner or with, you know, the hiring manager, whoever. And it takes social capital, number one, for you to ask someone to do that for you, and then it takes social capital for them to make the referral. And I noticed when I was recruiting that I had maybe like three to five referrals I could get from any one person before they were just like, dude, I'm tired of. Of doing this for you. And, like, you're on your own. So I started to get a lot more cautious about who I was asking, which roles I was asking for. And I. I actually, I had this experience where I knew this pretty senior person in Venture. Not, like, extremely well, but, like, they definitely knew who I was and they'd seen some of my work. And, you know, I asked them for a referral and I kind of just. It did not. I did not get a good reaction from that. And I think that, again, really showed me how important it is to be careful, intentional, and smart about how you ask for these referrals and making sure that you're giving some value back for the people who are actually stepping up for you and actually doing things that are helping you. And I just think it's a good reminder now that I'm on this side to be kind when someone asks me for the 10th referral, and I'm like, oh, my God, when will you leave me alone? But then it's like, hey, I remember being in that position where you're, you're stressed and you're, you're kind of, like, desperate at some times, or you're like, I really want this role. I can't get it. Like, please help. So I try to just keep that with me and like, remind other people. Like, you know, when you're in a recruiting position, you're not doing your best, so just gotta be kind and understanding as. As it comes. And I'm on the other side.

Yeah. I love, I love how you reframed it because I think a lot of people cynically look at it and like, oh, I, I gotta do all this work to make, you know, source deals and stuff for this VC through the interview process. But really the social capital that's most valuable that you're building is like, before the interview even happens, ideally. Right. Whether it's people that are referring you or with that venture fund itself and just like, trying to add value. Because I think too, like, in our fund where we have all these students, there's like, students that don't really add a lot of value while they're with us in the intern program. And those referrals are the, like, the hardest. Like, I hate, I hate them. Right. Because I don't have anything really good to say.

I know.

And it's, like, annoying. But then on the other hand, like, the students that go through our program, that absolutely crush it and like, put in a ton of time and effort, like, I'll, I'll do like 50 referrals. I don't care. Right. Like, they've built up so much social capital with me that, like, I'll go to bat for them all day long. So I, you know, I think that's, that's a really interesting insight of, like, where, where you should spend your time if you're trying to build up that social capital.

Yeah. And I, I think every investor thinks about things differently, Right. Like, when I'm doing chats with people who are interested in venture, I'm. I'm not trying to source or learn from you. I mean, if there are things you bring up that you maybe have experience with, I'd of course love to learn. But, like, I'm doing this to give back. I'm doing this because someone did it for me. Right. So I, I think the people who show up to the calls and they're like expecting value from like, I don't know, a college student or like an MBA grad, MBA student who's like trying to learn. It's just like you're kind of setting yourself up for failure. Like, just, just don't take the call. You know, you don't have to respond on LinkedIn. You can say no to the intro. And sometimes I do that where I'm like, I just kind of don't have the time and the bandwidth and I'm not in the right attitude for this. Like, I'll just say no to the call and I'm sorry, I can't help, like, find someone who can better, is better positioned and in a better place. And that's also okay. There's no need to sort of push someone to prove their value to you. Take the call. Like, I just don't fundamentally agree with that.

Yeah, I agree with that. I just think from the recruiter sound or for the, the person trying to land the job, it's always good to like, approach it of like, how can I add value to this relationship?

It's in your best interest to impress and create a good impression. But like, I'm not expecting you to do that if I've taken the call.

Yeah, same.

I'm, I'm glad to find someone who agrees with me. I, I get some, I get some spicy hot feedback takes when I, when I share that mentality.

So what do people say? Are they like, no, you gotta take every call?

No, I think it's more just, you know, you're busy and why, why shouldn't someone kind of come through with deals or insights for you?

Oh, I see. Yeah, it's only worth my time if you make it worth my time. No, I, I agree because I mean, honestly, it's very rare that somebody's gonna actually add real value. But that also ends up being like a really interesting gauge of like, if they come to me and they actually bring like a super interesting deal and can connect me and like, I'm always like, super impressed. And then I'm like, yeah, how can I return the favor? It goes a long way. But like, I would never say it's a requirement.

So anyways, Peter would never be on this podcast if I had not sent car to his way.

Good deal.

Now. Now he's on a podcast every week. Sucked him in.

That's how you got him. Nicely done.

So you went through a lot of rejections. It sounds like tough path as I think everybody that ultimately ends up in venture Does. And you described rejections as the professional friend zone. I'm curious, what is. What does that feel like? And how do you push through it?

Yeah, you know, recruiting in so many ways mirrored dating. To me, it was. It was a little too much like you are, you know, meeting a bunch of funds. You are trying to show them why you're worth their time. And you have to be good and, like, interested, but not too interested. Right. If you're too interested, it kind of feels like something's off. And I think there were a number of funds I spoke to where they were like, hey, we really like you, and, like, you're cool and you're smart, but, like, this role is just not for you. Which is what I feel is the professional friend zone of. There is an acknowledged value, but it's just not a fit. And from your perspective, when you want the role, it's really frustrating. You. You are like, you want a reason, you want to know what to work on, and you want to know how you could have changed the outcome. And people just don't have answers for you sometimes. And you have to just learn to be okay with the fact that it didn't happen and you don't have a reason. And there's not always a reason in. In. In life for why things happen. And the way you sort of can process, get through it, get past it is. Is, like, what you have to figure out. So I had a number of friends who had similar experiences, too. You know, we would have weekly zoom calls and, like, swap stories, swap tips. And I think that really helped the most is just sharing the experience with people who got it and who understood. So I always encourage people when they're recruiting or if I'm talking to, like, a group, I'm like, you guys should stay in touch with each other, because someone who's experiencing the same thing as you is going to resonate and listen to you in a very different way than someone who isn't.

And it's probably extremely helpful for your mental health, if nothing else.

It really is. You're, like, cool, I can cry about this. And you're not going to, like, make fun of me or something? Like, that's nice.

And you kind of get it because you. Yeah, you were crying last week.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

So love to transition to corporate venture. So you eventually landed at Intuit. Talk to us about maybe, like, as a transition, how is that process different? Because Intuit's a big company, so I would assume that they had a less broken process.

Yeah. So they certainly had A more standardized process that is, you know, more akin to their enterprise, their overall enterprise process. But I, I think the case and the way to land the job was very, very similar. Where my case interview was, find a company that's relevant to Intuit and write a memo about it. It was actually the broadest and like the hardest case because not only were you expected to demonstrate, number one, I know what's relevant to Intuit. Number two, I can find a company in a stage that's relevant. Then it's like, well, how do you want the information structured? How much of a financial analysis do I have to do? All of that was like, very much up for grabs. And I mentioned, you know, I, I had not closed a number of final round interviews. And then I, I, I think there was like six or seven months until the Intuit opportunity came. So I had been spending that time, like, writing my own theses. Like, I did a lot of content on medium around fintech. What I was excited about for the year. And I was trying to make small angel investments just to start kind of building my own investing muscle. I was like, maybe I just never get a job and this is what I do instead. So when the Intuit opportunity came up, I was like, all right, I have to pull out all the stops. And I had an MBA classmate that was at a startup that was actually thinking about their Series B, which is kind of the core area where we invest. And so I pitched that startup. I really reframed from what would be best to Intuit to, like, where do I have access to the information and, like, how can I make this work for me? And yeah, my boss told me, he was like, you're the only person who pitched a live deal. And like, that's what made you really, really stand out. And I introduced the founder to the team and, you know, that's how I landed the role, which was really, really exciting.

Pitching the live deal.

All of it.

Yeah.

I heard some really good advice from another coach around getting a job in venture. And he was like, he ended up landing at Lightspeed. And he went and he found a bunch of like, really interesting companies. And he was like, I have an interview with Lightspeed. Can I pitch your company?

And they're all like, that's so smart.

Absolutely. So then he got all of this, like, inside scoop data on the company. And then to your point, right, like, live deal, you know, and that's so.

Smart because you have the, the financials, you have like key information about them, and it's like a little test Right. Like how can you show you have access to the ecosystem? And I'm not asking you, you have to show me. And really you could only show somebody. You can't tell them what your access is. Right, right. That's incredibly smart. I wish I had done that or thought about that.

So let's talk a little bit about corporate venture. So it seems like I saw something recently. Somebody was posting on LinkedIn and they're like corporate ventures back, you know, because there's, there'd been some new funds raised or capital allocated. What do you think are like some of the, the pros and the cons of both working as well as maybe taking money from a corporate venture fund?

Yeah, absolutely. So I actually didn't have a strong perspective on whether or not to join a CVC program. I, I think when the job came up I, I was like, I want to do fintech. This job will enable me to do fintech. And I, I really, really liked the team. So I think the first and foremost thing that I tell people is like, do you just like how the CDC invests? Like, understand what they do, understand how they think about investments and like, do you just like that is the number one thing. So every single corporate venture program is like a special snowflake. Some of them are purely financially driven, a la Google ventures. Some of them are fully strategic, like they only invest for commercialization, you know, co creating or co building products or services together. And most of them fall somewhere in the middle. So Intuit Ventures, I would say is a 5050 split. You know, we invest for financial return, but there has to be strategic overlap and relevance to our customers or our product base for us to invest. A lot of CVC programs will require a BU sponsor or some commercial terms prior to an investment. And those types of programs are typically slower and more concentrated because it takes longer to get that buy in. So I think it kind of depends what you want. CVCs are a mix of partnerships, BD and investing. So it's kind of cool to have that, all of those different skill sets rolled into one job. And it's kind of not like some, some weeks I'm spending like 40 to 60% of my time more on the BD and the strategic side. And I don't get to spend that much time investing. And some weeks I'm only doing investing. Right. It kind of varies. And I think the other important consideration is like, where is the money coming from? If the money is coming from your corporate's balance sheet, like your corporate is basically your LP and You're expected to do things that give you the right to use the money. Right. So what type of strategic insights or engagement or partnership are you giving back to the bu so that you can use their balance sheet dollars? Some CVCs will fundraise from external LPs and then you kind of get into more of a traditional model where, where even when you're a traditional fund, you have to do things back for your LPs. So kind of think about it in that way. And I can get into pros and cons as well, if that's helpful.

Yeah, I think that'd be great.

Okay, so I'll talk maybe about just my own experience where pro. The biggest pro by far is not fundraising. It is nice to be a balance sheet investor from that perspective. And I think you come to the table with like a lot more brand name and like power and pull than you would depending on which institutional fund you land at. Like, everybody knows Intuit, right? I, it's my first venture role and I get so much access just through the name and I'm so grateful and appreciative of that. And like anyone in Fintech will talk to me right now. Whether or not they take my money is another story. But just being able to get your foot in the door is hugely beneficial. And you know, I, I think the other part of being really successful in CVC is like knowing your org well, right? Like who are the PMs you ping, who are like the VPs and the directors who you know are going to help you either from partnership lens or just like get good feedback. So I, I think that's the other pro is like you have a huge network of experts that you can tap into. But the caveat is you have to learn how to do that and you have to do it really well and you have like, it's stakeholder management all over again. It's back to the social capital of like, if I'm constantly sending these PMs bad companies, they're going to stop responding to me, right? So I have to make sure I'm smart and I'm adding value to them in some way for them to keep talking. So yeah, the pros are around fundraising. It's around like the power you have as a large enterprise. It's around, you know, the brand name. And I think the other piece that's, that's great is like where you sit in the org. So at Intuit we sit alongside our M and A team and our corporate strategy team. So getting access to see how those Teams work has been incredible and really, really helped my learnings. So all of that's been great. On the flip side, again, money always comes with strings, right? So what is the level of insights or strategic value you're expected to drive back? And some of it can be fun, some of it cannot be. It's just that part can be a little tedious or a little frustrating at times. But overall it's not been a huge issue for me. The other piece is certainly that, you know, depending on the program you're at, you could move a little slower or you could kind of run into some just like organizational processes that are not optimized for the way venture works. We try to move pretty fast, but like, we have to have a side letter. We need to have certain rights as a publicly traded company. And sometimes someone's like, hey, I need to give you an an. You need to give me an answer in a week. And I'm like, I, I can't. Like, you have to cover our legal checks, we have to negotiate the side letter. And I can only tell you yes after that. So I, I think four weeks, which is, you know, what we can do on the fastest side is a very good turnaround. And I, I just can't do the whole give me your money in a week, which has actually meant that like missed out on a few deals. And, you know, if I was at a traditional institutional vc, I probably could have done that if I felt bought in enough.

Especially right now with AI startups raising in a week. Right. I mean, it's just nuts.

Oh yeah. And like we follow we can't preempt or lead rounds, which is hard because there are companies that have raised really big rounds that I've been in touch with for a while, who I've known are to be important, relevant that, you know, I could have preempted something maybe a year ago. Instead now their bees have passed me by and like, I didn't, I didn't get allocation.

So yeah, yeah, that's challenging. I've heard from others on the CVC side that like another kind of con of working there is eventually you kind of hit a bit of a ceiling and frankly, like financially and so you have a lot of people that they kind of hit that ceiling and then they transition out to a more traditional fund where the pro is, you don't have to fundraise, but the downside is because you don't fundraise, you don't get kind of the upside potential of, of that. Any thoughts on, on that?

Or yeah, I think again, it depends on how the program is structured. But typically there's just like one managing director or one like head of the program, right. Where you don't, you don't have like four or five partners who are kind of running it together. So you're totally right. You hit a ceiling. Unless you are going to be that, you know, the head of the program or the partner there. And again, it depends on the program. Like, you may or may not get carry, right? Like, I don't get carry. I'm comped just like a rare Intuit employee. Like, I get stock, which is pretty sweet. But you're not going to see the generational, like, returns on, on stock in the same way you will from carry. So it depends, right. It's almost like I could maybe have phenomenal money for this carry in 10 years. Or I'm like, well, I'm getting RSUs now. I'm like, it's like now. So it would be great to have Carrie, don't get me wrong. But I, I think they're, I, I, I, I'm not particularly frustrated with the comp structure and I think that the time to value and the time to cash is like an important consideration as well.

Yeah. Well, and there's also a, you know, you're probably, you are definitely a, a really good investor that would have a lot to carry, but of course.

Thank you.

There's like, you know, I read somewhere that like more than 50% of VCs never see a carry check anyway, so.

Yikes. I also like, the carry would be nice. But I'm okay to get actual stock.

Absolutely. What about from the founder perspective? Any advice for founders, pros and cons?

I think it's largely the same around, just make sure you understand the way the program is structured. Like, what are the incentives for the program? Why does it exist? Right. And I, I think it's super important to like, push on, like, or just ask. You can push. I've had some founders push and I think it's very warranted on. Like, well, what have you done with other portfolio companies? What is the value you bring? And like, why should we make room for you? Right? So I, I think the, again, it depends on the program. But like, the way I think about it, in at Intuit, it's like, hey, we write minority checks, right? Like, it's an option. Call that maybe something great happens and we commercialize your business. You get an awesome press release and like, tons of traction. And at the very worst, like, we're a Small check in. We're not on your board and we're not going to be a huge hassle in your face telling you how to run your business. So like take the call option and let's, let's stay in touch and like, let's work on it post investment. So I, I think to the extent you are able to find a partner who has a lot of value, they could bring you and they're not taking a huge seat and not getting in the way of your day to day, I think it's a great option. And I think more broadly, like I, founders will sometimes get a couple of term sheets, right? They'll get a really aggressive term sheet where one fund is taking up most of the round and they're like, hey, I probably don't have room for you if I take that round, if I take that term sheet. And then you might have a term sheet where it's a little bit more piecemeal and they're like, oh, if I take that one, I have room for you. And actually I learned this from one of our, our, our port co founders where he was like, hey, I told the guy, like, think about how you want to run your business, right? Like do you want somebody who has a majority chunk and is going to be more involved and have a lot more power or would you rather have like a more piecemeal thing where you know, you kind of control more as a founder and you know you're not getting a majority stakeholder, you're not finding you're not getting a majority stake stakeholder in the company and I really think it looks different per founder. Like you may want the majority stakeholder, you may want someone to have more power and more skin in the game, right? And no judgment or you may not. But I think a lot of times founders get like so excited about the big names and like the valuations that they don't think about this. So a little bit about working with CVCs and like the value we could provide and like a little bit of just how, however you want to structure your term sheet and your ownership.

The other thing, I'm, I'm curious your perspective on this. I also think that sometimes founders have this, I don't know, they give too much weight to the VCS that are like, well, we need to write this big a check and if you want our money, you have to take, you know, all of it and you know, you can't let anyone else in because as a co investment fund, I've never seen a tier one fund that Says that actually follow through with it if the founder actually pushes back and is like, no, I'm gonna cut you back a little so that I can bring in people I care about. Right. Like an Intuit as a co investor. Because if it, if it's a hot deal and they want to write such a big check, they probably are going to write any check they can. Right. To get into the deal at the end of the day. But I don't know, what do you think? Am I off or have you seen.

No, I, I think you're spot on. I think a lot of it matters on like number one, like I find the first time founders have a hard time artfully managing this. And I think number two is if it's one of these big funds that like was a previous investor and is now re upping, they already have a bit more leverage and advantage from an ownership perspective. And I think you know what a lot of these funds will do and like I've gotten this too of like, hey, if they can come to the table with like split specific terms and like a clear contract and way they're going to add value, like then we'll let them in. Otherwise not. And I, I think it's your prerogative to take that call. But I think that you know, a successful CVC strategic partnership is long term and you know, if you're giving me like even a month, there's no way I'm going to be able to give you like a definitive commercial agreement in that time. So again, you have to be aligned with the option call. And I think from a CVC and like a co investment lens, like part of what makes you successful is you have strong relationships with these funds or with board members and they can advocate and tell the founder and the other investors why you should be a part of it. And so that's one thing I've really learned in the last year is like, oh, it's not just the founder relationship that matters, although that is the most important. It's like who are the people they're talking to and how do I make sure I am a clear contender in their eyes as well.

Yeah, I love it.

Yeah. Why, why just have one stakeholder when you can have five? Am I right?

Exactly right. More, more people around the table to help.

Yeah, exactly.

So in the last little bit, I do want to talk about AI and accounting.

You've said, of course, how could we not?

Why do you think that there's such a huge opportunity in AI accounting?

Well, first of all, I must say that anything that I say about accounting represent my own personal views have nothing to do with Intuit or even Intuit Ventures. My team may have unique views too. Look, I think AI is around to automate manual tedious tasks and I think nowhere do you have that more than in the office of the CFO stack. And specifically within accounting, I think the biggest value add that AI ads and LLMs specifically add is this contextual understanding that they can incorporate into products so that you can have a better output that is like personalized to you, to your business and the way you like to see things. And I think that is the level of automation we've never had access to and like the type of automation we've never had access to. And so you have just so many ways you could think about AI accounting and just the broader ERP space. But I think that's the core and the crux of why AI and why their accounting automation now is in a very different place than it has been. I think again the past has been a lot of checklists and rules based configuration that just didn't meet the bar of what you want an automation platform to do. If you're still managing 30 to 50% of the transactions, is it really automated. And yeah, so that's kind of initial thoughts, but happy to share a little bit more maybe on like what the market looks like today. Talk about some of the crazy fundings we've seen. Tell me what's helpful.

Well, let's talk about maybe where, let's double click on where the opportunities are that you're seeing.

Yeah, so for me, you know, one thing I've noticed with like all of the like the rillets, the campfires, the dual entries of the world in a lot of broader like CFO tooling AI companies is they're really serving B2B SaaS and other startups. Well, yeah, and that's great. I'm excited about that. Lots of opinions amongst VCs on whether that's a big enough market to drive like a big winner. But I think the opportunity is to find other verticals and like really win there. There are some interesting plays I've seen in E commerce and construction that are compelling I think like healthcare, manufacturing, all areas that you just don't see a lot of heat, you don't see a lot of excitement, interest. I think that's where you're able to really, I think that's where the opportunity is. And I, I have my doubts that an AI model serving B2B SaaS today in accounting can effectively serve like a healthcare company, right? The, the expenses you incur, the integrations you need, the way your books are managed and closed looks so different. So I, my opinion, my personal opinion is that even these, you know, existing players today are going to need to expand their model like vertical by vertical in order to actually become like the next netsuite or actually become a full erp. I think that's kind of the piece of the discussion that's missing for me as we're seeing these huge funding rounds and people are saying this is the next netsuite is like, okay, what are maybe the market signals we have that show they're going to be able to serve as wide of a customer base as NetSuite does today. And there is a very good possibility that I have just missed all those market signals and they're right there in front of the investor's eyes. But I'm not getting a sense that it's there right now.

Yeah, why do you think that is?

Well, I think there has just been a ton of excitement and interest in these companies and frankly just like a push to get ownership before others do. So folks are sort of rushing in with the funding and the valuations that you typically see like much later as again, it's like an option call of maybe this works really well and is like, you know, a 10 20x exit and if it doesn't like, it doesn't. But we took a big swing which is like the interesting thing about venture, as I've learned when I started playing blackjack, you really make the most betting on the hands you double down on, not by just playing the most rounds. So it makes sense to take a really concentrated bet if you're super bought in. I think what it takes to get me bot in is just a little bit more and that's given from the fact that we do more growth stage. And I would expect to see more growth stage metrics for the round on the size, but there's very likely possibility again in five to seven years. I'm listening to this podcast and I realized just how wrong I was. But that is the fun of this game, huh?

Yep. Yep. Well, I wonder too, and this is something I've been thinking about a lot is a lot of these companies do have real revenue and they're growing revenue super fast. But I wonder if it's if revenue is a little bit like the new vanity metric and that it's something people tout but doesn't actually result in long term value creation or, or doesn't signal it in the same way it has historically. And what I mean by that is, in the same way that VCs are rushing into a bunch of these deals, I think customers are kind of also rushing into a bunch of these press products without knowing if they're actually going to work yet. Like, I've definitely spent money on several AI tools that promised something and I bought it and I used it and it didn't fully complete the promise and I'm not going to renew. But that company did get like couple hundred bucks from me. Right. And so how many other people are like in a similar bucket up and down that stack? I don't know. What do you think? Do you think that's.

Oh, I think you're spot on. No, I. Absolutely. I think you're spot on. Like, look, there's a lot of interest and excitement to learn and see if these tools actually do what they say. Right. So I am sure you're going to get interest inbound, especially with like all the press that these folks are getting. But it's really going to come down to your renewal rates, your like ndr, all of those typical metrics that like, you would want to see.

Um, and you need like a year, and we don't even have a year for some of these.

You need multiple years, honestly, like, you need at least like two years to, to get a good gauge. Um, and I think the other piece that I'm sort of seeing and hearing is like, you have to like dig into what these startups are calling ARR payments. Companies will term their revenue ARR, which is not true. It's just revenue. Right? It's, it's transaction. It's not recurring, I think. And I've, I've heard about some startups taking like, taking their pilot revenue and turning that into ARR and just like all kinds of like funky math. Because some of these AI companies, like, they just, they grow so fast. You're like, how did this revenue happen? And I think part of it is what AI can do and part of it is just like a little bit of what I call founder math, which is doing things like making pilots, annualized revenue. So I think anytime something looks and feels too good to be true, like, that's spot on. So I look at some of the stuff, I'm like, it's great. I would, I am thrilled that you were experiencing this traction. But like, if something looks too good, we'll figure out what it is at some point.

Yep, yep, exactly. Exactly. Any, any companies that you're super excited about that you're either invested in or not.

Oh, that's a good question. So I did a lot of work more on the commerce side around some of these done for you marketing platforms that I think are just like phenomenal and just like really under the radar. So three that I really like. One is owner.com, not so much under the radar, like a really big series C recently, but they do really like a fantastic product for SMB restaurants, like true SMBs. And they're automating a lot of marketing tools, really driving revenue for businesses. So I really like them. I really like a company called Topline Pro that does something very similar for home services. And again, they're like finding ways to add value to like five person businesses, 10 person businesses. Like it's hard to acquire customers like that man. And it's hard to keep them on because they have a really like low willingness to pay. So it's just like doing really well. And then a third is called Firm Pilot that does automated marketing for law firms. And you know, met that team for a while now. And it's just I think really when you can use AI to drive true ROI for customers, you're like, look, I gave you more business, like I made things better for you. And I think nothing wins the customer relationship and like the trust like doing that. And I think you have the opportunity to expand into so much more and like just do so much more with your product once you win that customer relationship. And it's hard to get done right. But like I think three examples of some really good products and if you see or if anyone sees all the resi, I want to know and I want to meet them.

And so wrapping up. How do they find you?

How do they find me?

How does our audience.

Oh yeah.

Or follow you or engage.

Yeah, find me on LinkedIn. And yeah, if you want to chat, just like add a little note so I have context on like who you are, how you found me and what you'd like to chat about.

Well, thank you so much for joining us for the podcast today. This is a super fun discussion and really enjoyed your insights on how to get a job in venture and the pros and cons of CVCs and then also your hot takes on AI and accounting. Super interesting. So thank you.

Of course, thank you both so much for having me on. It was great to share my thoughts.

Here and thanks for joining. I learned a ton of.

Oh, glad to hear.

I'm going to polish my resume.

Amazing.

Yeah, I did a live deal. I'll come to you. We'll be like, here's 10 deals. They're live. Let's talk about them.

Oh, my gosh. I'm like, I must hire you all 10 times. Then let's go. All right.

Well, sounds good.

All right, thank you, guys.

Thanks.