The Psychology of Poker, Non-Verbal Behaviour, and Coaching in High Risk Situations with Blake Eastman

when I had the best hand or a hand where I know I couldn't lose, I experienced arousal, but nothing crazy. When I was bluffing, same exact thing. The arousal profiles look very similar from a psychophysiological perspective. But if I was like on a flop and I had like top set, but there's a potential for a straight out there, that's where all my physiological arousal came from. And part of that reason is because I'm a little bit of a control freak. In that moment, I didn't have control.

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All right, welcome Blake Eastman to the Flow Research Collective Radio. It's a pleasure to have you here. So Blake is the founder of the behavioral research company, The Nonverbal Group, the founder of the School of Cards, and has a decade of coaching poker players and executives in high performance, and he's also the adjunct psychology professor at the City University of New York. Blake, welcome. It's, uh, going to be a lot of fun here today.

Oh yeah, thanks so much for having me.

So I'm excited to explore what you've learned studying and decoding human behavior and really diving deep into your craft around, you know, recoding players to achieve flow. Um, I'm really interested in going deep into the kind of the nuances you've learned around self-control and self-regulation, and maybe even if we dive deep into the dark side of poker, or even say, one of the things I gotta ask just right off the bat, have you ever gone to a poker table and unknowingly seen one of your university students? And how'd that go for you?

No, I have, um, I've never seen a student at a poker table, but I have seen— so there was in a WSOP event, there was this— so basically there's something called a delayed apex, which is basically when someone checks their cards, it's how long they're checking their cards, which we found can be correlated with hand strength. I sat down at the table, I was playing for about an hour and a half, and there was a guy directly across from me that— So he checks his cards and he checks them for 7 or 8 seconds, like outside the bell curve of how long you would ever check your cards. And then he drops them and then he looks at me and winks and smiles. But it's funny, at the poker table, this actually comes up where there's this little thing in the back of my mind, like, did this person take my Are they leveling me? Are they doing something to— But most of the time, there's actually a trick. Have you ever heard of the orientation reflex?

No. Tell us about it.

The orientation reflex is this really cool thing. It's similar to the cocktail effect where you say your name at a party and you respond to it. Usually, if somebody's watched me in so many videos or something like that and I sit at their table, they can't hide it. They go, oh. There's a little— It's kind of like if you see someone that you know or like, but Never have seen a student at a poker table. That would be quite great, actually, if that were to happen.

So your life seems to be revolved around poker psychology and understanding nonverbal behavior. How did you end up in this place and this field of study?

Yeah, so really, in graduate school, I, at the age of 17, I saw this movie called Rounders, got really into poker. When I got into graduate school, I was like, "I'm going to take these two things very seriously." So my whole life was basically like, at that time, forensic psychology and poker. Poker was always just like a means to an end. I wanted to get actually a JD/MBA and go into M&A and all that stuff. Then I got really interested in poker. At the time, I was starting to get interested in research and I was like, Oh, wow, I could fund my own studies with poker winnings. That was kind of the beginning of a lot of this stuff. Actually, a lot of it stems from frustrations with IRBs. I got to see how IRBs operated and I was like, I thought there was a little bit too much politics in it and not enough about protecting human subjects and so on and so forth. So I was like, well, if you have access to capital, you can do that. And there was this weird part of my life where I could have went the academic route, Or I just decided to like, let's do our own research and let's do our own things. And it's not as smooth. It wasn't a smooth curve. I bootstrapped Beyond Tells, which had a lot of ups and downs for me financially as an entrepreneur. But I've always just been obsessed with human behavior and just why we do things. And the fact that there's so much depth and there's so much similarities, but there's so much difference. And Yeah, I just think humans are just the most fascinating things out there, and poker was a way at the time to look at this in a very controlled space and controlled environment.

You know, one of the things— my hope for today's conversation, to really maximize, you know, the opportunity to inform our listeners on the science of flow as you've come to understand it, is I'd love to look deep into some of the studies and research that you've been doing at the Nonverbal Group and then dive into after that, you know, your coaching practice, how you support high performers to find flow and poker in the corporate space and elsewhere. So I'm wondering, could we kind of start off by looking a little bit about, you know, what is the studies that you've done at Nonverbal Group and Poker Tells? Yeah, Poker Tells. Tell us a little bit more of the work you've been Yeah.

So the nonverbal group was basically— the biggest study we ever did was on poker players. So this is a project called Beyond Tells, which was the largest behavioral study ever conducted on poker players, period. So we had a bunch of— I mean, I did version 3.0, it's coming out actually in June, but I did 2 studies, now the third, where we had a bunch of players come in, we have them play with their own money, and we record them from multiple camera angles. And Actually have them wear some psychophysiological devices like the Empatica E4 to measure like electrodermal activity, EDA, and like pulse and all that. And then basically what we do— So there's this crazy moment where I did the first study, right? I do the first study and I start— I was with my fiancée, my fiancée now, but my girlfriend at the time. And I'm like, all right, just this long— I start comparing when people are bluffing versus when they're are strong, and I'm looking for differences, and I don't see any difference. And I'm like, well, maybe there's just— maybe there's nothing here. Like, maybe this was like a wasted effort. And then one day, I was just like randomly watching a player play, and only one player play, and I'm like, oh, wow, like the player checked their cards a little bit differently in the first hand than they did in the second hand. This player's bet timing was a little bit different here and there. And then I was recommended to an approach called grounding theory, which is basically in my opinion, a really phenomenal way of doing behavioral research in the sense that you don't go in with a hypothesis. You just go in and you find a way of tagging and labeling the data, and then the data tells us the story. So that's what I ended up doing. I mean, it was nuts. We manually counted 585,000 blinks, and we coded every single time someone bet, every single time someone checked their card, so on and so forth. Ironically now, 90% of that is automated, meaning I've built software to do a lot of this. But that's what we're about. We're about looking, deconstructing behavior to its most basic elements and then learning from that.

So tell us a little bit more about the measurements that you take and how that, you know, what you glean from that. So you mentioned using, sorry, I forget the device you're using there.

Empatica. Yeah. So it's— so like the psychophysiological devices are interesting because they were more so used to identify like hotspots of information. So I was like, all right, like all of a sudden this— so that's the thing where poker gets so complicated. Like when it comes to things like body language, most of it is so simple, it's not real. Like it's like the advice that you get sometimes is just absolutely It's almost comical, like, oh, you should smile. And there are some like body language experts or whatever that have written books on poker players that are just like fundamentally wrong because they're not understanding the contextual subtleties of what poker actually is. So for example, like we would blink rate, spent I don't know how much money doing that process and looking at it deeply thinking that there was going to be this uniform theme. There really wasn't. What we found is we found increases and decreases that were dependent on the context and what that player was going through. So what was really interesting was, all right, let's go down the rabbit hole a little bit. So let's say you get a fairly decent recreational poker player, and then you get a world-class poker player, and they're playing both high-stake games or something that's going to produce a certain level of physiological arousal. A very, very well-studied, grounded in theory, understands the game, high-level poker player might get into a spot or a dynamic where they make a bet that they know over time is going to be profitable. Therefore, it's not producing that much physiological arousal because they're so confident that they made the right decision. So even though they are bluffing, they know the bluff was EV and the right thing to do. So you don't see that much of a physiological spike in them. Right? But there are subtleties and differences. So for example, in me, when I wore in a WSOP main event, I wore the Empathica E4 for like 5 days of it. And I looked for themes in my behavior. And what was fascinating was I experienced when I had— Do you play poker at all?

Yeah.

Okay. So when I had the best hand or a hand where I know I couldn't lose, I experienced arousal, but nothing crazy. When I was bluffing, Same exact thing. The arousal profiles look very similar from a psychophysiological perspective. But when I was in a dynamic where I was ahead, but my opponent could potentially— So if I was on a flop and I had top set, but there's a potential for a straight out there, that's where all my physiological arousal came from. And part of that reason is because I'm a little bit of a control freak. So in that moment, I didn't have control. I was like, "I know I'm doing the right thing, but for me, I can't control the outcome. That's just the law of variance, and that's the law of poker, and let's see what happens." Because of that dynamic, that was where all the arousal came up. So I saw differences for different people, and what we ended up building was a method for addressing what kind of person that is and how to look at that person for information, as opposed to here's some blanketed statement that everybody does when they're bluffing or when they're strong or so. There's subtleties to it.

One of the, you know, it's very interesting. I often think about this one quote from actually the Tao Te Ching, how the most dangerous moments is when we're either kind of walking up a ladder, like succeeding, but also failing, walking down a ladder, because we're kind of on unstable. So I'm sure you've seen that with players where, you know, maybe they make bigger mistakes when they're on high, and, and, you know, oh yeah, they make more mistakes when they're on tilt. So yeah, how do you work with, you know, individuals, athletes, you know, players or executives to manage those kind of peak and down moments?

So, uh, ironically, a lot of that has been grounded in, in sleep. So my fiancée owns a company called Sleep is a Skill, and she optimizes people's sleep. And so we're very like sleep-focused household. And with a lot of players in very big games, that's one of the really interesting things is like I would track players. They wear this device called the Oura Ring that just gives us some metrics on, on sleep. And there'd be things where I'm like, you can't play poker today. Like, I know I know you think you could play poker today. And I know that you think your, you know, your C game is better, but you're gonna, you're just so much more prone to all of these things because you're not rested and putting in routines and ways of hedging that. And like, if there's like a really high level poker player listening, it's like one of those things where it's hard because in these big nosebleed games, like they run from like, you know, Thursday to Sunday, and that's how this person like essentially makes a living and the players aren't that great, or they believe that they have an edge. And it's, it's having that certain level of self-awareness. So a lot of What we do is, I guess it's like a CBT framework or a CBT level of awareness where we're looking for behavioral triggers that are indications that you're prone to be making more mistakes. So for example, like not anymore, I guess I've worked on myself, but when I was younger, I'd get frustrated as a little bit of a hothead. And my behavioral trigger was a clenched fist. Like for whatever reason, if I clenched my fist really tight, that was like a warning sign that like, you need to take a break. And I, sometimes when you're faced with things that can affect your actual performance, I think there's too much emphasis on trying to figure out ways to outmaneuver that instead of like, just stop the activity. Right? So like, just, just stop, don't, don't do it. So the equivalent of a poker game, it would be like if you start experiencing a certain level of arousal or frustration or whatever, you're not going to necessarily leave the table. But you can narrow your range, you can play less hands. Or like with some of my executives, it's like, you should not have that meeting. Like just cancel it. Like you're not in the right frame of mind. And I don't think a lot of people have the awareness to know when that's happening and rightfully so, it's a difficult thing, but we solve that with video. So we're constantly recording our clients. So I'm able to have material evidence of like, listen, like look what you look like. And they're like, yeah, I look pretty bad. So using behavior as a guiding principle has really helped.

What have you discovered around how different sleep levels, levels of arousal impact perception and judgment? You know, one of the things, when I'm all being mindfulness, it's recognizing that helps us develop this kind of sense of emotional balance that improves perception, judgment, therefore goal achievement. So I'm curious, like, do you have a map or model to understand how certain emotional state or level of arousal Changes perceptions and judgment. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, sleep is huge. I mean, I've just, it's just, I have seen some of the most articulate sort of balanced people. It just goes to shit when they don't sleep. Like, it's just like, you have to sleep if you're not sleeping. And also like the big thing that like with all the work with my fiancée and stuff is like, there's a big difference between the amount of hours you sleep versus the quality of your sleep. So I think people think, oh, I slept 9 hours last night. You don't know what that quality necessarily looks like. Like it could be 9 hours and 5 hours of actual quality sleep where you're tapping into deep sleep or REM that are required to restore those functions. The other thing, so when I work with a lot of people, one of the things I really look for is a, I call it for the capacity for reframing. I find reframing to be one of the most useful tools to navigate life. I'm always looking for where a client is in that regard. So some of these poker— I've talked to poker players that legitimately, I get on the phone with them and they're telling— they just lost over a million dollars that night. Their tonality, it doesn't sound like they lost a million dollars. They're still pretty okay about it. They're able to reframe it and zoom out and have the perspective to move them forward. So that is my first coaching framework is that, what is your capacity to frame. And then the other one is establishing reality of situations. So like we attach a lot of meaning to certain situations and a lot of meaning things. So I listen very carefully to people's language and I'm like, what meaning are they making out of things? And for me, when at least in my practice or what I do, when I have the inability to frame plus making meaning out of things that are, and they're not catching it, it's like a warning sign that this is not like, you're not in the right space right now. Like we have to take you off the table.

Let's dive into this a little bit more. I love this, Blake. So as far as— let's start with reframing. And if maybe you can almost look at it through like a cognitive behavioral distortions, right? Cognitive biases that come up when someone's underslept or under or over-aroused. So let's dive into that. And then the meaning part, you know, I think logotherapy, you know, and finding, you know, through Viktor Frankl's work.

I mean, that's like the best, that's like the best example of it. I mean, if you, I mean, he's the GOAT of that.

Like, that— so what, what cognitive distortions or, you know, unhelpful thinking styles do you see more prominent in an underslept, you know, executive or poker player? Like, what are the things you look out for and maybe are most detrimental to— yeah, yeah.

So what's— okay, so this is what's interesting. So high performers that I've worked with They're not— you have to be hyper-aware because I don't feel like— it's rare that I get on the phone with them and they're in a completely distorted narrative. It's not like, oh my God, what do you— it's subtle. It's really subtle. It's like they say things that they normally don't say. They'll slip like, I just can't believe this is happening. Just a little slip-up. And I'm kind of like, all right, they're probably being on their best behavior because they know I'm listening and so on and so forth. But it's trying to capture, I believe, those little subtleties which are for that person. So for me, I look for themes of victim-based mentality, right? They just feel like something's out to get them. I also look for— I start immediately when I hear things like that, I go towards not the playing field. So if somebody talks about having a really rough session or a really rough meeting, the first thing I do is explore family, social, all the outside dynamics that I believe are exasperants for those particular things. And then we start to go there and we basically— I can't tell you the amount of times that it's like, yeah, things are not going well at home. It's like, okay, so let's— and we start going down that rabbit hole. And little things start to add up to massive cognitive distortions where now they have the lens that everything in life is just not working for them. And sometimes when somebody's in their own head, and I mean, I have 3 coaches that I work with to prevent myself from doing this. I mean, I think that's why you need a coach in your life often is because you don't have the perspective. Right before this call, I talked to one of my coaches, John Michael Morgan, and I'm saying something and he's like, well, and then I hear myself saying it. I'm like, Yeah, it doesn't— that's not grounded in reality, right? So, um, a lot of it is— I don't believe a lot of problems from high performers come from like— they're masters of their craft. Like, it's what else— what am I— what's going on that you're not telling me, and what do we need to do to affect that? And being able to carve and cut that out and hold them accountable, and just also sometimes just make sure that I'm there for them and know that I will hold them accountable, helps as well. And also it's hard, you know, like, you know, when you're coaching, like, I'm a very frameworks-based person. Like, all my work is grounded in frameworks. And it's like, the higher level, the higher framework, everything falls into, but sometimes you just see something, it's like a subtlety, and you're like, this person needs a little bit more love today. You know, this person needs a little bit more listening. This person needs like, no, toughen up and let's go. It's, it's a way more dynamic thing than I think most people realize. And I use behavior to guide my coaching. Like, I've, you know, sometimes if I'm like, this person's going to end this call in tears today, like, that's what's going to— like, that's what this— that's what they need. And sometimes it's enjoyment.

Like, how do you develop those, you know, really, you know, high trusting, high, you know, therapeutic alliance, we could call it, just like those high, you know, intimate relationships with your clients?

So I actually have Okay, so this is an interesting one. So I, I think certain, certain aspects of therapy make it a lot harder to do this, not all therapeutic frameworks, but some of them. So for example, like when I was in graduate school doing studies, like they used to, I have to enter, like, introduce my hobbies, like, listen, I'm a graduate student, and I'm doing this study, and this is, and go over all these things. And it creates just such a disconnect between me and the person. And I was working in forensics. So they were like, they'd curse me. They're like, who the hell are you? Like, get away. And once I just started being more of myself and still reading confidentiality, but in a way that I would do it, you know, like, listen, here's the deal. I'm doing this study, da, da, da, da, da, da. And just making it more human and more— I think one of the big things is there are times and moments where approaching from a— like, I self-disclose. I tell them, and which is something in certain therapeutic firms you do not do. Like, you do not tell, you divert, you navigate that in an interesting way. I'm like, listen, I've been there, boom, boom, boom. Or I tell stories about other clients who have been there. It's just creating a more sense of relatability. I think you need a certain level of relatability You need a certain level of connection before any work can actually get done, because there needs to be safety. Also, just a complete lack of judgment. I'm pretty good at it. I remember one time I was talking to someone who— this was a long time ago. It was 10 years ago. But she was telling her story, and it was horrible. At the age of 12, she was basically made to be a prostitute by her father. It was the most wildest study. I was in the South Bronx of New York, And we're having this discussion. I'm like, I'm a blonde hair, blue eye kid who grew up with so much love in the family that I just can't relate. So when I'm sitting there, it's not looking at her with compassion or anything. It's just listening to her, just nothing. I'm not shaking my head. I'm just like, okay. And there was this moment where I was like, listen, I've been working in this vertical for the past 2 years. There's nothing that you will say that's going to shock me. So let's just I said, just tell me what's up. And she just had the permission to just gush and told me everything. And I just sat there. I listened. I remember on the bus home, I cried, but not during the actual— I was able to do that. And yeah, I think that's something that's not brought up. And technically, I mean, therapy was not my modality. It was assessment. But it didn't seem like you were allowed to do those things. And that's why Sometimes coach/therapist is a much better title, I think, in a certain regard, because you can create that, that connection. Yeah, beautiful.

Well said. I often come back to some of the teachings by Irvin Yalom, the interpersonal kind of famous therapist, and he talked, you know, seeing the coaching or the therapeutic path as being kind of like a fellow traveler along the journey with— and so, you know, as opposed to— I think you mentioned this earlier— uh, trying to give advice or whatnot. Trying to shift the conversation often from what's being spoken about, the content of the conversation, to the actual process. Like what's occurring right now as we're talking about this between you and I, and using that as a kind of in-the-here-and-now place to do some really interesting work that's unlike the relationships we typically have with other people in our life. And I think that's just such a unique part of the coaching relationship. It is quite special. And, you know, I guess we could say almost sacred in a way that it's quite, yeah, different than other context. So, um, you know, one thing you said next, after working on reframing— and one of the reframes we often share in our course is reframing anxiety to excitement. Interesting studies around that. So just something that a lot of our clients get some joy out of. You mentioned finding meaning. So tell me a little bit about helping executives, helping poker players find meaning during maybe high-risk situations, maybe during after, you know, a failed tournament, or—

yeah, finding meaning is an interesting question. So like, it's very cliché to say, but like, I really believe in this whole like multiple why model of why you're doing something. And when I start stuff off, I like to get a sense of that, of like, all right, like, why are you playing poker? And sometimes the answer is like, I've been doing this for the past 15 years, it's the only thing that I'm good at. And I'm like, all right, that's a little bit of a red flag. And other times it's like, oh, it's the most intriguing, intellectually stimulating game. I love it so much. I had one client fairly recently who I started talking to. I was like, he was kind of bringing up retiring. And I was like, I think that's the right move for you. Because I could hear in his voice, the way he talked about the game was considerably less enthusiasm. But I really think it also boils down to personal commitments and what a person is actually committed to. And sometimes all you need to do is remind them of that. So there's this— I tell this a lot in poker. This is another long time ago, like 8 or 9 years ago, I was working with this firefighter who wanted to— his basically goal, he was a lower stakes player and he wanted to have enough cash to buy a house for his family. And the whole plan was to poker as a vehicle for that. He was a pretty exceptional player, but had struggled with the mental game and that kind of aspect of the game. So in the middle of a session, he texted me and he's like, "Hey, listen, it's not going really well. I'm a little bit— I'm making mistakes. I'm not really focused." And then I went on Facebook and I took a screenshot of his family and all I— I didn't say anything. All I did was send him a picture of his family. The picture of him and his family. He was like, "Got it." The reason why I said that was because we spent all the time saying that that's why he's doing this. He's doing it because he— It's also he enjoys playing poker too. It's not that, but it's like, "The reason why I'm taking it so seriously is because this can be a vehicle or a way for providing that." I think, I mean, I speak for myself too. It's like, we have to be reminded of why we do what we do. And I don't believe in like everybody needs to have a purpose-driven profession and all that stuff. But like, you know, I have a friend that works 10 to 15 hours a week and he is a sales executive and he makes a lot. So it was so funny. We were driving together. I was like, what do you work? I said, what do you work? Like 60 to 70 hours a week. And he goes, 60 to 70 hours a week? Like 10 to 15. Most days, if you come downstairs and see me, I'm playing Oculus golf. And I was like, but he's created this amazing life for himself that he's allowed to live the life the way he wants. So there is still purpose in when he's working and so on and so forth. So I really believe that taking people a process— and I feel like from a behavioral perspective, you know, 45 minutes, not even, sometimes like 10 minutes with somebody, you could tell, all right, they're not happy with what they're doing. Uh, you can kind of see it.

So driving deep into their kind of intrinsic motivators, it sounds like family, the values.

Yeah. —so I guess the layer that I'm not really talking about right now is I do all this stuff, but I record people while doing it. So that's where I'm—that's what I do differently. So I show them, look what you would look like when you talked about your job. And I play it for them and they go, oh my God. Yeah. I don't seem happy. And I'm like, look what you do when you talked about, you know, your part-time thing, look how happy you are. Like, and when people see it, there's a way more visceral reaction also as a coach it's phenomenal because they, they don't fight you as much. Like, it's like, all right, like, look what you look like. I have nothing really to— like, here you go, here's you.

So got a client in front of you, right? And how— or you're, you're teaching other coaches or whatnot, or managers, how to really identify and spot these markers of happiness and, let's say, burnout, or, you know, not being motivated. What are you looking for? What are those metrics that just from your eye, you can look at and identify? That's hard.

So that's the rabbit hole that I'm going down. So a lot of the time in communications, X doesn't mean Y. So there's probably a couple things that I could create like, oh, if you see, you usually, you need to understand the narrative and you need to understand what people are going through. But a lot of what I do is reactive in nature, meaning I get the most people, most reaction out of people by telling a story and see how they react, or asking very specific questions at the right exact times. But a lot of it also is— So the model that we use is this perspective awareness and social mechanics. It's complicated. So everybody has a different perspective. That's the first thing you need to understand is that we all have our own origin story. We all see the world differently. The second thing, second aspects of awareness are two. First, it's awareness of social norms that are existing that aren't written down anywhere. And the other is like actual behavioral awareness. And what a lot of people are looking for is like, show me the top 3 signs that my boss doesn't like me. When in reality, they should be engaged in almost like Sherlockian discourse or process of like being curiously engaged of figuring it out. And a lot of the time, the best thing to do is just ask. So I have this whole thing where people tend to be like, "Hey, is everything okay?" And they're like, "Yeah, fine." Like, "Okay, let's start the meeting." They don't really ask if everything's okay because people have a sense of uncomfort with dealing with things like that. And listen, this is— I actually, my executive coaching career came from the fact that the reality was that that particular time in my life, I had a chip on my shoulder and I was like, I don't care if you run a hedge fund, you're not going to tell me what to do. And I would just give it to everybody straight and they loved it because I was the only person in their life that was just not holding back. But the reality was it was out of my own lack of safety and security and so on and so forth. And it eventually became a pretty interesting tool. And I don't think I coach like that anymore, but yeah, my responsibility is to tell them how it is. So if somebody's showing up in a way Like I'm the first one to say, like, listen, you came across like an asshole in that meeting. Like that was like, and oh, this is another thing. This is my favorite thing about what I do. I don't tell people how to act. All I make sure is that they're in alignment with what they told me they want to be like. So if they want to come across like a tyrant and they want everyone to fear them, all right, you're doing your job, man. You're in alignment. But if they want to I do this thing where I tell people to imagine their funeral. So like, imagine what people are saying about you at your funeral. And like, what would your team say now? And so that usually hits people. Like, it usually— he's, you know, she overworked me. You know, she did this, she did that, she wasn't there for me. Like, what? And sometimes it's like, like, Elon Musk is the best example. Like, somebody was asking me a question about Elon, and I was like, listen, his context is I want to get to Mars. If he wants to get to Mars and that's his context, yeah, your kid's graduation doesn't matter because the context is we're going to Mars. So why would we care about your kid's graduation? But other leaders don't want to lead like that. So it's personal choice. And that's why this whole like thought leadership stuff that there's like, there is a way to lead is absolutely crazy. Like everybody is different. Everybody has their own path, their own journey. And you got to discover what that is.

Beautiful. Yeah. Well said. So I'm going to ask one more kind of poker question. I'm sure there'll be more. You know, I was reading some on your website and you talked about, you know, this kind of myth of a poker face. You know, some— is there such a thing as a poker face, and can we mask our emotions effectively? That's okay.

So the answer is, out of all the parts in the body at a poker table, the face is the worst place to pay attention to. So that's the first thing, right? Part of the reason is because is you don't have to react to anybody at the poker table. You don't have to talk. You don't have to say anything. So a lot of emotional slip-ups that you'd normally see in a standard conversation, you're not going to see in the face. Most people just look and they just keep their mouth shut and that's it. So in terms of usefulness, the hands are way more useful in both a high-stakes population and the average population. The second thing is controlling— All right. So controlling emotional reactivity at the poker table, yes, there are things that you can do. There are little strategies, and a lot of it is like, with some of my wealthier clients that are not necessarily professional poker players, I have a motivational talk with them. I'm like, listen, what happens if you lose money? Nothing, right? Some of these other pro poker players, if they lose, it's not nothing. So punish them. That's the mindset. You're going out there and you're punishing everybody else. But what I found with poker is it's not really emotional slip-ups that are where we get the most information. It's cognitive ones. Meaning what often happens is a player pairs their thought process with their behaviors so that we can use behavior to reverse engineer how they're thinking. Emotion is a nightmare at the poker table. And the reason why is it's so multifaceted. You could be in a situation, in a dynamic where you look like you have all this physiologic— you look physiologically aroused because you're so excited and you have the best hand and you're about to proceed. And in another situation, you could look like that because you didn't sleep and it's higher than normal. It's such a rabbit hole to figure out what it is. You can figure it out. It just takes— it's hard to do it in real time. The only way to do it is if you're talking to the person and they're going back and forth with you, there's some strategies and tactics. The whole joke is we're not really looking for emotion at the poker table. Everybody thinks we're not looking for a cognitive process.

Interesting. Yeah, I wouldn't have thought about it that way. I would think that, yeah, the emotions would be a big part.

Right. And why we don't think about this, why? Because of the cultural narrative. The cultural narrative about poker dictates it's a game where we hide our emotions. And but it's not taking into account— and yeah, at a very obvious level, I mean, like, if we go to play like a standard 1-2 game, or like, yes, then those things are at play. But I'm talking about the highest levels of poker. You're not seeing world class poker players shake or whatever. So what we— let me explain a little bit more detail. So what we found is it's not these emotional signs that mean anything. It is something we call a concealment strategy. So a lot of players, whether they realize it or not, they're creating a certain mechanism to reduce information. And what we found is that mechanism is what is the quote unquote, like tell. So for example, like if you watch like a lot of high stakes poker players, some of them might practice a concealment strategy of hyper stillness where they just don't move. But then if you see sometimes when they're bluffing, they, they don't move at all. And when they're a little bit more comfortable, they like slightly move. So it's the difference in their concealment strategy that was more of an indication as opposed to emotion.

You know, one thing I meant to ask earlier is you mentioned WSOP. So the World Star Is it World Star of Poker? World Series of Poker. Yeah, World Series of Poker. So tell us, you know, for the listeners that maybe haven't sat at a table in a tournament before, tell us, give us an insight of the poker culture. What kind of folk, you know, man?

Yeah, the honest poker culture.

Okay, so, and why it's such a great mechanism for you and your experience of understanding human behavior.

And yeah, yeah, that's a great question. It's a really Really good question. Okay, so poker is fascinating. And the reason why poker is fascinating is because you have a blend of strategy, you have a blend of emotional control, awareness, all these things on a foundation of what's called variance. So variability, which is— we can call luck, variance is a nicer term. And you get to really see how people like show up in the world, and you get to see like, What are their thresholds and what are their pain points and what they can deal with? And I really do believe that poker in a lot of ways is almost like a projective assessment of personality. Like people do play, like, you know, when you play recreationally with like my friends that are not very serious, like the conservative people, they're pretty conservative. Like I don't— my conservative friends aren't blasting off and the more reckless friends are more reckless. And I think that poker is just such a— like, how you— I always talk about like how you show up in the world is how you show up at a poker table. At something like the WSOP Main Event, it's just such a cool energy because there's a lot of like— it's like a bucket list item for a lot of people. So everybody's kind of in the beginning, everybody's just really happy to be there. And it's quite beautiful. But if you go to like your standard 1-2 table or 2-5 table, you look around, I mean, most of them probably meet the behavioral classification for depression, like eyes downcast and they don't look like— and that's one of my big things when I coach. I'm like, listen, if you're not enjoying this game, why are you playing it? Because there's a lot of other ways to make money. And that's one of the behavioral indicators. You see some players, they look, they're like a hawk. They're interested. They're engaged. They're enjoying themselves. But it's kind of— when I coach, it's like, what are you optimizing for? Are you optimizing for your hourly rate? Are you optimizing for fun? You know, I've had clients where I'm like, why are you taking this game so seriously? Just relax. Just relax and enjoy yourself. And it's funny because I think sometimes both hyper, hyper competitiveness and happiness are gateways to flow in that game. But like, yeah, the flow has to be looked at in poker because I have seen people in that flow. Like I have I have seen people that you just— they have that look in there. It's hard to even describe it, but you— they're just dialed in. They're just completely dialed into what's going on. And I've had my own indications of where, like, time slows down. I'm like, what, that was a 7-hour session? It felt like 30 minutes. Like, what happened? Um, but it's also knowing your boundaries. But yeah, I mean, you want to see how a person reacts. Have— and also just little things, like the person that gets really frustrated at the table, you don't think that they show up like that with their family and at work? Of course they do. And then the person that like— and then you also see these players who they don't want to lose, so they're so obsessed with studying. So all they do is study the game. They study, they study, they study, they study because they don't want to lose when they're on the court, when in reality poker literally is a game where you're always losing. Like, you're winning hopefully more than you're losing, but you're always losing. And it's just, it's phenomenal. And the reason why I like it as a, almost like a behaviorist, like the reason why is because in poker, there's an assemblance of ground truth. You have a hand that is grounded in reality. We know for a fact that that player right there knows that they're bluffing. So we have a connection to certain things. My work on social interactions, it's a nightmare. You sit down with someone and they're anxious, and you think that they're anxious because of this, but they're anxious because of something at work or something of this. So poker, it's way more direct, which makes it a phenomenal place to, to study human behavior.

What would you say about— you mentioned having glimpses yourself of being in flow playing poker, and you've obviously watched a lot of video of executives in meetings, you know, in calls, or, you know, watching people play poker. You know, is there any metrics that you really study, whether kind of HRV or you know, skin conductivity or, you know, anything that you— so just, you get to the metrics.

Yeah, this is one of the things we're doing in our, our third study. We're using like LiDAR and a bunch of other LiDAR, and everybody's wearing these Empatica tools and really looking at it. I mean, from a behavioral observation, like at a poker table, the flows in the eyes and gaze direction, there's a precision and a movement that goes on with certain players where it's like, oh, they're in it. They're in it and they're not checking their phone. And remember, I think flow is— people think it's sports a lot and it's studied in sports, but it happens day to day. I get flow when I'm public speaking. That's my highest version of flow ever. And then the second, sometimes writing, I'm really in that thing. But With poker, I really think if you look at some of these people, they might have just extended amount of flow. You might be like, "Oh my God, this person's in flow for way outside of what we normally would see." I don't think that's everyone, and I don't think they can replicate that all the time. But there are moments, and I've seen games that I've broken down where I'm like, "Oh my God, this person's like a hawk right now." like, uh, and it's just that insane level. But also, we can't, we can't always confuse focus with flow, right? So from a behavioral observation perspective, that could just mean high levels of focus. It doesn't necessarily mean flow. But, you know, sometimes just get a feeling that someone's in that— oh, they're in that zone. It feels like that more so.

Right on. So let's, you know, before we talk about the dark side of flow, I'd like to go maybe a little bit deeper into any kind of performance practices that you might teach with your clients. So, yeah, um, pre-performance routine or imagery and any of that. And I want to do it just through perhaps a lens, and if this is helpful, great. Let's do it. Let's not use this lens. So at the Flow Research Collective, we talk a lot about how to identify and kind of optimize flow triggers. So these are that drive our attention to be in the present moment and reduce the amount of thinking, that kind of cognitive overload that will get us stuck into our heads. So, you know, I don't know if that's a helpful framework for you at all to like, you know, how you've helped people identify flow triggers to drop them in. Um, maybe there's two separate questions there, but yeah, I'm curious of the practices, uh, that you might kind of teach your clients. And yeah, I mean, one of the—

so I think the biggest practice for me and what I bring up is environment. So it's looking at what environmental triggers are preventing that from actually occurring. So for me, it was something like on this call, like don't want anything else to be going on. Like I really love the iPhone and Apple's Focus feature because it blocks the messages on all my devices. And I'm like, all right. So it's like what environmental things are going to take you out of it? And I don't think people do enough of a job setting up their environment for success. Like I'm on a meeting with a coaching call and like I was in a meeting with And my client, her assistant came in like 4 times during the call. And I'm like, listen, we got 20 minutes here. Like, where is that? So looking at like, okay, do you know the 5 Whys, the 5 Why process? So basically, I think it was one, it was a Japanese car manufacturer, I'm pretty sure. But they were looking at problems on an assembly line and they use this mechanism called called 5 Whys to figure out what the problem was. So it's like all of a sudden something broke and they'd ask 5 whys to get at the root of the problem. I tend to go through a process with that with a client. So like, so, and it's more abstract. So sometimes it's like, all right, you had too much caffeine and that's why you're not able to perform. Or sometimes it's like you didn't take care of this and didn't take care of that. So I think that modality is probably how I would be approaching that more than anything else. To get at the source. And I'm, I'm really big about setting up your environment for success because that's something you have full control over. Uh, don't have that in other areas, basically.

Yeah, absolutely. So, so control, distraction management, certainly a big part. You mentioned earlier a little bit about kind of internal approaches, kind of teaching how to reframe, how to develop meaning. And yeah, the other specific practices, certainly there's a lot.

I mean There's a couple of neuroenhancers and stuff like that. I have had— this is not medical advice, but I've had great success with nicotine gum. Very small amounts of nicotine gum as a cognitive enhancer. For me, it puts me in a great state. I've had my clients use the same exact thing. I think that everybody also, and I don't know for what this is worth, But fasting as well. I don't know the research on that, but I do know that for a couple of clients, including myself, I only perform at high level whenever I have to do a high performance task. I'm almost always in a fasted state. And this is just logically, I don't, I don't think people really get how cumbersome digestion is as a process. And I'm sure that that takes away from it sometimes, you know. So just like tough love statements. Like sometimes people need to be like jolted out of it. It's like, listen, what are you doing? Like you're a professional, like stop it. Stop the complaining. And that's what they need. Other times it's compassion. Like it's so variability. Like I know for myself, like when I do things, like sometimes a certain whisper in my ear works. Like certain times I put on a David Goggins podcast and that's the energy I need. You know, I need Man up and let's go. Right? And other times I need a hug. So it's about knowing what that person needs in that moment. And I really don't believe that that's as standardized as we'd like to think. And I really would, my opinion about this is we're looking for this formulaic approach to reaching a state when in reality it's probably more of like a framework-based approach of like question 1, question 2, question 3, question 4, then the nicotine and coffee, you know, like Like that kind of thing.

Stephen often talks about how he hates— Stephen Kotler, when people ask him, you know, what are the 3 things I can do? Yeah, I hate that.

Yeah. It drives me crazy. Any questions like, what are the 3? Like, because the human behavior is so inherently complex, but also I really— so gratitude is something that— but there's gratitude has been used. So when I mean gratitude, so I do this process. This is helpful. This is what I love. I do this thing where I call it reality, history, gratitude. So what I do is I talk to the client and I'm like, all right, so let's get at the reality of the situation. And they go back and forth. I used this on a client recently where financially they were potentially going to lose a lot of money, which wouldn't have had any sort of effect in their day-to-day life. So we did that reality. We do the reality process. They're like, okay, you're going to be fine if this doesn't work Yeah, I'm going to be fine. And then I pull in a historical context and I say like, all right, so just so we're clear, if we went back to the Mongolian Empire and you were an aristocrat or whatever at that time, you'd probably get your head chopped off tomorrow. Right? And then there's a laugh and a lightness to it. And then it's gratitude. And when I say it's gratitude, it's It's not just like, oh, I'm grateful. It's like, all right, close your eyes. Like, you're not being attacked, you're not being safe, your family's safe. What a great— look at all you've accomplished. Like, and get them to be really grateful for that. And that tends to like jolt a lot of people out. So it's, it's a process I use a lot, like reality, history, gratitude. Oh, that's beautiful, man.

I love it. Like, you know, one of the things that's just kind of been a thread throughout this conversation was recognizing individual's human needs, right? These basic psych needs. And when those needs aren't met, whether it's in their family life, right, you mentioned earlier, whatnot, how it will pull them out of being able to kind of conquer the self, go beyond the self, and find flow in poker or whatnot. When there's these other things that are kind of pulling them back, how they might, you know, react at the poker table, wanting to just protect a sense of safety or build up the ego or whatnot, and that Play, you know, in the state of kind of transit, we might even call it beyond the self.

That needs thing is real. Like, I wrote that, I'm in the middle of writing this thing where I feel like Maslow's hierarchy of needs needs to be rewritten almost. And the reason why I say that is because things like shelter and food, like the lower levels, are taken for granted right now that they don't even become part of people's conversation. Yeah. Right? Like when you bring up something like, oh, but you can eat, of course I can eat. Like it's not even, the pyramid doesn't look like that for most people anymore. Like it, I mean, even if we went back like, you know, 50, 60, it still didn't look like that. But you go into another part of the world and that's exactly what it looks like. And really getting how like, how damn fortunate we are, you know? Like, and to go through all that stuff. It's, it's beautiful. It's a skill basically to snap yourself out of it.

Well said. So, you know, just as a reference, you might enjoy, haven't checked it out yet, Scott Barry Kaufman's book Transcend. He actually does create a new, new metaphor, Maslow's hierarchy. Oh really? Oh cool. Dig it, man. So with that said, let's, let's dive quickly here into the dark side of flow. And as you know, I wrote a dissertation on this. Yeah. I think of the dark side of flow. I think of, you know, how flow could lead potentially to a lack of self-control, like ultimately.

100%. Yeah. And this session was great, by the way. I loved it.

So I'll give you an example. You know, I think I mentioned in our first email, you know, as a 16-year-old kid with two older brothers, I'd steal their IDs and I'd get to the casino and, uh, I, I would find deep deep flow states playing poker. But I wasn't living a life that was really producing, you know, I wasn't living in alignment with a lot of my values that were important at that point. I was flunking in school and all these other things. So I was finding a ton of flow, but, you know, to some degree it was kind of the dark side in that regard. So it just is a little bit more context that when I say the dark side of flow is finding flow, but it's leading to self-regulation failure. So some of the studies have been, you know, big wave surfers need to keep increasing to find flow even though they're putting themselves at death. You know, video game addiction, where their life is just so focused on the game, they don't get to anything else. So it's like these just addiction to the state and then this kind of sense of loss when they're not in flow and this sense of, oh, I need to get out of here almost sunk in depression. So obviously we see this, we know gambling addiction and whatnot. How have you worked with, uh, this kind of element of— it's—

yeah, it's huge in poker, specifically online players. Like, I know some online players that you can probably call them flow addicted in the sense that because they've played this game— because when you're playing online, you're seeing like 70% more hands per hour on the— at least And then you're playing multiple tables. So you're constantly inundated with decisions at a second basis often. And some of these wizards just get into that flow. And I had a conversation a couple weeks ago with someone who was— I was like— they were describing flow and they were like, that's the only place I get it is poker. And they're wealthy enough to— they made a lot of money in crypto and they don't need to play poker. But there's that level of, I need to be pulled back to that, or I need to be like brought into that. I've seen that. I've seen that more with online poker players than anything else, a little bit less with the live. I think there's something about the speed of decisions that does that. And there, I mean, you look at, you like behaviorally watch an online poker player, like really in the, in the, it looks insane. They're just like locked. They're really locked in. And yeah, I mean, the feeling's incredible. So it's powerful. Like, the dark side applications that are, are insane. It's like, I want that back. I want that more. I want that. I mean, I, I've— there's this book called, um, uh, it's written by a psychiatrist trained to kill. It was written by a psychologist, a psychiatrist right after Vietnam, and he was talking about these states inside of, um for soldiers who've been overseas and in these like insanely high-stress environments where everything slows down. And they really, you know, that's a good example of flow within itself. But then coming back to civilian life and not finding areas where they can get that same level of flow. And I mean, that it must be tough. Like, it's, it's— I mean, and in the dark side of flow, I think On a much, much lower level application, like, and for probably a lot of people listening, like maybe we don't have extreme examples like that, but we have probably like more subtle examples. Like for me, like I was on a call with my coach before this call because I was making myself wrong about my output this week because like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I was in intense set of intense state of flow for like 2.5 hours in the morning. Maybe not that long, but like I was writing, I was in a really good state and I wasn't able to reach it Thursday, Friday. And I felt bad about myself and wrong about myself because I'm like, well, why can't I get back to that place? And I felt like a little upset yesterday. I was like, I should have ended this week stronger, like so on and so forth. And there's just like an expectation there that you can always hit it. It's not necessarily the case for people, you know? Yeah.

Well said. You know, one of the things that in my dissertation is, I know you took a quick look at, is how do we, you know, continue to experience that sense of kind of transcending the self, right? When we're in flow, the self is gone, right? We're in the writing process or whatnot, and that's typically when we feel best. And then when we're not kind of in the flow, how do we still feel that sense of kind of lightness and not being so self-conscious? And so I've often talked about the kind of mindfulness and acceptance, and you gratitude and all of that. But it's a tricky edge, except especially for someone who is yourself and myself, like coaching people how to find flow and to see that maybe it's not the ultimate refuge, you know, they all need to be, but how do we sustain, you know, self-regulation over than just finding flow, right? Yeah.

Yeah. It was like, and it was in your dissertation. I don't know if it was your study or one of the studies, but I remember vividly, like there was a, in some of like, there was a female surfer who was like, I don't know, my husband wants to have kids. I don't really want to have kids. Like, I want to surf. Like, as like, just as the answer. And it's kind of like, yeah, I get it. Like, you know, it's like, may not want to raise a family, may not want to do all this stuff because you want to chase that experience. And like, I'm not a surfer, but like, I mean, I don't know what it's like to be on the edge. Like, you watch some of those people, it's like nuts.

It's like, so, so what do you say, Blake? And it won't spend too much more time on this, but if you have a, a player, a poker player, executive, or whatnot, where you see that they're just, yeah, so hooked into finding flow in their, in their craft that, um, they're kind of losing, you know, a bigger picture of, you know, the, the impact of their behavior and, and maybe how they might not be living in alignment, as you mentioned earlier, to that ultimate vision. Is Yeah, that, that tough love conversation, the compassion. I know there's nuances here, but any stories about how you've managed this?

Because I imagine— yeah, I mean, a lot of it is helping them see the reality of how the patterns are destructive, but not me calling it out, like letting them self-discover it. So it's like, okay, so like, what's going on with your family? Well, I haven't spent time with my son in the past like 3 weeks, and then Basically having them go through that process and then really getting at a sense of what their core values are, which— and it's hard because it's so easy to say, "Choose your 5 core values and live it." It's a hard thing. So usually it's like people do have a couple things though, like, "I want to be a good mother," or, "I want to be a good father," or, "I want to be there for my kids." And usually you can tell almost in the way that they say it, there's a certain level of passion. And sometimes there's poker players that are younger that are like 24, 25, and it's It's no, it's I want to be the best in the world. And it's like, all right, then chase that flow. And you know, your boyfriend or girlfriend's got to go and let's make this a reality. It's kind of like that book. It's like the most self-help book that's not self-help at all. What's it called? Winning by Tim Grover. Yeah, yeah. Right. And like, it's, it's very— and what it is, is he explains this concept of winning is lonely. And also the CEO of PepsiCo once said in an interview, she was asked, she said, "I had an option between being a good CEO and a good mother, and I chose to be a good CEO." And she said it with such honesty. And she was like, "I don't think I was the best mother." She just flat out said the reality. And it was like, Yeah. Like, how do you run a multinational corporation? And like, how do you have it all? Like, that's a hard thing. And I think if that— but that should be a pursuit for people. Like, it's how do you have all the aspects of— and I know it's been a pursuit for me of like, how do I run an amazing company and growth and all that, but not lose my mind and have balance in my life? And for me, it's always been like, have coaches and people around you that are able to course correct you in the right direction.

Beautiful. Well said. So just a couple last questions here. So anything else we, we haven't spoken about yet that maybe you'd like to share with, with our community?

From a— yeah, so one thing that I find interesting is empathy. For a second, right? So empathy gets a lot of people talk about it, like you need to have empathy. And the reality is, you know, there's emotional empathy and there's cognitive empathy. And I am really big on tripling down on cognitive empathy. Which is not necessarily the emotion someone's experiencing, but what is the potential reason or story on why they're experiencing the emotion? And with working with so many people over the years, you just don't know what people are going through. And I really believe that there's so much power in taking a step back to ask, okay, why would they maybe be showing up that way? And I'll just— the, the story I was teaching psychology when I was— I haven't taught in a while. I used to be an adjunct there. And I basically, this was like 8 or 9 years ago, I had a student in my class who fell asleep. And like, I was kind of like always joking around as a professor. So I took a textbook and I like dropped the textbook and they woke up. And she woke up and I was like, listen, everyone, I'm not calling her out. Just don't come to class. Like it ruins the energy. Like, I don't mind if you got tired, you got life, like yeah, And after class, she comes to me. I was like, you don't got to apologize. She's like, no, I need your advice. And I was like, what's going on? She's like, last night my mother stabbed my sister 6 times in the chest. And I was like, what? It was like, my mother's paranoid schizophrenic. She had an episode. And I'm like, you came to my class? Like, and I don't— I think if people were able to just like touch another human, they would see why they are the way that they are. And that doesn't make their behavior right, or that doesn't make that they're wrong. But I just think that we need more of that in society. And for the A+ personality executive, it's not, oh my God, they're sad. It's, I wonder why they're sad. I wonder what's going on in life. And as a leader, I think it's your responsibility to ask that question and have the ability to potentially coach people out. And that's the last thing I would say is with all of the knowledge that gets passed down from from this podcast and all the podcasts that you have done or the Flow Research Initiative, I think there needs to be a better call to action that everybody should be coaches as opposed to just learning the tools and using it for oneself. Because then that exponentially makes the world a better place. And it really is what leadership is. You're fostering the ability to share that with others. So like really learn something and then apply it in a way that can change somebody else's life. I think you'll get a a much more effective mixture of neurochemicals from that than you probably will from doing it on your own. Yeah.

Like beautiful, man. Well said that. Yeah. That's right on. So last question then. We do this research genie question at the Flow Research Collective. So if you could have the answer to any study, kind of know the answer to any big question you might have around human performance or elsewhere, what might that be?

Man, I'm trying to do it, but it's going to take me probably decades. The mechanisms of social perception in people, it's so multifaceted. It's so insanely complex, but at the same time, simple. So why do people perceive people to be a certain way? Research looks at this, but they look at it from a— It's almost like like holding a magnifying glass to a table and attaching it there. Like something along that, because I believe that there's the answers to a lot of communication problems in if we understand perception. Like there's great work on like certain people's faces, the way their face is structured lends people to believe certain things about them. So their impression that they give off is like, oh, this person's not nice. When in reality they haven't heard person say a single thing. It's like, how do you know they're not nice? You just looked at their face. Like, oh, and the reason why is because aspects of their facial structure. And things like that at a scale would be absolutely phenomenal, which I'm trying to do. So if you can get that answer quicker, I would love that. Right on, Blake.

Well, if others have any resources that maybe they can share with you or—

Oh yeah, please let me know. Yeah.

How can people kind of stay connected to Website, social. Yeah. What's the best way?

So yeah, I would, I definitely, I'm always reach out, blake@nonverbalgroup.com. And also on nonverbalgroup.com, I do a newsletter every other Tuesday where I talk about these themes. I would, I would, I would sign up for that. Um, it's probably gonna be the best aggregate of my, uh, information. Nonverbalgroup.com.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Blake, well, thank you so much. Uh, it's been a pleasure connecting with you. I've, I've definitely learned a lot. And, um, again, I wish I maybe had some of these insights when I was a young 16-year-old. But, uh, now, so hopefully I'll be able to, you know, take some of my family and friends down next time we play. So it's good, man.

Thank you so much for this. Yeah, you bet, buddy.

We'll talk soon.

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