Peak Collaboration: Team Flow with Dr. Jef J. J. van den Hout

Welcome to Flow Radio. I'm Ryan Wicks, Chief of Staff at the Flow Research Collective, and with me is our Chief Science Officer, Dr. Michael Mannino, and our esteemed guest, Dr. Jeff J.J. Vanden Hout. Dr. Vanden Hout has a PhD in conceptualization and measurement of team flow. He's on a mission to help teams worldwide achieve this state. As the founder of Flow Concepts, he simplifies the intricate dance of team interactions to that help guide organizations to redefine how their teams create and innovate to achieve common goals. Jeff is an associate researcher at the Eindhoven University of Technology and the Erasmus University Rotterdam. His work focuses on flow, team flow, and optimal collaboration in high-challenge and high-skill environments. Through his work with Flow Concepts and the Team Flow Academy, Jeff turned science into practical tools that spark team flow in the workplace. Today, we'll dive into Jeff's pioneering research and expertise in creating conditions that enhance teamwork and lead to innovative and impactful results. Jeff, it's an absolute pleasure to have you with us today.

Yes. Thanks for being here, Jeff. Thanks for being here.

Thank you. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you, Michael.

Yes.

We're very familiar with the concept of flow here at the Flow Research Collective, and so is our audience. But can you break down how the difference between team flow and how it differs from individual flow?

Yes, very good question, because I also needed to answer that question when doing my literature review on the conceptualization of team flow. And yeah, you could argue if personal flow or individual flow is different from group flow or team flow. and I think the answer is yes, it is different, but I also think that individual team members, when they are part of a team, need to be experiencing individual flow when executing their personal task or role in a team. So it's an aggregate, and this aggregate is characterized by a specific team dynamic. which I call prerequisites for team flow. And, uh, some examples of, uh, these prerequisites are, uh, a collective ambition, uh, clear challenging team goals, aligned personal goals, uh, commitment on those goals. So those are examples of prerequisites that define the team dynamic. There are more prerequisites. We can get in, uh, detail about that later. but, um, uh, they set the conditions to be able to experience flow on the individual level, and the aggregate makes it special. Then you have a sense of unity with your team. Uh, you have a, a focus that is holistic. So, uh, you execute your personal task. Your, the concentration on those personal task is in harmony with the, with, with, with the joint actions or the coordinated actions of the team. So that makes it, uh, that makes it different. And also I think, uh, you know, when you share these moments, yeah. Uh, yeah. You remember them like, oh yeah, you were also part of that dynamic, you know? So that's really, uh, amazing, I think, of this, uh, in being in sync together. Yeah. Yeah.

That's great. I wanna come back to that being in sync together. Um, two, two questions you made me think of there, Jeff. One is, do you hear about interpersonal flow, collective flow, social flow, group flow, team flow, and I was wondering if you had any thoughts about, uh, that, the terminology. Uh, and then there's some research on interpersonal flow, um, at the collective level and then interpersonal flow at the individual level. So, um, and that leads to this idea of an aggregate. So from your work, do you see that there is a whole is greater than the sum of the parts kind of experience? Uh, yes. Or, or is it an aggregate of individuals in flow that come together in team flow?

Yeah, I think there is an extra, there's a plus where you, uh, uh, so the sum is more than the, the, uh, of, uh, uh, yeah. Do I, do I say it right? The whole is greater than the sum. The whole is more than the, yeah, exactly. So, um, the difference between, uh, group flow and team flow, I think it's quite similar. But, um, if you, uh, look for definitions about groups and definitions about teams, You see that, uh, that the team differs from a group because the team members are mutually accountable. So, uh, so in my model, uh, you have that mutual commitment. Um, you have, uh, that, that is shared, uh, challenging team goal. Uh, and, and, and you need to walk the talk. And often in my presentations, I explain also the difference. I was a spinning instructor, you know that, on a cycle for 7 years. And then there's a group there, but they are not really mutual accountable. There is some accountability of, uh, uh, mutual accountability of, uh, in that group because we all, uh, cycle on the same music, you know. But if someone goes slower, yeah, they are not so tightly connected that, that they cannot, uh, like when cycling on, on the way outside. So, um, so there you have that, uh, yeah, uh, a connectedness that you are really, uh, So connected, if someone makes a mistake or goes slower, then the other, uh, suffer from that.

Yeah, that's, that's great. So what I'm hearing there is one of the main differences between team flow and group flow is that in team flow there's, uh, a dependency among the individuals that does not exist in, in just group flow or group situations. So yeah, there's a, there's a, a dependency, a mutual accountability.

They are couples. Yes, they are couples, but, uh, they are in a group, they are loosely coupled, and in a team they are really tightly coupled. Okay, great.

Wow. Interesting. Okay. So the connectivity, the interconnectivity is, is, is a tight coupling between, um, between all the nodes in a network, all the members of a, a group in a team flow, in a team flow situation, I should say.

Yeah. That, I think that makes a difference between a team and a group. Yeah.

Um, but, and you do think there is this Um, 'cause I wanna later in the conversation get into maybe ask you some of the neuroscience, 'cause I'm a neuroscientist and of course I just wanna talk a little bit about at the level of the brain what it looks like, team flow. But the, there's a whole greater, whole is greater than the sum of the parts in a team flow situation. And that's that sense, uh, that's those, you talk about, um, these 7 prerequisites. So open communication, psychological safety, um, mutual commitment, aligned personal goals, high skill integration, um, collective ambition. And I want to come back to that. And then when all those prerequisites are met, yeah, or insufficient— sufficiently dialed up, you get these 4 characteristics that show up, which you were talking about. A sense of, uh, unity. And that sense of unity is sort of indicative of this whole is greater than the sum of the parts phenomenon that you're experiencing. Team flow.

If you add up those 4 characteristics, like sense of unity, a sense of making joint progress together, mutual trust and a shared holistic focus. If you sum them up, there you, there you also see it or you feel it like as, okay, this is a team that's really making progress.

Yeah.

And then uplifting feeling also. Uh, so, uh, yeah, I think that's the magic of team flow. Okay.

So let's maybe unpack this notion of collective ambition, cuz I know in your work it starts with collective ambition.

Yeah.

And then you discuss how, um, The, it is sort of the, the prerequisites that need to happen first are this idea of open communication and, um, I think it's, um, a shared goal commitment or, or I think, I believe.

Yeah.

But let's unpack a little bit like this notion of collective ambition. How does that get established and, and what is, what is this idea of collective ambition?

So, uh, for individual flow, you have, uh, uh, that, uh, it is intrinsically rewarding, eh? So it's also, uh, intrinsic motivation. So you, eh, you really passionate about, uh, kind of, uh, certain sports or activity or, uh, an instrument, whatever. Hey, you really love to play that instrument, for instance. Uh, and, and with collective ambition, it's a shared intrinsic motivation to pick up a common task together and work as a team. So that task, that common task can be really important or really fun to do. And, um, if you look to, to business organizations, then, uh, we talk about a purpose, a shared identity, uh, shared values, uh, but also recognition of complementary skills. So, yeah, you need also to accept someone in the team, so he needs to have certain skills or certain values. So that's also part of the collective ambition. And then also, uh, the drive and the positive energy that, uh, yeah, that, that, that person has or with it or what that exists between people. So, uh, that's all part of the collective ambition. And I think it's really, uh, uh, important to have that because then the collaboration goes also more effortless.

Yeah.

So, uh, because you know what is important, what you like to do and how you want to achieve that. So, uh, So when making decisions, you don't have too much argue, argue or, uh, conflicts. You can easily solve them if they are there. Yeah. Yeah.

I wanna get, I wanna get back to that notion about a cognitive friction, let's call it, or, or, uh, disagreement and, and how that shows up in the appropriate way and in the right context in, in flow. But wanna ask first, so that's great. This, this, uh, this unpacking of collective ambition. Shared values, shared intrinsic motivation, and so on that you're saying is part of this notion of collective ambition. So I like that because you need to, when you study this empirically and you do all these studies, you have to sort of operationalize strict definitions about what these words mean. So I appreciate your work very much because you've done that so well. To, to be able to like really get very specific scientifically about these words. And 'cause we all use them colloquially and we throw them around, but it's, it's, it's great when you have work like yours because it really operationalizes so that you could test this stuff and then validate it scientifically. Question about just in general, this notion of team flow, because you have a lot of situations in sports where it's, it's quite you know, common, especially, you know, in soccer and as we say here in the States and so on. And you see it, right? In American football, you like, you see when a team is in flow and they make the amazing pass and it's just amazing to see that. Translate that to workplace. Like, so we hear about these companies like Apple and Pixar and Amazon that have created these environments very, very conducive to team flow. And so you talk about like workplace dynamics and that's a lot of your work was in that context, right? And entrepreneurs and leadership and knowledge workers and so on. So I mean, it shows up as the same phenomenon, right? Team flow is team flow is team flow, no matter what context. But there are contextual differences. And that's, that's like a question, open question. And can you discuss that? How does, how do you translate from like sports to workplace dynamics?

Yeah. So, uh, my conceptualization of team flow was focused on, uh, on, uh, workplace, uh, organizations, but I do think it's quite generic. So you can also apply that, uh, to, to sport teams. Um, but, uh, uh, yeah, the context is also really important for flow. Huh. So, uh, I also did some research about, okay, what are the impediments of team flow? And then, yeah, you have a certain kind of culture could impede team flow, but it all has to come together. So I cannot say this time in a very hierarchical organization, team flow is not possible. It is possible there. For instance, I'm also part of the the Dutch Navy, I also work there part-time as a reserve marine officer. And I see a lot of flow happening or team flow happening there because they are trained and the hierarchy is necessary there in the field. But I'm also a coach of the Solar Team Eindhoven, which is, they build solar cars, it's a student competition. And our university team has been a world champion for 4 times in Australia during the World Solar Challenge, and also in the US, there's also a solar race there. And they have a flat organization, and that I think is really important, the collective ambition there. It takes them 3 months to decide on a collective ambition because the first 3 months they decide on what kind of car they are going to build. Will it be a, a, a truck or a race car or a, a cruise, uh, for the cruiser class? So they need to decide on that. And, um, uh, and everyone needs to, uh, uh, yeah, needs to agree on that. So that's really, uh, important. And there are many conflicts there, but they need to solve all those conflicts and then, and then decide, and then all, and all behind that decision. So that is, uh, that is really important. And that also, uh, points out that it is also important for artists not to be in flow because by definition, if you reflect, you're not in flow.

Wow. You just made me think of another question, a really interesting one. Um, so the, okay. So in, in individual flow, there's a loss of self-referential thinking, right? You lose yourself. And then if it comes back, that could be a distraction because then it could pull you out of flow and so on. Now, okay, so in, in collective flow or in team flow, so I wanna get neuroscience real quick.

Yeah.

So there's this, there's this idea and some of our folks know about the, you know, know about this, this concept of the default mode network in the brain. Oh yeah.

Okay.

That goes away, right? The default mode network of the brain is involved in our self-referential thinking and thinking about ourself and daydreaming and mind wandering and also imagination and creativity. So you, you do have some on, you do have some, um, some activation and connection of the default mode network to other networks in the brain when you're in flow. But generally like this loss of sense of self goes away and that's, that's coming from the default mode network. But in team flow, when you're, when you're agreeing or disagreeing with somebody or you're sharing a collective ambition, you have to, um, understand that they have states of mind. And so that's also involved in like this, this so-called theory of mind in psychology and neuroscience. It's parts of the brain that are involved in the default mode network. I understand, like, I see you're nodding. I know that you have desires, wishes, intentions, things that you like to do as well. And I understand that. And that's called theory of mind. And so that, that does show up. And I imagine you need that in team flow. So I'm wondering. If there is a, you know, when we really get into the neuroscience of team flow, which we're not yet, the field is like very, very, very, very new, that there we might see some really, you know, differences in terms of the activation of these, the default mode network in particular in team flow versus individual flow. Did that make sense?

Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And it is, uh, also really important to know in what kind of phase you are and, uh, what, uh, what kind of activity you're doing together, right? Because every, uh, like building a new car has all kinds of activity and sometimes reflection is really important and sometimes just action is important. So you need to, uh, try, try to manage that, uh, also be aware of that.

So what I'm hearing also you're saying before is that, um, so team flows, team flows, team flow shows up in many different scenarios, workplace dynamics, sports, military. But context is also important. Am I right in summarizing what you're saying, that the context sort of has an effect on which prerequisites show up and in what amount and can have an effect on that? Is that correct?

Yeah, I think that the conditions and prerequisites are generic, but the way you make them emerge or come to them together, agree on them together, that is really context dependent. So if, yeah, so for coaches, for instance, I train a lot of coaches in the Netherlands to become a Team Flow coach. And yeah, you, you, you need to make them aware about the context and what works in this context and what does not work in this context. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also the history that the team has together, how long do they exist, how long do they work together, or did they have problems in the past? So, uh, yeah, all aspects of coaching, eh?

Jeff, I'm really curious in that context, you know, what advice— how are you facilitating those conversations with coaches, with CEOs? You know, what is kind of the interview look like as you start to help them transfer these concepts into the context of their organizations and their teams? You know, where do you start with them with those conversations to kind of help them then realize how these concepts apply in their environments?

Often I'm asked to do public speaking within organizations here on business events and then Often they are enthusiastic about my presentation and I was, okay, we would like also to do this in our organization. And then I try to find a group that voluntarily comes together with a few sessions. And then I inspire them more, get more into the details of team flow. What is individual flow? What is team flow? What can you do about that? I show them some examples of videos. YouTube. Okay, this, uh, here is a team flow, is an individual flow. What do you think? What, uh, is presented there? So they get a better understanding of, uh, of what it is. Uh, and then also I said we can also measure it with a, with a survey, with a questionnaire. Uh, and then we can discuss it. And it's not that we really measure flow. I think, uh, Michael's work is much more important for that because they, you are really objectively, um, right, measuring. team flow. But, uh, with my, um, questionnaire measuring the conditions, we open the conversation and then we are unraveling team flow in a specific context, in a, in a specific team. And we, uh, guide them, uh, with having the right conversation. Talk about safety, talk about open communication, what that is about setting goals and what are the goals that we have to agree on. And that discussions, uh, affects them and that discussion makes it that they experience, uh, easier team flow together. And I also, uh, study that. I, I send out for 6 months every month the team flow monitor and then every month the team coach discusses this, uh, with the teams whether it was measured. And we learn, yeah, we teach them how to, to set these conditions or make them important, and they, they become aware that they are important, so they start to organize them themselves. They create the team dynamic themselves, right?

So they build you around those prerequisites like safety, open communication. Yeah, and so on. Yeah, yeah. So we're talking about, um, like, uh, like factors that influence team flow. Ryan, your question made me think about some, some barriers to team flow and, and Jeff, you mentioned a little earlier about conflict and resolving conflicts and disagreements. So, um, we know that there's barriers to individual flow, like being distracted, um, not being in the right mindset, um, self-sabotage, overwhelm. Uh, there's a lot of research on the intersection of burnout and flow, um, as well. Uh, and so I'm wondering, can you speak a little bit about some of the barriers to team flow? And those dynamics. And, and, and yeah, I guess like, can you just— can you disagree and still be in team flow, right? Of course you can, but what does that look like?

I think conflict is really important because then you set the right goals together. But I ask a lot of individual team members to just answer an open question: why do you not experiencing flow in this team? And then I categorized these impediments, barriers. And often it were motivational issues, like cold work, disengagement. I don't like this, or I don't think this is the right thing to do. It's not important right now. So that is one, motivational issues. Another one is interpersonal, interpersonal issues. Within the process of collaboration. So miscommunication or negativity, that was maybe one of the top answers. So negativity, yeah, yeah, yeah. You need negativity also, but too much negativity really creates a climate where people don't want to be part of. So that's really an issue, I think, an important one. Yeah. And unresolved conflict that also brings negativity. But, uh, yeah, they just don't disagree. So you don't, then often people decide, okay, I'm not going to do this anymore. I'm not part of this anymore. So, uh, yeah, so you always need to try to resolve conflict and then conflicts is something that really makes a team more cohesive.

So miscommunication, negativity, um, motivational issues, um, and unresolved conflicts.

Yeah.

And I have other ones, task-related issues also. So ambiguity, disorganization, work pressure, lack of challenge, that are examples. So the bullshit jobs, yeah, that in a lot of organizations, a lot of bureaucracy, there's a lot of things, yeah, we are here, but why we are really needed, that also happens. So, uh, exists. So, uh, that is, uh, yeah. And, uh, the lack of challenge, that's also, uh, yeah, yeah, you need to challenge people always.

Another challenge skills balance a lot in individual flow.

Yeah, that's I think the main, uh, part of the individual flow. So also on team level, you need to balance, uh, uh, uh, so the collective, uh, challenge, uh, and their unification of their strengths. So, uh, that also needs to, uh, Much.

It then makes sense why high skill integration is having people with different skill sets and integrating them in the right way so that they can have a collective challenge and they can all meet the collective challenge and have that challenge be sufficiently, you know, challenging enough. It's just weird extrapolating the— it's not weird, it's very interesting to extrapolate the challenge skills balance as one of the main individual flow triggers to the collective environment. To, to the group. Yeah.

And what I also, uh, what is nice to relate to individual flow is the merging of action and awareness. And in team flow, you could say it's the merging of collective awareness and their joint action.

Oh wow. Yeah, that's amazing. Wow.

That creates a sense of making joint progress. But, uh, yeah.

How would you say team flow affects things like motivation and creativity and innovation? Think like things like that within a team. Specifically talking about, because we just mentioned motivation and how does team flow affect those kinds of characteristics, team creativity, team motivation?

I think every experience of flow or team flow makes people, oh yeah, I want more of that. So there's also a team flow. So what would be our next joint goal? So that's great. So there's an ongoing collective ambition. That's why also in my animation, it's a heartbeat. So we want to go out the next step. And I have one student of mine, he also measured and found a significant correlation between team flow and team creativity. So the team is more creative. That was in a professional organization. So that's nice. And Uh, yeah, there are many more, uh, uh, benefits for team flow. I think, uh, I also found, uh, in student project teams that there's a significant correlation between team flow and team performance. And then what was really interesting in that study was that I found that, uh, the, the experience of team flow brings more individual happiness. So, and so the, the, the experience brings more happiness. It's really logical. So but also, and the prerequisites bring the better team performance. So, uh, and that is what every organization wants because then teams do well and perform well or feel well and do well.

And so when you, when you're in it, when you have the state of team flow and that increases individual happiness, then, um, that's great for the workplace. That's great for the organization because then it can have an effect on being in flow individually. So is that, is that correct? Like you, you, you're in a, you're in a team flow situation, it lasts for a good while, and then, um, you, you leave that situation, you leave the team flow situation, so you're no longer in team flow, but can you still be in individual flow, and then can that last a while as well? Is that, is that correct?

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But, uh, I think, yeah, if you have team flow in an organization of when, uh, when in, in an organization where teams do experience team flow quite often on a regular basis, because you don't have, you cannot be in flow all the time. And then also in different kind of teams, because when you partner organizations, then you work together with them, then with them, then with them. So it happens like a flock of starlings, they also form groups like that. It's the holy grail because you have people that feel well and really perform well in the most efficient, way. So that's, uh, yeah, that's really amazing when you have that. Yeah. So you have that, uh, and it creates a positive work atmosphere because everyone is enthusiastic, more creativity, uh, more team, uh, competence, uh, meaningful experiences. So, uh, yeah, it's really, uh, worth it.

And you said you had a student working on the intersection of team flow predicts more team creativity.

Yeah.

Um, that's fascinating. I wanted to unpack that for just a second. Do you Uh, so one interesting thing is how, how you're measuring, how you, how would you measure team creativity, um, versus individual creativity? And, um, and then, uh, and then team flow also predicts team performance. That's also interesting as well. Can you unpack the team creativity component?

Uh, yes. Uh, so he, he studied that, uh, uh, creativity that, that the team as a whole is more creative. He had a, okay. Skill for that. So it was with a survey, with a team flow monitor also. And then also, uh, uh, there was a skill about transformative, uh, leadership. So that was also included in that study and that had an effect. So, uh, on this relationship. So, um, interesting. This was really a, yeah, a good finding. It was a student, uh, master thesis project. So, uh, we should, uh, continue with that research, but, uh, Yeah, it was, uh, the, the data was collected within a, within a few professional organizations. So, uh, yeah, I think, uh, it's a good indication that team flow leads to more team creativity.

Our very recent study came out from, uh, Drexel University and, and John Koinios, who we're collaborating with as well, his, his lab, they did some research. It was individual flow, but it was on creativity, that individual flow predicts creativity. And, um, they had this, uh, expertise plus release model. So they actually did it. It was a neuroscience study. And they did it on jazz musicians and jazz improvisation. So they were looking at creativity in that particular domain. And he, there's a bunch of research on, on, you know, the neuroscience of creativity and in flow as well. And I'm wondering if there's also like this joint team creativity marker, you know, that we could uncover as well. That would be super fascinating. I mean, I'm sure there is one. It's just like a, you know, a joint neuromarker for team creativity. That shows up when you're in team flow.

Yeah. Yeah. That would be really amazing if you find that one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There was, there, there's one study and I guess this is a good time to mention it. There's one study by, uh, Muhammad Shahada who we also collaborate with as well at Flow Research Collective. Um, he did the first study, I think it was like back in 2021 on, um, uh, finding a, a, uh, team flow is a unique brain state among individuals. So it is at the level of the brain, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

It's.

There's one joint neuromarker that only exists at the group level and not in any one individual brain. It just is at the aggre— it exists at the aggregate level. And so, and he found synchrony and he found really interesting brainwave activation. And he was, you know, in that study they, they did these three conditions. They did the flow condition without team. They did the team condition. Without flow, and then they did the team flow condition and they found all of these results only in the team flow condition. So it was really compelling. So I'm wondering if there's also like a, a team creativity condition that we would find as well. That's, that's amaz— yeah, that's more of a future direction. So I'm skipping, I'm, I'm jumping the gun here a little bit, but yeah.

I'm really curious to know when it comes within that transformational leadership model, are there any characteristics of leaders that lead to or can lead, uh, high-flow teams? Are there anything specifically that you're learning, uh, in that, in that context?

Yeah, uh, I, I answer the question from my own experience then, uh, but I think, uh, a leader should really, uh, uh, yeah, observe what kind of, uh, team is in front of him, what the team needs, uh, what kind of leadership he needs to show. And, and important, I think most important, I often get a question, okay, where's leadership in your model? Yeah, a good leader makes sure that the conditions can be met by the team themselves and he facilitates them and, and he creates a positive atmosphere also. But also sometimes when it's important, he can also be, uh, be more strict and, uh, get, uh, get real. But, uh, it's, um, it's important that he facilitates them, that the team itself creates the conditions. Because I think, uh, at least when he, when he's not part of the team, he should be able to step back and the team goes, and then he needs to leave them doing their thing.

You know, it makes me wonder, how can constructive criticism right, as a form of feedback contribute to sustaining team flow and enhancing team learning and adaptability?

I think that serves the open communication because I always say that it's positive, direct, and constructive. And when the team is really a team, a cohesive team, they can handle that constructive. So they can be criticized. They want that.

Yeah.

For instance, in the beginning of my PhD, I found it quite difficult to receive feedback. It felt— I took it personal. But later on I thought, oh, it's really helpful. So then I asked more people to, to, to, for feedback. So when you become aware of that and when you can handle that, yeah, you want that. Yeah.

Yeah. Maybe this is a question for both of you then. How have you learned to respond to feedback over time throughout your careers? Because we know how critical it is. We need it. In the best circumstances, we're working with well-meaning leaders. Is that just experience, getting enough repetitions and receiving constructive feedback? Or have you found other ways to cope with it and kind of make sense of it in your work?

I find that one of the biggest things is having a growth mindset. So mindset matters here, I think, in in that as well. And so having a, you know, having that want and desire to learn, that's why lifelong learning and having that sort of psychological framework is so important. So having a growth mindset, it really facilitates the ability to receive feedback. And that's a cognitive thing. So there's an emotional thing and a cognitive thing. And Jeff, correct me if I'm wrong or just jump in, but like the, the, the intellectual component of, of receiving feedback, you can sort of, you can train both, but having that mindset, having a growth mindset is more of like a cognitive, I would say, aspect. Then there's the emotional aspect, right? So you can still have a growth mindset and be open to feedback, but then when you actually get feedback, even if it's constructive, there's, there, your, your brain naturally might see that as a threat.

Yep.

And, right? And so you will have an emotional reaction. I'm sure the limbic system and the amygdala and the, all of these systems in the brain that are involved in threat detection probably become active, but maybe they're dampened when you have that top-down cognitive growth mindset. So you're able to control your emotions and regulate your emotions. And I think that's an important, a really important component to being able to turn that feedback into action, right? To use that feedback, especially in a team environment.

I totally agree on that. yeah, you need to become aware that you need feedback to make progress. And also, emotional intelligence, I think it's really also an important aspect of, of team flow. That could disturb team flow as well if people not have a high intelligence with their emotions or not really aware of their emotions or show empathy to other team members. And a good example, maybe a personal example, is I joined the Navy when I was 18 years old. Then I did the basic military training. So you have a drill sergeant and they really put a lot on, on you. And then sometimes it's quite hard to take that. And I joined the Navy as a reserve, uh, just a few months ago. So in between, it's 28 years.

Wow.

Of personal development. So, uh, and I did the kind of same training again with a drill sergeant. And, um, so, but now it was much easier to take all that because I know why they do that and I understand that. And I, I also know after this training then we all, we become friends. So, uh, yeah, that did happen.

Yeah, emotionally more mature.

So yeah, that's also in teams. Yeah, so you need to be aware, okay, what kind of team members do we have? What is our maturity state?

Yeah, having a high level of emotional maturity across the team members, I guess, is so important. You hear about that phrase IQ gets you hired and EQ gets you promoted. Yeah, IQ is very individual and EQ is very social, right? And interpersonal intelligence or emotional intelligence is very social component. So that's so important in the Teamflow environment.

Yeah. And I think my EQ was not that high. Uh, often if I present, uh, I also would tell, I know a lot about Teamflow, but I'm not a team worker. Yeah, for sure. Well, I was not a team worker. I needed to learn that because, uh, when I was younger, I was always, uh, the smart kid in the class, um, at school. Uh, yeah. But I was also someone, okay, okay, do you not understand that? Give that task to me and I will come back to it when it's finished, you know? So I was really not kind or, uh, also I had some ego, and, and, and I think that it related to my maybe insecurity or low self-esteem. And later on when I developed myself on these, confidence levels and, yeah, so, I become more aware and I, and, uh, it happened a few, two, a few years ago that a team member of my, in my football soccer team said, oh, it's really nice to be part, uh, uh, Yeah, to play with you because you are also open for coaching. And, uh, and, uh, yeah, I, I always, uh, mentioned, okay, good, uh, good pass or good, uh, well done or things. Yeah, I am aware of that. A lot of people need that. So that's that, maybe that empathy, uh, that's really important.

Yeah, you just made me think of something else I also wanted to ask too, but I want to ask something first. Oh yeah, back to this idea, because we're talking about constructive criticism and feedback and, and the dynamics between individuals and a team environment. So like Cognitively and emotionally, you were talking about this. I'm, I'm interested in this more of this idea of disagreement. So like you get, it takes an emotional maturity to learn how to disagree. And of course disagreement doesn't mean disrespect. And a lot of times like we, we feel like we're disrespected when, when, when actually there's this just, it's just a disagreement. And, um, and we have to, so that's something that we, I think we, we can train a cr— as with the idea of critical thinking, uh, to, to learn how to disagree. But that's sort of a cognitive thing, it's an intellectual thing. Like, we can disagree, but there's also like that underlying emotional thing. Like, you have to be emotionally mature and have a, uh, regulate your emotions and a high level of interpersonal intelligence to be able to disagree in the right way and at the right time to find a better solution, you know. So that's very interesting. Jeff, you made me think about something which I would like your opinion on very much as a researcher in team flow. So in individual flow, we, we have this idea of the flow cycle. Okay. So in, in, in individual flow, there's these phases that we go through in the flow cycle. Then we talk about the struggle phase, uh, which there's— you're explicitly learning things, there's a little bit of frustration. And, and so on. So it's, it's a, it's, you, you just don't drop into flow. You have to struggle first, then release. You let go. This is a sort of sense of just letting go, giving yourself to the moment. And there are different cues and triggers and habits and behaviors that people can do to learn to let go. And then you get into the flow state. And then after the flow state, because it's so exhausting or can be exhausting biologically and cognitively and mentally, you recover. So there's the recovery phase and then you, you, you go around and this is along the lines of folks that have studied the creativity cycle, like mental preparation, then incubation, then creativity, then verification. Herbert Benson has some work on this as well. So we talk a lot about that at the Flow Research Collective and we're doing research right now on this idea of flow cycle, but it's always in the individual context and I'm wondering if that extrapolates to the group context, the team flow. Is there, is there a team flow cycle?

Yeah.

And, and is there something like a collaboration cycle? And what does, what, what, what would that look like? How does that show up? And do teams go through it? Like, I would imagine, you know, we're, we're in team flow, but now there's a struggle. We're not in flow. And then we have a group release maybe, um, where someone leads that and then we, we get into a team flow state and then we recover as individual. So talk about what are your thoughts on that, or have you had some thoughts on that?

Yeah, I think it's quite similar. Yeah. Uh, it's an individual flow. I think you also, as a group, you have a, uh, a struggle. Uh, then you need to, from that struggle, you set a goal. Okay. That we need to improve this. Then you start collaborating on that. Then you need to find each other. Maybe you need to train, get trained together. Um, And then on a certain moment, people emerges, and then it's there, and then it evades. Is that the right word?

Yeah, evades.

Yeah. And then you need to see, okay, you need to enjoy, I think, afterwards, celebrate. Okay, this was really nice. Cool. What can we learn from it? So you have reflection, recovery first, and reflection. Yeah. And then, again, can you start talking about new, new goals maybe? But then sometimes you forget to talk about, uh, about the next step and then you get that struggle, I think then. And so the struggle is necessary to set a new goal if you forget to set new goals. Yeah. Wow.

That's great. That's super helpful.

Yeah.

It's super practical. Um, yeah. And like, it's interesting too, cuz what timescale does the individual flow cycle exist on? Sometimes it can happen really quickly in your public speaking. You have that struggle and pre-performance anxiety. You do your release and you drop into flow and so on. And so I'm wondering, or sometimes it's a lot longer. And so I'm wondering in team flow, if you also have that as well. So it can happen like over months, you know, or maybe it can happen within one meeting or one activity that you're trying to do at that point.

Yeah. I also have a personal flow trajectory and a team flow trajectory. That I do with my, uh, uh, uh, trainings. And then with the, the, the flow trajectory is more like, okay, you have to plan and prepare, uh, an activity. Then you start training the activity. And, and I often do it with, um, yeah, some simple activities, uh, like a nerve spiral. Do you know what that is? It's like a buzzer. So you need to train with, uh, you have these eyes and it goes you know, yeah, very simple task, but it's quite, uh, challenging and there's the bus. So there's also some, uh, fear for failure maybe. So then with that activity you can easily train, uh, to get in flow because you can plan, okay, uh, okay, how far will I get through this new spiral? So, uh, what can I do with my breathing, for instance? What, what are my anchor points for the activity? Then you have that mental, uh, performance plan, then you can start training. So you're actually going to do, perform the activity, and then, okay, now it's game on. Now you have to try to get in flow. So we need to act and see, uh, uh, if you are able to experiencing flow and get, uh, by focusing on the task.

Yeah.

Then recover and then reflect, make new plan, new, uh, preparations for this should be the next goal, what you can do better with maybe with breathing or with, uh, a mantra in your head. So, uh, yeah. So that's also kind of cycle that I do with trajectory with, uh, with trainings, making, making people aware of flow. Yeah.

That's one of the, the most important models that we have for individual flow is this idea of a flow cycle. And if you know about it, you know what phase you're in, you know what needs to be done to get into flow and to get to the next step, you know?

Yeah.

And so imagine a team has aware, had a sort of a team awareness, not a self-awareness, but a team awareness of that, you know, team flow cycle, then, then, then they can maximize it and optimize it in the same way.

And with the team, uh, flow trajectory, I always have an intake with the team. So they need to accept me as a coach or facilitator of, uh, of the, of the, the journey that we're going to achieve. Uh, then I inspire them in the next session. Okay, what is flow? What is team flow? Why is it important? What can you do about it? Uh, we watch some videos and examples, discuss that, and then we translate it to their own team. Then I ask them, I can also measure it in your team. Shall we do that? Mm-hmm. And we send out a team flow monitor and the next session we discuss that and I let, let them themselves diagnose the, the, the results of the, so make the interpretation of the results and then make an improvement plan. I ask them to do that together and then we do the interventions or the improvement actions. And then after a while we do send out the Team Flow Monitor again and see if there was any difference between the conditions and Team Flow. And then we can set a new improvement plan and then you also start the cycle and then we use the Team Flow Monitor. But it's, it's a good way to measure it, to discuss it.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I'd love to get both your opinions, Michael and Jeff, within the flow cycle, we have a good sense of what we need to do at the individual level for recovery.

Yeah.

What does that look like in a team dynamic? Do teams actively recover together? Are there any strategies or activities that teams can do together in that recovery period that kind of helps solidify, you know, the learnings and lessons that they gained within the flow state itself or that period or moment? And then what do teams do as a team to collectively recover?

That makes me think about the Sport lessons and boxing classes that I do during the week. Then we also, after each boxing class, we always do a meditation or the Wim Hof breathing exercise also. And we do that together. And that's nice because then you move from this adrenaline state to a more relaxed state. And then we go after, split up afterwards. So I think Yeah, I think it's really nice to do that recovery together. That, that makes the bonding also stronger. Uh, yeah.

You're not, um, just going off and recovering individually.

Yeah.

You know, but you're actually doing the recovery together at the same time, synchronously.

There's even an Olympic, uh, gold, uh, uh, medal winner here in the Netherlands, Mark Lamberts. He also talks a lot about, uh, uh, about the importance of, uh, flow. He also uses that, uh, He's a hockey field hockey coach.

Okay.

So he won the gold Olympic, uh, in, uh, in, uh, in Beijing and China, I think 15 years ago. But, uh, yeah, they do also the recovery in ice baths because in China it was very hot that time. So then after the, uh, so, uh, uh, so that makes it also, uh, yeah, very, uh, to do that together. And there was a lot of resistance because it was a women's hockey, uh, hockey team. Of the Netherlands. And, uh, yeah, we are not going to sit in the ice bath because that time it was not so popular like it is now because of Wim Hof, also a Dutch, uh, guy, of course. Uh, yeah, but, uh, uh, yeah, a lot of, uh, international sports teams do that nowadays, uh, taking the ice bath to recover. But it's really a nice exercise, uh, to do that because it creates a lot of, uh, yeah, it's—

that's so cool. Like, you're making me think so many things like the, the, uh, where I'm from in Philadelphia and Atlantic City, they have like the Polar Bear Plunge on January 1st, New Year's Day, New Year's morning. Everybody runs into the ocean together. Um, and there has to be like differences in doing that together than doing that alone, you know. And we're talking about like, that's what we're talking about, like active recovery. Uh, a great question, Ryan, by the way. Thanks for starting this conversation. Like The active recovery individually versus active recovery, um, uh, together, uh, struggle alone versus struggle together, release alone versus release together. And now this whole conversation is about flow alone versus flow together. And, and just like there are, um, physiological and I, we already talked about some of the neural neuroscience or neurobiological connections that happen at the team flow level. Is probably the same with all of these other phases. You know, there's probably some sort of biological connection of doing these things together versus alone, you know? And, and so that's fascinating. In fact, one study just came out a couple months ago. It was like the first neuroscience study of doing a cold plunge. And they did show that there are, at the level of the brain, changes in mood and reward and motivation and all of these things at the level of the brain. It was just an individual study, but I would imagine you would, you would probably find some, like we were talking about like team creativity. You would probably find team, you know, markers.

There should be something because otherwise we won't do that together here in the Netherlands also with New Year's. Yeah. There's a New Year's dive. More than 10,000 people, uh, run into the sea every year. So, uh, yeah, it's a big, uh, big event. But, uh, yeah, we need that. So probably in something in our brain motivate, there's a subset that motivates us to go there together. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It should be. Yeah.

It should be for sure. I mean, that's, that's amazing. And we, we found those mechanisms. That's, so again, that's jumping the gun here as part of like future, the future of the field. But you just made me think of something else too. So there's this whole field called psychoneuroimmunology and it's, it's not like sort of about the brain gut axis, which we talk a lot about and there's a lot of research on that, but the brain immune system axis and a lot of this has to do with probably why flow is so, you know, healing, so neuroprotective, lowering inflammation, increasing resilience because it connects the cognition, the mind to the other systems in the body below the neck, right? Like the, like the immune system and endocrine system and, and so on. And I did see some research on social psychoneuroimmunology. I saw a couple papers about that. And like, I, I imagine that there are some even more healing, um, mechanisms at play when you're in team flow over and above individual flow. And there's all this research on interpersonal synchrony and empathy, which we could get into too. We already had a discussion on that, but do you, would you imagine that like that, that's the case?

Yeah, I think, uh, I absolutely, uh, believe that that is, uh, the case. Yeah. Hard to study, but, uh, You should do that. Yeah, go for that.

There's the call to action, Michael. We gotta get on it, man.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Like we're, we're, there's so many open research questions in, in flow and of course, but really in team flow. Do you have one more quick question on some of these, the differences between the prerequisites and the characteristics? So one of the prerequisites in your model is safety, psychological safety, right?

Yeah.

And then one of the things that show up in team flow, the characteristics is mutual trust. As you were talking about earlier. So, um, that's interesting. I find that very interesting. I would— I was wondering if you could just discuss a little bit about the differences and similarities between trust and psychological safety. And, and like, what does it mean that the psychological safety is a prerequisite, so like a trigger, team flow trigger, and, and that trust is, is one of these phenomenological things that just show up when you're in team flow?

Yeah, yeah, because I also, uh talked about that for a long time. Is it this comes safety first or comes if trust merge first in the team? So yes, if teams have some history together, there's trust so that that is already there. So that's good. But I think you need safety and I do think that's not only psychological safety but it's also physical safety. Social safety. Oh, so because if you are part of a team and it's really dangerous activity that you do, maybe you need a, a helm or some protection. So that's also because otherwise it creates fear and then you cannot be, you are not experiencing flow or team flow. So there are three kinds of safety and you can actually do something about safety. Also about psychological safety, you can do something about it. You can train or think about past experiences that you really felt trust and really performed well, then you feel more safe to act. And social, yeah, you can also agree on within a team and make some maybe rules or codes of conduct. So that's the way you talk, the way you discuss things, that everyone feels safe. So that's why I marked that as a prerequisite. So you, yeah, and trust, yeah, it's there or it is not there. So where you are part of a safe climate, when people show commitment, yeah, so there's more trust when they communicate. So you know where you were going.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. So then there's also trust. So if you want to intervene on team flow, then, uh, you need to intervene. Uh, if you want to intervene on trust, you need to intervene on open communication, safety, and commitment. Uh, I believe so. Uh, that's why, that's why trust is, uh, there. It is possible that trust is first there, but to intervene on it, uh, You work through the other ones that I just mentioned, safety and open communication.

That's interesting. Like, there's different kinds of safety, psychological safety, physical safety, and social safety. Yeah.

I'm wondering, can we define a little bit what we mean by safety in this context? Because we know, right? We know that how important risk is, right? And a shared sense of risk is to team flow.

Yeah. Yeah.

What's the balance of them? And how do we want to think about psychological safety when it comes within teams?

I define it as this, as this. A collaborative climate in which every team member feels physically, psychological, and socially safe to carry out personal tasks. Mm-hmm. And then in that climate, like underlying correct risks are no unnecessary or unacceptable risks, but risks. There is risk. There's always risk where you, uh, go for a challenge, but no, but no unnecessary or no unacceptable. So you can use a helmet and use that one. Mm-hmm. Also, mistakes are allowed. I think, like, Edmondson's work, the teams that make the most mistakes do better. Yeah, this is— and that support, that's also part of safety. I think that, that you support each other, that you also— people feel that support.

I'm just thinking about, like, if that translates over to trust too. So you say mutual trust.

Yeah.

And, and being trustworthy. Yeah. Right. So there's a certain level of trustworthiness. You're a trustworthy person. That's great. And then there's a, so that means that's like, you know, you say mutual trust. It's not just trust. It's mutual trust.

So it's also important there that, uh, that there's the belief that the team as a whole can successfully complete the joint task. There's also trust. So it's also the confidence.

Yeah. Wow.

Awesome.

That's great. There's a bunch of research on self-efficacy.

Yeah.

The belief in your capacity to accomplish a goal or, or, you know, perform a task, right? And then, and so it has to do with self-regulation and self-confidence. And, and I think there's this notion of collective self-efficacy or collective efficacy, I should say, not collective self-efficacy, but collective efficacy. And I, I, I know, and there is research that, that higher levels of self-efficacy predict higher levels of flow individually. Uh, and I'm wondering if the same is with collective efficacy. And so collective confidence is team has to have this sort of shared belief that they can accomplish the goal.

Yeah, that is, that is really helpful if that, if that is there. So, uh, yeah, and that's also part of my definition of mutual trust. So it's not the trust in each, uh, only the trust in each other, but, uh, seeing the team as a whole, as a performance unit, is able to do joint task. So that is collective efficacy as well.

Jeff, that's amazing. Jeff, you are, uh, another question, you are one of the, the, you know, one of the world's leading researchers in team flow. And there's been others in the past, uh, you know, Keith Sawyer talked about group flow and one of Csikszentmihalyi's students. Um, and, uh, and so you've built on that research a great deal empirically. Refining and redefining and operationalizing, 'cause he talks about ego blending and familiarity and some of the other group flow triggers out there, like yes and, saying, you know, being additive, not argumentative and so on, which they have an improvisation, like, you know, in improv and theater and there's all these examples of just saying yes and to try and build in the conversation rather than kill the conversation. And that leads to this collective idea flow.

Group flow.

Your work has really, in my opinion, taken that research, which was great. Keith Sawyer's research is great, but really taken it to the next level and operationalized it again and rigorously scientifically addressed a lot of these things because that makes them more translatable and more practical and more applicable. Because once you know something, that's the whole point, right? Once you know it exists and you can call it something and you can label it, then you could sort of translate into the real world.

Yeah.

And that leads me to this part of the question. What's the future of your research and what's the future of team, uh, flow research in general? I know we talked a little bit about the, the neuroscience and, um, and, and we, we talked a little bit about some of the subjective versus objective reporting. So the self-reports, the, the, the self-reporting of it, and then getting more objective with, you know, biology and so on. So maybe speak to like what are the emerging trends and developments that you're most excited about for the future of team flow research?

Yeah, I think I'm most excited about your work, uh, Michael, because, uh, I really find that interesting, uh, the biology or the neuroscience of, uh, of team flow. So, uh, that's really important. I think I also in a few years will, uh, put my focus on that, but, uh, I have to, to finish first some other, uh, studies. Um, so what I want to do is, uh, add some other skills, uh, uh, like emotional intelligence or also personality traits.

Oh yeah.

I also, uh, just collected a dataset with, uh, Teamflow, uh, question, the Teamflow Monitor and the Big Five, for instance. And later on, uh, also with open innovation, so organizations in a certain area or collaborating together? How do they deal with that? With IP, for instance, uh, how do they make new products together? So open, uh, open innovation, uh, collaborative, uh, innovation with, uh, with Teamflow. I think that's, uh, so when, when there's an organization part of a network, that's an interesting, and then AI. Yep. Uh, tools. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, there are a lot of tools now that, uh, you could use while having a conversation, especially when you do this via video call. So then you can apply all those tools. That's really useful, I think. And then also another part, paper that I'm writing is about the future of coaching.

Oh, wow. Cool.

And then it's about digital twins. So if I'm a facilitator, I cannot always be there with the team, but I can create an avatar of myself and guide team sessions while I'm not there because based on my big data set that I collected with all the teams that I did. So the avatar can do the conversation and guide them with some AI. And with, so yeah, that is something I'm also thinking about, writing about, I have some ideas about that also.

At the end of Stephen's, he wrote this book with Peter Diamandis a few years ago called The Future is Faster Than You Think. And at the end of that book, he talks about the hive mind, group flow being the, this phenomenologically the greatest feeling on earth and where we could solve the world's greatest problems and collaborate optimally. And so on. So, and that whole book is about the convergence of technologies. So what you just, what we were saying, you made me think about that, how he ends the book, how they end the book with that notion of that. Like that's what we're all really trying to achieve. And I agree with you completely. AI and technology can absolutely help us achieve that state in individual flow as well, but also like group flow.

But also remote teams.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah. So that's also the future of work. So, uh, yeah. And, uh, and we can make use of this. So I think, I think the time is already now, uh, but we have to, uh, combine all those different tools together and then, uh, we can actually do it.

Yeah. It's amazing.

Well, thank you both of you. This has just been such a fun conversation. Uh, Jeff, you, your work, as Michael said, in bringing clarity to team flow is just tremendous. I'd highly recommend to any of our listeners, Jeff, along with Oren Davis, co-authored Team Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Collaboration. It is your go-to resource for team flow, and it is a ridiculously accessible textbook. Please, folks, go out and get yourself a copy if you're interested in diving into this any deeper. But Jeff, where else can we follow your work and keep updated with what you're putting out in the world.

I, I will launch a, a new website now. My website is in Dutch, but it will be bilingual, so also in English. It's flowconcepts.com. And then on LinkedIn, uh, I am, so I have a profile there. I also post all my, uh, new, uh, papers there. So, uh, yeah, follow me on LinkedIn. I think it's most easy.

All right. Amazing. Yeah, we will absolutely add that in the show notes. And again, Jeff, thank you so much. Michael, thank you for joining us as a host today. Uh, it's just been a pleasure.