Live Longer by Activating Your Body's Anti-Aging Gene, with Dr. Bill Andrews

We're at least slowing down the rate of telomere shortening and therefore slowing down the rate of aging. That's a good thing.

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Hello and welcome to the Feel Freaking Amazing podcast. I'm Wendie Trubow, no Ed today. And today, we have Dr. Bill Andrews. I'm really psyched to have this conversation, actually. He is a scientist, athlete, and an executive. And he's a scientist who really focuses on scientific research and pushes the envelope and challenges convention. So, today, we're going to talk about telomeres, root causes of aging and how do you slow it down. Obviously, you don't want to prevent it, you want to just slow it down. So let me pause and just say, Bill, welcome. I'm really happy to have you on the podcast today.

Yes, and I'm curious, why did you say you don't want to prevent aging?

Because if you stop aging, you're dead. You know, Phil, just sort of a philosophical— like, you can slow it down, but you don't want to stop it. You just want to do it gracefully.

I'm, I'm actually extremely interested in stopping it and reversing it. Okay. To, to make us look, feel, and behave younger.

So I could get behind that.

Okay. Yeah. So yeah, you're right. I don't want, I don't want people to be unhealthy. So I'm, I'm, I'm interested in extending lifespan and healthspan. And I want us to all feel like we're 25 when we're 250 years old.

So can you talk about what are telomeres and what impact do they have on our life?

What if you zoom in on a human's body? Okay. It's, you can see the human body's made up of 100 trillion cells. That's what our body parts are. Inside of every cell is a nucleus. And inside the nucleus, there are chromosomes that have our genes that give us our hair color and eye color. And I want you to think of it like a shoelace. They're a long, long shoelace where things along the shoelace are genes that give you your eye color, hair color, things like that. At the caps of every shoelace are aglets that protect your chromosomes, or protect your, protect your shoelaces. Well, our chromosomes have the same thing at the caps. They're, they're made out of DNA and they're called telomeres and they protect the stability of our chromosomes. Now it turns out they do a lot more than that too. So every time, so, so The problem is that they shorten by a specific rate, whereas it's not so much wear and tear, but it's, it's like every time a cell divides, the new DNA that gets made is made a little shorter. So when you measure telomere length, you find out that every time a cell divides, the telomeres are shorter. And, but it also, the telomeres also regulate the genes that are on the chromosome. So So that's why we see changes with age in our wrinkled skin and things like that and hair color, stuff like that, is because of the changes that occur as a result of the telomeres turning on or off the genes. Every gene has a dimmer switch to it, okay? Where you can turn it on. That's, that's what epigenetics is all about. It's turning genes on and off and the telomeres actually control that.. And things like DNA methylation are like DNA methylation is also something that is correlated with gene expression. And that's, and it's a measure of aging that's controlled by the telomeres too. Okay. And so it's, it's telomeres have been identified as the kingpin of aging by Dr. Rhonda Pinto, who is the head of MD Anderson. He did work. It's just, they're very, very important thing. The most important thing that anybody can do to stay healthy is keep the telomeres long. The telomeres start getting shorter, you start getting unhealthy. When they get down to a certain range, you die. Okay? It's, and we know the math on it totally. I mean, you're, when you're first conceived as a single cell embryo, your telomeres are 15,000 bases. Bases are units of DNA, but there are 15,000 bases, essentially 100 ride tickets. Okay? You got 100 ride tickets, but then your cell divides, you have 2 cells. Each of those cells now have 99 ride tickets. Then next to division, all 4 cells have 98. When you're born, finally born, you only have 50 ride tickets left. Okay? And that's because of all the cell division just going from a single cell embryo to a newborn baby.. And then for, even though you, you're born now, you're still growing, you're still healing your wounds, you're still fighting immune infections, things like that with your immune system. So there's a lot of cell division still going on. And you're also experiencing wear and tear in all your organs and tissues, which is causing more cell division to replace those worn and torn cells. And when your telomeres get down to 5,000 bases, that's essentially zero ride tickets left. Your cells lose the ability to function. They go into a phase called senescence and you die of old age. And that's a hardcore stop that nothing else can deal with. Every, every theory, every anything. And what I just mentioned is not a theory. This is well known by anybody that works with human cells in Petri dishes or in the lab or anything like that. Any, any, any other theory on why we age, if people manipulate those to make it so that we can undo those causes of aging, aging will still not be cured unless we also solve the telomere shortening problem. Because the telomere shortening problem, if you have the perfect genetics and lead the perfect lifestyle, you have a rate of telomere shortening that cannot be reduced. It's called the basal level telomere shortening caused by the end replication problem. That's gonna limit your lifespan to 125. Nowhere. No, you can't live longer than that.

Years, right? 125 years.

125 years. Nobody has lived that long because nobody has the perfect lifestyle and nobody has at least the, has the perfect genetics. And so we are doing things that actually accelerate the rate of the telomere shortening.

Right? So it's, let's just pause here for a second. So it's, you have your in predetermined number of cycles, but you could make that faster based on your lifestyle, your toxic exposure, your stressors, your food, your sleep, your lack of it, whatever. So, you've only been able to accelerate the rate of telomere shortening. And now, what I hear you saying is you've discovered something that can actually enhance telomere lengthening. Did I hear you properly?

Yes. Well, enhance is the wrong word because at the moment we have no ability to lengthen at all. Okay. And that's only in our reproductive cells can we lengthen our telomeres. And that's so that our children are born with longer telomeres than we have. And we discovered the enzyme human telomerase that lengthens telomeres. So, so if, if if, as I said, every time a cell divides, telomeres get a little shorter. But if that was true in our primordial germ cells, which are reproductive cells that produce the sperm and the eggs, if the telomeres shorten in those cells, our children will be born with shorter telomeres. And we have— their children will be born with shorter telomeres. And they have— and we would've been extinct as a species 300,000 years ago. So our reproductive cells have that, but it's shut off in every other cell of our body. And for a good reason, that is not for good reason for the individuals in the species, it's good for the species as a whole because by eliminating the longer-lived after you have raised your young, you increase the chances of the offspring interbreeding as opposed to the parents re-breeding. And by letting the offspring interbreed increases the diversity within our species. And the more diversity there is in the species, the more likely some members of the species will survive rapidly changing environments. So through evolution, it's always been found that any species that accidentally evolved a way of eliminating the longer-lived was more likely to not go extinct. And so now there's very few animals on the planet that don't have an aging process now. Uh, and there's a lot of microcellular organisms, but in— so, so the category of all animals that have sexual reproduction, that's where genes are being shuffled. Okay. In those cases, 90, 95% of all species have now developed an aging process through evolution. There's a few that haven't yet, like lobsters and humpback whales and tortoises, but they will eventually because in order for them to survive future rapidly changing environments, they're gonna have to have increased diversity within the species.

So in telomerase, you found in the lab that it slows, it slows or halts the rate of shortening of the telomeres. And if you give this to people in real life, does it raise the chance of out-of-control growth or any type of, of cancer-related issue because you're, you're no longer inhibiting the growth, or does it not translate into that?

Telomere shortening and lengthening in our cells is like a tug of war. You've got lengthening, shortening, lengthening, shortening. And so it's a tie in our reproductive cells. That's what— telomeres never get shorter. And all the other cells of our body, we only have shorteners. So we are constantly shortening. And, uh, um, When we discovered telomerase and we put it into human skin cells in a Petri dish, we actually found that it made the telomeres longer. Okay. Which is, that's what we didn't expect to happen. So it was actually now made us ask the question, did we reverse aging? And we did by every method of measurement that you could imagine for at least human cells in a Petri dish. And I can come back to that later. But on the subject of cancer, I was National Inventor of the Year for my cancer research in 1997. I do know a lot about cancer. I've invented a lot of cancer drugs that have been through clinical studies. They're in some available now and stuff like that. But cancer is outta control growth, as you said. That's what cancer is. Lengthening telomeres does not make cells become, have outta control growth. It just gives them more opportunities to divide when they need to. It gives them more ride tickets., but it doesn't make them go on the rides. Okay? So, so, and in fact, what we found was that it actually decreased the rate of cells becoming cancer. Okay? So, so there's rumors that circulated a long time ago. There's a really good video of me speaking in Tokyo of 2017 where I address this issue and pretty much prove that, that lengthening telomeres and inducing, inducing Telomerase production and lengthening telomeres does not cause cancer, decreases the risk of cancer. And, but that's because when telomeres get really critically short, they start inducing skyrocketing mutation rates. And the mutations are what causes cancer. And the mutations are also what makes it so that when you treat cancers, the cancers figure out ways to survive even in the presence of the treatment, all by new mutations occurring. Now, when you keep telomeres long, you decrease that mutation rate that causes cancer. But if you keep telomeres long in all your cells, especially your immune cells, you keep your immune system strong fighting cancers. And our immune systems are, are number one best defense against cancer. The problem is that when our telomeres start getting short, we, we get, go into a phase called immune senescence and our immune system gets weak. And that's one of the main reasons besides the critically short telomeres causing mutations. Those are the two main reasons why cancer is so much more prevalent in the longer lived. So, so my mission for the last like 25+ years, maybe 30 years, has been to try to figure out how to provide telomerase to all the cells of our body so that we could then lengthen the telomeres and then ask the question, did it make us younger? Did it make us healthier and everything in every way imaginable? Uh, now, so the first approaches that we used 30 years ago was something called gene therapy, where we took the gene and hooked it up to a virus. And then infected cells with that virus, which delivered the gene to the cells in a— where the dimmer switch was turned on permanently in these genes, and it produced telomerase in the cells. So we did that. We showed that we could stop and reverse aging in human cells in a Petri dish. But then we also showed that we could— we took human skin, grew it on the back of a mouse, and then did the same thing to that human skin and saw aging reversed in every way imaginable by every biomarker you could measure. Aging was reversed. Then Dr. Ron DePinho, who was, he was the head of MD Anderson. He, he did, he, he engineered some mice cuz mice, rodents don't age by telomere shortening. There's, as I said, ever since sexual reproduction, aging has evolved, but it's so recent that every organism, almost every species has evolved a different way of eliminating what I call the longer-lived. Okay, after you've raised your young. And so the only animals that have actually evolved telomere shortening as a way of eliminating the longer-lived are humans, non-human primates, dogs, cats, horses, sheep, pig, and deer. Every other animal, it uses different mechanism, including mice. But Dr. Rhonda Pennell engineered some mice. He created a new mouse strain that actually did age by telomere shortening. And this colony was amazing because it started showing all the same aging characteristics as humans did. Okay. So he would breed these and get this mice colony one generation after another. And then he engineered 'em so that they would produce telomeres by gene therapy. And so he let the telomeres get really short in these mice. They looked really old. They suffering from dementia, all, everything you could imagine. He lengthened the telomeres and they became younger in every way imaginable.

And reversed, like, reversed the dementia.

Yes. Well, that was, that was the big surprising thing, because how do you reverse loss of memory? Okay. And Diane Sawyer actually did a big documentary on this with Dr. Rhonda Pinnell, because this was, like, pretty unexpected. Dementia got reversed. And so now, even when I go to speak at medical conferences on dementia, including Alzheimer's. Everybody now is convinced that, uh, dementias including Alzheimer's are not the loss of memory. There's just loss of access to the memory. The memory is still there in your brain. Lengthening the telomeres is reestablishing that connection. Okay. And so, so I have a clinical study that I'm trying to get underway. It's just too expensive to do, uh, that is where we are treating patients with gene therapy to see if we can bring their memories back that have already have Alzheimer's. It's just that it costs me $1 million to treat one patient once, and that's been the real struggle. But we're working, I'm working with other companies and things like that on trying to find cheaper ways to do the gene therapy. Gene therapies are not the safest, safest things in the world. In fact, there's a lot of therapies now using gene therapy, and a kid just died just about a week ago from gene therapy. And, but so it's, it's, it's a hit or miss. Some people are not gonna— it's not gonna work on some people. But we're also— my main effort is to find a pill that you can take. As I said, our reproductive cells produce telomerase to keep the telomeres long. If they have the gene for telomerase, all of our cells have the gene. The gene is just shut off, as I said before, as human's way of eliminating longer-lived. So what I am trying to do is I'm trying to find natural products, mostly, uh, plant extracts, stuff like that, that will get into the cell, dislodge the repressor protein. So the dimmer switch is turned off by a repressor protein binding to it and shutting that dimmer switch off. That would shut the gene off so it doesn't produce telomeres. We're looking for anything that will bind to that repressor and dislodge it. So we have these million-dollar high-throughput robots here that can test up to like 4,000 different nutraceuticals, plant extracts a day. And we've been testing all kinds of fractions of all different types of plants. We've tested close to 20,000 different plants now. There's 3 million out there to test. So we got a long ways to go, but we have discovered quite a few. So out of the 20-plus thousand that we've tested, we have found about 40 or 50 different plant extracts that when added to human cells actually induce those cells to start producing telomerase. Now here's the caveat. I was talking about the tug of war. You know, I've got the shortening and lengthening, shortening and lengthening. You know, all of our skin cells, every other cell of our body, there's only the shorteners. Well, the nutraceuticals is adding a person to the side to pull, but not enough to win the tug of war. So we are not reversing aging overall yet. So we have discovered nutraceuticals that will at least slow down the aging process. Now that said, we also have done, we found out that when telomeres get critically short, They're easier to lengthen. So we are hoping right now, we haven't tested this yet. We're hoping that when the, uh, telomeres get critically short, the, the amount of telomerase that our nutraceuticals are producing will lengthen those. And what we are seeing anecdotally is that that might be true because we're seeing a lot of people that do have critically short telomeres seeing some age reversal. We don't have that documented in science yet, just anecdotal. But regardless of that, the simple fact that we're at least slowing down the rate of telomere shortening, therefore slowing down the rate of aging. We're not winning the tug of war, but we're sure slowing down the shortening caused by tug of war. That's a good thing. Okay. And so we combined, we licensed our 5 top nutraceutical plant extracts to a company called Touchstone Essentials. And they have marketed this product called TLO Vital. It's actually, in my opinion, this is the best thing that any person could be doing to slow down at least their aging process and possibly reverse some things.

So what's in it?

It's got 5 different plant extracts. The key one, the most potent one, is turmeric without curcumin in it. Okay, curcumin. So when I say we're doing plant fractions of plant extracts, we tested a lot of turmeric fractions and we found some worked and some didn't. Then it turned out the ones that worked were the ones that were missing curcumin. Curcumin is also published to be an inhibitor of telomerase. So that's why it wasn't working when you take the entire turmeric. Turmeric. But so that's the most active ingredient that we've ever discovered is turmeric that is missing curcumin. It's also got, yes, it's got 4 other ones that are less known.

So these ingredients activate telomerase to start working on lengthening the telomeres. Yes. Okay. And is there anyone who shouldn't take this?

No, not that I'm aware of. There are people who have said that, well, if I have cancer, should I not take this? And I say no, because I can't really— I can't give medical advice. But let's just— instead of talking about Telovital, let's just talk about telomeres for a second. If I had cancer, I'd be doing everything possible to lengthen my telomeres. Okay. And some people have said, well, isn't that gonna make your cancer more healthy? I said, yeah, if you only give it to your cancer. But it's like having a battle between two armies, giving guns to only one side. Okay. So, but in this case, we're giving— we're lengthening telomeres in all our cells, most importantly, our immune cells. And as I said before, our immune system is our best defense against cancer. So we actually, so I think that if you, if I had cancer, I would be taking telomerase inducers to lengthen my telomeres to increase my ability to fight the cancer I already have.

So these are the 5 ingredients in the TeloVital are the things that you found to lengthen, or I'm sorry, to cause telomerase to be produced. Yes. Yes. Okay. And how— if someone starts taking it, how long until they start to see— will they start to see an impact in their day-to-day experience? And if so, how long?

They shouldn't. Okay. I mean, because this is really just slowing down the aging process. There's no real way to measure the slowing of aging. But because of the fact that a lot of people, especially over 50, have a lot of tissues in their body that do have critically short telomeres, they should hopefully be lengthening those critically short telomeres a little bit. That should give some, give them some age reversal and extend their lifespan and healthspan, especially for those particular tissues. But that's, it's a kind of a faith kind of thing. You have to understand the biology, the background behind aging and You have to listen to my videos on, like, what aging is, how we age, why we age, that kind of stuff to really understand how important this is.

So you got to do a deep dive to get it, or just listen to your podcast and find out that I sound like a credible person.

I know what I'm talking about. But yeah, but every company that claims to reverse aging, none of them really do.

So can the general population test the length of their telomeres to see how long or short they are? And is there, is there a standard, like it should be this long or longer at this age? And if it is, you're good. Is how, how does this work?

There, there are, I, I, I'm inventor or co-inventor of almost every method for measuring telomere lengths. Uh, the ones that are really accurate are way too expensive for, uh, personalized medicine. But, uh, uh, my favorite company for measuring telomeres is a company called Lifelength. MD in Spain where the technique they use is a little more accurate. It's not entirely fallible, but it, it measures the percent of telomeres that are critically short, which I think is the most important thing to be measuring. And then you can, people can take, can get their telomere lengths measured beforehand, go on a product such as Telovital. And then like 6 months to a year later, measure again and see that there's a difference. Okay. The, and in that case, you'd be looking at the critically short telomeres getting longer. Now, there is no product except for the gene therapies that I talked about before that can actually lengthen the telomeres. So if you take a product and you go get your telomeres length measured and They tell you that your telomeres got longer. It's actually not true. Okay? They, they didn't get lengthened. And, and there's YouTube videos where I explain the science behind it. Why, why products can make it look like, actually, and they only measure blood. Okay. Or saliva too. But the blood telomeres can, like if you have a before and after, the after can be longer. But not because they got lengthened. Okay, if the product that you're taking is like a toxin at all, it will preferentially kill off the cells that have short telomeres in your blood because they're more sensitive to the toxins. As a result, the average telomere length in your blood gets longer, just as if you had a company and you fired the dumbest employees in the company. The average IQ of your company would increase even though nobody got any smarter. At the other extreme, you can— if your product is all at all immunogenic, it will induce cells that already have very long telomeres in your bone marrow. Even if you're 90 years old, you still have cells in your bone marrow that have long telomeres. It'll induce those cells to divide and infiltrate the blood.. And now those become in your average telomere length of your blood increases is, is longer, but it didn't get lengthened. Just as if you'd hired a bunch of geniuses for your company and the average IQ of your company went up. Okay. Without anybody getting any smarter. So, so you can have a before and after where the after is longer, but there was no lengthening. Now people say, well, doesn't matter how they got longer, that's good. The problem is that to get those cells into the blood or to get rid— to replace the cells that got killed off, you have to have cell division. Actually, your whole body now, if you— and we can't do that yet, we can't measure telomere lengths in your whole body, but your average telomere length, your whole body has gone down, gotten shorter, even though the length of the telomeres in your blood got longer.

Okay, now I'm confused. So you have to dummy this down for me. Okay. The Telovital has these ingredients that helps produce telomerase, but that's not lengthening the telomeres, or it is. It's just that it's this.

I don't want to say only product, but let's say this is a product that does lengthen telomeres, but not enough to win the tug of war. Okay? But it slows it down. So shortening and lengthening are two separate things that happen inside of our cells first. So even in our reproductive cells, when the cell divides, the telomeres get a little shorter, loses a ride ticket. Then telomerase comes in and adds the ride ticket back. Okay, now, so it's two processes. Now, this product is, is, is not gonna be as potent as what we have in our reproductive cells. But if, if we treat our cells like our skin cells with this product, cell divides, the telomeres will lose a ride ticket, and then this product will add a part of a ride ticket back. Or maybe the next time it, maybe it won't one time, and then maybe the next time it will add a ride ticket back. But it does decrease— the telomeres don't shorten as fast from every cell division in the presence of this product as they did before without the product.

Okay. And then other products say they do that but don't actually do that.

They, they don't lengthen. They, they don't. So what I say, there's some good YouTube videos where I don't talk about products at all, but I just, I'm trying to educate audiences on how to not be duped into doing, taking something that's not good for them. And so I, I say the only way to possibly lengthen telomeres is with the production expression of the telomerase gene. And if the company that's providing the product, whether it's a supplement or a therapy or like a red light therapy, you know, some box you get into or something like that, that they claim lengthens your telomeres and makes you younger, ask them if the product induces the expression of telomerase, because measuring telomerase is easy to do and it's a logical thing to do. If they're claiming that your telomeres got longer, the logical thing to do is to say, well, let's see if the product's inducing telomerase expression. And if they don't have that data, I always say, ask them why not, since it's so easy to measure. But in truth, they did measure it. And there is no telomerase activity and they don't understand what's going on. And they just say, well, the telomeres got longer, so we must have produced telomerase and we're just doing the test for telomerase incorrectly. Now my company tests every product and when we can prove to them that their product does not induce telomerase, we let them know. So I always say, you know, check with them to see if they have the Bill Andrews or Sierra Sciences seal of approval. Okay? And if they don't, ask them why not and ask them to go get it. Because I'm not going to get out on stage and say this product is a fraud, this doesn't work, and things like that. I'm not a marketer, I'm a scientist. But I do try to educate audiences on how to figure it out for themselves.

Do people need to also focus on minimizing their oxidative stress, maximizing their movement, their sleep, their stress reduction, their food? Does this work in a vacuum? Or does it work in conjunction with?

They have to do all those things. Okay. Especially right now because we aren't winning the tug of war, but we can even do better by eliminating some of the people on the pulling the side, shortening telomeres, the pulling to shorten telomeres. We can, by eliminating some of those by antioxidants, anti-inflammatories, quit smoking, quit being obese. Meditation and yoga, same thing though. They actually reduce the number of people on the side. I've been a keynote speaker at yoga conferences and stuff like that explaining all that, that yoga meditation is actually decreasing the rate of their aging. And I have scientific data showing it. The, uh, what else? Um, like, uh, important supplements like vitamin D and omega-3 fatty acids. Those have been shown to remove people from the shortening side of the tug of war. Unfortunately, you can't remove all of them because there's a few that are involved in what's called the end replication problem, which I don't— won't go into detail here, but that's something you can't get rid of. And so you can— but if you got rid of everybody else and all you had was the end replication problem, you could live to be 125 years old. Of course, nobody does because we don't have— we don't— we still all have our vices and things like that. But by adding somebody to the other side will actually make it so you could live longer than 125. And hopefully in 20 years from now, we'll start seeing some people, including myself, live long while. Be more than 20 years from now, but whatever.

So how long does it take to notice the effect of it? I mean, are we talking years if you're taking Telovital? Because you want to see that you're not aging and you see that over time.

So the anecdotal data, which I, as a scientist, I'm not a big fan of just anecdotal data, but there's a lot of people that are showing results within just a few weeks. Okay. And, but I'm saying that that's because they must have critically short telomeres. And the things in particular tissues, and the tissues are eyes. So, so vision is coming back to a lot of people. Hair color is coming back to a lot of people. Hair is coming back to a lot of people, but only to those people that lost their hair or were getting bad vision because of telomere shortening. Okay. There's a whole bunch of other things that can cause that too. But we are seeing that. And there's, there's a lot of other things that I, I've been hearing from testimonials and stuff like that because I do provide my email address to anybody who has questions and I can provide it here on this podcast too. If anybody wants to talk to me one-on-one about any particular issues, I'm really good at doing that.

The—

but there's, there's been quite a few anecdotal pieces of data. And I am— I'm, I'm talking to leaders in the business and stuff like that about doing some studies to kind of keep track of all this, to try to get some maybe publications showing this.

Okay, this is a lot to digest. Bill, tell me, where can people find out more about you? And we'll put everything in the show notes.

Okay, um, I do have a website. But because my company is not a marketing company and we don't sell anything and we just— all we do is research. I'm— my building here that I'm in right now is 10,500 square feet of just pure lab space. Okay. I'm, I'm in a facilities manager's office right now because it's the only office where I could do a podcast. It's— we're all just totally lab intensive, science research intensive. So my website is not always completely up to date. I can— anybody who emails me, I can send a whole list of key videos where I'm speaking at medical conferences explaining to doctors. And believe me, it's not over your head. Doctors, when you have an audience full of doctors, it's really obvious that they are pretty general public too. So these videos explain things really well, a lot better than I could do in this short podcast. But they can send that or they can also go to Touchstone's website. Okay. Touchstone Essentials, which is the company that markets this Teal of Vital. It's a really good company. They got a lot of other good products, in my opinion. Their website is www.thegoodinside.com.

And we'll get that in the way and we'll put that in the show notes. What about your website?

My website's www.sierrasci.com. That's S-I-E-R-R-A-S-C-I dot com. And my email address is B as in boy, Andrews at sierrasci.com.

Okay, beautiful. All right, Bill. So this has been great. Like, I love telomeres and this has been very eye-opening. So thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing this, and thanks for being on the podcast for the Feel Freaking Amazing.

Well, thank you. I love the opportunity to let everybody know the truth about things.

Yeah, thank you.

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