FASHION MADE: The Convergence of Experiences, Design and Technology

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Fashion Made. Today I have the absolute pleasure to be sat down with 3 of the leading minds in fashion, design, and technology, namely Anne Slohe, former fashion news director at Elle magazine for 18 years and now tech evangelist within the industry. Craig Crawford, founderpreneur of Crawford IT, as well as the former VP of IT strategy over at Burberry, and Harry Allen of Harry Allen Design and the creative director of the New York Design Pavilion, which is why we're all here today. Harry, I walked through the Design Pavilion in Times Square yesterday. It's an incredible experience. Just want you to tell me a little bit more about it, please.

One of the things about experience is that you need to be giving the public something fun to do or engaging to do, and the hard sell is not very well received. It needs to be a generous offering. You know, you need to give someone just this great experience that then they'll talk about and wanna share and everything, and then therein lies the magic. You get the share, but you don't get it if you're giving them the hard sell. You don't— and corporations in general wanna shoot themselves in the foot. They want a hard sell. Sell it. And so we're sort of there to help them craft that messaging and make sure they're doing something generous that people will want to share.

Can I just add to that? Because Harry, seeing it in Times Square, and I don't want to say competing with all of the digital billboards and everything, but I found that people found exploration throughout the thing very natural, and people just coming through Times Square were are enjoying it, and they might not necessarily know that it's all connected, but every installation where people could interact, they were, and they are.

All we have to do is put it up, and people fill it. So that, we have no problem with that. I mean, the messaging is interesting. We want people to know it's there, and that's a little bit hard, because people don't come, I mean, there are many people now, we have a lot of advertising and a lot of media partners this year, So there are people who are coming just for the design pavilion, to see the design pavilion. But most of the, I'll be honest, most of the people in Times Square, they're there to experience Times Square and all of its madness and the screens and all of that. So, and for those people, then how do you let them know what's going on? But honestly, if you get someone to sit in a great chair or to, interact with an installation that's something, you know, and they're just doing it very naturally, then I feel like we sort of have accomplished our mission also. Like they've come in contact with some great aspect of design that they'll take away. They'll remember that chair. They might buy that chair. They might say to someone else like, "Oh hey, yeah, I saw that in Times Square." So just getting people exposed to it is, I think, is important also. And then we're working on the messaging. Like how do you gracefully integrate it so people know where they are and know why they're there and know why they're doing what they're doing. But I think getting the people into it and interacting is really the first step to that.

Yeah, I guess being in Times Square helps.

Yeah, I mean, it's instant millions of people. So when it comes to retail, like that's where we're going with this conversation, you know, I always say, oh, like, you know, the pop-up as one imagines it is on some side street in SoHo. you know, and like maybe you can drag a few people down to come while you're there for a month. I mean, we've done— I've done pop-ups with— I do a line of products for a company called Areaware, and we had a pop-up one year in Port Authority, and everyone was like, "Oh, this is gonna be genius." You know, all these people come through Port Authority, and it was so hard to get people out of their path and into that, whereas in Times Square, like, we literally put it up in the walkways. Like, if you have an open end on it, people will just walk into it. I mean, you just— Well, they're open for experience.

They're coming to Times Square as an experience destination.

It's like you get to Times Square, okay, and you go like, "Oh, okay, I took my selfie with the screens." And then, what's next? So there really is this opportunity. You have a population that's looking to be entertained, and we're serving that purpose.

And I started talking to Harry Arrether. He reached out to me to bring in some fashion sponsors sponsors. We were speaking to Maramako about retrofitting an Airstream camper and working with AR and entertainment companies to help tell their story. So we'd actually embed films and stop-motion animation about the history of Maramako and the museum and the house in the forest. You could embed that into the fabric, some of their iconic prints, and then have those prints, you know, as awning shades and, you know, AstroTurf and have a big cookout for people to just come through and have, you know, a hot dog and some root beer. But then they could train their phone on the print and have the AR experience.

It's not hard to get people to engage. It's a pretty simple story. But I have to say, Times Square Alliance is so open to ideas. So they're, you know, and they're willing to try it out. We've done some, really crazy stuff on the plazas that, like for instance this year, this group of young designers, Mio, group of young designers, I keep saying that, they're like 3 years younger than I am, but I've just known them since they were kids, but they're from Philadelphia and they're doing this whole idea of office play or adult play, and so they've developed these seesaws that both go up and down and around.

Yes, yes.

And they're amazing, right?

They are amazing.

But they're also like a little bit dangerous, you know, like people who don't know what they're doing, you know, and actually kids get on it and fly off, which I think is so funny because if you're an adult, you're really cautious, so you sort of get in the rhythm and you have this beautiful experience. If you're a kid, you get on, you rattle around on it, and then all of a sudden you pop off over to the side. So it's like— but we have a rubber flooring down, and like they're willing to have this in Times Square. Like they're willing to— to allow that to exist, which I think is so great, you know?

[Speaker] Yeah, I mean, that's amazing to have such good, strong partnership, especially with someone like Times Square, you know? And there's so much retail, technology, fashion brands, you know, Times Square, especially as a foreigner, is basically the kind of archetypal representation of all of that. And retail's obviously having a really hard time at the moment. My question to you, And Anne, maybe you can answer this first, is how can technology save retail?

[Speaker:ANNE] Well, I think there's so many facets and ways in which it will save retail. And I think we're just seeing that. You're seeing a lot of the real estate developers talk about how they're gonna reinvent the mall and bring in, make it the center for the community by bringing in food and entertainment and retail. I think Craig can speak to how the actual retail— I mean, fashion— technology for fashion will facilitate the consumer experience and make it more fun. From my point of view, I'm excited about the entertainment aspect of it and engaging people. Whether you find yourself someday in a version of a mall that's one part Gattaca, one part Minority Report, and while you're waiting in line to get into your restaurant, you're actually on the 50-yard line of the Super Bowl. You're in it and it's around you. I mean, I do think that that is the future retail experience, and I do think developers are looking to create that. Obviously, from a biometric standpoint and from a waste and circular standpoint, I think there's, from say, sustainability point of view, I think that's very hopeful about reducing waste and making people feel better about consuming as they become more educated, which I think they will, and more conscious, which I think they are. I think certainly maybe not millennials. I don't think they're buying sustainability as much as we would have hoped, but I do think the next generation will. So I think that'll come into play. And I think that you had a very interesting point about— how when you were at Burberry and you had to build the store of tomorrow, essentially, you had to think about all the changes that were coming to make sure that you were able to adapt in your infrastructure. And I think that's something that retailers are grappling with now.

Yeah, I mean, it's heavy lifting. And the investment is substantial. And at Burberry, we knew we were going to be broadcasting. So we put a satellite dish on top of retail. We behave like a media brand, and we looked at digital asset management. How do we change the channel on the screens? The screen that's in children's wear today may be women's wear tomorrow. Store interiors move around. And you just can't take technology and take it off the wall and move it around. So the infrastructure on how we organize that and being able to reuse content, super important. And I think for this particular installation in Times Square, We looked at a lot of different technology options, and I think some of them we shelved to look at next year. Things like wayfinding, or experiences that are unlocked with your phone, but also tracking the movement of the crowd. I mean, because, like your reference to Port Authority, those are commuters on their way somewhere, and trying to get them to stop when they're already probably running late, or—

Yeah, exactly.

Whereas in Times Square, they're there for some sort of experience they don't even know, so—

People just come hang anyway. Yeah. Anyway, so you can— we can have them sit in our chairs or hang out in our spaces and shop in our, our stores rather than the stores that are already there.

That's right. So we did little bits this time, didn't we? I mean, we had the, the t-shirt designs that were all blippable, and so, you know, hold the Blipper app to that and, and get different designs and animations. Um, and then there were some— there were other Sponsor examples of really interesting tech and things. Avery Dennison had some interesting stuff in the pavilion as well.

Well, touched on retail a little bit this year between Duggal and Avery Dennison, and then we had the— there was a— you were a speaker at the design talk. So we touched on it a little bit. But I mean, it takes years to build these things up, and I've seen this over— the time. Like, you just get on a hot idea like the month before the Design Pavilion, and it's just not possible to make it happen.

Well, that's why we're looking into 2019. Some of the people that I'm speaking to— Adidas, and Mary Mecca, as I said— I would love to have an activation with them, whether it has to do with just highlighting a shoe and using AR to create some sort of experience. Experience for a customer. I'd also love to speak to them about participating in the idea of a virtual store, where a customer comes through and they experience the shoe in situ with some technological application layered on top of it. But then there's also the opportunity to customize and purchase. We've been talking about the idea of developing a virtual store. We'd love to get New York Magazine and The Strategist involved in something like that. That would be really exciting, I think, for consumers. Harry has— they host a dance party, which is a lot of fun. And one of the ideas that he had that he's kind of interested in, in terms of data, is this idea of getting an artist to partner with a data collecting company and turn those numbers into— well, you should speak about it because it was your idea. And I love the idea of the flash mob, of getting large numbers of people into Times Square.

Well, that's like, if you got everyone that passed through the design pavilion to do one small thing that all added up to something larger, you could build mountains, you know? So I sort of like, I keep thinking for, I mean, I think across many spectrum and we're sort of focusing on fashion today and the tech space around fashion, which I think is really interesting. I'm constantly trying to ideate around how to triangulate between sponsors, someone who's gonna pay for it, creative talent, and our needs, our needs to entertain or to provide shelter or, you know, is it a lounge? Is it a food experience? Is it a, you know, there's, I'm constantly trying to figure out what we need there in order for people to, you know, come and enjoy it. and that triangulation between all those entities, in the middle there's this sweet spot. So I'm constantly, you know, when I'm confronted with a new sponsor opportunity, having to ideate around it. So, and it's fun for me too. It's like a totally different head. You know, I'm normally like in my studio drawing things that will then get made by industry, which is a very long process. This is, I was gonna say actually, to continue this train of thought about, because I just got off onto a whole tangent. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] But about tech and how it's gonna save retail, right? I mean, I think tech can be hugely entertaining. It serves a lot of my needs at the Design Pavilion, but what I really think that's interesting is that the temporary nature of Design Pavilion in relationship to retail. And that in this space we can do anything. We're not tied to any brick and mortar. We're not tied— you can even get out of your brand space if you want to. You can, you can, it can really be anything, and that's to me is so much fun. Like, we have these 9 days. It's like, go for it, blow people's minds, and it's— you can commit to it as much as you want, and it can be an experiment. We can see If we try this out, will people engage? If we try out Blipper, and one of the things I learned this time is we really should have had a pad there that was all loaded with Blipper because getting people to download is an issue. So every time you try something new, and so that applies to retail. And people already have figured that out. I'm new to the rodeo.

[Speaker:JASON] But not everyone's figured it out. And I was gonna say what you've just said, and that is, it's a place to invent and a place to play.

Mm-hmm.

And technology's empowered a lot of that, but most of it's transparent, as it should be, because people don't wanna really be looking at screens or fiddling around with Wi-Fi or whatever. So, you know, every mobile pause system that you have there has infrastructure behind it. There's Wi-Fi for that space. You know, all of that stuff. Then what you've been able to do is just reinvent retail by playing and then seeing what works. I think the big unlock for us is going to be looking at what all the data says. That's the thing that then we turn into more industrial type activity where we say, "OK, well, we found this works out really well, so why wouldn't we look at doing that in a store that maybe isn't a pop-up but is—" Actually, maybe some of it, maybe some of what you learn is that people are really responsive to low-tech things also.

Yes, absolutely. We have this young designer from, he works in the Netherlands. He designed this, it's furniture that you neither sit on or lie on or stand on. It's actually, everything leans backwards, and so they're these leaning, like almost like leaning beds. Like fainting couches.

Yeah, exactly. Like fainting couches from the antebellum day.

And he has them there. He calls them anti-gravity, so it's like about sort of relieving stress, and actually apparently your heart rate lowers at that. It's— you're leaning back at an angle, and it's— I mean, they're filled from— Yes, people loved it.

People are loving that.

And it's so weird because it's this— meditative thing in the middle of Times Square, and then like you're sort of lying back on it, what you're looking at is all the advertisement, but like actually that's sort of interesting, right? Like if you're gonna feed someone information, maybe you need to give them— design can give them the posture or the— how does it get delivered? So that they're receptive, or you know, like that sounds—

Well, that's the magic mix I think everybody's realizing that the future of retail needs to embrace, which is the high with the low, the actual, like, you know, physical sensory experience, and then the technology comes in and makes the, the, the shopping part of it easy and seamless and customized.

I mean, eventually maybe it will all just go become embedded in some way, you know, like it's, it doesn't—

Like a chip in our brain? Yeah, that's what you want.

No, no, I think it's coming.

I mean, even if you look at what— but they're talking about how do you revive retail on Bleecker Street, which we all know has been decimated by high rents. And I know that the Brookfield people, their temporary fix for it is to think about taking over the entire street and bringing in not just pop-ups, but maybe we can do a week-long flower activation or just to create like cute customer experiences that are, yeah, temporary and become rarefied because of their temporariness.

Right. And therefore a draw for people to come in and be part of.

And it's the magic of theater, right? Like why is theater so special? It's because it like happens. And it's ephemeral. Yeah, it's ephemeral. And so, I mean, I think we have to look to all of these things. Like I feel like a little bit the whole Times Square thing is like, I feel like Barnum, —like we're putting on a show. Like, I want it to be really high design, but I also want people to be able to engage with it. So you're sort of stretched. But actually, that's an interesting place to be in, right? And actually, things like the Zoo Studio piece, like, it actually does it, right? Like, it's a great piece of design that everyone can engage with. And then I've done my job. And it's also sort of fun, because all day long, people are getting on and off of it. It has that temporal quality. So I think there are ways for all of this to merge in— for the time being, until it all— until the dust settles, I think this is a really interesting forum to play around.

And I don't know that the dust is gonna settle. I think part of retail's problem is the dust did settle and it became routine and boring. Formulaic. Yeah, and formulaic. And nobody wants that. And so I think What's happened with the design pavilion is really a model for what retailers can look at and take from and play. And that, you know, visual merchandising is an important part of retail.

It's the magic of the narrative.

Yeah, and it's been so many stores, it's just become static and boring, or doesn't even really exist, or it's not curated anymore.

I think Carrie said it, it's become the hard sell. Yeah, yeah. Disengaged the minute they're being—

Yeah, I mean, I think the hard sell was like, it's been okay for a while, like it's been okay for a while, like the whole monogramming and all that stuff, you know, like, or that the whole luxury, like, I have this bag. The status, yes. The status and like—

It's predicated, I suppose, it's a success on people's insecurity and striving psychology, which, you know— Hey, listen, it worked. It worked.

It worked.

Well, it worked. It worked. It worked. And now we're entering a new— —era where, you know, the upcoming generations, you know, they don't want to be a part of that sort of kind of greediness. And they actually, you know— It's about generosity. It is about generosity. And they want to be more altruistic, but they also want to have fun. And then, you know, they want to have a sense of humor again. You know, I think the problem with retail and fashion is that it just became so humorless.

The one other thing that I'm interested in in terms of retail though is actually the hands-on, you know, the making of, the measuring of, the, you know, and all of that stuff. Like, the reason that you go to a store, like a high-end store, is for the experience in a way. Like, it feels really good to have a suit measured, and that's the, that's sort of the antithesis of what we've been talking about. Not necessarily, but it's an experience too that I keep thinking that maybe we ought to explore explore a little bit at Design Pavilion, whether it's— maybe it's digital. Are we biometrically scanning people or whatever? Is that going to be interesting? But also the making of— I could see— I want to make stuff in Times Square. I want 12 sewing machines there with people making it or weaving.

I want Amy Fisher to get her felting machine in there to felt up recycled clothing.

We were talking to the— earlier to the Brooklyn Fashion Design Accelerator, which is a really very, very interesting organization run by a friend of mine from Pratt, Deborah Johnson. And it's like they make things there, and they're doing all sorts of— they're working at the intersection of tech and making. They're—

Deborah's a big PI supporter. She's come and spoken at the conferences. Oh, great. Yeah, I really— So we love the work that—

Yeah, and I would love to get them there. And we had a last ditch effort between them and Eileen Fisher that like really felt like maybe we can get it together for next year because they both sort of support each other in a way. Like it's the same story and we could actually get the BFDA there, like maybe weaving, recycled textile into new things, or could they be felting, or could they— like that, the making thing I think is very interesting. The hands-on part of it is very interesting, and it's experience. And of course, so I think it— like I love that juxtaposition of like, oh, we're gonna— we actually have this year, we have an artist creating a cover for New York Magazine in situ, in the space, in the design pavilion. They just finished it, they're gonna photograph it tomorrow, this woman Joanna Avilés. The idea that we have a little art residency in Times Square, I think is really fun, or craft residency or whatever it is. It's again, experience. Then that against tech, like if there's some way to merge that together, it becomes really interesting.

I think you should do a screen takeover, all of Times Square.

If someone's already there and they're already gonna buy the media, I say do something in Times Square Times Square that, like, if you're weaving in Times Square, does that process then go up on the screen? Yes, exactly. All of a sudden, those screens get a lot more interesting to me. Yes. If you're connecting on the ground, somehow something that goes on in the space. Well, that's right.

It's very possible. And we talked about this. We did this with Nova, division of DreamWorks at Burberry. We did that in Piccadilly Circus, where people could interact with the screen and personalize product and shake and toss it up on the screen. So yeah, that is completely doable and super fun.

Well, we reached out to Instagram because one of the artists that Harry knows has this selfie head, which is a foam head upon which you can project your own image. It's quite large.

It's quite large, and actually we talked about it many different ways. We were not able to get it funded this year, but I would bring that to Times Square next year. It won't be like fresh and new, but it still will be fresh and new to most people. And it's just this gigantic head. It's like the Walt Disney World Hall of Presidents, you know, where it's a generic head, but then— and it's not projection, it happens with LEDs, but people go in and they have a selfie taken, and then it's projected up on this giant head. I mean, what better thing to have in Times Square? We had a little bit of pushback, but it's like, you know, like, it's like, that's exactly what people are doing there, is like saying, "I'm here," and then all of a sudden you can do it in this giant scale. Like, that to me would be really great. I would— we're gonna keep talking about it.

And that's entertainment, and that's what retail needs.

Absolutely, absolutely. You need this convergence of fidget— well, it's called fidgetal, isn't it? Digital and physical experiences. And I think that's what you're talking about here, is having something that you do on the ground that you're actually interacting with in a physical way, but then you can see some huge-scale digital manifestation of what you've just done as well. And I think if people can create those kind of experiences instead of just walking into a store and that mannequin's got that jacket on and those shoes, and that's kind of what people want, you know, these days.

Well, and to take that experience away in both physical and digital format, right? If you buy something, you're taking the clothing or the product away, whether they're plates or—

But first they want to be delighted.

Yeah, absolutely. And engaged. And if you can save that in some digital format like an experience in Times Square that you can then send off and share to friends and family or whatever, then that ties it all back into the basic stuff that we all want, which is what we talked about the other day.

Yeah, we were up at Resonance and we were talking about what we could bring to the design pavilion because, you know, how could we engage the public? And I don't even know if I mentioned this to you, but maybe I mentioned it earlier, but the idea of, you know, taking plaid, so they make plaid. Turning into a large-scale human tic-tac-toe experience. But at the same time, they're being measured and they can place an order for a shirt.

The plaid experience, I think is— Plaid experience. I mean, you can basically take anything and plug it into the formula. Design is a great partner. Design in its big, it's a great experiential partner. It's a great, I always say we have great real estate and we have great context, design being the context. We can plug almost anything into that.

And you've got an audience. Yeah. So from a customer acquisition perspective, they're there. They're there already. And that's one of the things retail struggles with, getting people in the store.

Yeah, I loved the idea you had at one point via Blipper, you had spoken about creating a series space, just a blank space in which you could have a dance perform. I'm dying to get dance involved with the Design Pavilion, as if there aren't enough moving parts already. I think dance is a really great complement to everything that we're doing. We're doing a lot of abstract form, you know, in general with design, industrial design, architecture. So this idea that you bring in dance, it's another abstract art form. I think it can, it could operate in amongst what we're doing very well, so I'm interested in dance. But this idea that you could create a dance in one of those spaces that would always live in that space virtually, so anyone could come in with their phone and watch this dance performance, or— And be uploaded into it themselves.

Yeah, yeah.

Like this, that this thing can live virtually, this virtual memento of something that's been done. Like even if you just had someone come in you had people come in and they're just like graffitiing the walls in this space, and you record it all, and then people can go back into it and watch it become graffitied, or how does it live? I don't know. Or you can— I mean, but I thought it was really interesting. I thought that was— it was an experience, but it's also this virtual documentation that can live somewhere that people can always go back and visit. That, I thought, was a really cool idea.

For me, when I went into the space for the first time, it was a bit daunting because there's so much chaos in digital signage around Times Square, right? I mean, one of my favorite things to do when I'm in New York in the summertime is to drive through Times Square with the top down on the convertible, because it's like, oh my God, it's completely overwhelming, this amazing space, but you're driving through sort of this Blade Runner experience, and then you're leaving it, and there's nothing like it anywhere else in the world. So then to put something on the ground where people are interacting and still that chaos is overhead, and they're still delighted and they're touching things physically, and I mean, I love the whole thing about kids falling off and, you know, I mean—

It's oddly calm when you're there. Yes, it is. It's like the eye of the storm. You've got all this chaos whirling around you, but because you're engaged in a physically— On the ground.

Like your relationship is just right across from you. One of the things I really want to do, and this was the first year we were able to build a pavilion. I had Inflate come in. I designed the pavilion. I'm of course the easiest designer to partner with because I happen to know a lot about what I'm doing up there. So I was able to— I got my friend Nick, who owns Inflate, to build an inflatable of my design, bring it in. It was a great experience for him. It was perfect for us. But what it ends up being is this example of what other people can do in that space. If you build a space in Times Square and get people in, it's actually a very different, calm experience. And we want to do more of that. We want more pavilions, more enclosed space. It doesn't all have to be outside. I even envision that this store, this pop-up, it will be covered. It will be rooms. It will be divided up in some way so that people navigate through it. That's part of the challenge in Times Square is building these structures or isolating space. I mean, it's also really great to have things right outside where you're interacting with the screens, but there's also this ability to build these structures. And the pavilion that we did this year is the first example of it. So for me, it's really like taken us to the next level.

It's super cool. I really enjoyed walking through there. I think, and you made a really good point, it is like being in the eye of the storm. There's so much craziness around you. And then you just sort of get zoned in to all of these unique new projects And I know you had a load of people come out from UK, um, with Avery Dennison and loads of cool stuff. So it was a really great experience for me and yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed it. So well done to you. And yeah, I'd just like to thank all of you for coming and speaking to us today. It was a really great chat. And I think we can probably end on the fact that it's the human experiences that are going to be the ones that save the retail industry. And if you can combine that with technology, then all the better. Thank you very much, and we'll see you again. Thank you. Thank you.

Everybody get up!