Creator of Shudu, Cameron-James Wilson - The Man Behind The Model

Woo!

Woo! Woo! So I moved out of London about 5, 6 years ago. I was just totally sick of living there, and I moved back home with my mum. Like I said, I moved into my— the shed in my mum's garden. I was only supposed to be there for a year, ended up being there for 3.

Yeah.

So, and in that time I went from back and forth between like, what do I actually want to do in my life? You know, I had that kind of crisis that you have, like, what am I actually doing with my life? I'm in a shed. Yeah. How do I get out of here? And I knew I didn't want to do fashion, fashion photography. I tried, like, I did my own shoots, I flew out to Trinidad and spent a month there shooting.

In Trinidad?

Yeah.

Oh, really?

It was absolutely incredible, but just confirmed more and more that my heart wasn't there. And I never thought that I would be able to learn 3D. I just didn't think I was that capable. But I picked it up, and in 3 months I'd created Shudu. Wow. So, never touched 3D, and then in 3 months I created Shudu, and she went viral. And it was just, it's mind-blowing to me.

Yeah, it really is incredible. I mean, all amazing tech projects start in a shed in your parents' garden.

Exactly. I think it just has to do with a point in time when technology is so accessible. I love to game, so I had a gaming PC, which obviously is great for rendering and stuff like that. And it allowed me to kind of very easily get involved in 3D.

Yeah, the imperfections in your models are quite important, right?

So when I first created Chudu, she was pretty much flawless, and I started more and more to add like new imperfection, natural flaws I like to call them, into her kind of skin. Working in fashion photography, I've done, retouched thousands of images, spent half my life behind a computer, so I'm very knowledgeable of what the kind of things I need to add because I'm so used to taking them away. One of the first things I bought in 3D, because the program that I use, Dash, you can buy assets, was peach fuzz because absolutely in every beauty image I've ever had to done, I've had to take away peach fuzz from the sides of people's face. So I was like, right, I need to add peach fuzz because that's the one thing that makes people look real. So yeah, so I'm very knowledgeable on kind of what what needs to be taken away, so I was very knowledgeable about what needs to be put back in. But it had a really huge positive impact on my mental health because I was no longer associating those things with, "Oh God, I'm gonna have to take this away." I'm actually looking at that fine lines and stuff and thinking, "How do I put that in?" That's really interesting, turning a negative into a positive.

Yeah. Have you heard of the uncanny valley?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so I was talking to a guy called Adam Peacock, who is at UAL. Have you met him or heard of him?

No, no.

He's a really cool guy and deals with genetics and architecture and design, and a lot— he's sort of a post-disciplinary designer, he calls himself. Really, really interesting guy, and he was telling me about the uncanny valley and this, this mental perception of what is real and what is not. I just thought that was such an interesting thing as well, and obviously it applies to this?

Yeah, I mean, some people have even said that some of the work that I've done is like post-uncanny valley, and I think it's to do with the fact that I don't really aim for realism, like total realism. My inspirations come from fashion, which are already kind of in the fantasy kind of area, you know, they're not really realistic interpretations of real life, and I think the more human you try to make something, the more kind of creepy it gets. Like, I made a digital baby and that was just awful. You definitely like, you definitely kind of touch on that, what I do, and it's a struggle.

Yeah, I know that you were saying that people are now trying to make things, it's so easy to make something look real that actually they want to make people realise that actually this is a, well, I was going to say fake, but how would you call it?

Digital person.

Yeah, digital person.

Unreal, you can say fake, it's fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, and people are trying to make their audience know that actually this is a digital person, it isn't a real person.

Well, like I touched on as well, like, you know, there was a campaign where Chudu didn't look as real, but it didn't— it doesn't bother me. I like, I'm not pretending she is real, and there's going to be cases where she doesn't look as real, and there's going to be cases where she does. It really depends on what we have to do, you know what I mean? The point is we can achieve, like, very, very realistic look now. And adverts like we saw, one of the car adverts, they clearly had purposely made the model, the digital model, look less real because they want people to know that it's a virtual person. Yeah, I think it comes back to that level of transparency that I was talking about earlier.

Yeah, can you touch on that as well for this interview?

I mean, yeah, yeah, that, yeah, yeah, I, I just think it's so important to be transparent. I think With technology, there's this kind of instinctive fear of it, I think, that a lot of people have. They generally think, "Oh God, it's bad," or all this. But if you actually show people the process of how it's done, you know, if you actually put a face to that technology and you tell a story and you make it personal, I think people connect with it more. And that's one thing that I've really tried to do, is to be very honest, open, and transparent about my journey. And people have been much, much more positive about that. Even feel personal connection with me. Like, I've made friends through Instagram, which is great for me as well. I'm not really that social, so it's great. I think transparency is always a good thing.

Yeah, being honest.

Yeah, the only people who aren't honest have got bad intentions, do you know what I mean? Exactly.

Why, yeah, there's no point in hiding anything.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. That's really nice, actually. To have that kind of social positivity in one's own personal life from the work that you do. I guess it makes it even more rewarding.

Yeah, I mean, I really, really try to do things ethically with what I do. I feel that there is potential that you could abuse this technology, digital models. I feel you'd like— you could, and you could take things away with it, but that's not my intention. I actually want to work and find a way that everyone can kind of collaborate and work together and grow together. And I think that is the only way that it will continue for many years to come. I think if you tried to use this for bad, people would just have an adverse reaction to it and it would kind of stop dead in its tracks.

I think you're right, yeah. We see a lot of collaboration in this industry, you know, more than others. Fashion industry seems so open to collaboration. I think that's a really good thing.

Yeah. I think it's what the consumer wants to see, and at the end of the day, this is powered by the consumer, and if the consumer has a negative response to something that you're doing, you can't really do that anymore. So I have to be very conscious of what consumers want when it comes to digital models, and they want transparency, they don't want to feel like they've been deceived, they want to be inspired, and a lot of them want to learn and think, "Oh, how can I actually get involved with 3D?" which is really cool.

Yeah, people love a good story as well. Obviously, you try and do storytelling through your work. How do you do that with a still image?

I think it just comes back to my fashion photography background. I'm used to kind of creating editorial content where you kind of tell stories, and also just with the little narrative I can underneath the image. I try to collaborate with different people, like I collaborated with a real model. I recently collaborated with somebody who draws African prints, African face paint, sorry, and then I also collaborated with a designer who provided me with some fabric, you know, so you tell a story through the people that you collaborate with, and I also use my Instagram story itself to tell a lot of my background. I get quite personal on there sometimes, and it just gives a real face and personality to this.

Yeah, you've created an alien supermodel called Galaxia.

Why? I love sci-fi. I absolutely love sci-fi and Galaxia to me, I have a huge backstory to that and I think I do really love storytelling and character building and that for me is like a world that I want to create. A bit like James Cameron's Avatar or something like that, you know, or Valerian. Like those are movies I absolutely love because I love to escape. I love to kind of just be transported to a different world. I play a lot of online games and things like that, and I just like to kind of detach myself a little bit sometimes and drift off. And again, it's what I do for a living with digital models. I mean, it's a fantasy world, and I don't pretend that it isn't, you know, and I don't think there is any real need to pretend that it's not, you know. There's nothing wrong with drifting off to some kind of fantasy world, but I just What I'm trying to do is make that fantasy world kind of push through into kind of reality a little bit and be very realistic and believable. We call it in gaming like breaking immersion, you know, I want people to be immersed in my world. So yeah, so Galaxia has got a huge story, but I'm not quite ready to kind of develop it. She's kind of on the back burner.

Okay.

But if somebody came along and was like, "We want to book Galaxia," I'd be like, "Yeah, for sure, that would be amazing." Yeah. But we'll see. She's there.

Maybe.

She's there.

How tall is she?

Galaxia? Gosh, Shudu is like 5'11", 6'2".

Okay.

So I can't imagine how tall Galaxia is, probably. I think in the story people are much, much taller anyway then, because we like grow, so we've gotten taller throughout centuries, so they're much, much taller anyway, so she'll be huge.

Is she based in the future?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's based on the future.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because I mean, obviously she's otherworldly, but I guess it raises an interesting point about time. Shudu is potentially timeless, you know, infinite, and I guess that's quite an interesting thing and sort of relates to sci-fi as well a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, with Galaxia, one of the things that I wanted to add is that she is so old she doesn't remember who she was. And one thing I read is that if we were to live forever, we would eventually not be ourselves anymore because of the way we change and grow and develop as people. We would actually be a totally different person to maybe who we were like 300, 400 years ago. So I know that's a bit kind of far off, but again, it's just exploring that kind of concept of time. And Shudu kind of touches on that with the fact that people ask is she going to age? And that's an actual choice, you know, I can actually choose whether she ages. She could become younger, she could become older looking, but she has aged in her own way. And I love that the 3D world has a different— time has a completely different effect on it. It's a different kind of aging, but it still matures in its own way.

Well, yeah, because that's the thing, aging in terms of looks and maturing in terms of maybe personality as well.

Yeah.

Have you got plans for how she might mature, or do you think that's going to be a reactive process?

So, Shudu's kind of matured naturally, like I said, I've added different natural flaws and imperfections, but again, like I said in the speech, that I want to develop her backstory with somebody who has an authentic kind of experience, kind of has experience of being in someone like Shudu's shoes and can tell that story authentically, and I think it's important to, again, support other people Be inclusive and collaborate with people who have talents. I'm not a writer, you know, why would I write a story? I'm great at building characters and I'm great at coming up with concepts for stories, but I don't think I'm a writer in that sense, so why not actually work with somebody who has authentic experience?

And you are working with someone, right?

Yeah, yeah, we just started working. I did a casting call on Instagram. I just love that. I just love how you can just be like, "Hey guys, I'm looking for a writer," kind of like this, and I got like 30 or more responses, which is a lot, like I felt, and some of them were amazing. And yeah, we've got some great candidates.

Amazing. Yeah. And you're still going through that selection process?

Yeah, I wanted to— my idea is not to necessarily have one person. There is one person that I think is amazing, but I want Chudu to always be like a collaboration, like almost like a collective rather than a singular or an individual. Like I said in my presentation, she has— different models have actually stepped in and been a stand-in model for Shudu. I love that, I love that different models can actually bring different things, and I think different writers and different people with different experience also have something to give. So I definitely see Shudu as like a collective experience, and only through 3D can we create someone like that who isn't an individual, but is almost lots of people.

Yeah, that's really interesting. How many models have you got?

I think there's like 6 that we currently represent, but there's like some that are behind the scenes and being worked on and things like that, so there's definitely more kind of out there.

Stuff in the pipeline.

Yeah, for sure.

And Shudu to me seems like the queen, you know, she's sort of the She's a pioneer.

She's like our flagship model. Everything I have, I put into kind of Shudu.

When you go and work on new ideas, do you first, you're like, I go to Shudu first?

Sometimes, it really depends because they have different personalities. Shudu is very high-end, but she's also very classical and traditional in kind of styling and things like that. She also has huge kind of cultural references and things that are in her work. Whereas models like Dani, I've done some much more kind of out-there concepts with her. She seems kind of more malleable to certain other things, like I put her in kind of like sci-fi stuff, which wouldn't necessarily suit Shudu's character. So they all kind of bring something different. Again, Bren has a much more kind of casual style, very much more like lifestyle. So it really depends on the idea. When I have a new idea, I think of you know, "Oh, I want to do this with this person." Okay, yeah, yeah.

So it depends on the story that you're trying to tell, and then you book the model right for the story.

Yeah, but generally, yeah, if somebody wants something really that involves pushing tech boundaries, I would love it to be with Shudu, because she's, again, like, I think, the pioneer.

Yeah, yeah. I saw that you developed— one of your models is male, I think? You've just got one male model, right? Kofi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When did Kofi come about?

Kofi came about a few months ago. Gosh, I can't remember the exact date. Yeah, that's alright. He was actually somebody that I was working with to do with Galaxia's story.

Okay.

But then he developed into his own character, and I kept coming backward and forward from him because I didn't really know how I wanted to create him, and I decided to just make him a complete counterpart to Shudu. So what that means is he actually uses the same skin texture and everything as Shudu. And that was an actual conscious decision.

Okay.

Because I wanted them to be almost the same thing.

Are they brother and sister?

No, like, they're like Adam and Eve is how I describe them. And how Eve was created from a rib from Adam, Kofi is created from elements of Shudu. So, and I want to imagine them as almost the Adam and Eve of the kind of world, like the kind of digital world, the kind of first humans in a way. So it's all conceptual. Sometimes I do get a bit wrapped up in the whole, in the whole like, oh, I don't know, narrative of it.

You should do though, it's really cool, it's very cool.

People enjoy it, they enjoy it in the comments and stuff when I explain certain concepts.

I love it, honestly, honestly. I think it's such an original idea and the way that you're developing it I think is really admirable.

Thank you, thank you.

One of the things, one of the big reactions when you first created Shudu was obviously the racial thing. Yeah. She's black, you're a white guy. Some people called you out on it. I mean, what do you say to that?

This is one of the reasons why I really adopted the transparent and honest stance. At the end of the day, I put a face to kind of who I am. I don't say that I'm not who I am, and I don't say that I don't create Shudu. That's what I do, and if It's really up to people to choose whether or not to follow me or support what I do. I don't see anything— I think it's beautiful that me, as a white artist, created a Black woman. I don't think enough people actually do that, you know. I think white artists should be creating more depictions and positive uplifting depictions of women of colour. And that's something that needs to change within the industry. But some people saw it as a negative. It's not up for me to speak for them. Fair criticism. I took some of it on board. You can't take everything on board. Social media is a place where everyone gets to air their opinions and you can't really get overwhelmed. You just have to stay true to your mission as a person. And if people want to support that, they support that. If they don't, they don't. You know, you can't take it too personal. Yeah, absolutely. And you also just have to listen. Everybody deserves to have a voice. You listen and you decide for yourself if that's something that you agree with and want to kind of adopt.

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I think you've got a very positive outlook on it all and a very positive story, and I think people can really see that. Yeah. What is the importance of perceived race in digital models in general, really, forgetting the designer? Does it really matter in the future?

I mean, for me who plays a lot of games, I'm so used to people playing characters of different races anyway, or even genders, species sometimes.

Yeah, exactly.

Because I come from that gaming world, but you have to understand not everyone is so immersed in tech and not so used to that, you know. Yeah, I've seen people play black characters, white characters, females, you know, and in kind of gaming, these concepts are quite loose. You don't really think it's somebody trying to pretend to be that, it's just how they want their character to look, and I think that's going to change in the future. I think we're going to become more used to seeing people creating avatars of all all kinds of racism and stuff, and I think it's actually better, you know. Why— you don't have to have the labels that you were kind of born with, you can kind of move past it, and I think that's kind of positive. But again, like I said, not everyone is so on board, and that's fine. Some people might criticise it, but I, you know, I don't think it will be so important in the future.

Absolutely, I agree. You created Shudi. She's obviously the pioneer. I understand that she wasn't the hardest model to make though.

No, no.

There's Margot.

Yeah, there's Margot.

Why did Margot give you so much trouble?

Well, it wasn't trouble. So basically, obviously at the time Margot was created for the Balmain campaign. I was working alongside Balmain and also the Sunshine Company who did the production for the the campaign. And it wasn't trouble, it was just challenging my own beauty ideals. As an artist, I'm very tied to what I want, you know, I'm very passionate about what I believe in. I think it's right and I, you know, I have this right way of seeing things. And when people say, oh, you know, we want to make these changes and these changes, and you're like, oh no, it's not, she's, you know, it's challenging your beauty ideals, they're asking for things that you think, oh, it's not going to look good. But then you take them on board and you do it and you think, actually, you know, everybody has their own idea of beauty and adopting it, you know, and taking that on board and it's great. And I'm really, really proud of how Margot came out. And it taught me that actually collaborating with other people like Balmain and The Sunshine Company is important in creating diverse beauty. If I was left in charge of creating every single digital model in the world, people would be like, they all look kind of similar, you know. And that's a problem that we actually have, is that a lot of the models do have kind of similar looks sometimes. It's just because it's just me, and I don't think one person can create a diverse world of models. And that's one of the reasons why I like to inspire others to get involved in this.

That's really interesting because the diverse beauty, because they're all stunning, you know. Have you toyed around with making someone that's not, you know, a 10?

A 10. This is what I mean about inspiring others. Again, like, this is a fantasy world for me. I wanted to get involved with fashion because it is filled with beautiful people, and I don't lie about that. I don't say anything, you know, about that. Typically beautiful people, you know, tall and all of that. I don't lie that I'm not fascinated by that, and I think it's important that we have people with diverse opinions of beauty creating digital models and digital characters. People who do have a completely different view of me, of what their digital character should look like.

Yeah.

If you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's really, really important. So yeah, so for me, yeah, maybe one day, I don't know, whatever characters. I think there's people out there who are a lot better at creating very real-world kind of characters. I mean, there's some incredible 3D artists out there who can create characters that have lots and lots of natural flaws and narrative in their appearance, and, you know, very, very strong features and characteristics. There's amazing artists out there that do that already. Yeah. But I like to kind of focus more on, like, what I want to do.

Yeah, well, it's a thing of passion for you, and I guess if you stay true to yourself, then that's the main thing, I guess. Yeah. Finally, I just want to know if you're planning to do away with real-life models, No, not at all, no, I would never, no.

I mean, in fact, I have plans to immortalise them and scan them and actually create doubles of them and things like that, and actually I think it can be beneficial, you know, those are my kind of, that's what I think of models. I mean, I love models, again, that's why I got involved with fashion photography. They're muses, they provide the inspiration. At the end of the day, Shudu was inspired by models like Naomi Campbell and Alec Wek and Iman, you know, they were the muses that inspired Chudu. She wasn't born of nothing. So I wouldn't want to do— if I did away with models completely, then who's going to inspire other generations of digital models? And I think they go hand in hand. I think they can exist, coexist together really, really well, but only time will tell. I think you have to kind of— you can speak speak all this and say, oh, they can coexist, but you, you have to show. And I try to show through my work, like, how we can actually collaborate and how models, makeup artists, hairstylists all have something to give in the 3D world.

Yeah, well, it's really, really exciting. Thank you for speaking to us.

No, thank you for having me. No, it's been a really exciting day, so, so yeah, I've loved it.

Yeah, have you enjoyed the event?

I've really, really loved it. It's so amazing to see so many people with similar passions in one place. Like, I, again, I live in a small town, so coming here and seeing people who are all really inspired by similar things is amazing.

Kevin James, thank you so much.

No, thank you. Thank you very much. Everybody get up!