Flowing Together: How To Build A Community That Thrives with Michael Lovitch

What do you think it is that allowed you guys to build a culture that is so strong and identifiable?

We didn't want a group of people wanting to emulate us or learn from us. We wanted to create a group that learned from each other. I was part of like figure masterminds and all those things back in the day, right? There's always some guru I had to listen to, and I'm like, I don't care. I don't want to listen to you. I'm watching the other people here. Get out of the way. Anybody who thinks they're a big deal, we don't want them. We like the entrepreneurs who did it because they wanted to be free, help some folks out, were into their shit, but not in it for the status games. I'd rather have a nice, kind, fun, have-your-back person who's number 3 in the industry than somebody I can't stand who's number 1 any day of the week. The most important thing is who do you want there? Who do you want to be around, right? What do you want out of it? And then start going like, who are these people? What do they want? And build it around that. If you're trying to make money at the beginning, they'll see that. Show that you're investing time, show that you're taking all the risks, show that you care so much that you lose money to do it. Don't do this for the money. It's not the best— the business model is terrible. If you're doing it for that reason, you're going to fail right away.

What does it take to do the impossible? What does it take to level up your game like never before? What does it take for individuals, organizations, for even institutions to achieve paradigm shifting? Nothing is ever the same again.

Breakthroughs.

Our mission is to decode the neurobiology of flow and cognitive peak performance. Access the minds of maverick scientists, groundbreaking innovators, and world-leading experts to understand what it takes to achieve ultimate human performance so you can feel your best, perform your best, and accomplish your boldest goals. I'm your host, Rhian Dorris, and together with bestselling author Steven Kotler, I present to you Flow Research Collective Radio. Michael Lovett, welcome to Flow Research Collective Radio. It's great to have you here, sir.

Good to see you.

Yeah, you too. So I'm going to start with an intro. So you are a formal special education professional, an overeducated grad student, and, uh, supposedly— and I'm sure these are your own words— floundering tech sales guy who decided at the age of 34 to take the entrepreneurial path because nothing else was working. And you started a publishing company in the psychology space, which is going to be of interest to all of our listeners, which ended up going to 7 figures. And then you parlayed that into a physician-based nutritional supplement company, Real Dose Nutrition, which ended up with annual revenues of over $50 million before you sold your stake. And now you are the co-founder of the Baby Bathwater Institute, a community that helps bootstrapped entrepreneurs navigate the crazy world of business ownership while having good times and making lifelong friends. First question, Lovic, is how you describe Baby Bathwater, because on the website it says, you know, what is Baby Bathwater? Is it a mastermind? Is it a conference? Is it a group? So, so what's your answer to that?

We're still figuring it out. Um, it's not a mastermind, that's for sure. I say now it's— and yeah, the word community is really weird, right? Um, I think it's a community. It's a, it's a fledgling community of bootstrap entrepreneurs who have each other's backs is kind of what is becoming. Some people, like, there's visionaries. Like, I think like a Kotler, like, he thinks ahead, he plays chess, and he has a vision. My business partner Hollis and I, I think we're checkers players. I mean, I think we started it with like more out of let's show people how much what they do sucks. These masterminds and these entrepreneur groups and that we were frustrated with them and we wanted to show it didn't have to be that way. And there was a lot of like, we don't do this, we don't do that. And this, what we did arose out of what we didn't want to then it mattering to now it becoming what it is. And we kind of figured it out. And so I'd say now it's kind of a community of really kind entrepreneurs who have it basically are there for each other, actually help each other out, and are kind that way. Natural givers, not people who like read a book about it and strategically give, but actually kind of those people who are all kind of addicted to business, who want to do well enough but maybe not be the next Elon Musk, and have a good time doing it, and like to make good friendships. I say what it is now, what it'll be in 5 years, I have no idea. Um, but I guess you call that a community, you know.

Yeah, definitely, of sorts. Yeah, I, as I first heard of you guys in, in 2018, I was living in Barcelona and there was obviously a group who had just been to Croatia, which we'll talk about at the end of the podcast, who were there. And it— Baby Ralford just kept getting mentioned with people raving about it. And I first went and met you in person in Powder Mountain in 2019 and was just blown away by the quality of the group The atmosphere, just the whole vibe, it's incredibly unique, incredibly enjoyable. Instantly, your guard goes down. It's a million miles from a conference in a Vegas hotel. And a lot of the listeners are really interested in building their own community and creating communities that foster flow. Your guys' events are just pure flow the whole time and other non-ordinary states and whatnot. So, I'm curious, what some of the things are that have contributed to you guys being able to just make such an incredible group and environment that people love so much.

I think people are motivated differently. We're definitely like motivated by things that bug us and we don't want them to bug us. There's ways to go about creating, and we're all different, but it is good sometimes. Let's say you want to first know what you want. Like, Hollis and I didn't create a group. We don't want to be leaders. Like, we're not those— you've seen us at our best, we don't talk. So there's no, we don't have a, like, if you want a community where you wanna have something to say, then know that we're not that. And so do you want to create a community of peers, which is what we wanted to do? Or do you want to create a community that has a message that you want to be associated with? And you gotta be really clear. Cause there's very, those are very different things. Like Kotler's building a community, but he really, and I love Steven and he's one of my best friends, but he has something to say and your community builds around that. And learn it. That's one type of community, right? And then you have what we want to do is Hollis and I, we hate, you know, I hate public, I hate getting in front of a group of 5 or more. I don't think I have much to say that way. I mean, I'm not to be replicated. I mean, me giving life advice about would be crazy, right? We're Hollis, like, don't living like us is not the way, you know, don't. So we didn't want a group of people wanting to emulate us or learn from us. We wanted to create a group they'll learn from each other, right? Right. That was our first point that we really clear on. This is not because— what annoyed us about the mastermind— I was part of the 8-Figure Masterminds and all those things back in the day, right? There's always some guru I had to listen to, and I like, I don't want to care. Yeah, I want to listen to you. I'm watching the other people here, so get out of the way, right? Shut up so I can talk to the people here because they're super cool, but you're not. So I don't— we didn't want to be that. I don't want to have to be forced to listen to anybody. So we didn't wanna be that. It's cool. And then all the rules, like, so we figured out what bugged us. And I guess the things that I think get in the way in the entrepreneur world of kind of big egos and, you know, we're all, most entrepreneurs don't like to be told what to do. There's a reason most of us are unemployable. So we were like, wait a second, so why are, why would we tell them what to do? So we wanted to create a, so they want freedom, they want choice. So we were like, okay, if we're gonna do something, at an event, they have a million choices of things to do. Choose your own adventure. Because entrepreneurs are the type of people who don't want to be— you come here at 8 and be here for the mastermind and get in a circle, which is— you see in all these things, it's today, and then there's only one thing, and then there's a guy with a microphone, and there's one big thing, and they're all sitting around one person, and you're stuck with one thing. So as you see, we have multiple things going on at all times. So you see, there's— when we do content, there's always choices of content. Or go out on a boat, or sleep in, or hit the bar, or listen to some music. So the idea was we wanted to give people multiple experiences to choose from without roll call. So that was the first— so it's kind of defining. So in our case, that's what we did, but you could define it how you want. Our audience was bootstrapping entrepreneurs, so not the Silicon Valley people, not the funded people. We have also two audiences. I don't want Zappos. I don't want CEOs who are answering to their investors. So we didn't want the investor monkeys. We wanted the people who own their own reality completely. They especially don't want to be told what to do. So one is knowing your audience. So we know we wanted entrepreneurs who didn't have, weren't beholden to anybody, not their investors, nobody. So we'd like— they want freedom. That means you give them choices. So that was a big thing. And then the subset, if we wanted there, was, you know us pretty well, we don't, we don't think we're big deals, and we don't think anybody else is either. So anybody who thinks they're a big deal, we don't want them. So that's a requirement in their world that they need recognition to be better than anybody else. We like the entrepreneurs who did it because they wanted to be free, help some folks out, were into their shit, but not in it for the status games. They just bug the crap out of us. It's like, I don't care who you are, who cares? Um, it's pure humans. So we wanted those people, right? So then we made— so the first thing was we created choice. We wanted people who liked choice and who That's our avatar, bootstrap entrepreneurs. Bootstrap entrepreneurs don't want to be told what to do, give them a lot of choice. And then we didn't want the status monkeys. So we created rules and that's why we do all-inclusive is so nobody, and we don't have the IP, you can't get a better room, we don't pay speakers, we don't do any of that. So the rule was because we wanted those people, no way to be better. Not one way to show you're better than anybody else, no badges, no whatever, no better room, So, and that allowed it. So we do have people who have $100 million companies, but as you know, we have people who are struggling. So it's that way for 5 days, there's no difference. In 5 days, that's gone. Nobody can go buy the better room, get the penthouse, take people to Morton Steakhouse at the end, and oh, who's going to pay the big dinner tab? Look at the big ballers with them, right? The stuff people do to show that they're better at these shows. So we go to remote locations where they can't go do anything else. So for 5 days, everybody's the same. There's no way to be better. And then as you see, we don't have keynote speakers. We don't do any of that. So we wanted those not status monkey people. So we made the structure that didn't support status monkeys. And then we also had a You know, the first 2 years we built it, we were super strict. It was only half the people were invited back. Like, happy— before we had a membership, so we started doing these events, we had to show we were serious about that. And so the first 2 years, I was like, half you guys are not getting an invite back to this thing. And then how are we evaluating? And we on purpose didn't invite back a lot of people who at the time were big deals. And we did invite back on purpose a lot of people we just liked a lot, um, who were super nice, um, kind, and it was real. And a lot of people call me up like, I'm not invited back, but Joe is. Like, who's Joe? I'm like, Joe's nice, you're not, so you're not coming back. So we had to hold the line. We don't have to do that anymore because we have— that was building the culture of what we wanted, which was not the status stuff. We wanted kind people. And we were like, and then our, yeah. So then another thing we wanted to, that bugged us was like, I remember, and I played the game when I first made, I had an 8-figure company, I joined some 8-figure masterminds and I filled out these things to show my income and I was like, uh, and I was just so annoyed. And then I go and they were the, these weren't the right people. They weren't my people, man. But I learned a lot. That's the baby in it. But, um, yeah, so we just tried to create a structure that didn't reward that. And we said, hey, we're gonna vet people on their personality and who they are, not what they do or about their success. So we wanted to be the first group that vetted people based on who they were, not how successful they are. So in our interview process, there's no form that says what figure business do you have. We don't ask any of those questions. I never ask them on the interview. I don't care. And we don't. And so we also wanted that. I wanted to have real people, um, at least that acted real, you know. So that was— so it's, again, knowing the type of people you want first, knowing who you dig. And I'm not saying this is a group for somebody else to create. This is just what we wanted. I mean, I'm a small town— I mean, I'm a Kansas guy. Hollis is a Georgia guy. We just have those values, I guess. Um, and we still, and we still both hang out with our high school friends. So we like where we grew up. We like our people. Still best friends with all my high school buddies, and Hollis is too. It says something. We want to— those people, we wanted people we want to hang with. More so than how successful they were. So like, but then I don't, when I talk about Baby Bathwater, I don't promise the best and the brightest, man. Some are, some aren't. It attracts some of the best and brightest. I'll never say we have the best, but I will say we have the kindest, most interesting, fun people because that's what we're curating on. So I'd rather have a nice, kind, fun, have your back person who's number 3 in the industry than a Somebody I can't stand is number 1 any day of the week.

Yeah, it's a great, it's a great breakdown. Love it. It's fun actually for me to hear the thinking behind how you guys architected it because I've experienced the effect of those choices, but I actually didn't realize each of those pieces, honestly, because they're sort of invisible when you're there. But yeah, the choice of the events is amazing. I think there's a lot to be said for the fact that the avatars are clustered around that kind of bootstrapped entrepreneur who answers to themselves, and then the humility piece, and then the fact that, yeah, there's no way to be better than someone else. I hadn't thought of that either, but it's totally true. You're completely immersed when you're at one of the events. Yeah, you can't pick up the big bar tab, you can't drive up in a fancy car even, you know, you can't do any of that, which is actually— it's a great point. So it's kind of invisible, um, the various levels people are at and things like that. And you know what I just want to mention for the audience here, which is really interesting, is Keith Sawyer, who's a University of North Carolina psychologist, wrote a book called Group Genius on group flow. And you guys, you know, have nailed a lot of the group flow triggers, I think, which is, you know, one is, um, one is equal participation. So skill levels are roughly equal across everyone. And because some people aren't, you know, super high-level keynote speakers while others are, you know, in different hotel suites, you get this kind of equalization, uh, blending egos. Each person can submerge their ego needs into the groups. You guys have kind of nailed that with the humility side of things, which is a big one. And then another one is actually from improv jazz, which is yes and conversations are additive, not combative. And I think that you guys covered that with the nice, you know, just filtering for like nice solid people. Close listening is another one, complete concentration to another, to another person. And that's another one you guys have nailed with the kind of with these values. So yeah, what's interesting is like the whole stack of group flow triggers kind of tie in really tightly with just the values that I think—

can I meet this guy? It's called Group Genius.

It's the name of the book. Yeah, yeah, you guys can read the book. Yeah, you'll love it. Yeah, I should have mentioned it. It's, it's spot on. But I think that we're figuring out—

like, that's crazy because we try to read— we try to like study this, right?

That's incredible.

Yeah, definitely read that.

Yeah, so yeah, just as you were going through there, I was just drawing all the parallels. And what I wanted to ask you because you mentioned the word culture at the end there. You know, that's really what all this ends up surmounting to, is just a very distinct culture, um, which is something that I think a lot of people struggle to build. What do you think it is that allowed you guys to build a culture that is so strong and identifiable?

And I wish I knew. I mean, that's the whole thing, is we iterate. I mean, it's just a little bit of luck. I mean, the people create the culture, right? Um, I think it's good Hoss and I, it's lucky in the partner thing, we see eye to eye on the main thing. I mean, and Hoss, I couldn't be more different in so many ways, but on this stuff we are. And then, as you know, Cynthia really runs our company. She sees it the way we see it. And this, we got lucky with our initial group and it was kicking out half the people, being real, and then got lucky with some people. And as you know, in every group, there's some people who kind of stick out and drive your culture. And we, I think we're smart enough to see the people who we would kind of like elevate a little bit, but not status-wise, but like, like Jenny Thompson, I'll mention, like when we were, I guess our first two events, pretty bro-y. I mean, because now we're almost, we're almost 50/50, which is very proud of that on the film, no, because we're not a bro group. But at the beginning it was probably 80/20, right? And maybe more. And then Jenny was a friend of mine from before. She's who I wanted, and I kept inviting her, and she kept saying, I'll never go to anything that you and Hollis do. Like, you crazy? Because, you know, this is like dumb drunks. And yeah, I made money with her, but she's like, no way. And I was like, all right, I'll just get you your ticket, you're going. And she went, and she loved it. She's like, this is great. But she goes, what's wrong with the chicks here? And I'm like, well, maybe you can change that. And I kind of elevated her. I was like, That's who we want. Come. So we got to go recruit a ringer. And then, so she's a big reason why that's strong, cuz Jenny's sharp, kind, doesn't take any shit, no tolerance for girl fights. Right. Just the kind of culture that you'll see there on the female side. It's very like loyal, like strong, but not, but just can get along with any, you know, stronger than a guy kind of thing.

Mm-hmm.

So that's girls, you know, do you see all the girls in there? They're tough. Right? They're fantastic. And so it's kind of finding the people sometimes you build around a little bit, um, right? So you get rid of the people that, especially the beginning, that you really don't want around. The people you do want around, you kind of get them, you know, hey, like, I like Kurt Malley, and hey, you can, um, you know, hang out by the music, you know, just whatever little things, right, that you kind of like show the kind of person you want around. That makes sense.

Well, it also sounds like what you guys are doing there is, is really making it participatory, where the community is kind of like leading different elements of the group as well, which I imagine plays a big role.

Yeah, you see different cultures in the group. I mean, so it's— and they're great. And then every time we get in, and then it's inevitable, every year there's somebody new comes in who's like— we're like, whoa, that person's way cooler, that's way cooler than me. And I'm like, neat. And then you do kind of let them go 'Cause you're like, whoa, what a new wrinkle. This is cool. And recognizing the new wrinkles that develop, like Elise. I mean, like, it's like, whoa. And then, and now we have these 3 new girls in who like are changing things in a great way. You know? So I'm like, go, you know? And then I do talk 'em up, you know? I'm like, they're funny. And they, you know, so it's, and you didn't even know those people existed or, you know, so then that's a cool, I mean, and the benefit I think is like, we're getting out of it is we're meeting people way better than we are. I'm not talking about better economically. I mean, that too. I mean, Hollis and I are the bottom 20th percent. If success is money, Hollis and I now are the bottom 20th percentile of our group, right? So 80% of the people in Baby Balthazar are more successful economically than we were at the beginning. We were at the top 20 and now we're low. That's kind of cool. That's not even what I'm talking about. Like, we're meeting cool people. Like, just like, I want to wear their hat. Like, just think differently than I've ever thought about it. And they're— or they're nicer. Like, I thought I was— I used to think I was pretty nice, and like, not like that person. And— or more generous than I am, or more interesting. Like, why am I not doing that? Or like, you know, I'm a parent. Like, they're doing way cooler things with their families than I am. I'm like, that's cool. And I just copy them. It's great. So it's like, you get to see these pettiness of neat people. And then I'm like, well, I'm going to try that one out. So you kind of get to see firsthand different ways of being or thinking that I never in a million years would have seen at this level, if that makes sense.

Totally. And I want to touch on that actually in a second, just the benefits of being the community leader and builder and hosting. But before we do that, one of the other things you mentioned around culture was that you guys literally didn't invite half the people back and that you basically actually stood for the culture in spite of it costing you probably a ton financially. And I think a lot of people say they want a certain culture, but when it comes down to the hard decision and the sacrifice, they just don't do it. So how did you guys just, you know, use enough kind of will and persistence to sacrifice financially to build the right culture to then benefit more long-term?

Yeah, I mean, at the beginning it wasn't— financially, it took a long time for this to be anything. So that was— we both had a lot of side hustles. Of the time. So it wasn't like, you know, and we both got lucky. I mean, I had sold my part of my thing, Halls had sold his, so we were both sitting pretty well. And then so that wasn't our priority at the beginning anyway. So we did have the luxury of it not having to work at the beginning, um, that way, right? Um, so we were definitely in debt for a long time. It wasn't like profitable, but barely. Anyway, that's a whole nother thing. Don't do this for the money. It's not the best— the business model is terrible. It's not a good business model that way. Not at all. But, um, we're not losing money anymore. That's cool. But yes, don't do it for that. If you're doing it for that reason, you're going to fail right away.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm going to create a community so I can make money. That you're— it won't work, right? Oh, you can make one that creates money, but it's not going to be fun. You want to be a part of. So yeah, it's not a good business model at all. So that's, again, I try to get that out of the way. It's great for other things. It's great for the other things in your life. Um, and it's great to do it. It feels great. But the other things I've gotten out of this, even economically, are great. The actual thing, right? Economically, right, right.

The thing itself. So, so what was it that allowed you guys to, to make those money sacrifices though? Was it just enough desire to want to make the thing really epic and not like all the other things, or We're both this intolerant.

I mean, that's— I mean, like, I really can't be around people at all. I really— I have, like, they call me Twitchy McAsperger's. So when I don't like somebody, I start twitching. So I can't even hide displeasure. And Hollis wants to be around who Hollis wants to be around. We're both pretty selfish. I'm that way, right?

Right.

Company. So yeah, it's more that.

Um, that's funny.

There's no way we were gonna let you in, like, if You know what I'm saying? Like, it's just because our disdain was high.

Well, so, well, here's another question.

You have to really believe. I mean, if I'm going to answer in a more general way, you gotta stick with it and kind of promise yourself that you want to be a part of your thing, and then use your filter and stick to it, right? So it's whatever it is that you— and it's also like, what I don't like doesn't have to be what you don't like. It just happens that Hollis and I just happen to agree on the humans. But it's, um, and we're both super social, and so humans matter a lot to us. So, but it's different for everybody. We have a certain type of person we like, you know, it is what it is.

And how did you guys navigate having to say difficult nos to people, you know, who, some of whom were probably important connections and relationships? How do you do that without feeling like—

because we would just not invite them, and most people just don't say anything. So it's not that hard. And then the people who do call, I just have, you know, just tell them like, it's not for you. I mean, more like, this isn't for you, you should go somewhere else. And I always like recommend like, you're not where we're going. And then I'd say, you know, you— and I'd always give them like where they do belong. There's other groups out there. And so I'm not going to put people down, I'm not going to like say who the groups I send them to are, but I can make it seem like they belong there in a more positive way. I'm not trying to be mean, but I'm like, you, you're going to get more value over here. Like, look, there's a guy over there or over there that's doing something that you're gonna get what you want. You're not going to get what you want here. So I try to turn it into, you're not going to get anything out of this.

Yeah, yeah, got it, got it. No, that makes total sense. And then it probably— they probably appreciate it because it's kind of a hard thing.

There are other groups.

It is.

Yeah, there are better groups for What they're looking for.

Yeah.

You want to be like on, be a bestselling author, for example.

Yeah.

You know, we, we're not the group, but you know, it's just, you know, that's your only goal and you don't have any other way. There's better groups for that. Right.

Yeah. That makes, that makes total sense.

Hey, it's Joshua with the production team. Thanks for listening to Flow Research Collective Radio. Before we dive back into our conversation, There's something to consider. It may be that today we are under-challenged. We're drowning in comfort. Now, in his book, Antifragile, statistician Nassim Taleb pointed out something that's of key importance. Quote, undercompensation from the absence of challenge degrades the best of the best. The best horses lose when they compete with slower ones and win against better rivals. Now, put another way, who we could be, or our highest potential, is squandered by safety. Coddled by comfort. If you want to train with us at the Flow Research Collective, it will require boldness. But what's life without a little adventure, right? To learn more about how you can get more flow in your life and achieve your professional and personal goals in less time and with more ease, go to getmoreflow.com. If you're a good fit, we'd love to train with you. All the best.

One thing you mentioned just before we started recording, which I thought you put really nicely, is just that, you know, being the person who's leading the community or facilitating or hosting or whatever you want to call it is really tremendously valuable. There's a friend of mine said recently, hosting is 10 times as much work, but 1,000 times as valuable. And yeah, I'm curious if you could speak to that a little bit for people who are listening and want to bring community together or build communities.

Yeah. I mean, the first thing is you get to be around— if you build it in a way that you're attracting the people that you want to be around, by far the most important thing. You just meet wildly— it's a variety of people that get in your life. If you like people, it's crazy town. And then because you are the person running it, like it or not, I mean, there is a halo effect, and you just get to meet them in a way— I mean, other members, they're all— you see, they're all friends, but we do get to meet them in a different way.

Yeah.

And so it just is, you know, and then they contact us for certain things, right? And so I get more insight because people want to use the group and they'll call like, hey, how can I use a group for this or whatever? And so we get to have these conversations and I get to meet them at that level of like their dreams and ambitions and get to know them better. And it's just cool. So I get to see them be a little more vulnerable with us sometimes than they might be in the group, um, that kind of thing. And so just, just get to meet them at a different level. And they were somehow, if you're running a group, they reveal more to you for some weird reason. Um, so you just get to know slightly deeper level of what they really want out of life, and they're like, well, that's cool. And then it's fun. And then you go get to— and then the next thing is like watching people, just to know that you— like, my favorite, I'm like a yes, so like watching people meet and then them becoming best friends or helping each other out is the coolest feeling in the world. Like when you— like you, like you're rooming with a guy, you know, like So they want to go to your pad over there in California. All you guys are roommates and you met through baby bathwater and your lives are great and, you know, you happen to meet there. That's a good feeling.

Yeah, right.

Like, because I'm not, you know, we're in different generations. Like, you and I, like, we're buds, but we're not like tight tight. I mean, we're in different worlds. But then to watch you guys go, you have a thing, and that's fucking— yeah, gratifying. So that's the feel-good part of it. And then the benefit benefit is there is a halo effect. And so like, I probably get invited to a lot more things than I would ever, you know, because Paulus and I run Baby Bathwater, I get invited above my level a lot of things.

Yeah, yeah.

So I do get it, you know. So the crass part is I do get invited to parties I wouldn't have gotten into before. Um, right. So it's definitely given me access to things that, you know, I wasn't considered at whatever. But I do get to, you know, it does get me into things, you know. So certain, you know, because people think that group leaders mean more than they do, because it's kind of not, but they think that. So you're like, cool, I'll get— I'll go to— I'll go to the box seat of the football game, you know, it's cool. So it's— so you get access to stuff, you know, besides the gratifying part. And then on the, you know, so the friendship side's obvious. And then, yeah, like traveling. And I— but actually, any member can do this too, but like, I could go anywhere and have a think something to do. It's a worldwide group. But I guess the other thing is, and on the business side, I get deal flow. I mean, that was originally when Hollis and I started it, like we were gonna look through a party, meet the people we wanna do business with. So the whole idea besides like showing the people that we could do it in a way that wasn't yucky, we wanted to find the people we wanted to end up doing business with. That was our side goal. And that's worked out pretty well. So like, deals that come my way. I would probably never get little partnerships and things like that. And also the investing deal flow is amazing. So there's quite a few things that have come through Baby Bathwater or people meet at Baby Bathwater, they start a company or, hey, we're going to get this hotel or do this investment prop, whatever. We get access. And then because we know the members really well, I have a high prediction value on who's going to do what together well. I think we're pretty good at— because we know everybody so well, when they say they're doing X, it's pretty easy to know what to invest my money in. So, right.

That's nice. So the deal flow and also the ability to discern more effectively on what deals are going to win.

Yeah, we've thrown in a lot of things and they're doing pretty well on numbers. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's not like a fish— like, we don't have a fund because we don't want to be the fund guys, but we do do a lot. And that's the thing, we haven't done an official group. We Will that— it's almost like free betting. And then people hear Halsey are doing it and they'll all throw in. Like we just all invested in Mac's soccer team and now we own a soccer team. That's super cool. But you know, Mac's gonna do it. You know that shit's working. Yeah. So it's like, right. And so then, so anyway, so you know that'll work, but most people don't know Mac. So, you know, he won't fail.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool. It's actually, it's a really great point. Yeah. That you have that extra insight. It's still basically fast free diligence and the deal flow kind of thing.

Super interesting. And we have, because it's a diverse group, we have people to call in. Like, we're looking at a piece of land, for example, Halls and I have to do something with, and there's 4 people in our group I can call that will be way better at telling us whether it's a good investment than we are. That's kind of free. We were about to buy these bars in Denver that looked like great. And then there's a guy in our group who owns a bunch of bars in Nashville, super successful. He looked it over, he's like, run. We're like, what? It looks so great. He's like, no, you're not looking at it. And we're like, thank you. It was like, wow, wow, saved our ass, right? We use a group for a lot of that, I guess. Yeah, pre-vetting of deals.

No, that's interesting. That's super interesting. One thing I want to actually ask you is, you know, you've obviously had at this point, I don't know how many hundred bootstrapped entrepreneurs, a lot of whom are the types of people listening. I don't want to ask you a cheesy, you know, what have you seen that make them successful question, but instead I actually just want to ask you What have you seen amidst the, the nicest, happiest, most fulfilled in the group? What, what seems to be common to the people who are just happiest with their entrepreneurial journey?

The ones who have products or services that they love to do. So the people who got into a business because it was a good business are generally miserable. I found the people had a passion, like Chaz with his, you know, Paleo Valley. Like, we met Chaz when he's just barely getting his beef sticks out of his garage. Now it's $120 million company. But you know what, Chow's gonna make beef sticks anyway. He's in the regenerative farming, right? The whole thing's real. He has the bigger thing and he gives a shit about what he's doing. He loves— I think he has more regenerative farming animals in the world. I mean, like, he has that, he owns the farm. I mean, he has more deals than every farm. But he loves talking to the farmers. Like, You know, he's building a company, but he loves it. Um, Tyler Malinky, you know, Lowbrow Customs, you know, the leading custom motorcycle parts in the world. He'd do it anyway. So the people who would do the thingy, or Lisa with her hotels and bars in Montana or whatever, um, it's the people who would do what they're doing probably for $60K a year, right? Um, anyway, and they have a hard time doing anything else, I found, are the most fulfilled. Like they really dig the shit they do. And that, and that people like, you know, the coaching world well, like some of them are doing it because they saw an opportunity in coaching. Some of them just love helping people, super happy, right? Like you have the— and so the people helper types, like, you know, we call coaches, psychologists, whatever, um, the ones that love people, love it, they're happy, man. And they would probably be coaching anyway, right? Like, so that's the first thing. It's by far not even close. It's the people who aren't settling and doing what they want to do, or either something they desire, like a hobby, or they love to help— they're people helper types and they get to help people. The ones I found are just pure business people, and there are happy people do it because some people then love business and that's cool. Yeah, and they love— some people love the game and they're happy, they love the game, right? So I'm not saying that's bad, but the people are like, I'm just doing it for the money. Oh, they're generally not. They generally sabotage themselves. Um, but yeah, because it's also like, there's some people like a calm that, you know, there's people who just love business. It's crazy to me, but, um, they do, and they're happy as shit, and they love helping people out with it. You know, you can tell they love it when they just can't stop giving business advice, right? You know the type. Yeah, they're happy, man. So that's their passion. That's awesome. And we have a couple of those, and they're great. All they can do is help people with business, and they don't even— they're not even consultants. Made a lot of money and they're just like there and they love just getting on the phone. I'll help that person out. Yeah, it's the people who love it anyway, who would talk about it anyway.

Yeah, that makes total sense. Are the happiest, the most fulfilled. Yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah, we— Stephen talks a lot about the intrinsic motivational stack, which is passion, purpose, mastery, curiosity, autonomy. And it sounds like when those pieces, especially passion or purpose, are lined up, you—

we're pretty loaded with those. Not— I mean, not 100%, but that's a I'd say that's true for a lot of the people in the group.

Yeah, yeah, I've definitely found that to be true.

Or they're figuring it out, or they're— this is also fine— doing the thing to make the money so they can have their thing to do passion. So some people are like doing the thing maybe they don't like so much right now— sometimes you just got to do it, right? Um, so that they can fund the thing that will. And you can see they have a future in their head, right? Because some people aren't doing the thing that gives them bliss right away. But they will.

Yeah. Does that— does that person tend to be less kind of happy and fulfilled in the moment, do you find?

Or is it not necessarily the ones that believe they're going to get there? Aren't—

I mean, yeah, you know, right, right. That's interesting. So the conviction—

yeah, those two, like I said, we have all levels. So like there's people there who I know aren't doing the thing they're gonna die, you know, grow old doing, right? But they'll grow old doing what they're gonna do. Right. They will grow old doing the thing they're gonna do.

Just on the note of growing old, one of the things you mentioned when you were, when you were over at our house was the potential future baby bathwater, uh, nursing home. I don't know if you're allowed to mention that or— because it's super interesting.

It's a, it's a, it could be a thing because we're aging, you know, like that's— there's the state of that is terrible. As you know, my parents in their 80s, it's awful. It's funny, we actually have a new member, Annalee Krueger, and she's an aging expert. She's amazing. She— a couple members have hired her to help with their parents, and she basically helps with this. But she's like, you listen to her, like, it's just terrible out there. And so we're like, what if— and then, and then Jimmy Buffett's family, Jimmy Buffett's old folks home are sold out, and they can't even build them fast enough. Um, so we're like, we're an affinity group, like, why can't we change that? I mean, have a place that we could all grow old, you know, like a place to grow old but in style and have fun. And then But I've always thought it's weird about the old folks homes, they're in one location. Like, wouldn't it be cool if you had an old folks home but you could travel within them to different places?

You weren't stuck. Yeah.

So have all nurses. And anyway, that's the thing we're looking at. And then it's not a bad investment either. So it's, that's the thing. And then Grow Old is our code word. So when, when Hollis and I are thinking, because you know how it goes in our thing, we invite people, apply to our events and go through a rigmarole even to get to one. And then If you're invited to the community, you kind of get voted in. And then also I look at— we ask ourselves, do we want to grow with these people? And if we don't, we don't invite them, right? Like, it's gut, the gut thing. Like, we're like, do I want to grow with this guy and that girl? Like, I want to hang out with them 20 years. If it's a no, it's probably shouldn't have, man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a good, very good filter. Very good filter.

Yeah, um, filter.

Final question, Lovic, before we— I just want to touch on Croatia in a moment, but before we do that, you know, for someone who wants to start being a community leader or building a community, creating group flow, what do you think the first steps are? You know, you mentioned earlier the avatar, the values, but yeah, curious what that's from.

First, deciding whether it's top-down or not. Like, and it's fine either one, both are great. I mean, look at what you guys are doing, it's fantastic. And you know, you're teaching flow and it's around that. So is it going to be around something where you're teaching Or is it a peer-to-peer community like ours? Because Halsey and I do not tell you the way or any of that. So that's huge because it's so different, right? And then I can't speak so much to the community like you would. You should— you and Steven, you built this amazing— should talk more about that. I'm not an expert. So then if your decision— because what we do would not work if you want to be what you and Steven are doing, just won't work. Yeah. So if you want to build a peer-to-peer community where you're not the authority or the leader that way. Because we're basically set and setting, like we provide set and setting and get the right people, but we're not who should be listened to. But if you want to do that, it's, yeah, then decide the most important thing is who do you want there, right? Who do you want to grow, you know, who do you want to be around, right? What do you want out of it? And then start going like, who are these people? What do they want? And build it around that. So we knew also like we want music lovers too, because if people don't like live music, probably not going to get along with them. I mean, if you don't like John Prine or anyway, like, down to that level, like, what kind of music? Yeah, um, right. Yeah, you're not gonna be happy unless you want to be around the people. If you're doing peer-to-peer, decide what you want and then build it around the audience you want. And a lot of that's going to be easy because you're going to like the same things. And then be diff— and then be different. So then look at what else is around there for those type of people. And then just do it way better. And to do it better, you do it differently. And you're gonna have to go in the hole a little bit because it's, it's like the signaling. Like, if you read like the behavioral economics, like, signaling is important. So you, you do have to go in the hole a little bit to show that you're serious. So if you're like, well, let's just go to dinner, right? Just get a guy, you know, give me a break. Like, so unoriginal. So everybody else does. So at least run an Airbnb and have a chef. I mean, to start off, and you do start off small. Like, our first thing we did up at Gold— it was in Mountain Town, maybe 20 minutes out of here. And our first, like, two kind of trial things is like, we found— it's an old shitkicker bar up there that has bluegrass. And we just would get a bus, and it was like free. And we're like, hey, like, you want to come up? And we just do some hoedowns. But it was like free hoedown, whatever. And we'd have great food, great music. And we lost a lot of money, but people knew, like, these guys are Yeah, yeah. You got to show that you're going out. Like, you got to take— show that you're willing to lose money. Like, if you're trying to make money at the beginning, they'll see that. So show that you're investing time, show that you're taking all the risks, show that you care so much that you lose money to do it. And we did for years. So, so it's like, but people see that. And so you got to signal that you care. And so do something a little better than You know, you see it all the time, like in the meetup groups, like they're trying to do it, but then it's always the same thing. So do it better, different, show that you care. And showing you care is not that hard, especially like a dinner. Like you can find a good chef, man. You can rent a cool house, you can cool, you know, like, and do it better, you know, and just think about it. And yeah. So, so anything like that based on the audience, what would they think is better? And you've got to stand out and be a little different. Um, so, and then iterate, because then, you know, like, we are very different from what we started as. And so I guess, and then, and then, but you gotta have a community, I guess you call that. You listen. We've changed a lot on member feedback, and we've taken a lot of advice. There's things we don't do anymore because people are like, that's stupid, or like, or that's hypocritical. Like, you're right, so we stopped it. Or they have a suggestion for something better, and we're like, that's cool. Almost all the cool stuff we've done new has been That's a suggestion of somebody else.

I mean, just on that note, about 4 months ago I got a, uh, a potato from you guys in the mail with a little sticker on it. Was that a member suggestion or who thought of that one? It was genius.

Actually, no, that was Ferg. That was— but that was from one of our employees.

Okay, yeah, so good. It was unwrapped as well, just to be clear. The audience knows that it was an unwrapped potato, a naked potato. So good.

With a link to a video. So people, people, we have a— and also, yeah, I didn't mention the whole thing, you have to have a code of conduct then. So then these kind of, you know, you have to have rules that people follow that are— you know, we have a lot of implicit rules because there's implicit rules and explicit rules, but you do have to have explicit rules so people know when they're in trouble. Like, because you see people do get in trouble in our group, and we're— you, and you have to enforce your rules. So like, again, like we said, we're not inviting half of that, you know, we're only inviting back nice people. We only Don't say you're gonna do something and don't do it. One. And then the rules have to be clear. And like the potato was because we were, people were getting kind of lax with some of our code of conduct, more about business-to-business relationships. And it was, we were, before it became a problem, we were like, well, let's write it out better and send a potato with a video with a link to it. And then have a funny potato video about, hey, read the code of conduct. So we tried to have a sense of humor about, hey fellas, you're, here are the rules. Like, Stephanie, right?

Yeah, it was so good. It was great. And then, uh, the final thing, love, which I want to mention is that the main event that you guys do, or one of the main ones, which is Croatia— and, uh, hopefully I'll be going this year. I know, uh, Stephen has been, and lots of amazing people who the audience would know of, household names, have been there. And back 6 years ago when I first found out about you guys, it was because everyone had just been at Croatia and was mind-blowing. They were still in Europe So could you tell just the audience a little bit about, about that event and, uh, how they can apply? I know you guys are really selective in the application process.

Not everyone gets in, but it's kind of what we call them flagships, like the, the, um, Baja and Croatia, like, and those are where new people can come try. It's basically going to be like over half members and then just try it out. But it's a 5-day event. It's a— we rent out a whole island and we've done the same. We have a really good— they're great there. We rent it out from these people that we know really well, and they, they're really cool. They allow us to turn it into our own island. This is normally like a resort, like now ours. And, um, it's an island off of Split. It's beautiful on the sea. And then basically, like you said, you land in Split, and then it's a 5— we take— we pick you up, we get you there, and then there's nothing you can pay for. You— we pick you up, drop you back off, and it's a 5-day immersive experience. That's what I would call it on the island. And we have, like I said, content on the days 11, 1, and 3. There'll be 4 choices each time to see what you want to learn. Or you can swim, or we've got boats going out every hour, um, or you can sleep in. The bars are open 24/7, so it's all-inclusive. So there's never a time where you couldn't get something to eat, never a time where you can't get a beer, um, and then never time you can't really learn anything And people, as you see, to kind of pack up and hang. The group rules are no showing off, no talking politics, no spirituality. Come like with questions, not answers. Kind of the attitude is nobody's allowed to have it all figured out. It's a be cool, help out what you can, meet people. And then we have, you know, good food. And then at night it turns into a music show. And we have, um, Halls— I can't take any credit— Halls is like gonna be a music producer. So he brings in like people who play at Red Rock, like real bands, and they form a supergroup. And it's our kind of favorite music, like funk and blues. And so we have like guitar players, trumpet players, different singers, and they all kind of pick, and keyboardists, they mix and match and form different bands within the time. And then for the people who want to do more of the— we are allowing it now. We— it's a big island, so we have one place you can go do that kind of music, and it goes really late. And there's another area that has like, we'll have a DJ for that kind of trancey stuff. Um, so that's, there's two different ways to enjoy music there. And yeah, so it's just kind of like a little village that happens and you can do what you want when you want. And there's different crowds. And also we get a reputation. We have people who don't drink or do, and they're basically, so it's really funny. You'll have a group that's going to bed at 11, waking up at 6 for yoga, doing their thing. And then we'll have a group going to bed at 6:00 AM, sleep until noon. And then we have such a big island, so it's like a festival. So the island can fit like thousands of people and we only have like 250. So it feels empty in a lot of ways. So there's lots of space. And then we have different camps, kind of, and it's luxury camps. So it's like cabins with AC and all that. So it's not roughing it, but people fill out surveys before they come and we basically build it around the people. So If you're loud, you're going to camp loud and you're going to stay up late. We have our early morning people so that way people who want it quiet get it quiet. And then some people who say they want to be quiet, like, no, I'm— this is my weekend. And then we'll move them over there. And then we have the people go to bed at 2 AM and wake up. So we have different people in different areas because it's big. So we're able to kind of divide so that way people don't bug each other. So it becomes like this little community and then everybody's around in the day and then people just kind of packing up, doing their thing. And then the only time everybody's together, together at once where you hear Hollis and I talk at all is at dinner. And that's when we're just like, thanks for being here. What you're going out at 10, not 11, like little logistics things. And that's about all you hear from us, as you see. And then we did some dumb awards last night, but that's about all you— that's the only time where everybody's together. So it's a really like— it's kind of like a music festival meets entrepreneur show, I'd say the best way to put it. With some rules of like, yeah, say if you want to come try to get investment or have somebody promote your book or any of that, that's not allowed. No selling. So you can't sell your wares there. So you're safe from that. That means we— people smell the hidden agenda really fast. So if you have one, you'll never come back. So just know, like, so it's not just that. And I tell people all the time, like, and that's a big reason why people aren't invited back, because they can't stop doing it. We're like, come on. And then it's also We tell the guys, not a place to get laid. Like, we leave the girls alone. We're getting loose, we're having a good time, we're dancing, I'm drinking a lot and stuff, so leave them alone. Um, you know, big brother, big brother energy, not pickup energy, because that'll also get dealt with not very nicely from us.

Yeah, no, that makes sense.

It's a safe place from— yes, that way you can get loose and not make a mistake because you're not good. Yeah, yeah, I love it. That way you get down and not have consequences, because we're not gonna let that— yeah, so it's not Burning Man at all. It's not that place. And there's a lot of people don't do— and there's no judgment. If you're like crazy, then don't judge people aren't. And if you're not, you know, so the White is acceptance of people's different things.

Yep, that makes total sense. And I think I just want to emphasize to the audience, you know, I personally, as you mentioned, I'm living with people I met through Bayou Bartholdi. Some of my closest friends I met through Bayou Bartholdi. Some of the most influential people on me from a business standpoint I've met through Baby Bathwater. And just the community and the group is so incredible. So I really want to encourage our listeners to, to apply and to see if they're fit and potentially could go to an event like Croatia. How can people do that? How can they apply?

I don't know how you are. I'll just go to babybathwater.com and I'll give you a link or something. And, um, yeah, events and you apply. And then, yeah, just know, like, when you apply, you'll be filtered. I mean, we have people who look at it. But at the end, it'll either be Hollis or— like, after you've committed kind of through the thing, you'll have to talk to either Hollis or me. I mean, we don't outsource the final filter. So then, like, only get on the phone with us if you're like, yeah, I really want to go, because it just wastes our time. Because we're basically now on the phone, each of us have like 4 or 5 calls a day, and that's kind of what we do. It's the most important thing what we do. We can't outsource it. Yeah, it's one of us at the very end who's going to have an hour conversation with you to make sure it's a mutual fit. It's super important because it's— you can smell it when it's not. And we'll tell you like, hey, it's probably isn't for you. Yeah, yeah. So it's one of us at the end of the day, it's going to do the final filter, you know, the thing. So yeah, it's kind of— it's that and it's fun. And it is our only thing this year that I need that a non-member can go to. And so it's a chance to kind of see whether— yeah, whether we're your kind of monkeys kind of thing.

I mean, super. Okay, yeah, I didn't realize you guys had the domain babybathwater.com. That's nice. So babybathwater.com it is. And, uh, thanks again so much, Lovich. This is—

yeah, this is fun.

Great. Yeah, really fun.

Thanks for having me.

Another one with Hollis as well at some point. Yeah, again, uh, yeah, thank you guys. Listen, I just want to say thank you guys for everything. And I mean, I can't even— you know, I can't even emphasize the amount of just value and, and community and relationships I've gotten out of the group. It's been more than any other group I've ever been a part of. So yeah, super grateful for you guys. Yeah, big time.

The book is Group Genius that I gotta get.

Group Genius, exactly. It's the one.

We'll get you on that. Okay, I'm in. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks so much. Take care. Bye-bye.

Thank you.

Hey, it's Joshua with the production team. And one of the biggest challenges of high performers is a lack of time or inefficient time management. Now, without leverage on your time, it doesn't matter the size of opportunities that come your way. It doesn't matter how excited you are about pursuing your goals. Time scarcity or poor time management blocks you from performing at your best. But here's the good news. You don't necessarily need more time. What matters is more flow. Research shows that a flow state makes you up to 500% more productive within the tiny bit of time that you have. Flow is the experience of being in the zone. It's a state of total immersion and focus where you feel limitless and you perform at the highest level. Flow Research Collective is founded by Pulitzer Prize nominee Steven Kotler, and we've trained thousands of high achievers to free up more time through flow. Here's the sad truth that we've seen: most skilled professionals find flow by accident. It's intermittent and inconsistent instead of inevitable. But what happens when you make flow a readily accessible and automatic part of your day, as natural to you as breathing, eating, or tying your shoes, for example? Well, for starters, time constraints start to matter a whole lot less. Now, multiplying your productivity by 5x sounds hyperbolic, so let's just back up a minute. Even if you only double what you can currently get done in a given day, wouldn't that be worth learning how to access flow reliably and consistently? This is exactly what we train together at the Flow Research Collective. Just go to getmoreflow.com. We'll train you in the same protocol we teach to Navy SEALs and to executives in the boardrooms of Google and Facebook. What you'll learn is backed by research out of Harvard, DARPA, Deloitte, and others. Tapping this high level of productivity through flow and freeing up your time exponentially is a measurable outcome you can expect. It's time to get your time back. Just go to getmoreflow.com right now.

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