3D Design at Adidas

Hello and welcome to another episode of Fashion Made. Today I have the absolute pleasure of having Lotta Djurica, the design director from Adidas, on the phone, and we're going to dive straight into it today. Lotta, Adidas were obviously one of the very first implementers of 3D in the apparel and footwear industry. Can you tell me when this journey started?

Somewhere around 2010 or something like that, we have like started the first discussions that we should, could it be ever possible to have any kind of program that does 3D for apparel? So, and then through that we had different vendors and one of them was Browzwear and I got to meet with them and discuss with them and And there that started that they then actually named the software after my name.

That was my next question.

So they did actually do that. Yeah, they did. Because the thing is that, yeah, it was wonderful. Like it, it was such an early phase. We really quite didn't know what it could be. And then because I had had quite a strong apparel knowledge had been before Adidas, like freelancing and responsible of a very, yeah, kind of work-intensive collections in my home country. So I was quite clear what it should be and shouldn't be, and then made it quite like that we don't need too fancy things, but for apparel, this and this and this would be enough now for the beginning at least. So that's kind of still the interface, how it is set up. So there's like, uh, material selection, color, uh, then also the pen tool that you, how you create that. Um, it was more like that using the pen tool rather than all kinds of complicated maps or things that might pull people off, but it was just like kind of having the mannequin up in 3D, and then you can kind of sketch over, over as if you would do it anyway on your sketchpad. So that was the— there were many things, very many things that kind of I maybe gave the impulse that this, I think rather keep it like this than try something else. So that was the conversation around that, and then was kind of silence for a few years. Of course, I didn't know what exactly how would it be, and then at And in a couple of years' time, then suddenly we had the program and, and we started testing it. So that's then why it is only like 2014 or '13 or something like that when we have the first time started to use the program.

Okay. And you joined in 2006, so you were just doing obviously normal design. At what point did you start thinking, okay, 3D is the future?

Well, it was very much really like kind of this futuristic thinking. Of course, it went hand in hand. The initiative came first from our footwear designer, who was managing like the creative director of our company. So it was as well seen more that it's more likely that we will achieve it faster for footwear because footwear is like more, of course, like, yeah, it's more compact object than apparel. But yeah, I didn't really quite know what to expect. We just kind of then started to try it out and only through the first pilot seasons maybe I would then have really finally realized that, oh my gosh, this totally can change the way we will design in the future. But then, you know, see that it's been years, so it's still I've realized that that change seems to take really ages before it really totally takes over, but I think it will at one point.

You have to find the balance though, right? I mean, you can't ever completely take over analog.

Yeah, no, analog not, but the way how we have used to work in, like, in the 2D environment, like, for example, Illustrator has been the tool that came in at one point, and then it took over the whole industry. I started before Illustrator, so we didn't have that. We— I just have learned how to create flats with vector graphic during my, like, professional career.

Okay.

And then, and then I could see that this will be the next generations, how the industry will change with the 3D, because it of course does give more more depth and accuracy and so many benefits that maybe the other way of working doesn't. But now what the biggest obstacle at the moment is that, you know, we need to educate so many people how to use it. And yeah, it just like, because it will kind of, the program is yet though that complicated that you can't like just have one unit create something and then the next one would go back to analog. It needs to be like, actually every function need to somehow do their part. And I think that is kind of the one of the biggest, uh, reasons why it doesn't pick up so fast, especially big companies having, um, you know, like they need to, they need to be so fast in their production, uh, cycles, there's no time really to kind of, to have huge training sessions. So it's kind of like some, some smaller teams can pick faster than really big, huge organizations.

Yeah. Do you think you guys are doing that quite well right now? Cause, um, I've listened to a lot of talks and done a bit of research that obviously being one of the first starters of using 3D. You've allowed yourself to bring it in, in a lot of different areas across the supply chain, right?

Yeah. Well, it is, but I still feel as well, like as a company, we're still in a pilot phase because we have quite many different projects, how we are trying to test out how we could do it in different ways, which is fine. But what I'm kind of seeing that there's not yet like a one standardized way of working. That this is expected and this is how we roll. And I think that some companies, the smaller companies maybe have already reached something like that. I could imagine, of course, I'm not so involved with them, but I think that for us, I still feel like that we don't have like a one standardized process yet.

I'm not sure if anyone does.

Yeah. Nobody, maybe not yet does.

It's still so fresh.

It's so fresh. And which I think that's, that's kind of like the really quite fun part about being now at this time in in this era, because actually now it's still like a dream phase. Yeah.

So you're developing a standardized process of working though?

No, we're trying, but it always, you know, it, um, yeah, it still is in making. It also, uh, the business model changes as well, like depending what kind of business model you have, you need a different process maybe. But there are different ones. For example, we have had for graphic tees one that, uh, obviously, of course, the product itself is very similar from next season to next season. So it's not really a product design, uh, related process, but we can still get great results using the 3D. Or we have had ideas how to do like modular, uh, products. That would have only like modular library where you change parts of the product.

Okay.

And there are different kind of projects going on that, yeah, like are tested out.

I kind of want to ask what's not going well?

Well, what I think is not going well is exactly this, that like a lot of people all the time You know, it's the nature of this kind of bigger organizations that still there's an exchange in the team structures, or the people change, or the business model change, or the manager changes. So that's why then to keep up a very complicated process further developing, if you lose the ones who were the enthusiastic about it, then maybe the whole team will go through recession and drop back again a couple of years if they lose the know-how. Because the know-how is now so like, it's kind of like isolated between some, some real good pioneers in the teams, I think. And that's what I mean with this, that it's not standardized. So once it becomes so that this is the norm, this is the basic skill set that you need to have, and then no matter what, then of course It will not kind of like drop totally the knowledge of a team.

Yes.

Because they maintain like the same workflow, but now where it's still so improvised that, that yeah, some are really brilliant, but because they have some really brilliant individuals who might be like real experts, but then they might carry an entire team.

Yeah, this is why you want the standardized process and you can't, you can't get it because you don't have one. It's a kind of a vicious circle a little bit.

Yeah. Like, I think that's, that's just what I'm saying, that that's what is, what I would view it as, what is not going so well. I think that's, that's the part that is not going so well yet, but, but only because I'm like, I have an industrial design background. I always think like, like maybe that things have like some kind of longer-term process behind. Like, uh, so maybe that's just by the nature of how I am thinking that that's how I feel like that it should. Um, and also as if you're a team lead, it's easier for you to like kind of lead the team if you know, like, like this is, this is what we've got and now we can improve this and this and this and this. So. Yeah. So this, this, I think that this is one of the pain points. Also like for myself, if I have moved between teams and then I have been in a past team where it's a high knowledge, then I come to the next team, they have different knowledge, you know, and, and then how will I then can build again based on what I know and what they know and like, how can we make it work for that particular team?

Yeah.

Yeah. So that's kind of like in the, but that's like, I think complexity is in this very, very big organizations where I'm working and which is then not the case in smaller companies.

Yeah. So I can see what you mean. It would be easier to implement that standardization with a much smaller, I guess, everything, less departments, less people, less product ranges, maybe less pressure in some areas, maybe, maybe not.

That I could imagine. And of course, like, when a small company makes an investment, they drive it through their organization and they, they tend to stick with it.

Yeah.

But I think then it's like our benefit in a big company like this. I see like, it's like so many departments, like, and so many different styles of product that is created in this kind of big company that I can just kind of like go around and find out all the time new things that I have never discovered before, just because there is a small group of a pocket of people who have developed something, uh, what they need for their need.

Yeah.

And, um, yeah, so, so there's like a lot of know-how here and that's why then we kind of like every now and then reach a pearl somewhere. Uh, yeah.

I understand. You have these pockets of sort of technical know-how or these pockets of brilliance almost.

Yes.

And it's having the ability to share that brilliance maybe with other groups easily.

Yeah.

Is it more of a, is this more of a sort of data visualization or maybe a product lifecycle management, data management sort of set of processes that you need to work on, or is it something else?

I think it's a, it's a It's really about what do we strategically want to achieve and when, where do we need these tools for? Like, is it for the creation phase? Is it like impress and sell in new ideas internally or externally? Is it kind of cut down the process and sampling and materials and virtually create product before investing into the real good stock. It's really like, what do we want to achieve? And partly I feel like this company want to, want to do everything, but they want to do everything for sure. And then, but, but yeah, like, like I said, it's kind of like the very rich phase of experimenting every, on every direction. And then out of that, you know, I guess in the next years or so, then we will find out that, hey, these are the work streams that we totally will support and are the most beneficial for this company.

A lot on your plate.

Yeah. I mean, like, personally, I'm very enthusiastic and I think I would have like a lot of visions how to bring this whole idea going further, especially as I've been part of it from the very birth. But I feel like, for example, the size of this company is too big for me as an individual now to, because I have my other job too, like my real job, to really, to really kind of drive, drive through all the visions that I have in my mind. Sometimes I really like, so, yeah.

So implementing 3D is just your part-time work.

Yes. Yes. It is really like just, just on the sideline. I really, yeah, I bring it up where I can. And, and, uh, but yeah, like I really, my, my other job here is, uh, completely different actually. I'm in, I'm in charge of like the, the, like the direction, the design direction, uh, steering of our business unit. And I'm in charge of the color and material and graphic and, uh, I've got a lot of team members. So I just really want to, you know, I'm like kind of a communication link within the company who steers the direction going forward. So that doesn't have natural, like, by sense, like totally necessarily to do with 3D, but I see that as well to be part of the whole, the whole, you know, and it enables as many possibilities and solutions that I'm already thinking now. How can I, how could we, you know, like use it, use it for, you know, this kind of larger topics, like not just create a product. Because now what I've been the last, first, like the first 5, 6, 7 years, been really concentrated on creating a product itself, just one product by product. But now when I am on a larger role, I really think that how can we, for example, use 3D and look at merchandising, like how does the whole store look like already before goods are being produced? How will, you know, things like that. So I think by nature, you know, these tools have so much potential. Because if you think of architecture, that's what architecture companies do all the time.

Do you see that as a barrier to the evolution of 3D?

No, I actually think that we are able to go more and more, like I call it almost hyper-realistic, that I feel like that with the help of these tools, you can create like textures and finishes and, and even like whether it's a trim or material or the weight of a material, the drape, all that you can create even more realistic than the real is. So it's somehow like kind of scary, like it, cause you know, like you can create even every single stitch of, of an embroidery that you can like really literally see. And even if you would take a photograph, Sometimes the render is like more brilliant than, than, you know, I can see, cause you can zoom in so much into the detail. So I feel like that, that once, you know, and even this is something where we face internally, a lot of discussion, like if we could reach such a level of like prestige, those, those can be really used in, in, yeah. Consumer-facing and, and really basically replace that kind of catalog images that we have used to. And, and they would already kind of communicate all the performance benefits that you would basically get by like seeing what, you know, what can some naturally like, like for example, reflectivity, for example, let's take. Okay. And that's of course like a, product benefit that it's visual. So that's something what you could probably illustrate with the help of the tools better than you can do in a photograph. So I think that that can be brought to a very high level and I don't see that that's no distraction. On the opposite, I think that's one of the quite, um, like the tempting lures of these tools because they really, these renders have picked up such a level of detail that you can't actually create with anything else. Like you can create leather or you can create crinkle or transparency that you could never like, probably like it would take ages to try to draw or illustrate or something like that. So, so I think that, that's kind of like one of the, yeah, let's say like benefits. Yes, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of the scary but great benefit.

It was scary, but you can't do without it anymore.

Yeah, and the scary is exactly this, that, you know, like sometimes they're so really like hyper-realistic that it kind of almost like, like, yeah, like, like stops you or pulls you up, like kind of like it over, over saturates your, your senses. Yeah, because it, it is like probably more brilliant than ever any product can in the real life be. So there your renders look like incredibly, like they have some sort of fantasy already to them.

Yeah. Do you find it hard to balance this, your two lives here with your, your 3D, let's call it evangelism, you know, your promotion of 3D within Adidas and your other role as a design director, which is, you know, it, 3D isn't necessarily the main thing there, you know, it's all about the direction of Adidas's sort of future when it comes to design and all of the things that you said.

Yeah.

Do you get those two hats mixed up sometimes or do you find it quite easy to jump from one to the other?

No, well, yeah, like, of course, sometimes, you know, like, it's fine, it's all quite fine and good, but sometimes I do get this feeling like, Oh, I would have so much more to offer. And then, but, but yeah, but it's like as well, like you have to have like patience and, and very much diligence in this job. Like I used to be a product designer myself, so I know how big nerves you have to have, like from the first idea, like it takes sometimes 2 years before the product is finally out there. So it's, you kind of like learn that by nature in this industry. And I know that being part of some bigger ideation or work stream or somehow like it, it just is usually a result of really many people coming together and then it becomes something. So I have a little bit of the frustration, but at the same time, I'm looking positive that it will somehow like emerge out from out there, like somehow, and I'm, that's why I'm staying active and and kind of alert because I feel like I'm curious all the time to hear what's going on because I feel like maybe I have something to add to that conversation, or actually I learn by doing or hearing or listening. So because I see that it's so much evolving every time you go to visit those fairs, exactly like the PI, or so, so you kind of see Immediately like what the other people are doing, and then, and then you like kind of see like, oh well, that's maybe how this is going to evolve from here. Yeah, like with that technology and that technology and those combined, or that could create a result to that. Like it's beautiful to see some companies have, how far, how forward they are with virtual showroom or, or, or their their client experience, how they sell the product, or, yeah, or different to ours. And, and all kinds of ideas, search tools that we never have had before, or digital fabrics as well.

Um, do you guys using any of that?

Yeah. So we scan all the fabrics ourselves, but I already realized that how the fabric suppliers are looking into this, that they as well see that I was like, all right, they should be actually, uh, provide— be providing virtual libraries already. And then how cool that could be that you could already start testing out fabrics. Um, yeah. So I really saw that this is as well where the, where the, probably the trend is going.

Yeah. I saw, um, the fabricant who do who use time as well, you know, it's not just a stable image, but it's a moving virtual piece of clothing.

Yes.

Which I think is certainly the, maybe the next step for 3D is, well, I guess you would call it 4D because you're adding another dimension.

Yes.

Being time in there. And I think that's quite exciting as well.

It is really exciting to like really have like, I think there was some kind of art exhibition in Holland by some art school. They had like, like exactly the materials. They had like really physical materials in the space, but also it was that they had produced in 3D and then you could quite like go through like an exhibition of different materials. Yeah, like, and just simply like look at their drape and colour and, you know, light reflection and all those things. Yeah, in this new dimension.

It must be interesting. And obviously it's very relevant for you in your role to keep on top of what's going on because these technologies are developing so quickly.

Absolutely. And that's why, I mean, Of course, once we pick on, pick on those things, they can have huge impacts.

Yeah.

Um, also I think that hopefully like ecological impacts that we don't produce things that are too, uh, yeah, like toxic for that. We can see like them already analyze them upfront in 3D, whether it makes sense or not and all that kind of thing.

So again, super interesting stuff.

It is super interesting stuff. It feels like that this field is definitely developing with a fast pace.

Um, and I guess it's all because of 3D, right?

Yeah, I think so too. I think that, yeah, just by the nature of these programs are, are now like available, then it pushes us automatically, like just to look and transform further. How can we move on?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, it's really, really fascinating stuff. And, um, You know, you've got two huge jobs there. It's so well done to you. Yeah, it does seem a bit crazy.

It's crazy.

Yeah. So thank you for taking the time out of your crazy life to share a little bit with us and the audience about 3D Adidas. It's really interesting.

Thank you so much.

All right, Lotta, well, look, I'll let you get back to it and yeah, have a lovely day and we'll see you soon.

Yeah, thank you very much.