The Power of Strategic Storytelling for Social Change with Josh Gryniewicz

Can you speak a little bit to the power of storytelling and why this is a skill leaders and organizations who want to truly make an impact should be investing in and honing?

Storytelling helps us to remember things better rather than getting tactical instructions on how to shoot an arrow. Hearing a story about a great archer, it packs all the same information in a far more memorable way. And that's just the way we as a human species are wired. As an evolutionary purpose storytelling and creative play serve to the species is social cohesion. If we have a shared story that we're all bought in on, we're all going to vie for and fight for our piece of living that story. If a story can do that for the species, imagine what it can do for your brand. How is your organization living that story? How are you pushing that story out to the world?

What does it take to do the impossible?

What does it What does it take to level up your game like never before?

What does it take for individuals, organizations, for even institutions to achieve paradigm shifting?

Nothing is ever the same again.

Breakthroughs.

Our mission is to decode the neurobiology of flow and cognitive peak performance. Access the minds of maverick scientists, groundbreaking innovators, and world-leading experts to understand what it takes to achieve ultimate human performance so you can feel your best, perform your best, and accomplish your boldest goals. I'm your host, Ryan Doris, and together with bestselling author Stephen Kotler, I present to you Flow Research Collective Radio.

Josh, welcome to Flow Research Collective Radio. Thank you so much for your willingness to hang out with us today. Welcome.

Absolutely my pleasure, Tori. Thank you for having me. This is great.

This is gonna be awesome, Josh. I'm so stoked to have this conversation with you because in addition to the fact that you're the founder of an incredibly cool company, uh, Duck, you also started training with the Flow Research Collective back in 2021, which makes you one of our, you know, OGs. And you're an alumni of Zero to Dangerous, of Flow for Writers, for High Flow Leadership, now known as Climbing Mount Bold. So there is so much fertile ground for us to cover together. So let's Let's dig in.

I have drunk the Kool-Aid. Let's dive in.

It's tasty. It's tasty. What can we say? So we like to kick off our client spotlights in a similar way because we like to showcase people's massively transformative purposes to really illustrate the incredible ways our community is impacting the world. So I'd love to start off with what is your MTP?

I love that question. Thank you very much for asking. And my MTP is actually to shape and share stories for social impact. And so that speaks to both my career as a writer and then my career as a creative consultant running an agency. So yeah.

Amazing. So tell us a little bit about— for those of you, for those of our listeners who don't know you, how is that MTP related to what you do at Odd Duck? Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, so first of all, the MTP actually pre-existed Odd Duck, so that's an important note. But so Odd Duck is, we are a storytelling for social change communication consultancy focused primarily in the health area. We drive on that in 3 main ways. The first, which hopefully Tori will actually elaborate on a little bit throughout, but the first is strategic storytelling. So that's for organization. How do you get internally all your team on the same page with the same story and the same narrative playbook? And how do you push that story out disruptively to, to upset the prevailing narrative, the existing paradigm, and use storytelling to shift that? So that's the first thing that we do. The second thing is that we do a lot of stories ourselves. So we collect a lot of stories. We do a lot of— we do a lot of comic books, interactive comic books, interactive platforms, again, all around a social change component. And all around using narrative as a driver for that. And then the third is just, you know, doing one-on-one coaching, usually with executive directors or solopreneurs, scientists, and shaping and sharing their story. So I've worked with well over 100 scientists on kind of getting out of that research mode where you're always— and I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but you're always removed from talking about it— to getting more comfortable saying, this is why I'm passionate about this. This is why I started doing this. And then I've also worked with coaching at least half a dozen TED speakers and in that space. So, so those are the three ways that, that we sort of drive on that. And my position is actually founder and chief narrative strategist of Oddbox.

So incredibly cool. And we're definitely going to be double-clicking on the power of storytelling and so many of those different pieces. Yeah, I mean, Amazing stuff. So let's, let's, let's pull back for a second here. And, and since you are a storyteller, you know I had to do this. I wanna hear your Flow origin story. So, so what, what set you on the path to Flow and then ultimately to training with FRC?

So I, I have sort of two entry points into telling this story and I don't usually tell them in conjunction, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna start with, with one which was actually like 20 years ago. And the reason why I'm sharing it with this audience is because I think, Tori, and I've shared this with some folks in the community, I made a lot of the mistakes that a lot of like hard-charging flow junkies make. Right. And so FRC actually helped me correct those. And so the first part of the story begins some Like I said, 20 years ago, I was an undergrad in psych. Completely different life, completely different existence. I had— I was trying to finish my degree really fast because I had a job waiting for me and I had already signed a contract. And so that job wasn't going to be waiting if I, if I didn't finish my degree in a certain amount of time. So I was under a lot of pressure and a friend of mine, and I think they were trying to subtly tell me something with this. But a friend of mine said, hey, look, you can earn 3 credits in one weekend, Friday to Sunday, just by taking the stress reduction and relaxation workshop.

It's a subtle nudge.

Yeah, it's subtle. Like, here you go, here you go. And so I was like, oh, okay, 3 credits in one weekend, relaxation and stress reduction, right over my head. I was like, oh, awesome, 3. I can't get that anywhere else. I'm in. Okay. So I sign up for this workshop. It is taught by Somebody else whose personality is sort of wired the way I feel like a lot of the FRC folks are wired. So he had Dr. JP Duffey, and he had a PhD in theology, a PhD or a PsyDoc in psychology, and then a PhD in existential philosophy. So, you know, really underachiever there. He was in his 70s at the time. right? And he was running circles around us 20-somethings doing yoga, doing tai chi, introducing us to all these things. So this weekend was game-changing in a lot of ways. I learned formal meditation practice. I was introduced to qigong for the first time, which is a practice that I continue with today. I was— and I was introduced to flow and to the concept of flow because Dr. Dave had actually trained under Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and had been a student of his in the psych program. So I learned about all of this, but I really learned about it in a sort of academic way, right? So even though I was ironically in a relaxation and recovery workshop, I didn't take some of those lessons to heart.

Sure.

And so I had a tendency over the next 2 decades professionally to really go hard at subjects that I was interested in, that I was invested in, and that I was passionate about. And then work myself, work myself, work myself to burnout and then fall into a depression for a few months, come out of the depression and start the whole process all over again. And I did that for probably about a decade. Right. And then, you know, I don't know if we have to go too deep into it, but I was misdiagnosed as having bipolar 3 times during this process because some of the symptoms seemed so reminiscent of that disorder. Right. And so finally I was like, okay, I need some sort of neuropsychiatric like evidence one way or the other, whether I'm bipolar or there's something else going on. Through that, I learned that I was attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Didn't have a full-blown mood disorder, but I was behaving using some of the hyperfocus with ADD in a way that was reminiscent or emblematic of bipolar. The missing piece, and so this is where FRC comes in. Coincidentally, at the time that I was getting this diagnostic and learning about this, at the time I was working for a neuropsych facility and I was helping both train and coach the neurologist, the psychology, psychiatry staff in sharing their story as well as writing the newsletter and trying to find a compelling way. I was asking around for a solid science writer who just really, you know, made stuff sound exciting, right? And so I was asking, a friend said, "Oh, you know what? You'll really like this dude, Steven Kotler. He's sort of had a punk Malcolm Gladwell." And I was like, "All right, all right, I'm in." So what I like to say, Tory, is that I came for the style and I stayed for the content because I picked up a copy of Rise of Superman, loved it. Was like, how do I get more? And I actually signed up. This is even— this shows how much of an OG I am. I signed up for a course. I believe it was a Habit of Ferocity through Mindvalley, which was teaching, which was a precursor to everything that FRC is doing. And one of the things— and this is the part, this is a through line that connects all the stuff that I learned with Dr. Dave, with all the stuff that I've learned from, you know, you and the FRC team and everything. Is that recovery piece, right, is absolutely essential to that hard charging piece, right? So like, completely, it wasn't like that. Just learning that cycle, just that alone changed my life. And that's not an exaggeration, right? Changed my life forever.

I, uh, I love that. I love that story. And look, I think that it's just incredibly relatable too. I mean, as one of the coaches at FRC, I hear some version of that so regularly because hard-charging people are taught to rest and recover. It's just not— it's— I don't think it's a natural part of our DNA. And so truly, it is a paradigm shift to think of recovery as part of the work. Recovery is not doing nothing. Yeah, right. Yeah. So it sounds like the oscillation concept was a key takeaway for you, for sure. And, uh, something else I want to kind of highlight too, because I think a ton of people come to FRC with this similar kind of puzzle piece too, which is the ADHD piece. And I get the question all the time of, you know, is this going to, you know, limit my ability to access flow? And really, it could end up being a superpower because of the hyperfixation. But to your point, you need guardrails or it's a surefire ticket to burnout. So can you talk a little bit about, you know, we talked about oscillation and using recovery, but any other kind of guardrails that you've put in place to where you can still get into flow but you're not staying in it for the amount of time where then you're just totally wiped and drained of resources?

Yeah, so there's, there's a couple there. I, I think, you know, just heading to the calendar, keeping on your calendar and organizing things that way. I don't do as much of that. Like, I keep to kind of doing blocks of deep work and then trying to keep my meetings and my, you know, one-on-one conversations and stuff to later in the afternoon after I've gotten some writing out of the way or something like that. So those are things that practices that don't come naturally to somebody without executive functions, right? Like, sure, who cognitively lacks those executive functions. But, you know, again, these are tools that I'm like, oh, I, I could do this. So that, that's the first thing. And then the second thing, and this was like manna from heaven, is, uh, no non-time, um, just doing a practice of non-time. That has absolutely been— because I think there's a tendency, and this is part of the, you know, Tara Brach, who is kind of meditation— she's like a psychoanalyst and a meditation instructor. She talks about how when she first got into doing yoga and stuff, she was like, I'm going to outmeditate all of you. And again, that's a very FRC tendency, right? Like, I feel like a lot of people can relate to that. Like, we look at it and we're like, I'm going to be so down in my downtime. There's never been anybody this down, right? And so like, there's a tendency to do that. And I think non-time is, again, it's sort of like, oh, you can just take little sips. Like, you don't have to drink the whole glass. You can make it through your day. And if you give yourself a little padding before and after each meeting, that might be enough. That might be enough to carry you through like a very packed day, right? And so, those were things. I think a lot of what FRC has done has given me some of that permission to be like, hey, you know what, it's cool if you slow down. It's gonna be all right. The work's still going to be there, right? And a lot—

truly. Yeah, I, I love that. And I also had to learn the very hard lesson of like, you can't win at yoga. That was something that I had to learn. That's, that's not real. It's not how you do it. Um, so, and I really, I want to stay here for just a moment longer because I hear so regularly, you know, when we're starting to develop calendar worshiping practices, to really optimize that calendar for flow. I hear very regularly from people, I'm a creative and this is not how I work, right? Like, this is too structured. So I love that I'm talking to you, who you are an incredible creative. You— that is exactly your life, right? And I'm hearing that non-time is this really powerful thing to schedule. So for those— for people that don't know what that is, can you describe non-time a little bit?

Yeah, yeah. So non-time is just literally blocking out time, blocking out pockets of time where you do as instructed nothing, right? Or something that is completely off topic from any of your work activities, right? And it feels, especially when you start, it feels a little frightening, feels like a little like, oh my God, this is such a waste of time. But the benefits after doing that like consecutively are astronomical. And just in, headspace alone, right? So that was a big nod to that. And I'm so glad you brought up the creative thing, right? Because that is absolutely, that is one of those tendencies that internally, like that my inner artist and my inner ADD artist really tries to like resist and fight against is like, oh, like, oh my God, we're planning our week before the week's even happened? Who does that? It's like, well.

Well, thank you.

But again, and it feels like somehow you're depriving yourself of the spontaneity. So without being too like mystical about it, there's a sense, a prevailing sense that you're somehow undermining the opportunity for like magic to happen, right? By having a calendar of events, right? And what I would say is the opposite is actually true. Like, you know, to be completely blunt about it, when you have your shit locked down, magic does happen because it, it lets you— frees you up to see all of these patterns that you wouldn't see otherwise. Because you're, you're usually— if you're not doing the calendar worship piece, if you're not minding yourself, you're usually like, okay, what do I have to do today and how do I have to do that and what do I have to get prepared for this presentation or done? And then it's taking up so much bandwidth that, you know, you're not getting this opportunity of like, oh my God, I just met, you know, the author of this book and they have this up, you know, and you just see things in a way that's a lot clearer and the connections are a lot clearer than if you didn't, if you don't, right?

No, completely. And I think that, yeah, to your point, if you haven't locked in, you know, the, the things that you need to get done, if that you don't have clarity there, then you end up spending precious cognitive bandwidth on low-value decision-making instead of saving it for the magic, right?

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And the thing— and that's the other like sneaky bit about it, right, is that you don't notice that you didn't have it until you do, right? Right.

So completely. And that's, you know, I, I urge people run for like the straitjacket effect of like, I don't want a calendar, this is too restricting. It's run the experiment and then just see how you feel. And to your point, I think that I'm really glad that you brought up non-time because to me that's really an opportunity to protect a whole area of time for you to get divergent, for you to get creative. And, and, you know, sometimes, you know, I urge clients use that non-time just to think about one or two really important questions. Let yourself just kind of think it through, spend some time with it without any distraction. It's just such an impactful way to build that cognitive surplus.

And what I would add to that too, and you can tell me if I'm— but like what I would add to that is also like don't be married to the answers, right? So set yourself up with the question. I think that's a great way to like tee everything up. It's really, you know, it helps you kind of go deep. But like sometimes the answers that I've gotten in now making this a regular practice have been about problems that I didn't even know I needed to ask about. Yeah, right.

Yeah.

And that's what I mean by part of that being like the magic, right? Like, I will be working with a client and we're trying to, you know, put together a production of something. I'm like, oh, I need this guy who's an illustrator. I need this person who does you know, and I'm trying to do this and then like all of a sudden something else that I'm not even focused on for another client or another project or something that I'm working on personally will just spontaneously emerge because I'm open to it. Right?

Right.

You know?

Right.

So, yeah.

No, I think that you bring up an important point of non-time is not supposed to be dedicated to a certain outcome or result. It's just thinking time. And so I think it really challenges you to fight that urge of, Okay, I have a question and now I'm rushing to the solution space. It, it really encourages you to stay in the problem space, get divergent, really explore. And like you said, it opens you, right, to so many different potential possibilities.

That's, that's literally that. Like, I, that was one of those things that when I started doing it, I did it wrong. I was doing it like, I'm like, okay, like, you know, and then like you would finish like You know, and you'd be like, my non-time didn't work. I need a refund because my non-time didn't work. You know, I don't have the solution. But it's like that short circuits the whole process. There is like an element of, of just openness and just being like trusting the process, right? Like I'm gonna do this thing and, you know, at a certain point, like even if I don't have the exact answer that I'm looking for, the exact answer that I need, I'm going to have, you know, it's like I'm going to have freed up the space to actually find it, right?

Truly. And so you are, I think, illustrating one of my favorite things about training with FRC, honestly, is that through the process, you actually redefine what you see as productive. Recovery and rest, it's actually very productive. It's incredibly productive. Spending time just getting divergent and allowing yourself to explore potential and different possibilities, potential, uh, really explore the problem space, that is productive, right? So I, I think, and there's such a huge ROI on making that change, right? Expanding what we think is being productive, right? So with that being said, you know, I, I've heard, I've heard some different things from you, so I'll, I'll let you take the wheel here, but I want to hear a little bit about, from making all these changes, what has been kind of your ROI from training with FRC? And also just how does Flow show up for you? And those may be two separate questions.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So the, the first thing that I'll answer, and I, I mean, I don't think it's been like, like when I talk about having that recovery piece, seeing that cycle and how that cycle has contributed or benefited my life. Like literally that's been life-changing at, at like life-changing to begin with, but like literally saved my life in a lot of ways. Okay. Like that was transformative. So that alone, like, whew, that alone was worth the price of admission. But then to add to that, I would say You know, just the relationships with the community, the people that I've connected to or connected with in the community, just on a personal basis. I think FRC, there's something about the folks here who are some of the most fascinating people in the world, really. I mean, honestly, in the world. Just the community is just amazing and constantly inspiring. But then from an economic perspective as well, I've had a lot of clients through FRC and through the community or through referrals that came through it. So I've actually, what I'll say, Tory, is, and I've done the work on it. So if you look at just the techniques themselves, But then the techniques in combination with, you know, the actual contracts that I've gotten from some of these relationships, I've more than 3 times paid for what I've invested. Wow. Right? Yeah. So that's nuts. That's, and like, I think that bears repeating. I'll just flat out say, I mean, like, Beyond just the techniques, if you do the math, if you look at it, um, I made 3 times what I actually put in. So that is— I don't know anything else that has— at least I don't know anything else in the training world that has that kind of ROI, right?

Me neither. Me neither. Let me know if you find out.

I'm still looking, but no.

No, that's, that's incredible. And I also wanna just emphasize, you know, how you started things off, that it's, it's not just about financial return, it's not just about productivity, it's about learning how to work and lead, right? Means you have, you know, you have a whole team in a way that's healthy and sustainable.

Like 100%.

That's gigantic. That's gigantic. So with that in mind, let's get a little bit, 'cause I always get this question from clients who are starting off in Zero to Dangerous. How— what does accurate deployment of flow look like for you? How do you kind of look at your day and decide this is where I want to get into flow, this is what's going to be highest impact? How do you do that?

Yeah, so a lot of, you know, and it's interesting to be having this conversation now, Tori, because some of this is really shifting for me as my team grows, as the organization sort of expands, which is something we can talk about actually, because it's something that's covered in some of that, some of the coursework. But What I'll say specifically is for, you know, I really do kind of put an emphasis, put a premium on those activities like writing, like that, that, or just story craft, world building, sometimes world building on behalf of a client. That is such deep work and takes so much focus and attention and energy that I literally, I, I now have to set aside and now actively set aside time to do that, to focus on that, have my like blocks of writing time or my blocks of, you know, if it's on behalf of a client to actually work on, you know, their kind of narrative framework and invest myself in that. Whereas I think the way I was, you know, trained professionally, with sort of, you just, you know, you fit the, you have your deadline coming and you fit those in the little pockets in between interviews and meetings and, and whatever, and you just sort of cobble this together. And so the thing that happens, right, is, you know, you're, you're robbing yourself of the opportunity to truly go into, into flow with the work if you're like, okay, I have, I only have, you know, whatever, an hour to work on this until my next phone call, and then like, you know, and then after that phone call I have, I have to run this meeting but then I can get back to the project and hopefully I'll get in the flow when I get back to it. But if I don't, then, you know, then after the call after that, I will definitely write. And so by, by setting aside the time to like actually immerse yourself in the work, it, it, it allows you to kind of tap in and, and channel kind of that flow energy and really do that. And then, you know, again, being the ADD with the hyperfocus and everything and the And the blinders, like sometimes I have to set alarm. I mean, I have a lot of alarms going here. Yeah. So it's the only thing that's gonna pull me out, right?

So I think that, yeah, and I'm glad that you went there because I was just gonna ask you kind of, let's get for a moment just really tactical because I, again, I think that so many people struggle with this where you are a leader, you have a team, you're running a business, but you also really do need time for flow because you have creative work to execute on. So I'm hearing alarms are helpful. So really sticking to time blocking and pulling yourself out of flow. Also maybe not doing other things until that alarm goes off. Any other kind of tactics to share? Because this comes up all the time.

Yeah, well, and there's a concept that's sort of in the, in the Climbing Mount Bold, uh, that's talked about sort of the moving from musician to conductor, right? Right. So, you know, so as a writer, I often say it's sort of like I fell backward into being a business owner, right? Because it was like I was writing and I was getting so much work as a writer. I was like, oh, I need more of this stuff and I need to figure out this budget thing and I need to do, you know, like, how do we do, you know, so like, and then the next thing you know, I'm like running an agency, right? So that's, and that is a very common story for, I think it's a very common story just for entrepreneurs in general, right? Um, and but what happens is you sort of shift into like, now I'm a conductor, you know, and so I'm, I'm, you know, leading this team. I have, you know, copywriters and artists and, and so on who are working with me or for me or, or collaborating. And so I have to, you know, I have to spend a lot of time and energy on, on, on them. And so Part of that, part of that is a shift in how you look at your reward system, right? And this, this is, this is actually like, I have a funny story about this, but this was like a big shift for me when I was going through the coursework. If I could, if I could share this.

Yeah, please.

So I have, we're working on this big project with this client. We're creating a toolkit and then like a guy, we have like, so I bring in my graphic designer, I have two junior writers, I have a copy editor. So we have like a full team and we're, you know, we're giving this presentation about what this will accomplish and why we want to do this narrative framework in this way. And so as we're going around, this is actually a little embarrassing to admit, but I think it illustrates the point. So I'm willing to go there. So, so I have, I have my writer, you know, and she's phenomenal. She's very talented and she's a journalist, you know, was trained in journalism and switched and does like a lot of the creative writing too. And she's very adept at that. So she's giving, you know, that my, my graphic designer gives her piece about what everything's going to look like and the aesthetic and the brand and everything. Very exciting. And then we move on and then like my, my, you know, and I'm like, yeah, go, go. Yes, you did it. Okay. And then like, you know, we get to that and then like my junior writer is talking and she's like, you know, okay. And then like, I really wanna shape the story this way. And he gives the thing to her and like, this is, but I'm like getting jealous and I'm like, why am I getting jealous?

Yeah.

You know, I'm getting the kudos, it's my company. Like why, you know, but I'm getting jealous that the client is giving, you know, my writer props, you know? And like, I'm like, oh, I want those kudos. I want those flowers, you know? Oh, like, and so it was like, It was just really like, you know, and, you know, obviously this didn't, you know, I'm sharing, I'm externalizing a lot of internal drama. I'm sure nobody's aware of this, right? My team's gonna listen to this now and be like, oh, is that what was going on? But anyway.

So like, that's what that tantrum was about.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, but like that was the thing. And then I, you know, like, so I actually had a conversation with, David, who's an FRC coach, who was my FRC coach for— and I was telling, you know, telling, sharing this with him and he's like, well, this is, you know, textbook sort of musician to conductor, right? Like—

Sure.

And the thing that he illustrated for me is like, you know, so much of both my ego and the reward system of my ego is tied up with writer that I was kind of getting stuck there. And not recognizing that like the big picture project and the outcomes there, which by the way were incredibly successful. So, so spoiler alert, but, but, but like by placing kind of the motivation and my attention there and focusing there, like that's where like the future rewards need to come from, right? And so that was, that was a very dramatic shift in mindset. And it has— it's something that I've now seen play out in lots of different situations, lots of different, like, professional contexts. And it's definitely a transition that's still in process. But it was, it was, it was a very eye-opening event.

Hey, it's Joshua with the production team. Thanks for listening to Flow Research Collective Radio. Before we dive back into our conversation, There's something to consider. It may be that today we are under-challenged. We're drowning in comfort. Now, in his book Antifragile, statistician Nassim Taleb pointed out something that's of key importance. Quote, undercompensation from the absence of challenge degrades the best of the best. The best horses lose when they compete with slower ones and win against better rivals. Now, put another way, who we could be, or our highest potential, is squandered by safety coddled by comfort. If you want to train with us at the Flow Research Collective, it will require boldness. But what's life without a little adventure, right? To learn more about how you can get more flow in your life and achieve your professional and personal goals in less time and with more ease, go to getmoreflow.com. If you're a good fit, we'd love to train with you. All the best.

Um, I don't know if I answered your question exactly, but I think we're Well, I think that it's deeply relevant, and we're—

yes, we're definitely in the neighborhood. And I think that you're bringing up a huge piece. I mean, because my question was, how do you really preserve deep work time to execute while you're also running a business and leading people? And I think what you're telling me, what I'm hearing, is that you have to get specific about what is yours and what is not yours in your business, right? You have to, you have to move from musician to conductor. Might mean that— it might mean that you play the instrument sometimes, right? And that's your deep work time. But if you lack clarity on delegation and really supporting your team and being a conductor of that team, then you end up with no flow at all, right?

That's right, that's right. And some of that delegation is actually trusting the people that you've hired to do the job to do the job, right? Because again, there's a tendency for those of us who are wired in a certain way to be like, okay, well, you know, I know how this is supposed to play out, so let me just take over for a little bit and I'll show you, right? And so again, that's depriving your team of the opportunity to learn. It's depriving yourself of the opportunity to get in flow. And it's also depriving yourself of, you know, like, letting somebody do the job you hired them to do, right? Like, um, so yeah, so being able to kind of take that step back and say, okay, like, A, I'm gonna, I'm gonna delegate, I'm gonna trust, you know, in my judgment of hiring these people. I also, I'm very fortunate that I have a gatekeeper, um, who kind of helps manage my schedule, and if people want to get on my schedule, like, she's the first line of defense. Figuring out. So it's like, you know, like I have one acolyte for my candle or calendar worship.

But sometimes you need that. Sometimes an accountability device is hiring a person to do that for you, right? So then you're not making that decision. No, I think that— I think that's huge. I think you're really just highlighting the power of spending time figuring out how you're going to transition from being the musician to conductor because You're absolutely right. If you're in this position, it's probably because you're a really good musician, right? And you probably could do it better than other people, but that also is gonna create an, an insane bottleneck and stop you from scaling your business in any meaningful way.

And it has repeatedly. Like, I, there's a lot of stuff that I had had to learn the hard way because that was exactly it. And it was like, it was one of those moments of the scales falling from my eyes when I was like, oh, like I'm the common denominator in all of these.

I'm the problem. It's me. Yeah, exactly. And I, but I love, I love your work on okay, but why? Because I think that that is not a space that a lot of leaders spend enough time in is why am I not delegating this? Double-click it. And I think a lot of time part of the reason is it's part of my identity and I feel really validated and I understand who I am. In this organization because I do this thing really well. Uh, so there is a transition period that can be really uncomfortable as you start to reshape that.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's exactly it. And it was, it was, there was like a real kind of exploratory process because I feel like if, if I had just left that to my, to its own devices, right, the default would always be to go back to the musician.

I'll just do it.

Yeah, I'll just do it. Or I know, I know how to figure this out. So, you know, I've got it covered, right?

Yeah. The struggle is real. I loved— I was working with another client in climbing Mount Bold recently, and he came, he came to the table after he was running this experiment of, you know, empowering his team and not jumping in to take over when things started to go wrong. And he said, I'm learning that I need to let the fires burn a little longer, right? Like, you can't rush in to— me too— you can't rush in to put the fires out. You have to let the ears burned because that's what's going to give your team that ownership, right? And it's a group flow trigger for some accountability and ownership and autonomy to actually solve it themselves. And that builds trust.

That's 100%. And I would say that there, there is like a flip side. So like I shared with you the slightly embarrassing and awkward, you know, revealing, uh, you know, like meeting that I've had. But I've, I've had like flip side meetings since then, you know, where same team or similar team and we're doing, you know, similar things. But, you know, but the difference is when I'm sort of okay, like I'm comfortable in my conductor seat, right? Like there is like a group flow energy to it. There is like sort of a connectiveness of like, oh, this is where we're— oh, okay. And like, You know, like, you know, my— this, this, this person's like anticipating where I'm going with this and like just stepping in, you know? And so you kind of feel that energy and it's, it's, it's really exciting. It's a, it's a big shift.

Truly. And I think, you know, if we look at it in context of the flow cycle, right, we're talking initially about there's struggle here in this transition, but ultimately flow is around the corner if you stay the course and architect this right.

Yeah. Now that's it. Yeah.

So kind of in line with now taking more of this conductor role and, and being a leader, being a founder of an organization, I wanna know a little bit of, 'cause we talk a lot about separating strategy from execution. So how in this process of training and evolving to be this conductor has goal setting, kind of your approach to strategy changed?

Yeah. So, The first thing that I'll say is my timeline has shifted dramatically, right? So in writer mode, you're really only thinking like I was really only thinking like one assignment to the next or one, one project to the next. So a lot of times you're just week to week, you're thinking about, you know, how are you going to, you know, like, how am I going to help solve this client's problems? But a lot of times you're also thinking of like, How am I just going to solve these problems on the page, right? And, and, and so everything has like a very, a very kind of narrow window. And one of the things that sort of shifted through this engagement is that, you know, the time horizons got a lot longer and I've been able to, and, you know, I think, but I've been able to do things like, you know, like, oh, this is a 2025 project. Like, I I see where I'm going with this. Whereas before, my, like, the impetus would be, I'm gonna do, I have 5 awesome opportunities in front of me. I'm gonna try to do all 5 at the same time. And sure, they'll all crash and burn. But, you know, from the ashes, I'll have something slightly cool.

It's gonna be so exciting though.

Yes, it's gonna be so exciting. It's gonna be so amazing. So, you know, and the descent as I'm crashing and burning is gonna be glorious. Stop, right?

Like, so let's try it.

Yeah, let's give it a go, right? And so like, again, going back to like kind of giving yourself permission for things, it's like, okay, well, if this is a good idea now, this could— and sometimes that there's, there's an inevitable like, oh, like, you know, there's, there's a reason why you have to pursue this now because now is the opportunity. I get that. But there's also a lot of things where you're creating a false urgency just to give yourself an excuse to kind of jump into, into, you know, the driver's seat, right? Like, oh no, I have to pursue that because now you don't, right? I—

well, I just want to pause you there because I think I hear this all the time from creative people, people who are entrepreneurial. It's they have a million really exciting ideas or another exciting opportunity comes their way and they say yes. And to your point, it's almost never a successful plan, right? Because they're spread way too thin. Their resources are spread out. Way too dispersed, uh, and the recognition that people who are entrepreneurial tend to over-explore, right? They don't land the plane because the, the dopamine, the serotonin comes with the new ideas, and they're sexy, and landing the plane is inherently less sexy, right? And so it's really hard to stay in that implementation mode to actually land the idea fully. So I love, I love that you're connecting this to, okay, and now I strategize differently. So go on, please.

Yeah. So that's it. And I just to kind of because that you teed up a thing that like, you know, I think is worth exploring is like I am, I love planning. Like even, even as an ADDer, I love planning. You know, it's like, you know, I used to say like, oh yeah, the planning is great, the execution not so hot, but the planning is great. You know, because like you said, there's, there is, there is all sorts of chemical hits happening in your brain when you're planning it. And, you know, the best part about it is you don't have to take the risk and you don't have to do the thing. You can just do the planning and there's, there's plenty of reward there, right? And then when you actually do the thing and you run into all the challenges, right, um, you're like, oh man, this is, this is not nearly as fun as the, the pre-part, right?

Now we're in the struggle, not fun.

Exactly. But like Part of this whole journey, the whole journey kind of going over the last like 10 years, one of the things that I had sort of said to myself of like I would know when I arrived was when I started being one of those people who woke up in the morning, rolled up their sleeves, it was like, what kind of problems are we going to tackle today? Right? Like, because I've always seen those people and I've been like, like, That's amazing that they can do that. I'm not that person, right? And I think one of the things that I've had to learn and one of the things that FRC has been instrumental in helping teach me has been like, has been that tendency, has been that being able to like not be reserved about the problem-solving aspect of it because that's also often, not awesome, it's also awesome, But it's often the thing that I feel like creates the block to, to the execution part, right? You're like, it's just so much safer to stay in planning mode, right? But then when you get to the other side of it and your plan is executed and maybe it doesn't come out exactly the way you laid— all the steps are exactly the way you laid them out, but you land in a place where you have this incredible output, you're like, oh my God, I'm— I built a thing! This is the thing I built! And, and it, you know, like, that reward is so much better than, than anything that the planning stage can even prepare you for, right?

Yeah, I, I love that. And I, I— it feels like you're speaking to the fact that the struggle is far less daunting because you have these different tools. And also, I think just a different perspective that struggle is inherent to the flow cycle. It's not something like, oh no, I'm on the wrong track. Actually, you're on the right track.

That's exactly it. That's exactly it. And, and I feel like oftentimes you would, like you, but you know, I would get into this thing of like, you know, feeling like, oh, if, if I'm experiencing this resistance, if I'm experiencing going to the, the writer thing, if I'm experiencing that anxiety of the blank page, and I'm like, oh, I don't know what to do with this cursor, let alone, you know, the words that I'm supposed to, you know, like that it's supposed to queue up. Like, you know, then, then I've exactly like you said, I've done something wrong. Like I've, I, you know, and in reality it's like, well, that, that's just sort of the tick, tick, tick, tick, tick when you're on the roller coaster, right? That's gonna get you to the top where you're like, whee!

I love that visual because I, I actually ask people that on a regular basis. So picture yourself sitting in front of that blank page, ready to do that hard thing that you've been putting off for the last week, and you're looking at that blinking cursor. What do you do in that moment? And most people, when they come into the program, it's, I go make myself a fourth cup of coffee for the day, I pick up my phone, I go check my email.

I like— yeah, yeah.

And it's like, oh, you're resetting the flow cycle. Stay the course, right? So I love the— I love the visual of the roller coaster. Like, you're just— no, you're just on your way up. Stay, stay there.

Yes.

Fantastic. That's fantastic.

That's absolutely— and that's, you know, going back to the block of time and the alarm, right, that we were talking about earlier. And I think, like, that's one of— that's another aspect. So the alarm is helpful in pulling myself out because I'm like, oh, okay, the alarm went off. I'd have to shut this down and get ready to do, to run my meeting or to talk to my team or whatever. So that's one thing. But the other purpose is the tick, tick, tick part is I'll be like, oh, I gotta make myself a cup of tea or I gotta make myself a cup of coffee or I gotta check my email or I gotta, I wonder if this fire is, how this fire is going or whatever. And then I'll be like, nope, I have to sit right here and do this thing until this alarm goes off.

Yes.

Right?

Perfect.

And so that, that just changes the dynamic.

Right? So I hope, I hope people that are listening to this are like, I immediately need to start doing this because I think that it is just, I think it's just a fantastic strategy because you're taking all of the decision making out of this situation.

Completely.

Keep doing the thing until you hear the alarm. Should I do? No, the answer's no. Stay.

Yeah, right, right. Like, and, and like those, those distractions, even though, like, even the ones that are just in your head, so sneaky and so persistent, and you're like, oh yeah, no, that's, that's a pretty compelling reason for why I have to check my email right now.

No, simple rule. Yeah, you're wrong, you're wrong, wrong, you're wrong. That's fantastic. I love it. Okay, so I wanna, I, I wanna make sure we get to our storytelling piece because yeah, this is your, this is your genius and I wanna share it with all of our listeners. So I, I have, um, I, I wrote down the Odd Duck mission statement because I think it's really powerful. Um, so I wanna share it first. So, um, the Odd Duck mission is that Odd Duck discovers, shapes, and shares transformative stories for impact-driven organizations. Working to improve a world in urgent need of change. So like I said, you're an expert storyteller, and storytelling is actually a skill that we talk about quite a lot at FRC as well. So can you speak a little bit to just the power of storytelling and why this is a skill leaders and organizations who want to truly make an impact should be investing in and honing?

Yeah. Okay. So I can answer both for individual storytellers as well as for organizations, because I think there are things that storytelling as a tool can do to benefit both. So the first, just kind of talking about organizations, you know, Brian Boyd, who is— he did one of the most comprehensive evolutionary analyses of literature and storytelling, right? He goes all the way back, and, and the question he's asking throughout this, like, you know, large tome of an anthropological book is like, why, when, you know, you know, our, our people are starving and we're, you know, primed to be eaten by a saber-toothed— or about to be eaten by a saber-toothed tiger, and we have to look for shelter, we have to look for food, and we have Did our ancestors be like, you know what would be great? I'm just going to like, you know, I'm just going to, you know, dick around and play or paint on this cave wall or sit here and tell this story. Like, that seems so counterintuitive. So what is going on there, right? Like, what is going on in that space? And the thing that he— so he explores all of these reasons and there are a myriad of reasons storytelling helps us to remember things better. So rather than getting tactical instructions on like how to throw a spear or how to shoot an arrow, like hearing a story about a great archer, you know, it packs all the same information in a far more memorable way. And that's just the way we as a, as a human species are wired. You know, it's— but, but number one reason that he finds as far as an evolutionary purpose that storytelling and play, creative play, serve to the species is social cohesion. That's it. That's what's up right there, that social cohesion piece, right? Because if we have a shared story that we're all bought in on, we're all going to vie for and fight for our piece of living that story. Right. And so I always say, like, to my clients, like, if, if, if a story can do that for the species, imagine what it can do for your brand, right? It's massive, right? So that's, that's the piece for the organization. And a large part of that is both getting your entire team on the same page, sharing the same story, living from the same story. So how, how is your organization living that story? The other part of that is how are you, how are you pushing that story out to the world? And so that's that disruptive story piece that I was talking about earlier. So if you have, you know, our, all of our belief systems for the most part as a whole are made up of narratives, and narratives are shaped by every, every piece of media that we're sort of exposed to in one way or another. And some of those media or some of those narratives can be, can be, you know, on point and accurate. Some of those narratives can be completely misinformed and misguided and not serving us as, as a species or a culture or society or as an organization. And so what I often invite my clients and challenge my clients to do is figure out, well, what are the entry points? How can your story disrupt the, that broader narrative? Right? And a lot of that is just exploring what is that narrative framework, how are we telling our story to disrupt that, right? Um, so that's, that's from an organizational social change perspective.

Incredibly powerful. And as you're talking there, it kind of, it queued up for me, um, research from JJ Van Hout, who does a ton of research on team flow. And, you know, we talked about individual flow Individual flow is amazing. Group or team flow, even better. And one of the most important predictors of a group being able to get into team flow is creating something called collective ambition. And for that, we have to have that social cohesion. We have to have, um, we have to meet at what is our mission as a special team. And I think to your point, storytelling is the fastest, most effective way to create that sense of collective ambition. So insanely powerful, high-impact tool.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. And so the other, the other piece of that is for as, as an individual, as individual change agents, as, as ambassadors or champions of causes or just being an individual who wants to share their story in the world. One of the things that, you know, I've found is, is it's not, you know, there's, there's a tendency to sort of have three main, three main sort of components in, in the typical story that individuals tell. And those components are usually sort of like my personal piece, then what the, what the issue is, slash what the research says, and then this call to action. And the mistake that I find most people make is they tell it in that way. So it's sort of, it's sort of the outline that you did on the school paper in your persuasive essay in like, you know, 8th grade where you're like, okay, I really gotta teach, you know, my classmates to buy these shoes. So I'm gonna persuade them, whatever. Right? And so like we, we have a tendency to think of like in, in those blocks. And so here I'm gonna share my personal story and then I'm gonna share this And what we found to be far more effective is what I refer to as the braided effect or the braided, braided approach. Right. And that is literally you're taking these inflection points from your life, you're combining them with the research or that issue or the cause that you're trying to advance. And then you have a call to action for how the audience can meet you in that story and carry it further. And then you're weaving those things together. And so to oversimplify the point, that those, those are the things that are more effective because what you're doing for your audience is you're inviting them along with you on a journey. And so you're bringing those sort of up and you're showing what's possible and then you're bringing them back to the reality. You're bringing them up and showing them what's possible and bringing back the reality and you're weaving all of those things together as you go. Yeah. So, so that's from, from an individual position, individual standpoint, that's what we found is the most, most effective technique of storytelling.

And I think that that's an— I think that's a super helpful kind of framework for as people are listening to that and thinking about how can I, how can I integrate storytelling into what I do or how I lead, right? That's, that's, I think, a very powerful— it's a more powerful framework than the 8th grade shoe-selling essay.

Forgotten, a lot of pain. You know, I think the two mistakes that I find often— so like one of the, the more comprehensive things that we do in an organization is to help an organization not just to have its own narrative framework, but to create a culture of storytelling. What does a culture of storytelling look like? Well, the success of a culture of storytelling is when you have people who aren't even associated with your brand, or just tangentially associated with your brand, you know, telling stories about, oh, this is the XYZ way of doing this. So I worked with an architecture firm, and one of the stories that came up when we were doing the story jam, which is an activity that like our team will do, we were meeting with leadership and one of the guys was saying that, you know, what was, what was incredibly thrilling for them was when, you know, they had come on a job site and it was, you know, the, the the general contractor was telling other people, well, you know, we usually do things this way because they were, they were so used to doing the sort of boutique, you know, kind of, or not boutique, sorry, these sort of standard approaches. And this was so boutique and so unique that they were like, you know, oh, and then the general contractor said, well, that's, that's the way these guys do things. You know, it's like, oh, this, this is, this is the, the, their studio's way. Right? If you can get whatever the equivalent is for your field or your industry, if you can get people telling stories that that's your way of doing things, then, you know, you've achieved like something that like is an extremely— like, like if, if I'm going out and advocating the FRC way of doing things, which I often do, right? Like, that is far more valuable, far more valuable than somebody who's paid to tell that story or paid to share that piece, right? So yeah, so in creating these cultures of stories, it's often identifying what is the why, what is the motivation behind sharing the story? Right. And secondly, is there, is there a way that we can build this in? So are there ways that in, even in our team meetings, we're sharing experiences that happened over the weekend that reinforce our brand or re-examine values of the organization?

Right, exactly. And I mean, and there's just a wealth of neuroscience research to show too that more areas of the brain are going to be activated when you're conveying information through storytelling than this more kind of didactic, dry approach. I love, I love your nudge for people to think about how could you even infuse meetings with this approach, because you're going to get so much more social cohesion, you're going to get so much more interaction, engagement from that technique than, you know, the standard dry, you know.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I love that. So before we, before we go here, you know, we started talking about your MTP and, you know, any good MTP creates limitless motivation because at some level it's insatiable, right? It's— you never actually get there. So I want to hear, so what's, what's the next chapter in your story? What's next for you?

Sure. So the big thing, as I said, Odd Duck is growing. So we're—

Congrats.

Thank you. I'm also— we have a book, or I have a book due out next year by Roman and Littlefield, a publisher focused around community violence interventions. So it actually tells the story of my coauthor and a very close friend of mine who actually went from being a gang leader, uh, to being a peacemaker and peace activist over the course of, uh, you know, the past 15 years or so. Um, and, and it sort of tells the story of, of what he had to do to sort of overcome, uh, the intergenerational trauma that he had experienced, uh, and to break that cycle. While at the same time telling the story of this growing movement nationwide, of all of these community activists who weren't necessarily banded up with the national movement. So it's a story of both the movement and of the individual.

That sounds incredible, Josh. You'll have to come back and hang out with us again to celebrate the book launch, because that sounds, that sounds amazing.

Thank you.

Thank you. So one last ask for you. You've dropped like crazy amounts of peak performance strategies for our listeners, but any, any kind of parting words of advice, suggestions, other strategies that, that you think the collective members benefit from hearing? Yeah. Some parting peak performance sage advice here.

So, yeah, so I, I, um, I guess the, the thing, you know, I, I heard this interview with, uh, Elon Musk at one point. You know, all things come back to Elon Musk. But I had this interview with him at one point. He was talking about, uh, Neuralink, the, the product. He was saying at a certain point, at a certain time, um, when, when, when the product is ready to go, uh, they're basically going to be able to set whatever price they want for it, because the competitive advantage that it will provide for the people who use it versus the people who don't, it can be so astronomical that, like, you know, that it'll essentially pay for itself multiple times over. So this is— Elon Musk says a lot of things. We take, we take all things with a grain of salt, but, you know, But I would say there is a— I think that's a perfect analogy for how I feel about you all, right? And about FRC. Because honestly, like, being able to— like, where it has helped position me in my career, I would not have gotten here on my own. And it has certainly paid for itself as of now, as of this interview. We'll check it again a year from now when the book is out, but as of now, it's paid for itself 3 times over, right? And so hopefully we can get that up to maybe 5.

Let's do it.

But, but that, but that's my point, is like, this, it will more than pay for itself. This is an investment in yourself and your future and so on. So that's, that's what I would, I would I would say to everybody, that would be my parting thing is just take the course. Either would just sign up for one of them or all of them. But there is something, there is no way that this wouldn't benefit any of your listeners in one way, shape, or form.

Well, thank you. That's incredibly high praise and I appreciate it. And we're incredibly grateful to have you as a member of The Collective. And thank you for sharing some of the, the lessons you've learned along the way and for hanging out with me. This has been so much fun.

Um, I appreciate you, Tori. I do. And, and everything that you guys do.

Thanks, Josh. Thanks. And we'll, we'll be sure to put all of the ways that listeners can find you and learn more about you, learn more about Odd Duck in the show notes. So stay tuned for that. Uh, thank you again for your time and Uh, take care.

Awesome, thanks, Tori.

Hey, it's Joshua with the production team. Question for you: when was the last time you were in the zone? When you were in so deep that afterward you were stunned by how much you got done even though very little time had passed. Now you've got bold goals, yet you're slammed with work and you're short on time, and you know the heights of productivity you can achieve when you get into the zone because you've been there before. But it's a mild form of torture knowing how productive capable of being without access to that level of output all the time. So how do you get into the zone whenever you need it? There's still a lot that we don't know about flow states, but over the last 25 years of researching it, we've learned a lot, and we've shared our findings with thousands of high performers. You're in flow during those moments of total absorption when you're so focused on the task at hand that everything else disappears. Time passes strangely and performance just soars. I mean, motivation and productivity, creativity in innovation, learning and memory, cooperation and collaboration all skyrocket. In some studies, as high as 500% above baseline. Now imagine what you can accomplish if you could reliably increase your productivity by 5x. And the best part? Flow is accessible to everyone, anywhere, at any time. You don't need to pop a pill. You don't need to be surfing a monster wave. You don't need to meditate on a mountaintop for 10 years to get there. Flow is accessible to you right here, right now. If you'd like to amp up your productivity and get leverage on every second, go to getmoreflow.com. Just think of your 10 out of 10 days when you get more done in the morning than you typically do in a full day. Now imagine if you tapped into that level of performance with push-button consistency every day. All this is possible when you trigger flow frequently and reliably. Just go to getmoreflow.com, unblock your flow, and unlock peak performance.

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