FASHION MADE: "What can 3D do for you?" with Gail Beban

Hey, welcome to another episode of Fashion Made. Today I have the pleasure to be joined by Gaëlle Boban. Gaëlle, hello.

Hi, it's a pleasure to be here to join you.

Welcome to Fashion Made. We are going to talk about the impact and potential of 3D in the garment industry. You have a fair bit of experience with this, I hear.

A fair bit, yeah. It's a real passion as well. It's something that as soon as I saw it for the first time, maybe 10 years ago now, I just knew that that was going to be the future.

Yeah. Where did you see this? Working in Amsterdam?

Yeah, I was working for a large sportswear company. It's quite well known to most people. And that was my first experience of actually seeing the 3D.

Yeah, it's been quite a fast transformation, this sort of implementation of 3D across Fashion Power, hasn't it?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's got a ways to go, but I think what's been amazing has been the evolution of the actual software itself. I work with a couple of different ones and yeah, just looking back over that period, the advances that have been made and the things that we're able to do now are really exciting and Yeah, it's just, I look forward into the next 5 to 10 years, what we'll be able to achieve is, is going to be amazing.

Yeah, there's, I mean, as a fast introduction, but there's obviously a long way to go. Do you feel like Fashion Apparel is a little bit behind some other industries?

Yeah, definitely. I think we are, you know, I was actually chatting to somebody about this recently. And if you went into a, into a factory, today as if you had gone into a factory, you know, 50 years ago, it's not really that different. I mean, a lot of our sewing machines are, you know, things are— haven't really moved on as much as maybe other industries have. And, you know, we have kind of lost, I think, a lot of opportunities to innovate due to globalization. So we've kind of been at the forefront of that. And I think we've lost some opportunities in, you know, the kind of chase after cheap labor and moving things overseas. In fact, you know, I did an internship in a factory in Scotland when I was doing my studies and I actually haven't seen as advanced a factory as that in all my years in industry since then. And that was, I hate to say, more than 25 years ago.

Wow. That's incredible.

Yeah. I mean, there was a factory I worked back then for Dax Simpson, who did tailored wear, and they did, they had their, and still do have their own brand, but they also made products for Marks Spencer's. And, you know, they had a real high level of automation in their factory. And of course, you know, every minute counts when it was that high a labor cost. So it was extremely, extremely efficient. And yeah, I have never seen something similar anywhere that I've worked overseas.

I'm sure. Do you think that increasing labor costs, obviously paying people more in factories in the traditional countries around the world where this manufacturing takes place, obviously that's a good thing for starters. Do you think that would also have a knock-on effect in people valuing that productivity and efficiency as well?

Well, I think it definitely will. We have unfortunately got a habit of just moving to ever cheaper places, so, you know, rather than trying to bring on to, you know, new innovations and new ways of working and automation. And of course, automation in the clothing industry comes with— it comes with benefits, but it also comes with restrictions around what you, you know, you have to make compromises, um, if you're going to go down a very, very automated route. And that's, you know, that's challenging, I think, for an industry like ours where it's really about change.

Yeah, yeah. And do you think— I mean, I know that you've specialized in lean methodologies in your career thus far. Is this something that could be applied in that area as well?

Well, lean really came from the factories. So, we've kind of really been trying to bring it into, you know, kind of more of a transactional office environment and bringing it into the design and development process. So, the factories, you know, there's a lot of lean out there, a lot of great factories, great examples of how it's been applied in there. It's a little bit more challenging When, um, you know, when, when it's not a factory floor, when you're not making a product and there's not really a clear, um, value add at every stage, then it's a lot more difficult to apply those lean methodologies. But it's not impossible, and, um, it can bring a lot of benefit, I think, to, um, approaching problem solving and just running projects in general.

I mean, bringing that into 3D, um, more specifically Was this something you were applying in your work when you were at the very well-known sportswear brand over in Amsterdam?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just a way of approaching any sort of project or any sort of problem that you want to try to solve. It's just a, you know, a method of approaching it and a way of working which I found really beneficial and still use to this day with the clients I'm working with now as well.

Was it more about the process of implementing 3D, or is it the process of product creating in 3D, if you know what I mean?

Well, I think the thing with 3D is it really depends on what does a company want to do with 3D, or is it trying to solve a problem with 3D? I think everybody has got slightly different use cases for it today, you know, across the industry. People are looking for different things out of this, um, out of the 3D technology. And, and that makes it quite difficult, I think, for the software suppliers to, you know, kind of a really robust roadmap of where they're going, because who do they listen to? And we're all trying to do something different. Um, so I think it really depends on what, um, what kind of problems are you trying to solve? What do you want 3D to do for you? Um, and I think the approach is different. Um, with every different situation.

Well, there's a lot of buzz. Certainly, I've done a few podcasts with people talking about 3D or virtual fashion. And actually, often the conversations have all brought about different opinions, different mindsets, different strategies.

Exactly.

As to the use of virtual software. You know, there's sampling, there's product creation, there's product development, there's even the sort of sales, etail, e-commerce side of things as well. Some people trying to look to this big dream of tying everything in together, but of course you do always need that analog feel of a piece of fabric or a drape or something like this. You know, we're not quite there yet to this sort of utopia that we're searching for.

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I mean, I think, you know, from the outside it seems, well, why can't we simply uses 3D and it kind of would go all the way through the chain and supply the needs of everything and then pop out at the end and eliminate the need for a photoshoot. And that's just putting too much weight on the technology to bear at this stage. I was listening to Matthew Drinkwater on your podcast the other day and he raised a really great point, I think, about, you know, does there always need to be a sort of a KPI or a really specific ROI that you're going after when you implement something new? And isn't there a case to, you know, to play and to explore what a new technology can do? And I definitely think that's true. But there's also the reality that there has to be a why, there has to be a reason for companies to, you know, explore this technology And I think that's very much, you know, what we see now with all these different wants and desires being placed on this technology. And if you compare the size of the, you know, the software vendors in some cases to the size of the companies that they're dealing with, there's a, you know, there's a real difference. They're tiny companies in comparison and they have limited resources. And I think it's really challenging for them to, you know, kind of develop their software in the right direction when we're not really sure ourselves exactly what we're asking from them.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the software is being developed almost by the group as well using it. And these companies, they're, you know, they want to sell clothes, you know, that's what they got into it for. They didn't get into it to help these 5, 6, 7 big companies develop their software. But ultimately, I Guess maybe a mind shift has to happen with companies that want to see the benefits of 3D, that they really kind of do have to help these guys because they're still— it's a very difficult thing to achieve, drape and feel and fit and all of these different million things that come into trying to replicate a piece of 2D clothing into 3D. They kind of do have to help them along the way a little bit.

Yeah, they do. And I think you raised a really interesting point there about changing mindset and changing culture. I think as an organ— as just an industry, we love our samples. We do not want to give them up. And it's very, like, it's that sensory thing when you can touch something and put it on and have a real connection with it. And we need really to start to learn a different language if we're going to be using 3D. And I think there's a real role of leadership here to be quite directive and kind of setting out what their strategies and what their goals are for 3D and really asking the companies to adhere to that. And we will never not have samples. I mean, of course, in the end, the output is a real thing, you know, so we're not going to ever divest of it completely, but there's certainly a lot of opportunity to reduce you know, how much we're sampling today.

Do you think companies fail to see the why?

Yeah, I think, I think it can just be a struggle to, you know, it's like we said, it's like chicken and egg situation. We need to use this technology because we need to develop it further and we need to figure out what it can do for us and what we want it to do for us. So, you know, we really need to use it, but then at the same time we're also in a stage of it where we're not exactly sure what it's going to deliver to us, and therefore the why is a little intangible sometimes. You know, often I hear people say, well, you know, if you want to implement it, you know, in the design community, for example, people will say, you know, look at when design started to use Illustrator, you know, and had to move into that. That was a real painful transition. 'And this is going to be painful too, but it will happen.' And that's really not the same thing at all. I mean, the 3D software is actually— it's kind of reaching across several different traditional roles in the industry. And that makes it tricky. You have that pattern base and that fabric base and that design element, and it's the three things really coming together. It's not just an easy transition, not at all. And some designers, of course, are— very good pattern makers, they can understand, but some don't, so that's a real challenge as well.

Yeah, so I mean, Illustrator was just in the design phase, obviously.

And it's 2D, right? So it's not a 3D thing. It's, you know, you were sketching maybe with pen and paper previously, and then you had to move to digitally sketching, but you still, it's still a 2D thing. Sketch, whether it's digital or not, whereas now we're moving into a 3D space where, you know, you are really reflecting what the pattern can do and what the fabric can do, and that's a lot of burden to put on design, I think.

In my job, I work a lot with companies who are either just about to implement it, have implemented it, or who have been leading the way in 3D within fashion for a long time. So I have a little bit of a bubble around me in terms of the companies I deal with. Do you see a different picture to that, in that, you know, there's a lot of buzz, but has much actually changed?

I think a lot's changed, you know, and, you know, we— there's a far more awareness, I would say, in the industry of 3D. And then I would say, you know, like I mentioned at the beginning, the technology itself has really improved so much that, um, it's a really exciting time. And I think when companies see, um, 3D garments and what can be achieved, you know, it is exciting and it is it is something that they want to take advantage of. I think that the journey to taking advantage of it is, you know, it's not easy. You know, it takes, it's going to take a lot of effort and it's going to take a lot of, I think, having a really clear vision of what you want and also being realistic about what the software can deliver to you.

So how do they get that information without listening to the sales rep of the particular software company that's convincing. How do you get a, you know, for anyone listening to this that hasn't implemented 3D or is thinking about it, you know, where do you go to get that real unbiased information about what can it do for my specific company?

Yeah, well, David, you're setting me up for a shameless plug here. I mean, obviously they should. Well, there are actually, you know, I think you guys over at PI, you do a great job with the retail coalition that you have. Where people are coming together and sharing a lot of information about using 3D without giving away the keys to the castle. There's also been some other more invite-only think tanks around what are the challenges with 3D and how can we help each other to move forward. But yeah, it's not like you can Google it, that's for sure. It's a little bit more difficult to get that that information. And I think that's probably quite challenging, you know, for companies trying to move into the space. And just, it's a combination of, you know, kind of their, the products that they're making, of course, the types of product, you know, how their company is set up, what their process is, and then, you know, what they are trying to achieve with the 3D. And that, you know, that all has to come together to form a strategy.

Yeah, I mean, the one guaranteed thing is it's not a one-size-fits-all system.

Well, not at all. And as an industry, you know, every company is a little bit different in how they're, you know, bringing products to market. And so it's not like there's a cookie-cutter process or way of doing things, you know, across the whole industry. Everybody's quite different. And then when you add the sort of company cultures in on top of that, you know, then it's, yeah, then it can be really different.

So it's software cost versus potential gains, um, weighing all of that up and developing what really must be a quite a long-term strategy for this kind of thing.

I think it has to be if that's, um, if companies, you know, want to, want to move into this space. Um, but the rewards, I think, you know, um, are, are there. I mean, once you start using, um, 3D most of the time. When I go back now and I look at the old way of communicating with 2D sketches, you sort of realize how much better the 3D is in communicating the design intent and the level of information that a factory can understand from a 3D compared to what that 2D technical drawing would have been in the past. Kind of amazing that we would have ever expected to have a correct first-time prototype from that.

Yeah, and that was the expectation, right?

Oh yeah, definitely. Um, so, so I think, you know, you get, you get used to— once you get used to 3D, you can look back and realize how much richer, you know, it is to communicate in that way, um, throughout the process. So whether you're kind of communicating internally to, to stakeholders about what the line is is going to be, or whether you're communicating externally with your factory or with sales at an earlier stage, you know, you're communicating in such a more robust way when you're, when you're able to use these 3D models.

I mean, could you tell me how— because something that I'm quite interested with at the moment, um, has been FIT, um, and all the new approaches to trying to figure out really new sizing strategies as well. As working out actually what is fit compared to taking just your exact measurements. I mean, I got a Zozo suit and I've got a 3D avatar which have my exact measurements, um, and I've actually got some clothing from them. And I found out that, you know, you can have my exact measurements, but you don't know what my style is and you don't know what my fit preference is. Um, I don't know what you think. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Well, I think that, um, it sort of leads It leads us nicely on to maybe a little bit to talk about what the future could be when you have a 3D avatar and you can shop online and we get to a place where our simulation is good enough that you can simulate any of those garments online onto your own 3D avatar and you can get a real accurate, a real accurate image of how that garment will fit. Of course, you can't feel it, so the fit preference is all maybe a little bit trickier. But when we get to that stage of being that good in simulation, a lot of need for, you know, standardization and sizing and some things that we've been trying to get after as an industry for years is not quite so important because you can see exactly what it fits like in a 3D world. And I think that's going to be a real tipping point in the industry when we get the, I wouldn't say that the technology could bear this today, but I mean, sometime very, very soon it will be able to, I think. And when we get to that point, I think that there will be a real demand from the consumer. As we see, people are preferring, you know, preferencing to shop online rather than traditional bricks and mortar. You know, then being able to accurately try things on is going to be a need rather than, you know, an additional service. And I think when we hit that tipping point, that's going to be really interesting for 3D.

What do you think needs to happen to achieve that though?

I think, you know, it's— there is a bit of cooperation that needs to go on definitely between the industry and the software vendors. And, you know, like the, the, the— in the simulation, the fabric properties, you know, place, it would be lovely if we could have some sort of fabric standards across the industry that we were all using.

I know that, um, there's a digital materials library out there, and I think there might be a few people trying to do it. There's certainly one company that I think is ahead of the curve on that one.

Yeah, I mean, um, I think that there's a— there's certainly been a topic, um, and I think there are a few people who are, you know, lobbying for it.

Was that the kind of thing that you were suggesting that that would help?

I think that would definitely help if we could have a similar, um, approach to measuring digital fabric properties and having digital fabrics respond in a consistent way.

Yeah, I mean, definitely. Do you think that it's gonna help people interact with their customers as well? I mean, obviously we've talked a lot about product creation, development, sampling, fit, but is there a way that implementing these tools can help you, you know, build a brand as well and have better interaction with regards to your consumer base in in how they interact with your products online?

Yeah, I definitely think so. I mean, being able to trust that with any particular brand that you can try their products on online and be able to trust those results, you know, when you try them on, that when you actually get the physical garment, then it replicates what you've experienced in the 3D world. I think that's huge in terms of driving brand loyalty and driving consumers back to that brand to have that shopping experience. And then, you know, I think one of your guests on the podcast talked about, or it might be you yourself actually, just having the freedom to, you know, to try on and to experiment with different outfits in a 3D world is a lot more liberating maybe than it is to, you know, be kind of hoofing back and forward to the changing rooms in the traditional way. So I think that's really interesting for a consumer. I think brands that do get this right are going to really reap the benefits in terms of driving more customers to their product.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I remember that conversation with Kerry and thinking of all the weird and wonderful things that you might try on in the safety of a private browsing window on your laptop.

Yeah, exactly. It does give a certain bit more freedom. And I think, you know, That's, I think, you know, like the generation that's coming through now and being the next wave of consumers, they're so much more familiar with, you know, being online, their image being online than, you know, perhaps my generation is as a consumer. You know, when you see a 3D scan of yourself, you know, you might not react too positively to it, whereas the next generation of consumer coming through I think is a lot more comfortable with that kind of thing.

Yeah, I think you're right. I certainly, when I saw the 3D scan of myself, thought, oh God, that's not very fun, is it? I need to get in the gym. But I think you're right. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of sort of selfie videos and stuff. You know, I see my, my sort of nieces and nephews and how they interact with sort of social media and just their phones and stuff. And I think they're very comfortable on screen. So yeah, I don't envisage a problem with them, you know, uploading their scans to whatever website so that they can have, you know, this avatar wearing clothes. So I think you're right, there's such an exciting sort of endpoint to this journey that this industry is currently on. So it's really exciting and I hope that more and more companies sort of get involved and make that first step, because it must be quite a big first leap, especially if you're a small to medium-sized business, you know?

No, exactly. I mean, and in the end, depending on, you know, what you want out of the, out of the technology, if you're investing in the 3D technology, it's giving you one aspect. But if you want to have images that you would maybe use as customer-facing online, that's a whole other process that you would have to invest in. If you wanted to go down a route of having your 3D asset feed some of the other systems in your organization in the product creation cycle, then that's another whole investment because you need to you would need to build all of that. It's not going to come as a, as a, as a plug and play with the, with the 3D software. So it is a massive undertaking for, you know, middle-sized companies or for any company actually.

Yeah. Well, I guess the bigger the company, the bigger the undertaking, but, um, you know, I, I guess if you're a small to medium-sized company, um, maybe sometimes, I don't know, maybe not actually, maybe you have more freedom. And you're small enough to be able to change quicker.

Well, I think there's something in that, and also there's less scrutiny, you know, so you putting images out online, you're probably going to get less media glare than you would if you were one of the giants of the industry. So yeah, there's definitely, there is opportunity in that, I think.

If you were, I'm stealing some more advice from you now, if you were a small to medium-sized company and you were going to do this, Would you create a whole new department or would you create champions of this across departments?

You know, I think that you need, you do need to have extra resources. Asking somebody to undertake this on top of what their regular work is, and especially when this is covering, you know, it's covering so many different areas. So you've got your kind of 3D expert, you've got your, the fact that you're covering pattern materials and design, and you've got the IT backend kind of thoughts around it. So I think it would be, you know, it would be a very, very big ask to try and do that without investing resources in it. The question would be whether that would eventually stand up on its own, and that's certainly something that smaller or medium-sized businesses could look at. But in the starting phases, they would definitely need to look at 'extra resources to get this thing off the ground.' And then in terms of people within the department, I think you do always need champions and enthusiasts, whether it's 3D or anything else really, that is going to help get it over the top. Because change is hard, and especially I think in our industry where we're on the seasonal hamster wheel, it's probably even harder. So you do need these champions, I believe.

Yeah. So, I mean, it's a massive thing for culture change is to have internal champions kind of throughout the organization, right?

Yeah, I think so. And I think the other piece, and we touched on it a little bit at the beginning, is really having those, having leadership have a strong voice and endorsement of what you're trying to do.

I mean, it's fascinating stuff. And as you say, the more people that get on board, the better the renderings will be and, you know, the better this sort of virtual world will be. I know that you said there always will be samples. For this utopia to be achieved, do you think we actually will get to a point where we trust Fabric sort of specifications to a point that we can just go from ideation to consumer without sampling?

Well, I think it really depends on the type of product that you're making. I think if— I think there's definitely opportunity for that. And in fact, if we, if we could build the trust and the process, we could definitely do that with quite a lot of the products that we make today. There's no need to sample them. But I do think there'll always be a sector of of, of products, if you're trying something new, um, and you do need to make a sample, you know, and I'm very cautious of, you know, making it more about the 3D than about the real-life product because it really is about the product, it's not about the 3D, and the 3D should just be an enhancement of getting there, you know. And I think you have to be very cautious of, you know, the, the tail wagging the dog in this situation, um, as you kind of implement these new technologies.

Well, I mean, that's— you're absolutely right. And, you know, we do focus so much on the technology, and it's, um, it's, it's actually quite refreshing to hear someone go back to the why we are all sort of in this industry. Well, not me personally, I don't make clothes. But, you know, it's refreshing to hear that, you know, it's not a perspective that I hear that often. You know, a lot of people always talk about the technology, and you're right, you know, if you lose focus of why you're actually in this business, that's to make great clothes that people want to wear again and again and again, then you will lose sight of that and you probably lose some quality in your end product.

Absolutely. And I think that's a real danger if you are— if you don't keep your eye firmly on the fact that it's, you know, it's all about that product and that the consumer's response to that product.

Yeah. Yeah. Just want to thank you again for coming on and giving me the ins and outs of of, you know, 3D and sort of where it's come from and where it's going and really what people need to do to get over that first stage of implementing it and where it can go from there. You know, it's all fascinating stuff.

It's been my pleasure to come. Thanks for having me. And this was fun.

Yeah, no, it was really great. All right. Thanks again. Cheers, Gail.

Thanks very much.