Reignite Intimacy And Sex Through Curiosity, with Dr. Elliot Kronenfeld

I say there's two things that keep a relationship really healthy, and it ain't love and sex. Now, don't get me wrong. Love and sex is hot, and we want it. But the two things that really keep a relationship vibrant is intention and curiosity. Being able to live with intentional curiosity. That shit is sexy.

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I'm Dr. Ed Levitan. Welcome to the Five Journeys podcast, where.

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Welcome to the Five Journeys podcast. Live like youe Matter. We are delighted to be back here today, and I'm so excited to introduce our guest, Elliot Cronenfeld. Elliot is a licensed clinical social worker and certified sex therapist for individuals, couples, and families that are dealing with issues that might inhibit future growth and happiness. He's earned an Ms. In Communications and an MSW from Simmons University and a PhD in Human Sexuality from the California Institute of Integral Studies, and he's the author of the book Couples by Intention. Elliot, welcome. I'm so excited to have you here today. So is Ed, too.

I'm feeling a little inadequate because she's really, really excited to have you.

I'm growling over you.

It's okay. I feel the energy. I'm feeling the love. It's all good.

Yeah, right? So I think that you were kind enough to say yes to this because I really wanted to talk about sex and intimacy. I think I pestered you till you said yes.

Oh, my God. It's my favorite topic.

So let's just dive in. Why does intimacy get less over time?

Well, you know, part of it is because we start taking each other for granted. See, you know, one of the sexiest things in the world is anticipation. God, anticipation is so sexy. Like, go back to the early part of your relationship, you know, when you're thinking, like, wow, is she gonna wear that silky dress again? You know, the one that makes her rack look really nice? Because I like that.

Wait, how did you get into my brain?

Right? I got you. I got you, right? And, Wendy, you're thinking, like, is he gonna wear those tight jeans that make his ass look really hot? Right? Because I want to know, like, if I call, is she gonna pick up the phone? Is she gonna sleep over? Like, what am I gonna get tonight? Am I gonna get any? Like, I don't know. And that kind of anticipation. It's super sexy, right? But what ends up happening is over time, some of that anticipation starts to go away. Are you gonna sleep over? You're there every damn night. Like, I know what you look like in the morning. Like, there's. We start to lose the sense of anticipation, and so. And then life starts to become more complicated because we become less focused on each other because we start building this much more complicated life together. And we lose anticipation.

Does that fall into novelty, too? Like, is anticipation different than novelty? Or is it the same thing in your brain?

Well, it's the not knowing, right? So one of the things I say to couples all the time is, I challenge you to live in the land of I don't know.

Because we get.

We get. After time, we believe we're supposed to know everything about our partner because that's what the stories have told us, right? Is that we are a good couple. If I know everything about you, and I can read you like a book.

How about finish his sentences.

Finish his sentence, right? It's the worst thing you could do.

That never happens, right?

On an hourly basis, right? But it's the worst thing we can do for each other. Because what happens is that, see, we're all doing these micro changes every day. We're growing, we're stretching, we're developing. But when we're together over a long period of time, we forget to see that we're changing. And we start seeing each other as fixed and stable. And the truth is, none of us are fixed and stable.

So what would you say then?

I say there's two things that keep a relationship really healthy, and it ain't love and sex. Now, don't get me wrong. Love and sex is hot and we want it. But the two things that really keep a relationship vibrant is intention and curiosity. When we can be really intentional in our relationships and not take it for granted, not operate from a place of assumption, and when we can be really curious. Which means, I don't believe I know everything about you. I don't know how you've changed. And being able to live with intentional curiosity. That shit is sexy.

Got it.

Very cool. So how do you set it up?

How do you. And how do you keep it going?

Yeah. So part of it is, first of all, we have to have an awareness, right? And we forget what it means to be intentional. Because, you know, in the beginning of a relationship, intention becomes really easy because we are infatuated. And see, love and infatuation actually are the exact opposite of each other. Infatuation is high energy. It's exciting, it's public, it's private. Everything is perfect. It's erotic. Infatuation is something I want to share. Infatuation is full of curiosity, and it. And it begs me to jump in. See, love is the opposite of all of that. Love tends to be more private. Love oftentimes is not about perfection. In fact, it's just the opposite. It's. I see all of the flaws. Love is often low energy. Love is not always erotic. Love actually is about digging into the places that are uncomfortable and dark. And that's when we say the honeymoon died, right? Which is when infatuation starts to fade. And so what happens is that we have to remember that infatuation comes back. It does. And if we're doing a really good job and we're both leaning in, there will be moments where infatuation happens. Like my husband, right. I often am most infatuated with my husband when I see him in public. Like when I watch how other people react to him. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's. He's. He's actually really funny. Like, yeah, people really love him. I'm like, that's coming home with me. Right? And then, of course, that infatuation could last for weeks, or it could last the 10 minutes till we get in the car and I realize he didn't pick up the dry cleaning that I need. And I'm irritated, right? But so it comes and it goes. It comes and it goes. But see, we believe that infatuation is love, and love should feel like infatuation. They're very different things. And one of the things I say to people all the time is real sex does not feel like porn looks. Porn is made for the camera. Porn is made for the audience. So real sex doesn't feel like porn looks. But yet we're taking these messages and we're crafting these scripts, these stories, and. But nobody's actually sitting down and educating us and breaking it down and exploring what it means for me. What does it mean for you? And so we show up in these relationships with these expectations that I'm supposed to perform in a certain way in order for me to be acceptable. And so the first thing we have to do is we have to break all that down, because one of the things we have to understand about each other is what is the script you've been given about who you're supposed to be in relationship and who are you supposed to be sexually and how is that performed? Right? And that's where the curiosity Comes in and teaching couples to ask each other that, like, who role modeled relationship for you, who role modeled what intimacy looks like for you. And it could be somebody in your life, it could be television, it could be movies, it could be books. And really having really important conversations about that. Because we do have to start at the conceptual piece because so many people have received no education or insight on sex, intimacy, relationships, identity. And then the other part about it is really understanding what intimacy really is. And I define intimacy as this really important balance between safety and vulnerability, right? Because we find that balance and we find it all differently. But if I am so safe that I can't be vulnerable, I'm closed off. If I'm so vulnerable that I don't feel safe, I'm constantly terrified and triggered. I have to be able to figure it out, how do I balance that and how do you balance it? Because that's the magic point.

My guess is over time, that changes too, right?

Every day, like, did my kid piss me off today? Did my boss yell at me? Did I forget to pay the mortgage payment? Is my mother coming to visit? Who knows, right? But all of it can be a libido killer.

So I'm actually much more curious, going back to how to create the relationship anew. What you're talking about is creating the relationship anew every day, really intentionally creating every day. And there's a lot of people that talk about that, and it's very easy to say. And what are some practical tools that you give your patients that actually people can do to help create that?

Well, I think that practically one of the things I always start with is communication, because so often people don't know how to really listen. Listen with intimacy. And I always tell people, ask a question, don't make a statement, don't tell, ask. And really spending time with couples, really getting them to learn how to listen to each other. Because we all want the same thing, right? We want to feel heard, seen and understood. Because when I feel heard, seen and understood by you, I can be more vulnerable with you. I can open up to you. So I often start with communication. And that's where the defining of words and the learning how to create a unique language that is unique to each couple. I am obsessed with words. I think words matter because we say words that we believe everyone understands, but we actually have a very different meaning of them. And so taking the time up front, front to really define what it is that I'm trying to communicate. So, for example, one of the things I say about sex is sex is where you go in your head by yourself, with another or with others. Right. Everything I'm doing with my body, that's just sexual activity. But sex is where I go in my head. So for example, I could go to the grocery store, and I'm pushing my little grocery cart through the produce aisle, and I see somebody that I think is. That's some hot stuff there working today. And I might have a little flushing behind my neck. My heart starts to race a little bit. Maybe I get a little action going on downtown. And the truth is, I've never taken my clothes off. I've never touched another person. Nobody's touched me. But I have had a full body visceral sexual reaction simply by where I went in my head. So one of the first things that I love to do is I play the word game. And I also. I also teach. I teach in master's and doctoral programs. I'm teaching up and coming therapists. And I do this with them as well because I'll say, okay, I'm going to give you the clinical word, and we're going to come up with as many words as we can for that. Ready? And we're going to each go around the room until we can't come up with any more words. Penis, dick, schlong, cock, Johnson, wood, like. And we start laughing because it's funny. Words are funny, right? Body parts are funny, right? Then I'll say breasts, tits, fun bags, like mammaries. And we just keep going and going and going.

Don't forget tatas.

Tatas. Hoo hoos. I got it. All right. Yeah, we all have our favorite words. But what I'm also able to do then is to discern where's the ick factor, right? Because there are certain words that some people like. I am so offended by that word. Great, let's talk about that. You're allowed to be offended. I don't want to take away your offense. But helping two couples to really figure out that language. And so, Ed, the real functional way I do that is we literally start naming all of the words. And I tell them every time you're in the car alone, play this game because it is funny. And it also reminds us that this is supposed to be fun, right? Sex and intimacy is supposed to be fun. And so it's a way to start bringing a little bit of humor in early. Then we can craft what language we're going to use, and we can use what words are on the. The table, what words are off the table.

But what if I'm too busy. I think the majority of people, you're saying it's fun, but I think a lot of times most people get into the groove of, I'm really busy. I got kids, I got job, I got everything else. And, oh, yeah, by the way, we should have sex sometime. It's more of a cursory. It's not fun. It's just a function. Oh, yeah, Okay. I had sex my once a week or twice a week or once a month. And check that box.

I think for a lot of women, it's. My husband really wants to have sex, and I want him to be happy. So let's make sure we take care of my. I mean, I think I hear this from a lot of my patients, that I'm tired and I'm running around and, oh, I got to have sex. So it is just like, let's make.

Sure we check the box.

It's an obligation. So one of the things, a conversation that I have very early is, why do we have sex? We have sex for reproduction. We have sex because we saw something important and we want to know what it feels like. We have sex because we want to remember. We have sex because we're angry. We have sex because we want to make up. I could go on for 30 minutes about all the reasons why we have sex. And so for couples that come to me in the way that you're describing Wendy Annette is to remind them that sex isn't always driven by libido. And so many people will say, oh, right. Because once I get into it, I remember it's fun. Once I get into it, I kind of like it. It's the getting into it. So I call that butt sex.

What?

I call it butt sex. Right. We don't like butt sex. I would have sex, but. Right. But I'm busy. But I'm tired. I'm like, so let's get out of butt sex and then maybe move into butt sex. Right into butt sex. Right. You know, and again, bringing the humor into it and demystify, but reminding them that sex is not always about libido and obligation.

Where do you go with couples who have an elephant in the room for themselves? So it's nice to talk about libido and intimacy and sex. And for a lot of couples, that may occur on top of there's some type of trauma, infidelity, betrayal. And how are you helping people navigate. Where do you send people? How do you work with them when they're coming in? Because the sex isn't good. But what's really going on is the relationship is impaired in some major way?

Well, infidelity recovery is one of my specialties. It's actually what I did my doctoral dissertation on. I love working with couples going through infidelity because I think there's so many things we can do, and it's about rebuilding trust. And I think what can be often very confusing is after there's been an infidelity, the person I hate, we never have a good word because I think both partners are hurt.

How about the recipient of the partner's infidelity?

That's a great way to put it. The recipient of the partner's infidelity often will initiate and start having the wildest, most energetic sex they've ever had because they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm going to show you what you could have had. I'm going to fuck you faithful, right? And I see this a lot, which gets to be really confusing because then we get out of bed and you hate me and you're screaming at me and telling me I'm the worst person on the planet, and then you go, fuck my brains out. I don't know what to do here. And I'm like, yeah, let's talk about that. So the elephant in the room in a situation around infidelity is that it constantly changes, and there are layers of grief that we have to work through. And one of the things that I love quoting my dear colleague Esther Perel on, is that the victim of the infidelity is not the victim of the marriage, because both of you. The marriage, the relationship, because both of you crafted the dynamic of this relationship under which this infidelity happened. So why weren't you paying attention? Did you. This could not have been a total surprise to you. Like, where were you when all of this was going on? There's an ownership and responsibility that that person doesn't want to hear, but has to. And so it's about breaking it down and working together.

So when you work with a couple, not even infidelity, just a couple, what does that long mean to you? Are you talking 1 month, 6 months, 10 years? What does long? What's the range?

Well, I think if you're just. If you know, if you're coming in to deal with a very specific issue. I have couples who are like, we're trying to decide whether we're going to have another child that might be one to three months, right? We're just going to get down. We're going to make the decision, and then off you go. If we're dealing with an infidelity or infertility, which is another one of my specialties. Or we're dealing with chronic health. Somebody has a cancer diagnosis which leads to sexual dysfunction or a chronic pain, which leads to a sexual dysfunction. This is going to take a long time. This is not. There's no pill for these things. And it's about really unwinding. It can be years. I have couples that I've worked with for years.

All right, so you are obviously incredibly passionate about what you do, which I love. But there's only one of you. So how do you find people like yourself that love the work? How do you find sex therapists in general? And then how do you find good sex therapists?

So there's a couple of things I would tell you. So, first of all, asec, the American association of Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists, is the organizational professional body that certifies sex therapists, educators and counselors.

Can you say the website for people who are. List who might be listening.

A S e, c t asect.org a sect.org and on Asecs, you can go in and you can look for sex therapists in your region. So there's a directory on there. You can look people up. The other thing is, I am also a certified ASEX sex therapy supervisor. So I am constantly training new sex therapists. One of the things I teach at the doctoral program is the sex therapy track. So I am constantly in an academic setting as well as in a clinical setting, helping to create this next generation of sex therapists.

So you're reproducing yourself.

Yeah, it's reproduction. Right.

So how can. How do people find good sex therapists? Because. Or how. How can you distinguish?

Do they breathe? Is not the right criteria. Right. That used to be my. I have a boyfriend. Is he breathing? Is he Jewish? I know that's a little bit broader, right?

This is such an important question, and I'm glad that you ask it, because a lot of people go to find a therapist on a website like Psychology Today, and a lot of people will say, I do sex therapy. And so really making sure that before you go meet with that person saying, are you a certified sex therapist? What's your experience with sex therapy? What are your specialties within sex therapy? Because there are far too many therapists who claim a lot of specialties that they don't really have. Like, if you go to a Psychology Today, you can put up any specialty you want. There's no vetting of that. So when you call the Therapist, make sure you're asking the questions. And I would ask, are you certified? Are you in supervision? Every good sex therapist, even if they're certified, should always be in supervision with another sex therapist. Because these issues are so critical and the risk for harm is really high. You'd want to say, so are you actively in supervision when you do sex therapy?

What does that mean? That wouldn't be ever. I never even heard that term. So what does that mean, to be in supervision?

So every. And I tell all of my students this all the time, you cannot be a good therapist if you're not in supervision. I've been a therapist for years. I'm still in supervision. And what that means is that you regularly meet with somebody who is at your level or higher to review your cases, to review your work, to make sure you're not forgetting anything, to review challenging cases, to give you a different perspective, to make sure that you're remaining ethical. As you can imagine, in sex therapy, the lines have to be very clear. Far more than probably any other kind of therapy. The lines have to be very, very clear. And so being in supervision means that you are keeping yourself in check and validating the work that you're doing.

That's great. It's like ongoing training and development for yourself. That's fantastic.

Okay, so here's my challenge. I think we're out of time.

We have a holistic questions we want to ask. We haven't gotten through any of them.

Can you give us maybe like two to five takeaways?

Yes, I will name it really quickly. 1. Remember that sex is supposed to be fun. Bring curiosity in as much as you can live in the land of. I don't know, wherever you can. The healthiest relationships have the clearest boundaries. And this goes with our teenagers. Right? When my door is closed, you don't knock on it. You don't walk into my room. The creating of sacred space. Our children are never allowed in our bedroom. Ever, Ever, ever. We don't even have pictures of our kids in our bedroom. They are not allowed to cross the threshold.

Wait, so they don't physically cross the threshold and their presence isn't in your room?

Never. Never.

Why is that?

Because that is our sacred space. Because that's where we go to have sex. That's where we go to have difficult conversations. That's when we go when we're sick, that's when we go when we want to be alone. That is our place for our intimate, connected relationship. They can have the rest of the house.

Horses out of the barn on that one, Ed. Huh?

You can claim it. Reclaim it. Reclaim it, Reclaim it. Right. So that would be number three. Number four. Number four would be make sure you know your body, you know your own body. And our bodies are aging and changing all the time, and sometimes we forget to pay attention to our body. So make sure you're physically healthy and well. Make sure you're talking to your primary care about sexual wellness. And number five, I tell people, go to couples therapy when things are still okay. Don't come when you're in the middle of a crisis, because all we can do is do crisis management. You come to a therapist, and when you're still able to have enough curiosity and work on something, come to couples therapy before there's a problem.

Yeah. I think it's brilliant advice.

That's great.

Amazing. Thank you.

Thank you. More to come.

Yes. So we'll complete this episode of the Five Journeys podcast live. Like youe Matter. Our guest today is Elliot Cronenfeld, who has a PhD in sex therapy. And we look forward to having you.

Back, Elliot, I love it.

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