From Beginner to Finisher: Cultivating Commitment with Nate Checketts

Welcome to Flow Radio. I'm Ryan Wicks, Chief of Staff here at the Flow Research Collective. And joining me and our head coach, Dr. Tory Higgins, today is Nate Sheckets, the dynamic co-founder and CEO of Roan. Nate's journey in the business world is impressive, not just for his role in establishing Roan, a leading performance lifestyle brand, but also for his experience with giants in technology and entertainment like Cisco and the NFL. His entrepreneurial spirit started shining early on, founding and launching 4 companies before turning 30. Nate has received well-deserved recognition highlighted by a spot on the Sports Business Journal's 2020 list of 40 Leaders Under 40. He also contributes significantly to the community, is chairman of the board for Beyond Type 1, a nonprofit supporting those with type 1 diabetes. Today, we'll unpack how Nate's entrepreneurial drive and his dedication to mental health and wellness influence his work and personal life. We'll explore the intersections of business, personal and community health, and family life, and how maintaining harmony in these areas can propel us beyond our wildest dreams. Nate, it's a privilege to welcome you to the show.

Thanks so much, guys. It's so great to be here with you.

Nate, so good to see you. Thanks for joining us.

Yeah, no, this is a total privilege for me. I appreciate you guys having me here.

Yeah. So Nate, this entire month we're talking about the intersections of flow and resilience. And resilience means something different to different people. And I'm curious, what does resilience mean to you? It's a two-part question here. And how critical has it been on your journey?

I mean, I think growing up, I always thought of resilience as kind of that grit, you know, to just stick with something. I remember my grandparents, they were very traditional in every sense of the way, but my grandfather had this pillow in his office and on it, it was like crocheted and it said, stick to a task until it sticks to you. Beginners are many, but finishers are few. And that was just kind of the way that he lived his life. Um, and so I think I've always been deeply inspired by that idea of drive and sticking with it. But I think as I've, as I've grown and hopefully matured a little bit and spent some time with, with FRC, what I've realized is resilience isn't just this ethereal, hard to grasp ability to stick with something. It's a muscle and it can be trained and it can be developed. And it's something that if you work on, can improve. And for me, that's absolutely been the case. And now I look for opportunities to develop resilience because let's face it, in the world we live in today, resilience is more of a choice than it ever has been in human history.

That's so true. And I think you're right. Resilience can look like lots of different things. I think there's lots of different tools that go into truly being resilient. Can you talk a little bit about— I mean, you, you run a large organization, you have a family, you're very involved in your community, you take your health seriously, right? Like, how does resilience look? How does resilience show up in kind of these different parts of your life?

I think there's just a level of commitment that, that really matters for me that there's a great quote by Vince Lombardi and he says, I've never known a person worth their salt who doesn't love the grind. And I think what I was really blessed with is I grew up in a part of the country where people really work very, very hard. They work hard and they kind of play hard and they just kind of live a very full life. I joke that if you go out in our community, somebody is running like one of the largest hedge funds, and they're also training for a triathlon on the side. And, you know, then they're also like volunteering for the local school board. You know, people just are kind of all in. And that inspired me. My dad was that way, is that way. And my mom is too. And so I think I just have been inspired by people who have climbed tall mountains and then say, this is what we do. We climb tall mountains. We, you know, we get up, not, not in the sense that, you know, you might, your perspective might change, your focus might change, but I just love that idea of showing up and, uh, and being committed to, uh, to what you believe in.

So, I mean, I'm hearing there that being raised in a community surrounded by high performers maybe modeled some of the behavior that you learned.

That's for sure true.

No slouches in that area for sure. But how, you know, it strikes me too that you're somebody who is very involved in community building, right? So not just your team at Rhone, but the larger community. Can you talk a little bit about that and how that plays into resilience for you?

Yeah, I was on a panel recently. It was pretty cool. There's this conference and we spoke and then right after us, Jason Sudeikis spoke, you know, Ted Lasso. And the conference was a lot about mental health, but one of the panelists was talking about how, you know, they impact millions and millions of people through their donations on food assistance programs. And I remember thinking, gosh, I don't know that we impact millions of people yet, but what's stuck with me and what I really feel strongly about is there's, There's a story of an old man coming out to the ocean and there's a boy picking up the starfish that have washed up on the beach and he's picking them up and he's throwing them back in the water. And the old man says to him, you know, you're never going to be able to get to all these starfish. Just like at the end of the day, this just doesn't matter. And the little boy picks up another starfish and throws it back in the water. He says, it mattered to that one. And I think when it comes to community building, there's something about the power of one-to-one that is just really, really powerful. And at Roan, we have this event series that we call Mind and Muscle, and we've done them all over the country. We've impacted thousands and thousands of people. We will do a bodyweight workout, and then we will have kind of a group therapy session where we'll talk about what's going on in their lives. And, um, what has come out of some of these meetings— people have talked about challenges with their relationships, they've talked about challenges, um, with, with suicide and depression and addiction. And there's this level of feeling like if I share the worst of myself with someone else and I feel accepted by them, that safety comes back to me and it allows me to allows me to feel safe and then to accept others. And so I think that's pretty poignant work and it's impactful and it's this idea of a ripple. And so, you know, community work really, really matters to me. I was the benefit of a strong community growing up and where much is given, much is required. And I feel a need to give back and share that back with others.

I think it's so incredibly cool that you do this work and I think it's so important and it, I think, you know, what you were just talking about there made me think about, you know, some of the research we were talking about this earlier was this sense of control, feeling like we have some agency and sense of control in the face of hard things, hard challenges really does put us in a position to be resilient. And I think to your point, inviting people into the struggle with you, allowing, allowing someone else to come in, actually, I think helps provide that sense of, I can do this. I can, I have a little bit more control here. I have a little bit more agency rather than succumb to the challenge, right? So that community creation feels so incredibly important.

Someone sent me an article that was, I think it was in the New York Times a couple months ago called the Amen Effect. And it was about this ancient Jewish text where when someone was struggling in the community, they would walk into a temple. And you could choose, am I feeling good today or am I struggling with something? And if you were struggling with something, I'm going to get this wrong and someone's going to message me on Instagram and tell me that I'm, you know, that I messed it up, but that's okay. I, because the principle is really purpose. Okay. Yeah. Um, if you were struggling with something, you would turn left. And if you felt like you were in a good place, you would turn right. And the idea is then you would come back in a circle. And you would kind of be there for each other. You would say, you know, I'm really struggling with my self-worth. And the other person would say, I'm here for you. I feel you. I'm with you. And this idea of kind of caring for each other in a village is part of the human framework that I think is so powerful and in some ways gets lost over time. But for me, it has been everything to feel like I can be my most vulnerable, my most raw, and to see somebody across from me and say, I'm with you, I'm here with you, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna prop you up. And to try and give that, that is what gives life meaning for me in a lot of ways.

Absolutely. And I'm curious, you know, you're the co-CEO of Roan. How does, how do you bring that same mentality and build that into the culture of Roan? Because I've met some of your team members and, and I know it's there. Right. So how, how have you instilled that as a leader?

Well, there's an old adage, always teach and when necessary use words. And I think there's a lot of truth to that in parenting and, you know, and certainly in building work culture. It's not easy. And it takes consistent real effort. But I think it's also about being intentional. And I think that's something that you guys do so well at FRC is helping people create intention with their days and their weeks and their months and their life. And, you know, for me, I set the intention of what I wanted the culture at Roam to be, how I wanted it to feel, and how I wanted it to manifest. And you can feel when it's not that. And so then you have to ask yourself tough questions. Is this about, do we have the right people? Have we established the right training? Have we created the right framework in order to build these feelings over time. And so, one of the things that we've done is we've put in this program, I think you know about the story called the 12 Pursuits, and this was inspired by Ben Franklin. Ben Franklin was a notorious kind of self-development guru. And so, when he was in his 30s, he developed this system that he called the 13 Virtues. And he basically dedicated his life for 4 weeks at a time towards each one of these virtues because he found it was overwhelming to try and get good at everything. And, you know, he had this desire, I want to be the perfect man. So the reason why he came up with 13, it wasn't because there were 13 colonies. It was because 13 went into 52 weeks evenly at 4 times. So then he could kind of say for 4 weeks out of the year. Now, I think he kind of overcomplicated that we already have a 12-month calendar system. So we decided to say we're going to create what we call the 12 Pursuits, and these are the building blocks of health and wellness. So for example, January was all about perspective, setting your intention for the year, developing a plan. How do you, what do you want to accomplish this year? February has all been about sleep. March is about hydration. April is breathwork. So we kind of picked what we thought were core principles of health and wellness. We have guest speakers come and speak to the team. We challenge each other. How's your sleep going? And I think just by expressing care about the way people live in a workplace has created a feeling of safety and, you know, and hopefully a place where people learn to care about each other in and outside of the work that they're doing for their job.

It's brilliant. And I love it so much for so many reasons. You know, I think that You're doing so many things at Rhone that really create an opportunity or create an environment and culture that supports not just resilience, but group flow as well. Right? So making sure people have the resources in the tank to do their best work, to access flow while also feeling cared about. It's, you know, the opposite of kind of some of these like performative, you know, gestures of like one month is going to be like mental health month or, you know, we're going to do an activity tracker for one month. I think the fact that you've integrated it truly into the entire year. It's part of the conversation. You're touching on it time and time again. Um, it's so powerful.

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, the idea of group flow is such a powerful one and you see it like, that's what's attracted me to FRC and having to become a part of not just, you know, my own individual framework, but how I think and how I think about my family. I mean, I've talked about it with my wife, but I've talked about it at work. I think for work, like getting it integrated into the way that we approach, um, what we're doing and how we focus on things together. That was the other powerful thing about this idea of, you know, taking Benjamin Franklin's lessons. It's so much more powerful when you do it as a community.

Yes.

Right. Because you can support what's working for you. So, you know, in February about sleep, the amount of like sleep hacks that existed just within our team. I had no idea.

Talking about flow, you know, we have to double-click on that. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, first of all, what are your personal high-flow activities? Because you definitely create space in your life for flow.

I think I've gotten a lot better since working with you on that. And I think what I underestimated is how much the little distractions build up over time and take you out of flow. So what I've been maniacal about since the beginning of the year is eliminating and recognizing all the little blockers. Like, it's funny that, you know, the Alexa just went off. That hasn't happened for a month, and I just realized I had just plugged it back in yesterday because I was working from home. And, you know, but there's so many little things like that that I've had to eliminate intentionally. To create flow. So I've, I've become a wake-to-flow person. Thanks to, thanks to Dr. Higgins here. Um, I would say I'm not, I'm not convinced that that's my, like, and this might be against FRC research, that I'm a natural wake-to-flow person, but my wife is a go-to-bed-by-10:00. She's like clockwork that way. And I have to wake up early just to get everything done that I feel like I need to. To have that time. And so what's changed for me is forcing myself to get really good about getting to bed and going to sleep. And my wake-to-flow hours are so productive and I feel so energized by them. And so, so what are some of the activities that I do? Well, I have a whole routine and system that I've already outlined. I don't need to negotiate with myself in the morning. I just get up and I do. I follow the routine and, um, and that creates a lot of productivity for me.

As your coach, I'm very pleased to hear that, by the way.

Gold star.

Good answer.

Nate, I'm curious, how many different ramps do you have into flow? Uh, it seems like you've really got like, you know, the, the way to flow and work dialed for yourself. We were just talking about before we, uh, hit record about, you know, the runs that you've been getting into. How many different opportunities do you have to find flow? In like a given week?

I mean, I think again, it's about setting time intentionally to do that. And, you know, going back to what we were talking about with resilience, creating a mindset that, you know, that you can train this, that you can get better at it, that it's, you know, it's just like anything. And one of the things that has, has been a powerful catalyst for me is I've seen this in mental health. When you think about our emotions are hard things to control, right? Sometimes you just feel sad or you feel angry or you feel excited, and those emotions feel out of control for you. They almost feel separate from your body. And yet when you have a strong emotion, there are physical characteristics associated with those emotions, right? So if you feel angry, it will show up in your face. It will show up in your body posture. It will show up in the way that you're presenting yourself. But what's less obvious is that you can control those signals the other direction. And so part of it for me is there are times when I don't feel like getting into flow. I don't feel like working. And that is the hardest part to learn how to manage. And so what I've learned to do is to use physical things. Things that are more in my direct control to create the emotion around flow. So for example, I have a treadmill desk that I have set up and I just get in there and I put it at a small incline and I always start at a ridiculously slow pace, like just over 2 miles an hour, but I'm moving. And once I'm moving, it's like sitting in an airplane. So I've got the desk, I can, I can type, I can, you know, interact with everything that I need to do. And I set, this is the one thing I have to get done. And it's like being on an airplane. I can't go and I can't leave and go get a snack. I can't be distracted. I'm just locked into this system and I won't get off until I'm done. And, um, you know, eventually over time I'm like, oh, this is really slow. I'm feeling comfortable, increase the pace. But that's a great example of using a physical um, signal to create a flow, uh, opportunity for me. And, and that's something that I, that I depend on.

Do you think the ability— because I think you do prioritize flow both inside and outside of work— how do you think that influences your ability to, to stay resilient in the face of high demands, right? Because you do run a large organization. There is a lot— you're, you're in a high-pressure environment regularly.

Yeah, I mean, I I want to be resilient. I want to be great at my job. I want to be able to show up for my family and my team. And that drive is what gets me to take the actions that I need. I think that's what motivates me more than anything else is I want to be the person that my children and my wife believe me to be when I'm not with them. You know, when I'm, when I'm at a working event and I'm traveling, there. I want— I don't want to be somebody different who shows up differently. I want to be the same person. And so I, I find that the only way to do that for me is to train that resilience. Because again, it doesn't have— it doesn't happen naturally. We live in an environment where it's 70 degrees in our home, in our car, in our office. Like, you know, if you look at the grand scheme of human history, that has— we were in like this tiny sliver of human history where you have not had to worry about the temperature. Food, we can literally press a couple buttons and food gets delivered to us. So if we're not intentional about creating challenge, then it's, you know, there are natural effects that happen as a result of that. Similar to, you know, not exercising or not moving your body. There's no, I know it seems weird, but my office is a gym. My home office is— I can't escape it. I'm going to walk through this multiple times every single week, and it just creates that mindset. So whenever you can find little hacks and opportunities to build that resilience, I think it plays a big role in how you show up in every part of your life.

I couldn't agree with you more. And I want to, I want to underscore something though, that not only are you intentionally inviting challenge into your life and staying gritty, persevering, kind of stoically struggling, But it sounds like you're being equally intentional about how you're choosing to respond to different challenges. And that's almost certainly not always the same way, right? So, is this something, is this something you've thought about and how you even teach your kids how to be resilient? Like, how, how do you respond differently to different types of challenges? How do you stay resilient when there's kind of different demands coming at you? And it's not always put your head down and grind through it, right?

No, it is. No. And that's really important. Um, again, I think it goes back to that idea of like, always teach your children and when necessary use words. It, we have, uh, every year for the last 5 or 6 years, I think it's 6 years now, we have set a family goal. So, um, the first year that we did it, we had created a goal. My wife's parents were living in the Philippines doing humanitarian service work. And the goal was the distance between where we live and the Philippines was something like 8,000 miles. And so we broke it down on a weekly basis on how many miles we needed to move as a family to go the distance between where we lived and the Philippines. And there's a big reward at the end if we could, if we could do this. So every single one of the kids got a little tracker to wear, or we just estimated for our youngest because we didn't, we didn't necessarily need to put anything on him. I think we like put like one of those little $20 step counters on him for a week. And then we were just like, all right, he's, he's probably going to move this much in a week. But we've done a family goal every single year. This year, our goal is to learn Spanish as a family because there are a lot of people in our community that, that, um, have moved here, um, that are, uh, it's a high immigrant population, um, in our local congregation. We want to be able to communicate with them. English is really difficult for them. So we want to do our part. So every single day, our goal is to not miss a single day doing Duolingo every day. And the reward is at the end of the year, we're going to travel to a Spanish-speaking destination that we agree on as a family. And then once a month, each one of us presents a different country. So like February was Argentina. My 8-year-old son presented all about Argentina, why it's a really cool country. And, you know, so So, you know, these are little things that have built, I think, this idea of intention and resilience in, in our kids. And it also just creates like a fun shared family experience. But I'll give you, sorry, I'll give you one more example. I could talk for hours, but the, I think our second year or third year, we decided to do a no sugar challenge, which is probably in, that's what we called it. But it really, what it was is, um, no shameless desserts except for you had, you got like one cheat day a month. So the kids' birthdays, thankfully they were all born different months. Christmas was December. Halloween was October 30th. Like we didn't want to like, you know, we're not, we're not terrible, uh, in terms of like wanting them to experience life.

There was some joy, still some joy.

There was, there was still some joy. And this was, they, I mean, I think we presented like 4 or 5 options and this is what they wanted to do. And I remember my middle son, Will, who's just like, he's just pure joy, this kid. He like, he gets excited about everything. And one of the things for him the year before, he played soccer. Every time we would go to the soccer field, the ice cream truck would pull in and, you know, playing its music. And then after the games, oftentimes we would go and we'd get ice cream, you know, great job. He played hard. So of course, this year, spring soccer rolls around and we get there. And every single week for like 5 weeks, he cried. He was like, why are we doing this? I just want to go get ice cream. And I, and you'd have to say, hey son, we made a commitment. You know, we, we actually all signed an agreement that we put on the fridge. And I know some parents are going to listen to this saying like, you are a cruel parent. But if the hardest thing my son has to learn to do is to go without ice cream after a game of soccer, he's got a pretty good life.

Yeah.

So it's fair. Then when fall soccer came around, I remember the very first week I was like, ah, shoot, ice cream truck's gonna be there. I was like really worried.

Dang ice cream truck.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm like, why do you have to play the music so loud? You know, but here we're 9 months into the challenge and Ice cream truck pulls in, I pull up with Will, and he's like, "This is going to be hard, but I feel like I can do it." And his growth over those 9 months was so incredible that he wasn't even bothered. That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. I think it's a Henry David Thoreau quote. "Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed, but our power to do has increased." So if you can teach the kids, you know, block by block, minute by minute, just keep going and it gets easier. I think that's what we try and model and, and try and build in our, in our family.

And like that lines up completely with the flow science research too, right? Introducing a certain level of challenge under, you know, teaching people so that they have enough skill to deal with it, even if it's a little bit of a stretch, and then progressively increasing that level of challenge. It's not, and it's, it's not even, I mean, in your example, the, the perception of difficulty was the thing that changed because he was more, he had more belief in his own skill set, right? That's it. That's the thing.

From a relative basis.

Yeah.

One of the things that you taught me that has really stayed with me over the last couple of months is I love physical struggle. Like if I go out on a run and I'm like, I didn't used to love this. I've learned to love this. I'm like, this is great. I'm growing. I'm developing. But I didn't have that when it came to work projects. Like if I was in the middle of a work project and I was struggling, I'm like, ah, this is got to go do something else. But the struggle phase is part of the flow phase. So learning to value the struggle phase, I like, that's something I immediately brought home and I'm like, we got to, we got to teach this. Struggling is great. It means that you're, you're about to break through. If you, if you're struggling, great, you're almost there. You know, if you're not struggling, you're not pushing yourself. And I think learning to recognize and name the struggle so that you know where you're at and what's coming, this great reward around the corner, which is flow. I think it's really, I think it's a powerful concept that you guys teach.

It's such a paradigm shift for so many people. Like, actually struggle, frustration, challenge is a positive indicator. Flow is just around the corner if you stay in it. And I think, you know, what we're talking about here is building that resilience. How can we add tools to the toolbox so that we feel confident that we can stay in it long enough to actually get to flow?

Yeah.

Nate, I'm curious, how do you see that transfer? You know, as you and your family are going through these challenges, you're offering support in your home, you know, as the ice cream truck is pulling up, blaring its music, right? How do you see that transfer into the kid, into the things and challenges that your kids are just picking up themselves?

Well, I don't think it's always obvious, right? Like, especially during a challenge or where you're, you know, where you're trying to develop this, it's not always obvious. But I think if you take a longer-term view and a longer-term perspective, it does show up. So I'll give you another example. My 15-year-old, uh, and I did this really amazing hike about 3 weeks ago where we drove 4.5 hours up to the White Mountains. Um, and we camped outside. It was cold. It was like 28 degrees. I have a pop-up tent on my truck, so we popped it up and we slept outside in this tent. And then we woke up at 3 in the morning. And we summited this mountain called Mount Lafayette. There's this series of summits in the White Mountains that are really spectacular. And it was so cold and so snow-packed, we basically had to, you know, it was a 13-mile summit and I think we gained about 4,500 feet of elevation. And again, my 15-year-old, he is such a good kid. I mean, he's just, He's a special kid. And as we're going up there, he said, I said, phew, I was not ready for this. And he's like, well, you know, Dad, there's no progress without pain. And I was like, did I tell him that? Did I say that to him at some point? You know, at some point I must have said something like this. And he's just, you know, I would have never guessed those words would have come out of his mouth 2 to 3 years ago. Never, like, but there's just, I think in the long run, you know, you, if you stay consistent, these things do have a, have an impact.

Yeah. No, that, that, that is awesome. It, you know, it's a trajectory, right? It's a long trajectory of, of health that you're getting at. And you might not see that lesson land, but then your 15-year-old just drops a nugget of knowledge on you as you're, uh, as you're, as you're near the peak and it's 28 degrees outside. And you know, you're cold and probably want to be somewhere warm.

I'll send you a picture at the summit. It was below zero. And, uh, it, you know, the picture of us up on there, we just had the best time. And I had so many people, why did you do this? Was this for school? Was this for— we did it because I had done this with my friends 6 months ago. And I thought, I want to share this with my, with my family. This is such a cool experience. And so we just picked a weekend and we put it in the calendar and we, and, you know, we protected that weekend. I made sure that nothing else was scheduled and, you know, it was an amazing experience. We had so many great conversations about his friends, about school, how he's thinking about, you know, the next stage and, and high school and all, you know, all these different pieces. And, um, we did it because we could, and it was, it was so special. And I, I, again, like, It's funny when you talk to people about why are you taking the time, because if you take the time to zoom out, you're going to realize that you need to be spending a lot more time being intentional with the way that you plan and program your life.

Huge. It's huge. And I think, you know, intentionality, being strategic about making space for truly what's most valuable, I think is some of the most powerful work we try to put out into the universe at FRC. Veronica Morera: I've heard, I've heard so many key takeaways from you today. I just wanna reflect back a couple of them. You know, what I've heard from you is that resilience is really about falling in love with and seeing the opportunity in the struggle in hard things, right? That's the path to flow also. And I think that's an incredibly resilient and optimistic mindset. And that also a key part of staying in that struggle successfully is creating community to be there with you, right? Just kind of reflecting on your journey, because I hear from so many leaders, unfortunately, there's not time for, you know, to protect people to get into flow. There's not time to really think about recovery and sleep and ensuring that our people have the right resources in the tank for flow and health. What advice would you give to leaders when they're thinking about how to make, how to make space for this in their organizations, for flow, for resilience, to bring that to your, to your team?

I mean, first off, I think it's dangerous when you have a platform with a microphone and you can come at this from a place of, you know, superiority, like I figured this all out. I haven't. And, um, I'm figuring it out one day at a time. And, um, and, you know, there's, there's been so many people who have been burned by this idea of, you know, putting someone on a pedestal and trying to mirror or imitate what they do in an effort to find success. And I think the enigma is this idea of balance. I think it's a bad word, um, and when it comes to creating that feeling where you feel like this is working for me. I love the word harmony so much more than I do balance. And what I mean by that is how can these things work together to create something more beautiful together than they can by keeping them in these appropriate separate boxes? And, you know, there are so many examples of that in my life where it's like, hey, we're going to have a backyard movie. In our backyard, I'm going to invite our whole team to come and, you know, the Roam team can show up and we're going to bring a pizza truck. And I was going to do this with my kids anyways. Now we can do it together, right? Or I can bring my kids on a work trip with me. Or more practically for most people, what am I learning from a budgeting standpoint or a long-term planning standpoint that I can bring into my family planning that I'm probably not doing today? And so I think instead of viewing these two things at odds with each other, how can you view them as complementary of each other and just shift that mindset slightly to say, how can we create harmony here? And just keep working at it. And I think the best, the people I respect and admire the most create systems and tools to check in and they adjust what's not working. I'm going to make an adjustment. What is working? Keep doing that thing.

You know me, I love the feedback loops, the tight feedback loops all the time. And I, I think beautifully said, because when we separate who we are at work and then our health and our personal life and our families, they inevitably are going to compete with one another. But what you're saying is really to be resilient, to stay in the hard things, we have to look for the harmony, the synergy, the opportunity to show up in every aspect of our lives, right? We, we, we shouldn't be segmenting. These things. And I think that's, I think that's an incredibly powerful lesson.

Yeah. And I don't think it's about, I mean, I think you probably train a lot of people who come looking for efficiency, but efficiency isn't the name of the game in and of itself. It's, you know, as Stephen Covey used to say, you can climb a ladder really aggressively only to find that it's leaning against the wrong wall. And I think, you know, it's about being intentional. And then building the efficiency once you have that intentionality, that's when it's really powerful to get those, the flow cycles tight and, but to make sure that you're marching towards the right things, that's more important.

Amazing. Nate, so much wisdom, just humble wisdom, mind you. I really took so much from this conversation today. Where can our audience tune in to continue to follow you? You know, continue to absorb the smart things that you put out into the world and learn more about your—

Well, I'm not as active on social media as our team wants me to be. But I, you know, I do post things on LinkedIn and Instagram from time to time, and I just try and share things that I find helpful. But you're too kind with your words. I've learned far more from you guys than I could possibly share in an hour-long session. So I appreciate you having me.

I'm so grateful that you're part of our collective and our community. It's always, it's always awesome to hang out with you. I always learn things from you as well. So thanks, Nate. I really appreciate it. I can't wait to share, share these takeaways with our listeners too.

Awesome. Thanks so much, guys.

Thanks, Nate.