The Heartbeat Interview: Wade Foster, CEO + Co-Founder of Zapier

Hey everyone, I'm Claire Lew and I'm the CEO of Know Your Team, and I am thrilled today to have on The Heartbeat Wade Foster, who is the founder and CEO of Zapier, this amazing integrations platform, which we use every single day at Know Your Team. And who knows how many ways that we use it and depend on it. And we're not the only ones. So Wade has built this amazing company with over 200 people, entirely remote, I believe over $35 million in annual revenue, only raised one small round of funding. I know you came out of YC back in the day. And yeah, you know, all the numbers are really impressive, etc., etc. But what I'm actually most impressed by, Wade, is just his humility and how he's chosen to build this company really with an eye for the long term. So excited to to chat with you today, Wade, and to ask you this one question I've been asking leaders I admire. And it's a surprise.

Oh boy. Yeah.

So, you know, with some of my guests, we talked about this earlier, they, you know, they get the question in advance and sometimes, you know, they prefer it to be a surprise. And Wade was like, all right, I want this to be a surprise.

So we'll see how this goes.

You ready?

Let's do it.

All right. So this one question about leadership I want to ask Wade is, What's one thing you wish you would have learned earlier as a leader?

Can everything be an answer?

If you'd like, yeah, we have all day. We can talk all day.

You know, I, shoot, one thing I wish I knew earlier. There's a lot of things I wish I knew earlier.

Yeah, several things too.

Yeah, I think the thing that's probably most, if there's one thing, I think there's this pressure when it's your first time that you kind of, that you just know everything, that like you instinctually like have all the answers. Like you're put in this spot for some reason, you know, destiny or whatever. Like this is the reason and you know, you're the person who has to be the oracle. You know everything. And I think I found throughout the years that like people really just enjoy working with leaders who have a little more intellectual honesty around this sort of stuff and are just like real when they don't know the answers, but also confident when they do and can help people just navigate the hard times a little bit. And I think it opens up the organization to be a little more— like, when you do this well, the organization just gets better at solving problems because they're able to be more honest with each other. If you as a leader are willing to say, I don't know the answer, there's going to be times in the future where I continue to not know the answer, yeah, I'm not the best in the world at this job, like, that's just how it is, and you kind of just get that out there, yeah, it frees everyone else to say Okay, it's okay for me to also not be the best in the world at this thing. And we can kind of get rid of this facade. Yeah, it's like we're all gonna be great and just get to the reality of the situation, and which is that we're all flawed people. Our skill sets are all imperfect in some way. We all wish we were better at things that we are trying to do, and just be honest about that. And so then when we reach problems in our work, we can just try and solve them together and just be like, okay, you don't get this, here's how we're gonna figure this out. And it just kind of cuts out a lot of sort of this theater around working and gets straight to the heart of like, this is the problem, how are we gonna fix this? Nobody's fault that we have this problem, we're just gonna deal with it. And so I think early on I spent more time trying to pretend to be better than I am.

Sure, play a character, right? Yeah. And like you were saying, this theater of leadership. I, I couldn't agree more with that in terms of— it's a huge reason I, you know, I do the work that I do is because I look around at all the stuff that is projected about leadership and I'm like, these are relics and like fairy tales of what we would like to think to be true. And to your point, there's this fascinating dichotomy that comes with admitting mistakes, being more grounded, taking away that facade, and then that actually leading to being able to solve real problems faster. And then actually the quicker you are to reveal your weaknesses, the stronger you become, which is this very odd dichotomy. It just doesn't really compute, I think, like you were saying initially. And we built so much expectation for the inverse to be true. So I'm curious for you, Wade, and you, you know, you built this company, you know, first in your early 20s. When did this realization hit you? Was it pretty early on? Has it been more recent?

Has it been—

was there sort of like one aha moment where you were like, oh wow, like this is, this is something, you know, we need to find a way to maybe really embed more into Zapier, maybe in the way that we hire? Just curious like how this revelation really came about for you.

You know, I think it— I don't think there was like an aha moment. I think it was just kind of like a a series of experiences, you know, with individuals, with hearing from other leaders, like how they approach things, and through just kind of trying some of this stuff myself and then like seeing how people respond to it. And you start to go like, wow, that went better than I thought.

Yeah, always a good feeling.

Yeah, it's like, wow, it's, you know, people are cool with when you don't know the answer. Like, it's, people are like, oh, that's fine. Like, I don't know the answers to a lot of things myself. So it kind of ends up, you try it and you kind of just realize like, oh, nothing broke. Yeah, no one quit. Like, bad things didn't really happen. Like, you kind of just have this fear of it. And, you know, when you start to do it the first, first few times, you're like, oh wow, nothing bad happened. And then you also start to see the upside of it. Like, people start coming to you and they're honest about the situations. They're not trying to, you know, there's a project status update and they come in and don't say like, oh, it's going great, everything's fine, nothing's, nothing's wrong here, don't look over here, it's all good. Yeah, like, that stops happening and they start start coming to you and saying like, hey, you know, there's like yellow flag, like, you know, this is maybe gonna cause a problem over here. And so like all of a sudden you start to see, like, you get to reap the rewards of planting this intellectual honesty within the company that is, I think, really helpful.

Absolutely. And I love that framing of intellectual honesty because I think the framing of it really matters to how willing we are to participate in it. If we say it's talking about how, you know, you're not smart enough, or talking about how you mess up all the time, or talking about how you're not good enough, we as leaders, we're not as likely to want to participate in those things. But to your point, you know, is this idea of intellectual honesty, of, you know, a rigor and an openness to what's actually true instead of what you want to be true. I think that definitely encourages folks. One thing I also wanted to ask you about, Wade, is we had had a previous conversation prior to this podcast where I had asked you, you know, so this whole leadership thing is, is so hard and learning lessons like these are so difficult. And I'd ask you, what, why do you think it's so hard? Like, why was it so hard for you to learn that lesson? Love to talk a little bit about that.

You know, I think, I think a thing for me that made it tough was, You know, you start as a founder, and for founders in particular, I think, you know, we tend to be wired in a certain way where we feel like we can just figure things out. We figure it, like, we feel like we don't need, like, a manager to coach us. Like, we don't need, like, this extra handholding, or sometimes you don't even want it. I certainly know that was in my case, where it's like, I'd had bosses before, and I'm just like, you're not helping me. Like, you're actually making my job harder.

Yeah.

And so as a founder, you kind of start to think— you translate, I've had a bad boss, to all bosses are bad, which is not really the case. And— but I had made that translation. And so you start to say, you know, our organization doesn't need management, or we don't need these types of things. I didn't need it, you know, I figured it out on my own. Why does anyone else in our company need this? So you start to tell yourself that sort of story. And I think it takes a little while to just unwrap that belief. You start to, you kind of, you're like, you know, I figured it out myself. Like, I just don't get it. And it took me a bit to really like kind of lock in on, oh, they're act like, like I had bad managers. Not all managers are bad. It took me a while to kind of make that transition. And the thing that really helped me out is, I mean, in addition to reading stuff like the Know Your Company blog, there's a really great podcast called Manager Tools that these— it's like two old, er, like West Point grads who worked at P&G for a long time who just kind of have this very like no-nonsense sort of like practical approach to management. Where most of the material out there stays so high level and it stays so fluffy that it's just kind of like, I can't do anything with this. This doesn't tell me what to do when someone walks into my office and they— well, walks into my virtual office in our case, but like someone gets on a call and they say, I want a raise right now. Or like they come in and say, so-and-so didn't treat me right. Or, you know, these kinds of tough situations that do happen in management. Hopefully you don't experience a lot of them, but the longer you manage, like you're going to have these situations pop up and you're not going to be prepared for these. So the thing that was so great about them was like, I started having more of these experiences and realizing like, I'm out of my depth to have these conversations. Like, I just don't know what to do. And my, my instincts are actually causing more problems. Like my instinct to do it this way or to solve this problem this way is actually creating other problems across the organization. I started listening to this podcast and they just have like these tips and tricks that are like, in your one-on-ones, ask this question. When someone says this thing, this is how you give feedback. Like when you have these situations, like literally down to these are the words you should use and how to say them. I was just like, oh my God, this is so helpful.

Yeah.

And I totally see the value and what good management is. It's not this sort of like weird thing that I picture I painted in my mind. It's this very tactical skill that people can, can learn. And so I think that, that was in my mind, that's kind of my journey and why it was tough for me.

Yeah.

To just accept, oh, management is the thing that's important and I should learn as someone who's running a company out the gate. It took me making a few mistakes to get around and figure out like, oh, this is a skill I have to work at, just like any other skill you might have to develop in running a company.

Absolutely. Well, I think it's fascinating how much our past experience with a leader, or good and bad, colors how we choose to lead, or if we feel like, uh, if we feel like we don't want to lead at all, or, you know, and disregard management. And I can completely relate to this idea of— I mean, I had a terrible, terrible manager when I— after I started my first company coming out of college. And it's easy to think, like, is this a thing that, like, people should even be doing? So I love, um, I love the ability to sort of reflect and to see that. And then the second thing that you mentioned, Wade, that I thought was fascinating is you said that a lot of your instincts around how to do things in the company actually were not helpful. And it took you to sort of listen to this no nonsense approach and to hear really tactical advice about how to address that. Tell me a little bit more about that. Like, is there a specific situation? 'Cause I feel like this happens all the time. Like, I noticed this in myself and, you know, with all the research that I'm doing is a lot of our initial instincts for how we think we are helping our team actually hurt.

Yeah.

Talk to me about how you've experienced that.

Sure, I'll give you a very tactical thing that I think certainly myself and a lot of first-time managers make the mistake of. And it comes back to the very first thing I said, which is knowing the answers. Like you, someone comes to you and says, I have a problem. And you're like, I'm the manager, I'm the boss. My job is to solve the problem. So you jump in and solve the problem. But when you do that, you're actually mistaking your roles. Like, you've hired this person to solve problems, and if they're unable to solve the problem, you've probably hired the wrong person. Now, that doesn't mean that people that come to you should have to solve problems all the time, but when they come to you with problems, it's not your job to step in and fix the things that they can't do. You're missing out on an opportunity to help them level up and be better. But your instinct when you're a manager is the first time someone comes to you with a problem is to be like, this is it. This is my spot. This is why I'm here. I'm going to jump in and solve the problem. But that's the exact opposite thing that you should do. Yeah. Now all of a sudden everyone in your organization, you become a crutch for them. Like you're the person there that solves all the problems. The bigger your company gets, you're this massive bottleneck because no decisions can be made. No problems can be solved without it routing through you. Which, I mean, I'm sure there's some people out there that would like that as the way they run their company, but that's certainly not me. I do not want all decisions to run through me and problems to be solved through me. And so it took me a while to realize, okay, when folks come to me with a problem, I need to respond to that in a more sort of like Socratic method way. Like, I need to ask questions back, right? I'm like, okay, what have you tried? Well, what are your instincts for the next steps? What do you think is the next place you should go? Like, ask more of these sort of probing questions to see if they can kind of come to that understanding on their own. Because a lot of times what people are— when people have problems, they actually know the answer, but they don't like the answer, or they're uncomfortable with the answer in some way. Yeah. And so you're trying to just help them get to that realization that, like, you know what to do. Just go do it. And it's not, it's not going to be scary as scary as you think it is.

Absolutely. I think it's in so many ways so in line with what the definition of a manager is to begin with, which is it's not to actually make the decisions, but it's to create an environment for people to do their best work and to make the decisions themselves. And I mean, that's where the leverage comes from in leadership is that you're not the one doing and executing all the things. You're helping other people do that. And it's so easy to lose sight of.

So easy.

Yeah. Well, so Wade, I have like a million questions for you, but I'll pick just a last few here. As a remote leader in particular of a, you know, 200+ growing, rapidly growing company, and I'm sure you get questions like this all the time, but I know for our audience in particular, they would love to hear, How, how does one's leadership style have to adjust, if at all, in your opinion, to running a remote company versus in person? And it's interesting, I actually wrote a piece on this maybe a year or two ago and actually quoted some of the things that you had talked about, and it got a ton of traction and, you know, was widely spread because people are fascinated about this topic. It's like, if I become— if I join a remote company and I'm a new manager, more, I, you know, I got hired as a CEO of a company that's now starting to become remote. Are there, are there things you feel like you have to do differently or double down on or focus more in your experience?

I think the more I do this, I think sort of like the core psychology of management is the same no matter what, if you're in an office or if you're remote, like the principles still apply. You're still trying to empower people to solve problems. You're still there to provide feedback. You're still there trying to help the organization hit its goals. Like all those things are the same. Yeah. Like there's just no differences. Yep. The places where there's differences are just smaller, sort of like tactical things. Like, you know, how you run your meetings might be a little different because you're not sitting in a conference room and instead you're jumping on Zoom or something like that. You know, maybe you're giving feedback over Slack more so than in person. And so you have to create a culture that's maybe a little more open to written feedback versus verbal feedback.

Right.

Whereas a lot of the management sort of act like stuff says, oh, you should deliver feedback face to face. It's better to do that. But in a remote company like that actually can be a little more awkward at times. If you're like, hey, can you jump on Zoom real quick? Yeah. It's like, oh shoot. Yeah. What's going on here?

Totally.

Versus saying like, you know, in Slack, the informal thing to do in a remote company is to send a quick DM and just say like, hey, heads up, I noticed this thing, maybe try doing it this way next time. And sending that in Slack is actually the more informal, like, comforting place to do that. And so there's just kind of some of these smaller tactical things that are different in a remote company, and you kind of have to You kind of have to just live some of this stuff to, to figure out like what those tweaks are. But as long as you kind of remember the core principles of what makes a good manager, like you're going to be able to do well in a remote company or an in-office company because the skill set is still more or less the same.

Absolutely. Yeah, I completely agree. I think like you were saying, at its core, leadership is about communication and creating the right environment for people and being supportive, all that good stuff. I think it's fascinating in talking to so many remote CEOs and managers, just how the emphasis, to your point, is shifted. So this idea of paying attention to nonverbal cues as a manager is a lot harder to do. Paying attention to the sort of morale level is a lot harder to sort of get the, get the sense of when someone is bothered by a certain situation. Are there things that you feel like at Zapier you've tried to, whether it's in the culture that you create or even some tactical things to compensate for the fact that you might not always be picking up on nonverbal cues or like you were saying, like a lot of the feedback and communication is going to be written versus face to face.

Yeah, I think this is probably the hardest difference between being in an office and being remote. And when you're in an office, like you as a manager can see when someone's like shoulders are down and when they're like disengaged in a conversation or they're, you know, like you can see when they're kind of checked out. It's harder to pick up on that in a remote environment. So you have to be just extra observant. You have to read the tea leaves a little bit more and be willing to just ask the conversation. And I think, you know, kind of be open to being wrong about it. Like there's times where I've said someone like, hey, I noticed, you know, you put this message in Slack. I just wanted to ask like, hey, is everything going all right? And they're like, oh no, it's fine. No, no big deal. Okay, sorry, I just misread that. Not a big deal. Um, and like, you have to be willing to ask the question because otherwise you might actually literally have situations that are kind of like boiling under the surface across your organization.

Absolutely.

And because you're not in person and it's hard for people to realize that there's some sort of tension or this team isn't collaborating in a good way, that can linger for longer. And the longer that stuff lingers, like, the more toxic the organization sort of becomes. And so you have to be willing to just, as soon as you notice like a thing that feels weird or feels off in some way, you just have to ask the question and just be like, hey, I noticed this, you know, and I just wanted to see like, is everything okay? Or I wanted to just check in and, you know, see if there's anything I can help with. Or, you know, just be willing to ask those conversations and, and be okay with being like wrong on some of that stuff. If someone says, no, it's all fine, like, you know, I accidentally, you know, my cat accidentally 'hit this key' or whatever. Sure.

Well, no, I think that's a— I think here's the thing. I know that, you know, we're laughing about it, but what an important point though about this willingness to be wrong. And this is sort of a theme that, you know, we've had in this conversation, but a willingness to say, 'Oh, I misread that,' or, 'Oh, you know, okay, never mind,' like, not a big deal.

And I know, like, I occasionally will freak the team out because my communication style is short and direct. I don't flower up my messages in Slack often, and when I'm on mobile, especially, that's the case. Like, so if you ask me, "Hey, do you think we should do this?" I might just say, "No." And people are like, "Wait, what?" It's like, well, I'm out and about with my wife, or I'm in a meeting, and like, it felt like this was an urgent thing, and so I wanted to get you my opinion sooner. Like, that's where I'm coming from. I'm not saying like, you asked a dumb question or like, this is crazy by just having a one-word, you know, answer. Like you're reading more into it than is there. And so I actually have to, when I onboard people into the team, like I have a whole guide for like, here's how my communication style is. Here's how to understand when I say certain things, like how to react to that sort of stuff, just to get people comfortable with it. And then of course I try and adapt to like, if there's times where I catch myself doing, you know, with nothing else and I start to think, You know, I can probably give a better answer than this one-word answer here. Definitely.

Definitely. Well, I think, you know, a remote environment and being, uh, yeah, being sort of heavily text-based, we talked about some of the negative consequences. I also find that, uh, the sort of physical separation, especially for high-pressure situations or high sort of emotion-running situations, can be extremely helpful. So if I'm having an argument with a team member or I strongly disagree about something or I'm offended by something that someone said. It's actually extremely helpful that we are not in person in the same room having the conversation, that it's, you know, over Basecamp, and I can have a moment to think about, okay, well, what's really— how do I really want to respond? Or let me reflect on, on the conversation. So I think the, the space, it's as with anything, positives.

And yeah, there's pros and cons. I was talking to another fellow CEO, and someone— it was in a group setting— and so someone had posed the question like, what's the toughest part of your job? And for them, like, they had a glass conference room, and for them just being kind of under the lens was like a very difficult thing for them.

Yeah.

And so they were like, I have to really watch how I react to certain situations, like, because the team can see me. Like, the way it was set up in the office was like a very visible spot in the office, and it was a glass conference room, so you can literally see right through what's going on and stuff like that. So there's like a board meeting or I don't know, right, something crazy. And I kind of was like, Oh my God, like I have never experienced that phenomenon. Like, yeah, you know, if you and I were to get off this call and I was like, sheesh, Claire just doesn't get it. Like, I can react with whatever face you can do that. Yeah, it was like that. I, that I feel like, and the thing is like sometimes you need that healthy way to blow off steam. Like my gut reaction might be Claire just doesn't get it. And then I'll go walk the dog and I'll be like, you know what, actually I don't get, like, there's a thing that I don't get here. And like, I need to clarify that with Claire. Like, we need to talk through that piece of it. So you can kind of have your moment to just be human for a second. Yes. In a remote company, a little easier. So that's certainly in my case, I think that's a pro.

I, yeah, I completely agree. And I think it's been my saving grace on, on many occasions. To just have a knee-jerk, knee-jerk reaction that we're all susceptible to. Uh, Wade, um, one last thing I want to ask before we head out here. I want to actually circle back to the very, very beginning of our conversation because your reaction to this question of what's one thing you wish, uh, you would have learned earlier, you said, you know, can I say everything? And so I know we touched on a lot of different aspects, but I guess for, you know, for our audience here, is there anything else in particular that you're like, I just like, don't, you know, don't make the mistake that I did. And like, I really wish I would have, you know, known about this as a manager.

So I think the other thing that took me a while to get comfortable with is just how to give feedback and like really what makes good feedback. I think, you know, I'm naturally a people pleaser. Like, I want people to be happy. And for other folks who are people pleasers, they probably have experienced this moment where they're like, Oh my goodness, I have to give feedback that is not going to make this person happy. And that's a tough thing to cross. And so, you know, there's a lot of books and a lot of people have talked about this, the, you know, Crucial Conversations and Radical Candor and all this sort of stuff, like talk about— I mean, there's, you know, 300-page books for what's a relatively simple concept, I think. And for me, That was another thing I really just had to get better at out the gate. And I think the realization for me that made it stick was if you care about this person, like truly care, not sort of like fake superficial, like, well, they're my employees, so I'm supposed to care, but like you really genuinely do care about this person. And if you understand what their ambitions are, what their dreams are, what their goals are, if you notice something that you think would help them achieve those things and you hold that back, like, that's actually not a very nice thing to do. Absolutely. And so I think that was kind of the thing, like, getting that to click for me took a while, but once it did, it just made it easier for me when I'm talking to this person. It's like, they know that I care about them. They know that I'm in their camp. So when I share something that's maybe a little tougher, like, they're not gonna freak out. And it just made it easier for me. The reality too was most of it was me getting like, hmm, tied up. The person on the other side— not always, but the person on the other side, after hearing it, and especially if you give feedback in the right way, after hearing it, they're thankful and grateful more times than not. There is a separate set of management where sometimes you have to deal with a person who's never got feedback in their life, and it's just like, that's a whole, that's a whole other thing to deal with. Most folks are very accepting and appreciative of direct sort of caring feedback.

I think, I mean, we could spend hours just talking about this one, one, you know, subject. And it's, I mean, it's the thing that, you know, we run like 4-hour workshops on it, to your point, because it's actually a really, it's a really tricky thing to become good at. And hey, I even do this for a living, and there are situations where I'm like I'm going to have to really think about how I, how I frame this. Because I think also one thing that we don't often talk about is who the feedback is coming from. I mean, Wade, you are the CEO. And I think when you become a new manager, you become a new leader, you forget how much your word does weigh on a person. And you can overcompensate for that too. You can think, oh gosh, because, you know, oh, this person's going to take my words so seriously. So I have to be so careful. And so, and To your point, what really is the sort of overlying factor of what trumps everything else is just the intention behind it. And the reason why people even get defensive to feedback is because they misread the intention. They think you're out to get them. They think you're making a personal attack. They think that you think less of them as a human being. And the minute that you can actually establish what that intention is, Everything else sort of falls into, into place.

Totally. Yeah, I'm thinking about like, like the words do matter on the feedback you give. You have to think deeply about what the messages you want to share. My co-founder Brian was just writing on this topic for the team around a specific set of feedback. One of the things we're trying to do is get like, we're just trying to be faster in our go-to-market and faster in how we respond to our customers. I think a lot of orgs are trying to just is generally be faster. So oftentimes, you know, as an exec or a leader, your feedback might default to, you know, "Hey, I wish you were faster." It's a very common piece of feedback. And the nuance that Brian kind of observed, which I think is an important one, is that when the feedback is delivered as "I need you to be faster," oftentimes what's heard is "You're going slow," or "I think you are slow at your job." And his kind of, what he would posit was, well, actually that's not the message I'm trying to deliver. Typically what I'm saying is you need to focus on a particular set of work better. So it's like, you're actually spending time on a set of work that doesn't matter. And maybe you need to open it up to like, you need to spend more time on this thing that does matter. And so time by the wall clock actually ends up going faster because you've cut out this set of work. And so anyway, that's a long-winded way of giving an example of the feedback that you deliver matters because people are going to hear it in a specific way. So I do think it's important to think thoughtfully to, as a leader and as an executive, what is the message you want to be heard? Absolutely. And so you do, you should think about, okay, what is the behavior I want this person to do? Like, do I want them to rush through work? Like, if I say I want you to be faster, they might actually hear that and say, oh, I just need to rush through this work faster. Maybe that's what you want, and so maybe you do deliver that feedback. Or is the behavior you want them to focus more intently on this side of work? And this way you say, hey, I want you to get better at prioritizing your time. And that's a different conversation than speed, but the results that you get out of it as a leader is actually speed. So I think thinking through some of that as you give feedback is really important. And anyway, yeah, like I said, we could have an hours-long conversation on how to give feedback It's a hard one.

Absolutely. But I think this amazing takeaway that I really hope that folks who are tuning in hone in on is this idea of zooming in on the desired outcome instead of just describing the symptoms of what you think is wrong and giving feedback about the symptoms. It's, oh, I don't, I think you're fast. Or I think, you know, we're, I even think sometimes like saying feedback like, oh, you're not, you know, we're focusing, you know, on the wrong things. And then it's like, oh, I have to reprioritize everything. It's like, no, It's like just spend more, it's like even more specific about the desired outcome, right? It's like actually just spend more time on these things and maybe the desired outcome, right? Like you were saying is you just, you are quicker and don't care about, you know, making as many mistakes and you know, you can cut corners here. Like that's totally fine.

Or to your point, it's just very much about cutting things out, which is, it could be as simple as like pop up with a calendar and say this meeting, you're going to this 90-minute meeting every week. Are you getting value out of it? Oh, I'm not. Okay, great. Now you have 90 minutes freed up to do something else. And like, it could be as small as something like that, um, that actually gives you a lot of time back to go try and do a thing. Like, 90 minutes is plenty of time to do many tasks. And so all of a sudden you might give the perception of being faster because you freed up 90 minutes in your day to focus on a task.

Yeah. And that action is very different depending on the message that you are delivering. It's very— you might not get that same outcome if you were to just say, go faster, be faster.

Yeah.

No, this is an amazing reflection actually for myself and, you know, my own work. And I know for all the other managers and leaders who are tuning in, they appreciate it as well. So Wade, thank you so much for joining us. It's been awesome.

Yeah, it was a pleasure, Claire. Thanks for having me.

Cool.