The Stories of Thriving Practice Owners: La Costa Dental Excellence

Hey, dental associates and new practice owners. Welcome to the Associates on Fire podcast. Powered by Practice cfo. This is the podcast that teaches you what you never learned in dental school. The financial side of dentistry. We cover topics from planning for ownership, buying a practice, to student loans, taxes, and all things financial for the hungry to learn Dental Associate. So let's light it up.

Welcome back everyone, to the Associates on Fire podcast.

My.

My name is Drew Phillips and I'll be the host of today's episode. For those who haven't had a chance to check out our Associates on Fire program yet, I'm a CPA and CFO advisor at Practice CFO and one of the instructors in our Associates on Fire program. Be sure to check us out at www.ass Associatesonfire.com. today's episode is a family affair. We have a trio of dentists that are more than co practice owners. They're a thriving family. Excited to introduce you all to the Dankworth clan. We have doctors Steven Kimberly and Piper Dankworth, owners and founders of La Costa Dental Excellence. Steven and Kimberly built their practice on the pillars of function, health and aesthetics. And each member of this family embodies both a drive for clinical excellence and a knack for savvy business practices. I hope you guys are as excited as I am because today we're going to get to hear their story. So let's jump right in with the most important question of all. Stephen, how did you and Kimberly meet?

Dental school.

Yeah, we met in dental school. They sit you in alphabetical order. I was Corrigan, he was Dankworth.

How did, how do you have to come hunt you down, Cam?

No, not too much.

There was only. Yeah. So our first half of every day was spent in pre clinical and then the second half was in class and so pretty preclinical was lab. And so we had, we were sat on these bench, long lab bench seats. And so there was, you know, there was 12 to every stack or line, if you will, and six on one side and six on the other. And so there was one individual separating us. Guy. And so because of your struggles and how much time you spend there, you know the term misery loves company and that you really get to know somebody when you are together for long periods of time and you're really dealing with adversity. Absolutely. So you really get to see people for who they are. And so, yeah, we got to know each other pretty quickly. Yeah, definitely.

So you guys were finishing up school, coming into residency. What was the thought process? But you know, behind where you chose to pick your location. Was there anything that.

We just talked about that this morning we met one of the dental reps and he had such great, right from the beginning, information for us and he said, pick where you want to live and we'll figure out where your practice is going to be. And he helped us start that. So we found dentistry the right place to rent. It was easy. We built it out and it was from there on it was perfect.

So you guys, that was advice from a dental sale supply rep. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, it was really interesting because yeah, he was the first kind of professional in the industry that we met. He just, he cold called us and just said, hey, my name is Mike Osler, I work for Burkhart Dental Supply. And I just wanted to introduce myself. If you need anything, you know, I know at some point, you know, I want to be able to help you. You may not need my help right now, but you will said, hey, if you're looking for work, you know, just really just was. Was an odd and. And has, you know, and of course, you know, who did we use to do our first office? Him, of course, second office, him. But he was a wealth of information and, and he, he really helped us look at a lot of things and helped us with design and you know, and because, yeah, there's, there's so much, you know, we, we didn't know.

Right. And you guys were building yours from scratch, so you had a build out that you had to do. Yeah, you know, correct design that, the space, whole.

Yeah, the whole business side of it. Employee, you know, it was. Yeah, it's a lot to think about. And so, you know, I think, you know, what in. And even, you know, but I would have to say we were really strategic from the get go. And I attribute or credit Mike for helping us think that way because, you know.

For us we looked at, okay, where were things growing in North County?

And we loved Carlsbad. We actually were living in La Costa, part of Carlsbad. Really wanted to live there. But at the time, Carlsbad was no growth, nothing was happening there. And Oceanside was exploding. Really was. I mean it was crazy between Oceanside and San Marcos. And so we looked at the, the growth prediction and demographic graphics and said, okay, well if we're going to open a practice from scratch, doesn't it make sense to be in the middle of this growth? Right. And so, so that's, that's what, you know, that's what kind of pushed us to look in that area or open up our first office. On Oceanside.

So there was a combination that sounds like then between where do we want to live? And. And then this analytical side, too. Where. What's the most emerging and prosperous area for us to.

And location, too. And Absolutely, location. Not just, you know, just an area, but, you know, the physical location. You know, we don't want to be stuck back in a corner. You want to be visible. And so there's a lot of things to consider.

And I bet having a strong street presence was even more powerful back then.

Monument signs, too, that a lot of people now can't get. Everything has to be very low profile. It's very difficult to have somebody see your sign when it's really only 24 inches long and 5 inches high.

Absolutely. So how long into your practice ownership journey did you guys have, Ms. Piper here?

Well, boy, we heard. We were well into. We had been in Oceanside, our original. Our first practice, for 15 years.

And we had actually gotten to the point. So. Which you were 14 years old? Thirteen years old, maybe 12. Thirteen, I think.

Yeah. Because we moved into the La Costa house when I was junior.

Right.

15. Yeah. So you had to commute between the two for, I think, two years.

So we. So she. She was early teens, and.

We had gotten to the point of that our first office that we were. Had literally outgrown the office space.

How many opportunities did you guys start with?

It was five.

Five.

Yeah. And so we were, you know, our.

Our kind of mentor, practice management mentor, had said, you know, you really should. You know, I think it's time that you look at moving, you know, finding another space. And so we looked immediately around us, within a mile for a great location, but we couldn't find a great location. There just wasn't. There just wasn't. And so.

Then we kind of started going farther and farther out. Well, it just so happened at that time. That was when things started happening in Carlsbad. All of a sudden, this. Years of no growth, slow growth, city council, everything changed. And these major developers came in and things started exploding in Carlsbad. And so it just so happened on a Saturday afternoon as we're driving by and looking at where all these developments are going and where this new retail is going that we saw this loc. And it just almost, you know, it just. It's crazy how it happened, but did. And we just happened to know the right people at the right time, and we got this. Found this primo location. However, it's whatever, eight miles, eight and a half miles away from the Oceanside office. And so we just said, we can't pass this up, but we've, you know, okay, we'll do two. We'll start this one out and we'll see what happens. So.

And there was two of you?

Yeah, yeah. And so. And so we committed to the process and opened another office and at that time had, you know, two kids. And after a couple of years, we were on overwhelm. You know, true overwhelm was spread real thin.

Right.

I hope our listeners are double take a double take on that comment that he just made there.

Yeah. And really all of a sudden started looking at our quality life and went, you know, and it's interesting how as life goes by, you sometimes look back and go, you know, if we would only maybe been thought. Been more strategic, we could have done things differently. But we ended up deciding to sell and again, it was Mike Hossler, who was our. The equipment supply rep, because we'd gotten to the point where we were so busy, and he said, well, you know, you can sell the Oceanside office. Because we thought that wasn't gonna be. We would just have to try and take all the patients because that was far enough away. He started going through all the, you know, I guess the positive things about it and the potential of its, you know, of selling it. So. So we decided to sell it and ended up selling it. And that was a hard thing to do.

It was your first baby.

Yeah. Oh, very much so. Yeah. And so. But we, we did that and you know, the funds from that helped us pay off the La Costa office, Carlsbad location. So it was a good thing there. But, you know, it was hard. Yeah. Emotionally, mentally, you know, to leave this, this thing that you had nurtured for and, and patients too. We couldn't take all the patients from there, so there was a non compete in that.

Right. And I was, I was going to say, you know, eight miles on the surface doesn't sound like a lot, but if you ever driven from Carlsbad to Oceanside, it's pretty.

Yeah, it was 20, 25 minutes. Yeah.

Long enough.

And. And realistically, even if we thought really positively that, okay, these, all these patients are going to follow us down to La Casa, there's no way. Yeah, we were, we were going to lose easily. I would say at least a third to half of them for sure.

And that's. At that point it's worth selling.

Yeah.

Instead of taking the attrition.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then so you guys funded, as it sounds like to me, with the equity that you had built in the first location. So did you guys take out any debt to buy or to buy your second look to build out your second location?

Yes, we did. And, but we essentially paid that off, you know, within a year by selling the other office. Yeah. And then, and, and at the same time. And, and it was double the, the, the size square footage over double that. And, and so of course we didn't equip everything. We built out eight ops and we didn't equip all eight ops. We, as in similar to what we did with the first one, we built it out as we grew, you know, we didn't take the big burden of debt immediately and try and equip everything.

Right, that's smart. Absolutely. Scale, scale efficiently over time. So then as you guys were moving in, so now we're in Carlsbad office 2003 starting time. Right. When do you guys. What was the progression from a clinical skill set perspective? You know, what did you guys do early on and then what did you guys want to tackle first from maybe continuing education to. And what. And why did you choose those next clinical steps?

Well, I think that for me, one of the key things and I think for any doc, any, any young doc that's. That wants to, you know, that's maybe listening today, that is, that's an associate right now. And their goal is I want them. And just like I was and my wife was and Piper, I want to be my own boss. I want, because that's what I wanted from the get go and I want to be my own business owner. I want to control my environment. I want to work the days, I want to work all of that.

You know, what was important for us was to get really good counsel. And that was in the form of business management.

So critical, you know, Mike Osler, you know, somebody who was in the industry that, you know, had had his finger on the pulse and then, and then on continuing education, you know, and so it was. We have always, Piper, Kim, me and Kim have always been.

So involved in.

I want to say maybe not always the best of the best of continuing education, but it kind of ended up being that way and pursuing that and how we really.

I would say.

Found those that continued education or those individuals that we feel were invaluable to our growth and development of docs as docs as clinicians and practitioners was through friendships and meeting people that, you know, were a step ahead of us. Right, right. And so it's a. So who have you been to, you know, who, you know, and, and one of the Names that came up time and time again for me. And this is when I was going to all this hands on cosmetic. Doing these cosmetic cases, whether it was PAC Live back then or Las Vegas Institute, and these were the clinical instructors who had been doing it of me already for years. And this one name kept coming up. You got to go see John Kois. You have to. You. You have to get connected there. He's the real deal. And so, so for me, that was. That was a big deal. That was really a big deal to get connected there and have not regretted it. I think, you know, I'm so jealous for Piper starting out her career with John Kois.

Yeah.

And if I could have gone back and done it over again.

Right.

I, you know, how much further ahead of the, you know, the ball I would be, you know, now, or. I just think that it's just. He's phenomenal.

I want to actually talk about Kois just for a moment because I think there's. How many graduates are there, first of all? Roughly.

I don't know that I actually couldn't.

Tell you that number.

I mean, he has an. He has an annual continuum. So it's every year there's an annual meeting with all the graduates. That essentially what he does. And this is what is so priceless about him. So it. It took me, I think, three, almost four years to go through his continuum. Okay. And that's because it's time and money.

Was there still four courses back when you guys were nine?

Nine, yeah. Now there's eight or nine of them, I think.

Oh, there's still eight? Yeah, still nine. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah.

And so, and so. So you think of that time period, but even, you know, in that time period, some of his material, I mean, he's always updating it, you know, and that's what I so appreciate about John is he. He goes through every journal monthly and looks at all the articles, all the new research.

Wow.

So he's just a dedicated learner and compares it to what he's teaching and he updates. And if there's anything that changes and, you know, at this continuum, what he does is he talks about that.

So, you know.

I don't love reading journals and sitting down and spending all the time myself. I'll occasionally pick one up, but John does that. And so one of the great benefits of being a graduate and a mentor up there is that every year I get to get updated by John. And it's usually. It's a three day, three day meeting. And it's awesome. And he goes through everything.

His whole kind of updating all the information and some, some, sometimes there's not really a whole lot of update. But he, he, he brings interesting cases in and it's just invaluable.

When I look at the consistency across the graduates, of course that I do know and the caliber of dentist and business owners that they are, it's a common denominator for success. I've actually written this down on like my successful pillars for a dentist. And so for, and what surprises me is that there's still not a lot of like a lot of awareness necessarily about Kois is still kind of like kept pretty tight to the, to the chest. And so what is, I would love for our listeners to know what course is about, what the experience is about. So what is, can it give them a flavor maybe about what life is going through their courses?

I think when I talk to people, because I've invited a handful of people I've gone to school with or people that I've just met through other dental events to go experience Kois because of the value of the content you learn there and usually the common response is.

It'S so expensive, I couldn't possibly do that right now. And when you look at just the money you have to shell out up front to go, I understand the worry there because it is a commitment by if you look at it as an investment, just like you would putting money away or doing something with the stock market for return, it's exponentially worth it. And one of the things I have heard time and time again is that the understanding you get from the diagnostic standpoint, because now it's not just, oh, I'm learning how to go home and have a more efficient crown prep, it's your understanding.

The mouth as a whole system and how it works and how to properly protect the dentistry you do. And when you have that confidence to know I'm doing things from the ground up instead of piecemealing stuff just because you don't know any different, your ability to communicate that with your patient and to make them understand that and to make them feel reassured like you care, it's makes getting them to commit to these huge treatment plans so much easier and it makes them have confidence in you like you understand what you're talking about, you care about them and their well being and you want to make sure that what you do lasts for as long as possible, not just you're doing it because it's there and can be done. So I find that those that take the time to really invest in his courses, come out with so much more knowledge than just a course on how to place an implant or how to restore it. It's a long term prognosis process that can truly guide how everything is successful.

Yeah, he has, you know, there's so many things I so appreciate about John and he is so systems driven, which in what. And that really makes things easier because it's a system and he's all about systems. And when, you know.

What really struck me is after having been, been going, going through the continuum, it was all of a sudden what I would see.

It's like the veil was pulled back and what I was starting to see diagnostically and see with my patients and also realize, wait a minute, that's why, with this patient a year ago, that's why that didn't go well. Or.

You know, just my awareness, my overall awareness became so elevated. It was, it was just, it was crazy. It was just really, really crazy. And so, yeah, John is all about, you know, he's developed this diagnostic protocol, you know, from, from the medical history to aesthetics to functional to periodontal, you know, and broken it into sections. So it is, and it's all based on risk. So high, low, none, you know, and.

It'S, you know, it. For me.

It was one of the, one of the pieces, real key pieces that helped elevate my game and become the best form of myself.

And it's more than just CE in dentistry. And I think that's one of the nice things about his program is that even the people that come back and help and like the graduates that come back and want to help run the classes, because you have people that have finished the program there for each course and they're called mentors and they really are that it's, they donate their time to come up. They don't get paid to be there. And they're there because they care and they want to help build this community of excellent dentists that care, and it's been lovingly coined the Kois tribe. And that community is there in and outside of Seattle. And you build these relationships with people that are at the Kohe classes as well as the people that volunteer their time to be there to help you through difficult things, whether it's practice related on the business side, whether it's the patient side and you can bring real cases that you're struggling through or that you are unsure of to them, or schedule time to talk to people over the phone that you've met. And it, it's just helpful to know that you can brainstorm with all these other people and there's no judgment and you get all of this extra perspective that sometimes you can get lost in the weeds with when you don't really know where to start. So it's nice knowing that when you're there, it's educational for everyone and that no one's going to come and criticize you for opinions or thoughts or it's. Everyone's there to help build better people and a better.

What a great group of people to be a part of a tribe.

Right. I mean, and, you know, and what struck me, again, another attribute of, you know, what John almost embraces is how do we learn or when do we learn the most in our professional careers?

When we fail. Okay. And so usually I can tell you in other continuing education.

Classes, they're not talking about failures.

He welcomes that. He wants to see that. Bring that to your next course where things didn't go right so everybody can learn why, you know, so. And hopefully that so. So that you learn from that. And so, you know, it's. It's.

Learning, you know, he helps you to see where. Where you missed that risk assessment or you, you know, you. Yeah, you missed it for whatever reason. But.

And he shows his own failures. You know, he will show a case that's 10 years out and that has.

Gone sideways within that program.

You know, and probably one of the most critical parts of being not only a clinician, but a practice owner is being able to present treatment effectively to the patient so that they say yes to the things that they need. And if they're not saying yes to things that they need, you're not getting the reps, an opportunity to do the type of clinical treatment that you want to do. So in that program, what do they do to help you guys as clinicians explain to patients in a way where it makes sense.

That's his whole first course is diagnosing and treatment planning. And so he has this, again, whole system broken down. And he will. In his.

Teaching facility, they basically have this operatory connected to the lecture hall that they have cameras and so you can see everything. And he will walk through, like a diagnostic treatment planning interview, how you talk to them, how you interact with your assistant to keep you on track, to make sure you're documenting all the right things, you're asking all the right questions to make sure you aren't missing that information. And he goes through, like, how you have those conversations.

Yeah. And which, by the way, his actual facility, teaching facility is first class. When I say first class. It's first class there. I, I've never been to anything as nice and, you know, and that's just the way he does things. It's. It is, you know, and it's an amazing, just an amazing environment. But yeah, it's.

Behaving, you know, by learning through his, his systems, his, you know, diagnostic protocols and how he. It.

And then, you know, that's just on the, on the, on treatment planning, and then there's occlusion and a lot of other things. It really just instills confidence in you. And there's, there's a big difference when you're, you're talking to somebody and trying to explain their needs, that patient's needs, and you know what you're doing, you know where you're going with it, and you know how you're going to help them. The patient feels that, oh, yeah, they, they know that. And yeah, yeah, the ball can get dropped by, in a handoff to a front desk member or, you know, an assistant. So, yeah, that whole process has to be worked through. So. But it's, you know, it absolutely starts with the doc and being, you know, that communication there and being able to ask and really understand you need to ask more questions sometimes and not just, you know, go through your checklist.

Do you all have a treatment, a designated treatment coordinator at your offices or your office?

No.

We don't. It's pretty much the doctors and the assistants in the rooms, and we work through what we're going to tell the patient and how we're going to present that treatment plan to them. We have someone who does the financials with them, gives them information about their insurance, what things are going to cost, their options for payment, but not a treatment coordinator who sits with them.

A treatment coordinator. But how our office has worked, and I don't know if others are different than this. It's as we're in the room and we're diagnosing everything, the assistants are putting it into the treatment plan. And then as we're having that conversation, the assistants are then organizing and prioritizing the treatment plan. And then how we have our systems in place is that then the assistant will go up to the front while we're finishing talking to the patient and give them a handoff, saying, like, this is what we talked about. This is how we want to move through the treatment. These are some things to be aware of as far as patient concerns or questions that might arise. And then one of the ladies up front that are treatment coordinators will sit down with the patient and say, this is the steps and this is what it's going to cost. And then financial questions they can answer.

So they're saying yes to treatment to.

You guys, which, you know, instead of yes, essentially. And, you know, IO was, I think, one of the. One of the things when I'm kind of done speaking with them, kind of wrapping things up with them as far as, okay, this is the big picture and this is what it's going to look like.

Almost always say, I know we haven't looked at numbers. We haven't talked about numbers. And some people, some patients are, well, give me a ballpark, or I want to know before I get up there. And rarely do I do that. I just say, know I want to be accurate here. So, you know, it is. And with, you know, depending on the case, of course, but. But it's. It's usually, you know, just a confirmation that with them that, you know, it's going to be worth it, you know, and it's. And it's building that patient's confidence and me or Piper or Kim and our abilities to meet their needs and what they want and because, you know, I've been blown away over the years at people where I've just said, okay, well, we're going to talk about this, but just from my judgment in the back of my head is going, this guy's never or this woman is never going to really want to do this. Right. I can, you know, just from my judgment.

Right.

And sure enough, or contrary to that, they are. Okay, can I put money down today? And. And other times, people that are, you know, so confident that you. You think they're gonna. They're going to choose you or immediately start.

You can't get out the door fast enough.

Yeah, yeah. They're just running out the door.

Right?

So. So, yeah. So some will, some won't. Yeah.

The treatment coordinators up front with our front desk also make a world of difference just with their ability to communicate and they can commit to us. But if our front desk doesn't seem to have confidence in what we do, then it's just another weak link. And we have incredible ladies at the front as well as our assistants that. I mean, patients ask when doctors aren't in the room, they always do. They want to know more information or do you really think this is a good idea? And, I mean, sometimes I'll just, like, walk out of the operatory and stand behind the wall where they can't see me and listen because I want to know what they're Going to ask. And I'm curious. So it happens. And so with our team and how well they get trained and just they're one of the big priorities with our staff that we have is that them wanting to learn. And I think that's a huge part of having case acceptance accepted by people is your team has to be on board with it. And so at every stage of the patient moving through, especially with new patient visits and diagnosing, everyone has to be on board and everyone has to be confident in what you're doing. And I think our team is pretty good at articulating all of that to our patients. So that also is a big key to success for us.

Create that sort of unified office culture.

Oh, man.

And then how do you keep it intact?

You know, intact is a good way to say that it fluctuates.

It always does. You know, and it's. And of course, last two years. Yeah, man. It's, you know, you know, God bless those. Those offices and those docs that, you know, have had some just solid people that are all in all committed and, you know, I don't know statistically how many there are out there, but I've talked to a number and I was just on a webinar the other night that was dealing with hiring new people.

And it was a koi center, actually. Yeah. Hosted by Jeff Gray.

And so they had Steve Anderson on from. And Pam. I'm trying to remember Pam's last name, but she's the Crown Council.

Crown Council. And tops.

And tops. Yeah. So. And they're just talking about just how the challenges of attracting qualified employees and like, we lost some employees during the pandemic and it's, you know, it is.

Yeah, it is hiring with intention. And, you know, there's just a lot of challenges. It really is. And sometimes, you know, of course, we have the ideal of who we want to fill that position, but, you know, the reality is, can we actually find that individual? So, you know, where are we going to, you know, where are we going to say, take less as far as, say, experience.

Or.

Yeah, and so you hire the personality and then train and. And that's worked very well for us in the past.

And other times not.

You know, sometimes those personalities aren't always the same during the interview and a month later. But you do your best. It's super hard. But we also have recently sat down and we came back from Sunrise Dental Solutions annual summit, and one of the big things we did when we came home was like, sit down and really rehash what Our vision and mission statement and culture in our office, as far as truly defining it, like, write it out. And then we printed it on these giant posters, and now we're hanging them in our office. So you want people move that now you need to be in a new office. Or was it an issue with being in a different practice? And frequently the common denominator is I wasn't happy in the last practice I was in because of environmental issues, whether it was personality or systems or issues.

With other team membership from the doc or. Yeah, and that's.

And it's interesting because the number.

Jeff, on this webinar, actually took a survey as far as what's most important to these individuals that are looking for. Out there looking for jobs. Is it okay, is it their pay? Is it benefits? You know, is it environment?

What was the other one that I mentioned?

Benefits?

And so he took a survey of all the docs that were on. And so.

Most of us went, pay.

I kind of knew better. And so I went, okay, pay, environment or team? And it ended up being that pay was third.

But, yeah, environment, you know, team. Team dynamics was. Or culture was number one.

Well, and it's. We spend a ton of time in our practice trying to keep the culture cohesive. And whether that's through things with Crown Council, which is a wonderful organization, and they talk a lot about personalities and communication.

Team building and all of that is such a huge foundation to keeping your practice growing and to getting new patients and for case acceptance. And then the other aspect of it is Dr. Tom Steiner. And we have monthly meetings in our office to talk about our production goals and collection goals and what went well and what didn't go well and.

Yeah, just the logistics of our practice. And he's been pretty invaluable when it comes to that because he is much more on the. He's kind of like our own personal practice therapist, if you will. Like, he. He comes in and he's a psychologist. He helps us.

That's his training. But he's kind of retired now. But.

But he helps us understand, like, kind of buying motive for patients and how to attract them and how to keep them. And then he also helps us understand what is going wrong in our office when people are at odds and how to fix it and how to grow people and how to have better, like, boundaries and expectations and. Which, you know, is one of the growth things that we struggle with because that's. We don't like sitting down and writing out all of these things. But.

And he's. He's.

You know, bless his heart because, you know, we're different personality. I mean, he, you know, through Crown Council and through Tom, I mean, you learn about the four basic personality traits.

And it goes back further than that to what used to be called dental boot camp, which is Walter Haley.

And really learning how to communicate. It all kind of started with patients. So you can better. You could talk to them the way they like to be talked to if they're an analytical. That was one of my biggest struggles. I had the hardest time with analyticals because that's. I'm not. I'm really more of a bottom line, direct, even more social individual. And so, and talking to, then talking to, say, someone who's a software engineer, I would talk to them about their treatment plan and show them the X rays and, okay, this is what we need to do. And they would just kind of look at me and with this. Like deer in the headlights. Yeah, okay. And I didn't. I would get so frustrated because then I would say, okay, well, my treatment coordinator is going to present your treatment, you know, go over the finances with you, your insurance, and they decide, okay. And then I would ask later, all right, did he schedule? No, he didn't schedule. And I would just throw up my hands and go, I can't even believe this. You know, I told him, I showed him, I did all these things and what, you know, kind of, what the hell is wrong with him?

Right.

And, and, but it was me, you know, all what I didn't understand it was me, the way I communicated to him. And so what I failed to do was engage him. And what I learned through dental boot camp and over the years, you know, through. Through Crown Council and is that it's, you know, to learn how to read what personality is this? And you can get, you can find that out from the very first phone call. And it's as simple sometimes as looking at their paperwork and seeing, oh, I see your software engineer. How long have you been doing that? And engaging them on that. And once I learned that, it was amazing. It was amazing how the. Then all of a sudden he's asking me questions instead of just the opposite. But simple things like, is that such.

A fun process to go through?

It's, it's, It's. It's kind of mind blowing. And I just, you know, I, it was just like a relief to know. Okay, all right. You know, you know, it was, it was the way I was doing it, but, you know, it, it was just like one of again, kind of like going up to Kois Center. On the. On the clinical side, the veil's being pulled back and going, oh.

I get it now. You know, that there's more to it than that, you know, and so. So there's. Yeah. I mean, it. Yeah. Yeah, that's. It's interesting because I. You know, so early on in my career, I really thought that, you know, my success in our first office was. It was all about me. It wasn't about my team, my hygienist, my dental assistants, my front desk. It was me. The patients were there for me. I had this.

Mindset that I was the most important thing. And what I quickly found out was, no, not at all.

And burying the ego can be hard at times, that's for sure.

Yeah, definitely can be.

Our team is great about engaging our patients, too. And that's one of the things that we've really put a priority on as far as.

Them building relationships with our patients. And I think that helps a ton with patient retention, because they feel valued and cared about, and they're more than just money to us. They're humans. And we have people that have been tried and true or a hygienist for 15 years, and they drive down after they've moved to LA, or they come up from San Diego. Like, there's how many dentists between here and there that they could still go see? But it's because of their relationships with our team members that they built as to why they keep coming back.

So what are the dynamics at your office? Like, we've got three Dankworth doctors here. Right. And, you know, I can only imagine the family dynamics that go around in the office. But what do you guys have each. Do each of you have carved out your own roles within the office, or you kind of all do everything together.

Equally, or everything kind of gets mashed together. And that was a hard dynamic to figure out at first, because then you have the dynamic of us on top of the dynamic of the office. So then you had the dynamic of parent, kid, and you have the dynamic of adult. Adult. And then you have, you know, associate and employers and husband.

Wife.

Husband, wife. Yep.

Yeah.

There are a lot of arguments that probably should have just been discussions the first year and a half.

Before, you know, in comes Dr. Tom again, and we're having some therapy sessions.

Let me give you my perspective here, because.

And Kim and I, you know, before Piper joined the practice, you know, it. We had to learn, you know, it was. We did a lot of work on communication and learning how to. To speak with, you know, because Husband, wife, practice is, it's a different dynamic than say, you know, say just two partners. But even that can happen, especially if they're male, female. I could see that happening where team will go to one and treat one differently than the other or ask one when they know, okay, like I'm going to go ask mom versus dad, right? Because I know what the answer, you know, I can, I can, you know, they're going to be more sympathetic. And so we had to learn that we had to speak with one voice. And so often, you know, because of our personalities, it was more like, you know, let's, yeah, let's just deal with that, get it done and not take the time and go, okay. Or just to say, you know, I'm not going to answer that right now. Give me a second or I'll talk to you later on this afternoon. I got to talk to Dr. Corrigan about that.

And then I'll give you your answer. And let me run it by her first. And so that we speak with one voice.

Right.

And so, so we got in trouble about that and we, you know, hurt feelings between the two of us. Like, why didn't you include me in on that decision? You made that decision without running it by me. And so you know, that, you know, we had to work on that. And of course again, Dr. Tom, who's just been invaluable, has seen all those dynamics and you know, he, you know, he still gets frustrated with us.

I mean, we still don't take it.

As I sometimes, you know, and, and, but he's, you know, but he's been priceless. He really has. I, I can't, I can't believe how fortunate we are. You know, he does, he does, does work. I mean, I have referred him to friends.

I was just thinking I need a Dr. Tom in all of my clients offices.

Well, he's your man.

I know he's available, you know, but you know, it's interesting. We've been involved with a practice management consulting company called Sunrise Dental Solutions for a lot of years. And that's how I met Tom. He was, he was a guest speaker at one of our annual meetings. And it just so happened that he lived in Encinitas and we, you know, we had gone to a meeting in Chicago and we were on the same flight coming back and so we were at the airport coming back from this meeting and we just started talking and you know, so next thing I know, he's in our office, I'm doing dentistry on him. And you know, that started our professional Relationship. And it's. Yeah, he's a great guy. And I've, I mentor a couple of people and sunrise and have. And, and he's. Over the past, let me see, how many years now, I want to say seven, eight years. He's been one's up in the Bay Area and the others in Carthage, Missouri. And he's been invaluable to their, their practices as well.

And he's great because it'll work with your team on personal stuff too. I mean, if you have a lot of stuff going on in your life, it's hard to not be distracted by that. And so there are times where we'll carve out an hour or so in the day for people to sit down with him and talk privately. And if you can help navigate through some of the hard emotional stuff you're doing outside the office to help clear up some space in your head, you can be more effective and efficient when you walk in. And it's been awesome to see him be able to help some of our team members through life challenges as well. I mean, I've worked with them on a lot of stuff personally outside of the office and.

Awesome. Yeah. And yeah.

Well, you know, what he lets us do is very privately he helps us see how patients see us. He's high fear patient. He doesn't like dentistry. So us sharing sedation dentistry with him and then him sharing back with us that he felt better. He wasn't as afraid. He would say, if you had told me I could do sedation in this language. Or he just our presentation. So he tells us from a patient's point of view because he doesn't know dentistry. So he tells us, this is what I heard you say, or I needed you to explain this more or could you have written this down? Could you have used a picture? So there's, there's things. And then he'll. Because he's a psychologist, he can put on different personality types and say, when you're giving this same treatment plan to this person, I think this would have been more effective. They would have understood you better. And he's, he's very, he does training too.

His, like, most favorite thing is role playing. And he'll act like all the different personalities of people you'll have to do treatment planning with and make you have that conversation with him and be overly analytical or be overly hesitant or whatever it is. But yeah, so it's super helpful for all aspects of the office.

And he probably knows all of you individually so well.

He does. And that's the other nice thing about him, too, is he keeps everything confidential, so anything you tell him, he's not going to reveal in a conversation with someone else. So whether it was us navigating our working relationship in our office as doctors and family, and then whether it's team members that might get into it, and we have to figure out how to get them cohesive again, it's. You can have those conversations without fear of he's gonna go tell the doctors what I said, and now I'm gonna be in trouble or whatever it is. So he's very good at making people still feel secure and being able to be really honest with him and then utilize what he knows to help navigate smoother waters for everyone.

Kim, you made a comment that I thought was very interesting, which was.

That he was helping you with patients and the different patient types in your treatment planning. And you're still. Based on what you said, it's still learning, which I thought was right. It's a pretty powerful comment coming from someone that's got as much skill and time under their belt as you do. So I thought that was interesting always.

And we were talking about Kois and our clinical skills and what we know and what we learn. But the flip side of that that he brought to us was people know in their heads that something is wrong with the chewing machine that they have, whether it's the muscles or the joint or the teeth are ground down. They're losing teeth, they're breaking. They know something's not right, and they can't find that one doctor to fix them, that they've done one tooth at a time, dentistry. And so when they find or they've heard about us somehow.

They are so hoping that someone can help them, that when we can present a treatment plan to them, it makes sense to them. They don't know what crowns or bridges or implants a lot of that is, but they know something's going to fix them. And when we can speak patient language, not dentist language. I've learned a lot from Tom.

That's really cool. I wish. I mean, anything that you guys can point listeners to, to help them find programs that teaches them patient language. Amazing.

Yeah. I would have to say, you know. You know, as I was talking about before with my own frustrations, you know, early on in my career and that what. What a blessing it was to meet Walter Haley and go to my first dental boot camp. This is 27 years ago, maybe longer than that.

And that has also. There is no longer dental boot camp, but.

The company now that has kind of taken that over. Is called Tops. Tops. And Steve Anderson, who was involved with dental boot camp, really, actually really started it originally.

Is now the owner of Tops, as well as he owns, I don't know how many practices in the Dallas Fort Worth area, But he stayed in dentistry. And he's not a dentist, he's really a businessman. And. But.

He learned all of this.

You know, was really what was taught to salespeople, corporate salespeople years ago, which this gentleman, Walter Haley, this little old Texan, was the guy that Steve Anderson met. And it was like, you know, it was like the Ten Commandments, you know, coming down from the mountain. And it really.

Was just information that Dennis had never heard before.

You're never taught in dental school how to speak to people psychologically, to look at them, look at the information that you have and go, okay, this individual, he needs to hear it this way. And if you can speak to him that way, then the likelihood that he's going to agree to your. What you've just recommended as far as a treatment plan is going to be, you know, 60 or 70% higher than if you just said, here's your information. Like my frustration was. And so.

Yeah, so learning that, you know, I don't. I'm not aware of any other.

Any other people that teach that kind of, I call it boot camp material because I know to a certain degree it's probably protected, but maybe not. I'm just not aware of it. And kind of the dental circus circles out there. But. But Tops is one of those companies that teaches all of this.

And another benefit. We're talking about patients, but also with team too, and team understanding each other. You talk about culture. Well, if nobody really understands who they're working with and what their personality is, how they communicate, what are their weaknesses, Strength and weaknesses of their personality, then there's going to be conflict.

Yeah, we've had to learn that the hard way. Just with we have a handful of really social people and by the really analytical people, they're seen as not caring or being flippant or not staying on task bossy. You have the direct people trying to communicate with the more sensitive people and they're mean and like trying to boss them around. And so having them understand that through training our team with Crown Council and the information we've gotten through Tops over the years, it's helped our team understand like, oh, I can't talk to you that way. This won't go well.

There's like a stack of.

These consulting type companies that I'M making a list of in my head right now. We've got Kois, Crown Council and TOPS and then Dr. Tom and Sunrise, Sunrise Dental Solutions.

This makes it sound like we need a lot of help.

Don't we all, though?

Well, you know, that's just it. That's just it. Like I said, I thought it was all about me at one time and not really realizing. No, it isn't. There's more. And I would say the other biggest impact in my career has been our relationship with kind of my dental practice mentor, Dr. Tony Feck, who owns and runs Sunrise Dental Solutions that it used to be called.

Master Plan alliance, run by Jim and Suzanne Demolan way back in the. This is 20 something years ago.

And Tony is.

You know, what I have so appreciate about my relationship with him is he's like me. He's a dentist. He's what we call a wet finger dentist, meaning he's. He's in there day in, day out, just like me. And he's not a, you know, an MBA or. And I'm not taking anything away from other consultants that have this business experience. But when someone's talking to you about team and you know, the issues that you have with your team and they're speaking from the same, you know, the, the same kind of experience, even that day, you know, I just, you know, resonates better. Yeah, it resonates better. And so, and so Tony has been, you know, has, has really been a great friend and we've gotten so much over the years from him and, and I. Another aspect. And it wasn't actually, it wasn't him that I got connected to COIS with. However, the one thing he did connect to me with which has had probably one of the most, if not, you know, the most significant impacts in my career as a, as a dentist is doing conscious sedation through and put me. And it was actually, it's ironic that the individual that started docs, which is DOCS and that stands for Doctors of Conscious Sedation is.

Yeah, they also teach IV sedation, but his name is Michael Silverman and it was Michael Silverman who started this company 20.

I want to say 26, 27 years ago.

And because there was, you know, his frustration was there's got to be a way to take care of anxious people, high fear patients. We have all this great pharmacology out there and other than doing IV sedation, there's nothing else. So, you know, slam them down or, you know, in either ga, you know, IV sedation, there was no other alternative well, he started experimenting, not personally, but he started experimenting with patients on, okay, what works? And he was back in Philadelphia and he found that, okay, I found this drug called triazolam, Halcyon. It's been around for a long time. And it was originally developed as a sedative hypnotic, as a sleeping pill. But it got a bad name back in the early 70s because people who had been on it for a long time, some of them got a little cuckoo. And so it got a bad name. So then it wasn't prescribed much, but it's still being made. And so, but the key thing about it was the benefits of it is that your body metabolizes it really quick.

And.

Most particular is that it worked on the parts of your brain that quieted down your brain so you could relax and especially in the high fear patients. And just this one drug, and yeah, there's other, other drugs in the family, but didn't work as well as this one drug. And so, so he developed this whole protocol and then started studying it. And then over time.

Found that this works. Doesn't just work, it works really well. So you think about how many people don't go to the dentist because they're afraid out there. It's a big number. Yeah, really big number. And so once Michael started this docs organization, he and he got amazing people, including Dr. Feck, to on, as far as on his.

Faculty to teach, you know, a lot of states, all the states require to do conscious sedation that you have to have, you know, license, you have to have education to do that. And so, so that's what Michael Silverman, Dr. Michael Silverman did.

And, and their team is great because they take a lot of the guesswork out of it for you. So for anyone that wants to get into sedation dentistry, whether it's conscious or IV sedation, they have a whole department at docs that will let you know, like, if you live in this state, this is what you have to do to be properly licensed. And then they help you get through that and they make sure within the curriculum you have all the right certifications. So it's not like you have to jump through all these other hoops or try to do a bunch of research in addition to what class you're taking, just to say, I've done the hours, I've had the patient experience, now I can go sedate someone with having to submit all the other paperwork. So they help keep it really organized and succinct and easy to go through it because, I mean, we busy in our day to day lives, no one wants to spend a bunch of hours researching what documents you need. So it's nice that they have a whole legal side that will tell you, like, this is all the stuff, this is what you need to do when you're here. And then as you go through their sedation program, they have different breakout points where if you don't necessarily need to spend these hours doing this, they have you go do something else. And then those that are in, say the state of California go off and do the additional things you need for a legal perspective to make sure you're covered.

So here's, here's where I'm kind of going as far as the impact. Okay? So my frustration, and I'm sure every doc, you know, dentists out there who practices, whether it's a year or.

Even early on in their career, they're going to have that high fear patient. And I would have those high fear patients. And it was, you know, and it's all about building trust and you do a little bit at a time and you know, so it's almost like these desensitization and, you know, trying to get their trust. And you know, by the end of the appointment, you're fried mentally and emotionally and the patient's fried mentally, emotionally. And it was so much work. And not that I didn't get some people converted to, you know, finally, okay, we're going to take a baby step now. We're going to do one tube and I'm going to give you one shot, you know. And so.

So when Dr. Tony Feck said, steve.

You'Ve got to learn conscious sedation. When we did that, when Kim and I did that, what this allowed me to do was it opened up the doors again, kind of like the veil is pulled back. But to these patients that are out there that want to come somewhere, who they're going to, who they can basically trust and know that they're going to get taken care of. But if you have that sedation as your kind of like your car, you know, your hidden card that you can pull out and go, this will work perfect for you. And then they experience that, that he was right, it works.

Then people will go, okay, let's do the rest of my mouth. And so what started out as an emergency patient then turns into full mouth rehabilitation. And so that's where Tony was saying, steve, you gotta learn this because it's invaluable to you as far as what opportunities it gives you. And that's when, and actually I did docs first as prior to starting, maybe at the same time starting with Kois. And so it was then Kois that really gave me the confidence. And okay, because initially it was like, oh crap, I've got these huge cases now that people are saying, I want you to fix my mouth. And I'm kind of going, okay, well where do we start? You know.

And how do I see sequence this? And, and, and oh, their bite is really jacked up. And you know, and so, but, you know, over time, Koi's helped me to see, okay, this is, it's this, it's a system. This is what you treat. First we go here, we go here. Then we talk smile, we talk aesthetics and you know, design and, and then sequence it all. And, and the patients at the end is happy because you have totally transformed their health, their smile, and did it in a way that was atraumatic.

Those are life changing procedures.

Less traumatic. I mean, literally, I had, early on I had one guy that we did an immediate denture on. And I called him up that night and I said, bill, how are you doing? And he said, I'm doing great. And I was kind of like shot because I thought he'd be kind of moaning. And, and I said, well, that's good to hear. He goes, you know, doc, I gotta tell you, it's really funny because, you know, I got home, I got something to eat, and this is with the denture. He went, he's got dentures. And he goes, I got something to eat. And you know, as soon as I finish eating, I was like, honey, oh my gosh, I got a dental appointment today.

He didn't even remember. He didn't even remember that he had had all of his teeth taken out and that he was eating with fake teeth. It was, it was, I mean, it was precious. It was so funny. But yeah, it, it's amazing. And I mean, countless stories of, of where. And I think of another, another guy named Ted who, first time he came to my office on a new patient exam. This is just to look at X rays and talk to him. He literally sweat all the way through the back of his shirt. Now this was a guy who for fun, jumps out of airplanes at 18,000ft. Interesting. And loves to skydive, but he was absolutely petrified in the dental chair. And so, you know, we had the sedation conversation. I said, ted, we'll take great care of you. So we did that. Got through all of his initial needs.

You know, he brings, every time he comes, he brings something like chocolates or something. Yeah, yeah. And, and now, and this has been seven years. And a couple years ago, he had some old dentistry that, you know, I, I didn't replace initially, but I finally said, you know, Ted, I think it's time with this. And it was, you know, was not just a filling or two, but I said, so we'll get you set up sedation appointment, we'll do the pre op today and whatnot. And he said, you know, Steve, I don't think I need that. I just kind of laughed. I said, come on, dad, it's okay. You know, we want to take care of you. And he said, you know, I want to try it with that. And I said, you know what? I just want to reassure you that if you change your mind day of, we have, we have it here for you and we can always, yeah, we are just going to take care of you regardless. And so ended up working on him without sedation. He did, sailed through it. He did great. And it's just like now he doesn't have to be sedated anymore. He's so comfortable. And we've built that trust and it's been transformative for him and it's such a great feeling to be, you know, to have had that kind of impact.

So, Kim, you mentioned masterminds, and I know that you guys have a really cool take on masterminds, and I'd love for you to kind of dive into that for a moment.

We do have a special mastermind, and it is couples, husband and wife dentists, because of our dynamics as husband and wife. And you want to keep your spouse and you want to do dentistry. So we have a group and there are six couples and we are all married to each other and we all practice in the same office. So we all meet three to four times a year and share both the dynamics of being married and what that means and how we make decisions. And then we also shared about dentistry.

Do you guys have a name for your group?

No, not specifically. But, you know.

There'S so much, I mean, aside from over the years and out now, two of the couples were, we went to school with, with. And they were couples that kind of. Actually one of them was married while we were in dental school. And then the other ones like us got married or actually the other one got married in school, we got married after school. And so but the dynamic of.

You know, us sharing, because all of us have different, you know, continued education experiences and, you know, team experiences. And so. And it was through us going to dental boot camp and through Steve Anderson that and his encouragement of starting a mastermind that we said, okay. And so we contacted all of our friends and then. And, you know, created this mastermind. And it, you know, it was designed to be social as well as, you know, kind of clinical. And so there was work that each couple was responsible to do prior to coming to the Mastermind. And we would have the mastermind at different locations depending on time of year and whatnot.

But it was very powerful, and everybody really prepared, and so everybody had something to share and to put in.

It was as much giving as taking in a lot of instances. And so occasionally we would have a guest speaker, somebody like. We had Dr. Tom come and speak one time and a friend of mine on the insurance side.

So. Yeah.

Well, each couple would take the next meeting and plan the agenda and what we're going to do and where we were going, the social side and the meeting side. So what we had to bring. And so it always stayed organized, and no one ever left thinking that they didn't get enough out of it.

You know, what I'm taking away from this part of our conversation is that you guys have created and put into your lives intentionally things that continue to make yourselves better people, better husband and wife, better father and daughter, I mean. Yeah. You know, and mother and daughter. So it's really cool. And I think that for our listeners, you know, they. Six couples that they've built this group around. That's pretty. Sounds pretty doable, you know.

Oh, it truly is. And, you know, again, this all was born out of dental boot camp. And so, you know, it's kind of hard for you to. Because the connections that were made when we were doing that, you know, were really pretty intimate. You got to know people and. And so was. So it was, I think, really key, you know, because.

You know, like, for two of the couples, it was. We went to school, we knew them. We had gone through dental school with them. So you really know them. And one was her former roommate. And so you knew these people. So, you know, I think.

It'S. It was easier to start that group up with people like that.

Right, right, right, absolutely.

Than people you don't even know at all. And you're kind of have to sit and first meet and like, and get to, you know, is there a thing, you know, do I want to know you? You know, and, and, and truly, because, you know, you know, and Dennis, sometimes how, you know, how we can be is, you know, well, you know, are they up to our standards or, you know, and it's just like, you know, we can just learn so much from each other and so. Yeah.

So how long have you guys been doing this for? How many years?

Oh.

Wow.

Started our first mastermind. Yeah, I would say, yeah, maybe, maybe 20 years ago. 19 years ago.

And we've had a little change because of either early retirements, other situations, moving away and we've had one or two new couples come in, but it doesn't take long to get that comfort feeling going and everybody trusts. It's nice.

Oh yeah. It's tight knit group.

So yeah. And you know, you know, two, two out of the three have, are completely out of dentistry now. Have retired.

One, one is on actually kind of on their way out actually went through.

Went the corporate route, corporate kind of buyout route as far as retirement and so, so yeah, so it's.

Well now we have to have Tyker start a group and maybe she'll just invite us to be part of her.

She'.

Yeah, when you think about it, that's a different, you know, you know, child, parent, you know, because that, that's a different, it truly is a different dynamic. So.

But that's not nearly as common as, as husband, wife.

Yeah.

Dentist.

Yeah, I, Yeah, because it's hard.

Yeah, it is hard. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so and I had a handful of friends in dental school where they knew like with just family dynamics. I think I'm not going home to practice with mom or dad, I'm going to go find my own practice or associate for someone else. And I get it.

And in some ways I can relate to that. You know, just as far as, you know, I, where I grew up, I really didn't have a desire to go back and practice dentistry there. I wanted, you know, especially when I first came down to north San Diego county, just fell immediately in love and went, I have to live here. This is where I want to be. And but yeah, it's, it's. You have the, the mastermind, you know, the. I tell you just.

If you. I'd be interesting to pull some of the most productive offices in the country and the ones that I know.

Personally that do mastermind are, that are some of the most productive, you know, offices in the country, statistically. Absolutely.

It takes that type of person that even wants to be a part of a mastermind to begin with.

Yeah, yeah. And you want to, want to learn, be open. Like I don't know it all and I can get stuff from other people that I'm missing, I'm not seeing, you know, or I haven't heard just because all of our experiences are a little bit different. Different. And so. So, yeah, so it's. And. And again, going back to that, your continued education experiences, it was. It was through that initially that opened the door for me to experience Kois and. Which I was just so. You know, I've been so grateful that. That I had that opportunity because he really changed. Changed my whole.

Perspective on how I do things and just gave me. Gave me confidence that, you know, and to do the things that I can do now.

Well, we're coming at the end of our time here. Is there anything else that you guys feel are important for our listeners to. To know about you guys or your journey?

I. You know, I would say for us, it's. It's. You know, I've never felt as though I've ever arrived as far as my profession and my education and. And the people that I still look at that have been doing this as long as I have that are still enjoying what they do and having fun, feel the same way. You know, they're. They're always engaged in learning, learning more. You never get to the point where you, you know, everything, and. And I think for me, that's what's. What's kept things fresh. Like I said, you know, going up to Kois every year and reconnecting there and some of these other organizations.

It'S just invaluable. And.

You know, and you're always being exposed to different viewpoints and kind of looking through different set of glasses, and I think that's real key. But.

Yeah, for the younger docs, it's. It's. You have to invest. You have to invest in the quality if you want the quality if you want to be that. And so that's kind of my. You know, my. Been, my experience and my recommendation, so.

Kim Piper, I would say find a mentor. I've been blessed to work with two and to have access to a whole legacy network that they have already spent decades building. So that's been something I'm super grateful for as far as it's okay. And patients respect that. When you walk into something and you can see this is big and complex, don't just fake it till you make it with them. Like, tell them, you know what? This is super complex. I can't give you a treatment plan today. I'm gonna sit down with my mentor and talk through it and make sure that your care is done right and done right the first time, and it's okay. As a young dentist, you. I have found when I am straightforward with my patients, and say I need to sit down with Dr. Dingworth or Dr. Corrigan and talk about this before I can commit to treatment with you. They receive it so well as opposed to trying to fumble your way through it because they feel that they know. So I found the having a mentor and just being very, very transparent with patients makes all the difference.

It's really cool.

And I think the masterminding with two sets of people in your community not to see other dentists as a threat, but to have them by your side, you can count on them, you can refer to each other, you can see their patients for emergencies and spending a lot of time with your specialists and getting to know them, asking them questions, having them always have your back, it's invaluable. And we've learned so much from our specialists. But then our like minded other dentists that we see as equals and we learn from them and to meet with them at least four times a year and mastermind and just bring step to the table just like we're sitting around here and throwing out topics and subjects and magic happens. There's just so much information that we share with each other because we really aren't in competition with each other.

That's true.

But you guys are so awesome. The dynamic of the Dankworth family, if it didn't come through on this podcast, this is awesome. I really enjoyed my time with you guys. I really did. Thanks for coming. Thanks for being on the show.

Thanks for having us. It's. Yeah, it's been fun. It's been fun.

Great day.

Thanks.