How Glyphosate Is Damaging Your Health, with Prof. Michael Antoniou

Glyphosate herbicides are very toxic, and for me, they're deceptively toxic. In that over time their effects will be felt. You can go down with fatty liver with different cancers, neurological problems, reproductive problems.

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Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Feel Freaking Amazing podcast. We have an amazing guest today, so I love him to pieces. Ed's about to fall in love and I'm sure all of you guys are going to be excited too. So today we have Professor Dr. Michael Antonio. He is professor of molecular genetics and Toxicology, who's also the head of the Gene Expression and Therapy group, Department of Medical and Molecular Genics, Faculty of Life Sciences and Medicine, King's College London in the uk. He's an expert in virtually all types of genetic engineering technologies, their biotechnical application, and it's all within a medical context. For the last 11 years, he's undertaken research in the field of molecular and cellular toxicology research with a focus on pesticides, leading research in glyph, glyphosate toxicology. And that's how we met, because he was kind enough, as an aside, to take time out of his day and explain exactly what's going on with glyphosate. And then I said, I really want you to talk to all the people who listen to our podcast. And he was then gracious enough to come on. So, Michael, welcome. So happy to have you here.

Absolutely delighted to join you today, Wendy. So thank you for the invitation.

Yeah.

So what did you find?

Well, yeah, what'd you find? Like, what did you. Why is it so bad?

Our first study found that even an incredibly low dose of this roundup herbicide caused fatty liver disease in the animals. That was our first observation. Now, I don't know if many people actually, it's possible that many of your listeners will be familiar with fatty liver disease. Why is that? Because actually, 25% of the U.S. population suffer from what is known as non alcoholic fatty liver disease.

On the rise. It's on the rise too, and it's.

Probably even on the rise. And by the way, it's the same in Europe. You know, the USA is not unique in this Regard.

We're just the leaders.

Yeah, you could say you're the leaders. But the point about non alcoholic fatty liver diseases, it, it's a progressive disease, it can start fairly mild, but it can get worse and worse to a condition known as non alcoholic sterotohepatitis and further progress to outright liver damage or cirrhosis. Now all of these things are also predisposing somebody to liver cancer. So our early studies, and that was the first one in 2015 and then another one in 2017, which I feel really nailed it, that an incredibly low dose of Roundup herbicide can cause non alcoholic fatty liver disease and all of its complications. And we've been able to confirm that in more recent animal studies as well. And so I feel what we uncovered early on was yet another unsuspected risk factor for non alcoholic fatty liver disease, which is exposure to glyphosate based herbicides. And so something that needs to be taken very seriously because we've got a global epidemic really in this condition. And nobody is realizing just yeah, there are. People recognize that there are like dietary factors that can contribute to it, but people are ignoring chemical pollutant, you know, exposure that can contribute to it as well. And I think, you know, I would say that Roundup is definitely glyphosate based herbicides, including Roundup are definitely non alcoholic fatty liver disease inducers. You know, pre, predispose you to or induce it literally, they, they can give rise to it.

Now for our listeners. Again just to I want to make sure everybody, because I'm just shocked. In this style like that people understand that okay, it's in the soil, but then when you eat it, it's going down. Your. How often in this podcast do we talk about the microbiome and how important it is? It's killing your whole microbiome.

It kills the good guys actually. Right. Didn't we talk about that? The salmonella and some of the more harmful bact bacteria, they don't have this pathway. So they are just merrily going on their way. But the, the protective bacteria have the shikimate pathway and the, the renegades do not have that pathway. Did I remember that properly?

Something along those lines? Very important pathway. That's the way it kills the plants. Because the shikimate pathway produces these essential, what we call aromatic amino acids. And when the plant can't make them, it literally just dies very, very quickly because it can't make its proteins anymore. What we actually found was in our animal studies is two to three, I would say Three very worrying findings from exposure to glyphosate and the Roundup that we gave our laboratory animals. Firstly, we proved beyond doubt that glyphosate and roundup definitely inhibit the shikimate pathway in gut bacteria. You know, we, it was in fact the most dramatic metabolic change we saw in the gut of these animals. And in addition to that, that was, that was in a way even more worrying is that it changed the biochemistry of the gut as well. So although we didn't see dramatic changes in the population of the bacteria in the gut, their function, their biochemical activity was changed. And we saw evidence, clear evidence of what we call oxidative stress. Okay, and oxidative stress is a bad thing. You don't want that anywhere in your body really, because oxidative stress, which is what is reactive oxygen, it's oxygen that is reactive and can damage, and it will damage anything in your body, including your DNA. And that's why it's particularly worrying because if it damages your DNA, that is a major risk factor for cancer. So we saw major evidence of oxidative stress induced by glyphosate and Roundup in the gut of these exposed animals. And there was oxidative stress in their blood, there was oxidative stress in their liver, there was DNA damage in their liver. There was, you know, we got the confirmation of fatty liver in the liver. So it was, it was all, everything was connected in, in a major negative effect with which could have been induced by this oxidative stress that we saw in a follow up investigation. And this was in a way a crucial difference in our first experiments that I just described to you. The exposure to the glyphosate in the Roundup was started with the animals. These were rats at young adulthood. They were about five, six weeks of age, obviously very healthy adult animals. And we saw nevertheless, we saw these negative effects on the gut and in the liver of these animals and also in the kidney, by the way. And then, but in a follow up study we, we started the exposure to the glyphosate in the Roundup in mid pregnancy, which is real, right?

I mean that's when humans get exposed.

Which is much more real. And that's why we did it. Absolutely. And that's why we, we, we want, we got involved with that study which was part of what's known as the global glyphosate study being led by the Ramazini Institute in Italy. So we, we took the, like the, the, again, we analyzed the gut microbiome in the, in the Offspring that were born. So we didn't analyze the gut microbiome in the mothers. We were interested to see what effect it will have on the young, you know, on the offspring. So after they had been exposed, starting with pregnancy, and then we follow, and then we analyze the animals after 90 days, after weaning, after they'd stopped suckling, and we saw far more dramatic disturbances in the gut population in these animals, showing that actually exposure starting prenatally has far more. In other words, reflecting a more real world scenario, has far more dramatic impacts on the gut microbiome population. We weren't able to do any biochemical analysis, but we saw major shifts in the population of bacteria. Overall. The complexity of the bacterial population was reduced, whereas the fungal population was dramatically increased.

I think we need to pause there. We gotta pause there, Michael, because we have to underscore that the gut, the body, nature loves diversity and loves abundance and loves a wide range of options. So when you're talking about narrowing the diversity in the gut and raising the fungal population, that's not good for us, just for the record. It's not good.

That's an understatement. Yes.

No, no, it's not good because it creates a niche. You could say it creates a niche. If the bacterial population is decreasing, it's, it's creating like a gap in, in the, in the environment. Right.

Nature hates a vacuum.

And, and it turns out that it's the fungi that then start growing to fill in that, that gap. And this is not good, obviously, because there are some fungi we know are actually very pathogenic. They will cause diseases. And so the worrying thing here is, of course, is that you, you could end up with a fungal infection because the glyphosate has created an environment for it to expand, to establish and grow. So it was a very, very, again, a very insightful observation that we made. And this happened with this, with the rats. This happened with both. We treated them with two types of Roundup. One which is very prevalently used in the United States, another one that's used a lot in Europe. And we saw the most profound effects with the round with the USA Roundup. I have to say, go big or go home.

Yeah, we do things well, apparently.

But I have a question just to go back to. When you were talking about the oxidative stress, are you using, when you say oxidative stress, is it appropriate to say free radical formation or is it different?

No, yes, it's along those lines. Absolutely. Yeah.

Okay, so similar, because when I talk to people about how the liver is getting rid of toxins, fat soluble toxins. Phase one, creating a free radical, going into phase two, binding inert, making it water soluble. And then phase three, pee, poop or sweat. I just want to make sure we're having the same language. So when you're saying that you see increased oxidative stress, that is the same thing essentially as free radicals and people, different types, I think they understand better that free radicals are also not in your favor pro cancer forming and toxic for you. So just want to draw that line.

Absolutely right. Yes, you're right. There it's, there's different types of free radicals. We don't know exactly which ones were elevated. We got a, we got the markers of elevated oxidative stress response and, which would have included different types of free radicals generation. And, and, and you're right, our bodies produce these entities naturally and because they, they can serve useful functions. But if, and we have mechanisms of neutralizing them as well to make sure they do not exceed safe thresholds. But what we're seeing here in the animals clearly is that the body's mechanisms of managing the free radical oxidative stress production is being exceeded and we're seeing damage as a result.

When you did these studies, were you able then to sort of close the loop with humans? Because you mentioned the rising increase of fungal infections. But, but do we see perturbations in your mood? Do we see weight gain? Like what do we see clinically for humans when, if we draw the line between rats and humans and say, okay, well, we respond pretty similarly. Could you, do you have any of that information that we.

No, I could only point to human epidemiological studies, which I'm glad to say, or proud to say that scientists I know in the United States have conducted some really excellent human epidemiological studies correlating, you know, they would measure the glyphosate levels in people's urine and then look at their health status and see if there's any correlations. I've been involved in, in one study that shows which actually there's been a couple of epidemiological studies that has linked glyphosate exposure. In other words, the more glyphosate was seen in the pregnant woman, the shorter was her gestation period. And this was particularly in women that were probably more prone to pregnancy complications. So that's not a good thing.

It's an amplifier. Right? Like you have your, you're going to do what you do, but then the glyphosate makes you Even more prone to doing what you're going to do.

Yeah, I think that's what probably what, what we're seeing there. But I would say there were, there are two epidemiological studies that, that published this year by American groups that really stand out for me in the context of oxidative stress. One of them is in the context of oxidative stress. So what, what these researchers did was they, they took farmers and measured their urine for oxidative stress markers before and after they had sprayed Roundup on their fields. So they knew, they went, they found the farmers that they knew were going to do some Roundup spraying. So they got a urine sample before the day they sprayed and then they got a urine sample the day after they sprayed. And they looked at these markers for oxidative stress. And there are very specific, very clear markers that if somebody is, their body is in a heightened oxidative stress state, the levels of these molecules in the urine will go up very clearly.

I have to ask, is it the same ones we look at like lipid peroxide and the hog or the DNA damage? I forgot the acronym.

Yeah, that they are actually, some of. There is an overlap there. That's absolutely right. So what they found was that the day off, you know, there was a certain level of these quite low before the day they sprayed Roundup, but after day after they dramatically increased. And included in those markers is the 8 hydroxy 2 guanosine. Yes.

Thank you.

Now, why is that particularly important? For me, this was the most key observation because 8 hydroxy 2 guanosine is not only a marker of oxidative stress, but it's a marker of DNA damage. So it's a double whammy. It shows you you've had a massive oxidative stress insult response to something, but at the same time it tells you that your DNA was damaged by that oxidative stress. So for me, this is the close without intentionally feeding somebody Roundup and monitoring them, which will be total unethical. Of course, this is the nearest we're going to get for me to directly measuring a response to Roundup exposure. And you have to bear in mind that is probably what they were absorbing through their skin as well. I mean, it's not like they were, they were breathing it in and it was being, you know, anything that landed on their skin, it was getting in. So there was elevated glyphosate along that these massive increases in oxidative stress markers, including markers of DNA damage. For me, this was a very, very well executed and very, very telling and worrying study.

Can we pause for a second, Michael? Because, you know, across the world, people are eating food that has been sprayed. The crops are sprayed with glyphosate. But you feel it's unethical to do a study on humans because you'd have to give them glyphosate. But they're getting. Not to be cynical, but they're. You could do a study with humans who don't think that organic is worth doing versus people who do prioritize organic just from a belief system. You're not asking them to do anything different. But you're. But. But the fact that the researcher feels it's unethical to give humans glyphosate to study it is very telling. I just want to pull that out.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, that's. I would agree with you. I mean, it's. For me, generally, you know, I mean, the whole idea of spraying poisons onto our food before we eat it is the most bizarre. I think it was Jane Goodall who very kindly provided us with a quote on our book, GMO Myths and Truths, which you may be aware of, I co authored with Claire Robinson and John Fagan. But I remember a wonderful quote from her where she said that people in the few. Something along the lines of that people in the future are going to look back at this time and wonder how we could possibly spray our food with poisons and then eat it. I mean, it was like, I thought it's just a simple expression, but so, so telling and. And goes deep. I would like to point to two other excellent epidemiological studies in the United States connected with the glyphosate and Roundup. The other one, again published earlier this year, was led by Brenda Ashkenazi and who's based, I believe, at UC Berkeley, but, you know, somewhere in California. And what they did, they looked at glyphosate exposure in. In young and. And how they then. And then their health status as they progressed on through life. They found a clear evidence that early exposure to glyphosate Roundup. These are people living in Central Valley, California. So they are swimming in pesticides, as you know, in that part of the country, is that it predisposed them then to liver inflammation and liver disease, fatty liver disease, later on in life. So again, we have epidemiological evidence that supports our animal study work here that glyphosate Roundup predisposes to fatty liver disease, including the inflammation which is part of it. Lastly, we mustn't forget the excellent work of Leanne shepherd, who's based, I think at University of Washington, Seattle is where she looked at the incidence of non Hodgkin lymphoma in relation to levels of exposure to Roundup use. Again, very clearly she found really strong correlation that the higher exposure group to roundup had a 41% increase likelihood of non Hodgkin lymphoma, very serious blood cancer. We've got for me, unequivocal laboratory studies, not just from, obviously I've talked about my own group's work, but there are many excellent studies from other groups. And then we have this very telling epidemiological work that clearly indicates that glyphosate herbicides are very toxic. And for me, they're deceptively toxic in that they may not be acutely toxic so much, but over time their effects will be felt. You can go down with fatty liver with different cancers or neurological problems, reproductive problems, it's difficult to then make the connection. And I think that's the way, perhaps that's the way industry gets away with this, because you cannot make a definitive connection. That's why you go with combinations. You've got the lab studies and you've got the epidemiology. You marry it together and you say on the weight of all of this, then I think I can make some fairly strong conclusions. The conclusions are that glyphosate herbicides are far more toxic than industry and regulators would have us believe.

Boom.

Crazy. I mean, the follow up is what, what can we do about it?

What's a girl to do?

And what can you do about it? Yeah, that's a good question.

And like to fight Monsanto is.

You can vote with your pocketbook, you know, Right. You buy organic, you prioritize local, you prioritize organic. But, but this is, this is our life's work, Ed.

Yeah, I think, you know, I think Wendy's right. I think our priority is to protect ourselves and our loved ones. And so we seek out the purest, freshest food locally grown from people we know, grown organically, people we can trust. And first and foremost, that's what we should do. And, and certainly avoid certain products that we buy in supermarkets that have scored the highest. Not just glyphosate, but pesticide residue levels across the board anyway. And that would be the cereals and the more the soft fruits, strawberries, blueberries and green leafies. Green leafy vegetables, because these are the most susceptible to attack. And so they're the ones that get hit, get Hit the most, but also chocolate. The most heavily sprayed food crop in the world is cocoa, believe it or not.

Okay, I didn't warn Ed that today was going to be like a Debbie Downer day.

Horrifying.

It's like, I can join the podcast. I said, great, we're talking to Michael. It's so, it's such a great conversation. And then he's like, okay, so, okay, so I think what we need to make sure people know because this conversation, I think scratches the surface. It's this entry into how do you protect yourself. So what we need to know for people is how can they learn more about you? How can they follow you? How can they follow your work? What's that access for people?

Well, obviously my work gets published in the scientific journals. They're going to be very technical, so you're unlikely to extract all the full impact of it by going there. But there is one NGO here in England that I act as a scientific advisor to and writes up reports on our work for the general population. And that's called GM watch. Gmwatch.org if you go to the gmwatch.org website, you will find it is a wealth of information about GMOs and their associated pesticides, including of course, everything about glyphosate and Roundup and the like.

So gmwatch.org is where people really need to follow.

Okay. Gmwatch.org is where you can find out more. And in the meantime, yes, just buy the best organic, fresh food you can in your local locality, support your local organic farmers that way. And, and that way we, we're doing the best we can for ourselves and our loved ones and, and spread the message, you know, that these are not good. These, these pesticide residues are not a good thing. And we, we've just, as you say, just scratched the surface because we are, you know, typically you'll be exposed to tens of different pesticides every day in your food supply.

Well, normally I like to be end on an up note, but I would say in this case we're going to end on a down note. So, Michael, for those of you who are listening, this is Professor Dr. Michael Antonio and he is a expert in glyphosate, GMO and the effects that it has on us. And so a, for the listeners, thanks for being with us for this time and Michael, thank you for spending the time educating us because this is, the goal is to get the word out. So thank you for being here and being on the podcast.

It's my pleasure. And it's. Yes, have me again. If you feel that it would be valuable, we'd love to continue our chat.

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