FASHION MADE: Will design survive digital with Anne Prahl, PhD

Hi, welcome to another episode of Fashion Made. Today we are sitting down with Anna Prahl, who's a design and innovation consultant and someone who you've probably heard speak at many events or read some of her work. Anna, welcome to Fashion Made.

Thank you.

We're here sitting down in London and today we're talking about the role of the designer in in the digital age and will they become extinct? So I guess your argument is no?

I ran a few workshops on digital tools and how they're going to affect the role of the designer in the future. And I was quite, I hadn't, it hadn't actually occurred to me, but one of the key concerns for many designers was that with all automation and digitalization coming in, whether they would have a job in the future. And that was really sort of the first time I started thinking about this. And I think, you know, digital tools, they provide some amazing opportunities to make designers' jobs easier, more efficient, also with regard to sustainability. But also, you know, they could become, or they could be done by machines in a way, you know, design jobs. And I think the key concern was that with the trend for customization, for example, or co-creation. You know, one designer was saying, well, why would I need to be involved if the consumer, if this trend for customization, you know, carries on? People can just design their own stuff and have it made for them, you know, individually, and you know, what's my job role? But I think, you know, we could see, we can either see it going that way, that everything, everyone would be involved in their design, you know, consumers can choose whatever they like and we don't need as many designers. But I think the other direction could be that people want more unique things again that are handmade and hand-designed and handcrafted. So it could be, I see this automation and maybe digitalization, you know, could really enhance how we're working at the moment, or there could be some kind of revolt against it, you know, and people saying, well, actually I'm going to leave this big company I'm working for. I want to go back to working with pen and paper, and I want to make things myself. So, I think there's lots of different ways this could go.

Yeah.

So, I don't think designers are going to become extinct. I think it's more, you know, what kind of roles they play or how they create products. I think it's all about how we create different types of products and services as well, because designers are beginning to see it's not just about designing products. And there's some really great companies that are actually thinking, how can I engage the consumer to educate them about sustainability and so on. So there's so many different ways it could go.

So, I mean, well, let's bring it back to the core. So what does it mean now that you have all of these digital tools? Is there still that artistic license? Is there— are you still an artist in a way? Or are you now actually just a programmer and just helping, you know, this digital design age that we're into now?

I think it really depends because there's so many different types of companies for a start. You can't just say how is the role of the designer changing because we have so many different types of designers. For example, you know, designer makers that actually create their own stuff. Then we've got designers that work for huge companies where a trend I've noticed is where they actually recruit designers to just be a woven bottom designer, for example. So, you know, this poor person spends their entire time just designing jog bottoms or, you know, pants, which then they become a specialist at it, where other designers might create everything, they look after the development, they travel to the Far East. So I think it's very hard to say how the role of the designer in general has changed. But what I've noticed is really, obviously, it's this big move from analog to digital. And, you know, when I was trained 25-something years ago, it was all with pen and paper. And, you know, we used to design with a black pen, then we, we used a lot of Tipp-Ex, we photocopied it, and we colored it in by hand with felt-tip pens. And it could take 2 weeks to color in a collection, for example, just of 10 pieces, you know, 5 colorways each. You'd be just coloring in day after day after day. And that nowadays, you know, takes maybe a couple of hours because you can do it through digital tools. So in a way, designers get far less time to sort of think about what they're doing.

Iterate and develop.

Yeah, and just sort of, you know, look at it and think, oh, is this actually really working? Because if you spending all day coloring something in, you're gonna know it pretty well by the end of the day. I think it's this kind of, you know, this need for speed. Everything is faster and faster, and designers are actually spending less time with the concept stage. And that for me could be quite concerning because we're just churning, you know, in some instances people are just churning out stuff. So, you know, you could say it's it becomes more meaningless, or, you know, in this whole fast fashion era, if designers are designing in a fast way and not really thinking about it properly, you know, it's only natural that the consumer will consume it in that manner. When I run my workshops, I was really amazed to see that some big fashion companies, they let their designers choose their tools, and they have people in one department now working with pencil pen and paper and sending this, you know, faxing literally. No, that doesn't exist anymore, but sending their pencil sketches, you know, out to the factories. And then there's people who use Illustrator like me, which is something I learned probably 15, 20 years ago, and it's just quick and easy. It's almost like drawing, you know, with pen and paper. And then there's people who work in 3D, totally advanced. And what I found really nice in this one company was that Every designer can choose, you know, the tools that they want to work with because the company encourages, you know, the skills that they have and the interests that they have. So, I think at the moment we're still in a stage where designers either, you know, if they're lucky enough to choose how they can work, or they're obviously the whole company uses Illustrator and, you know, those kind of products. What I've also seen is that companies are starting to have 3D digital design teams who are, these teams are sort of there to support the designers. So it's almost like designers do that creative bit and do all their being creative and drawing pretty things. And then it's being translated by 3D digital experts into a 3D product that can be used to present at sales conferences, um, you know, used for virtual prototyping and so on. So it's quite a separate process still at the moment. I've seen, you know, these two different teams that might work together, but it's not— I don't think that many designers are literally embracing 3D yet. Obviously, some examples, you know, like Atacac, for example.

Yeah.

Because they're just, you know, really amazing at using these tools. But everyone else—

Didn't they just start using them though? Didn't they? That's how they started out, was designing in 3D?

Yes, because that was their natural background.

Yeah.

I think it's Richard who is very much into tailoring and did a PhD in tailoring and then got into the whole 3D and how that links up and the constructions. It's actually a very— it's an amazing skill. You know, if you look at their stuff, it all looks so beautiful and it looks more beautiful almost than the real thing. You know, the 3D version is so— you want to touch it when you see it on the screen. You can't believe it's it's not real. So yeah, there's very different skill sets and, you know, how you can use these tools.

Well, yeah, and the skill set is such an important part because if you are brought up using Illustrator, pen and paper, anything that isn't designing from the very beginning in 3D, then it's quite difficult to make that transition because It's not necessarily about learning new skills, but also about unlearning your old habits.

Yeah.

And I think people find this very difficult, um, to do.

Mm-hmm.

So really, do we need to be employing more younger people who have learned to use these 3D tools from college? If we want to design in 3D and protect our design structures for the future?

Yeah, I think when you say younger people, I always get a bit upset.

Well, that's true.

I attract technically minded people.

Yeah, let's say people who have learned these, who weren't designers before and have learned 3D as the first, their first experience of design has been in 3D because typically Yeah.

Yeah.

It wouldn't be that way.

They wouldn't have to unlearn it. But actually, saying, you know, saying that, college or university education is still very limited in this field. And I only know, I mean, I haven't looked into this, you know, very deeply, but I know that Amphi in Amsterdam is probably one of the only, and, you know, college or universities that are really pushing this. And, you know, universities aren't really up to speed on this one. And this is a huge opportunity to maybe have those more technical design courses. And people could then choose whether they want to go more into the sort of creative side of it or into the technical side. And then we could see if in the future maybe it could merge more together.

But, um, Let's say if you were going back to when you first started design and you had the option of pen and paper, Adobe Illustrator, or Pure3D, which one do you think you'd go for?

Well, I'd always go back to pen and paper, just because, I don't know, because you can do it straight away because you knew how to draw. You obviously, you know, at school you realized, oh, I can draw houses and horses and cats.

That's the thing I can do.

Yeah. And then that kind of like turned into, oh, actually I can, I can think about how I like clothes to look and I can actually put them together and I can create something, you know, not just drawing stuff but actually making it up in my head and illustrating my thoughts in a way. And, you know, that's kind of like, that's kind of the process, what the designer does, trying to put on paper what they're imagining and But if you're looking at 3D, I've seen some amazing new tools like the Google Tilt Brush, for example, where people, you know, you can design in 3D. You've got this kind of like this gun pen type thing, and you could draw around a person and create a jacket just by drawing around this person. So you could create like, you know, this unique piece that fits this person and draw it all in 3D and then if it's connected to the right kind of software, which I guess doesn't really exist yet, you know, it could then immediately be linked to digital material libraries. And my big hope is, you know, that also you could get immediate information on environmental impacts, for example, because I see these tools as an opportunity, you know, for sustainability where, you know, when we're designing something, literally while I'm drawing it, and once I've chosen my fabric, you know, I could get some kind of calculation on what the impacts are and how I can make it better by using a different type of seam or different trims or different materials.

Um, so, so we're on the precipice of new technology being able to enable designers, more designers, to be more creative. Yeah, create things in quicker time. So really even more bridge the gap between analog and digital.

Yeah, but I think what's, what's not happening is I think people aren't putting this all together. Because what I've noticed is we've got all this beautiful 3D software, and I've been to 3 PI Apparel events now, and people are shouting at each other about the same things every time, saying, you know, we can't use these things in isolation because, yes, if we're creating the most beautiful 3D designs garment, it needs to connect to so many other aspects, you know, in the entire process of, you know, developing this, manufacturing it, how is it used, how is it worn, and what happens with the end of life. And all these things need to come together. And the tools that people have in the industry all need to somehow come together to enable the whole process to become better and not just focus on the sort of design end or saying, 'You know, we can design it in 3D so we can use it to present to the sales force.' I mean, it's great because, you know, I've done that, but you don't need 3D for that.

No.

You know, when I worked for a big sports company, you know, 20 years ago, we used to do everything with PowerPoints, and then everyone in all the different countries would look at a big screen and we said, 'Do you like this jacket, this colorway, that colorway?' So, I mean, it was a sort of basic version of what you can do now in 3D. And that kind of stuff is really helpful, but I think we need to do more with these digital tools and need to connect more to really, you know, take into consideration the whole process.

In terms of the traditional designers, should we be upskilling them to use new technologies? Because whether you're pen and paper or not, you are going to eventually have to use some sort of technology. Or creating new design roles so that people who are trained in the old ways, the dark arts, can still maintain doing their pen and paper, and we just supplement that with a new breed of more digitally focused designers.

Yeah, again, when I run my workshops, this is the question I ask designers: would you want to go one way or another. And there's definitely, there's basically two, two sides. The, the designers that say, yes, I definitely want to be upskilled because I don't want to add another layer of interpretation. Like, if I draw something in Illustrator and I can write the best description and best spec sheets, and then I hand it over to a 3D person, they have to interpret what I've given them. So it may change in nature slightly, you know, before it goes to the factory to be prototyped or to be manufactured. So there's a lot of designers say, yeah, definitely we want to learn it, but we just don't have the time. And it's also often, you know, at the moment the big obstacles are financial, you know, because management sort of doesn't see necessarily the advantages of it yet. And a lot of designers are really interested, but they're finding it really hard to get the budgets, you know, for being trained, for putting time aside. And then there's the, you know, there's other designers who say, well, actually I want nothing to do with 3D. I would much rather concentrate on spending more time on being really creative, having more time to research, coming up with a great concept, sticking to my existing skills, and then literally working, you know, have a person that shadows me or mirrors me so they understand what I'm doing and they can translate, literally translate what I'm doing in 2D into 3D. Okay. And you know, a lot of designers said that would be sort of their ultimate dream.

Did you find any similarities between the two groups in terms of maybe how they designed or what they designed? Did you find that there was a certain group of designers tended to go one way, or is it really just down to the person and the human being? Themselves?

I think it depends on products as well, because my workshops were both with clothing apparel designers and footwear designers.

Okay.

And footwear design, I mean, that's why we're seeing a lot of great, of the initial great innovations coming through in footwear design, lends itself much more to the 3D because, you know, because it's—

it's a hard base, isn't it?

Yeah, it's hard base and it just looks so amazing, you know, in 3D.

But it's a lot easier to do. There's no drape.

Exactly.

And it's a hard base. So it's got kind of the two real hard problems that are with apparel are completely gone from the beginning. So I'm not surprised that footwear was the one that took it on.

Yeah, but I think it's, you know, I've spoke to clothing designers and they were just as keen, but well, actually, sort of in the interim, while, because this is not really happening yet, it's just what people are considering and trying to sell into management. Can we not get a trial on this? This software or that software and see how long it would take us. But what people are also quite excited about is the, you know, the 3D design services that are now sort of popping up where you can actually, rather than investing in 3D design yourself, you know, an interim solution could be to send your Illustrator sketches or whatever you've got to this company that are offering the service. And they can turn around your sketch into a 3D virtual prototype in a couple of hours. Of course, then there's the concern if it's an external company, you know, they see all your designs. So that's what people were really concerned about. You know, others said, oh, this is amazing, I'd love to have that. And, you know, some of the designers, and it had never occurred to me, said, yeah, but they will have all the data from all these people that are sending them designs. You know, that's going to be really valuable. And We want to keep our designs, you know, secret. They're our designs. We want to keep them within our four walls in the company. So there's some really interesting sort of opportunities, but also challenges, you know, coming along with these kind of services as well.

Once you release a design, are you not just— I mean, there's so much copying that goes on in the industry. Obviously, if someone releases something great, then you just iterate it a little bit, change it a little bit, use roughly the same colours, and, you know, other people produce it and release it, and, you know, they're big companies that make a lot of money doing that.

Yeah, but I think it's the timing, because if you— if people copy your stuff once it's out in the shops, that's one thing, but if someone knew what you were working on at the very early stages, that's like giving away your secret.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Let me put something to you. So if you have automation in the factories, you have SOBOTs, we have machine learning, we have artificial intelligence coming into the industry as well. Will there actually be designers in 50 years' time? You know, could we not just create sort of random designs ourselves on AI or design things ourselves and have it even printed at home or printed in a factory that's been reshored to our local town, you know? Well, do you think that, you know, we could have completely autonomous apparel companies in the future?

I think, you know, looking at the automated t-shirt production now, that's obviously the first thing that's actually really happening, that, you know, we can make a whole t-shirt in 20 seconds flat, or a robot can make a t-shirt. And, you know, it's quite interesting to see, and they've chosen very basic product. And what I can see is that in terms of the design process, there's a lot of things designers have to work with, a lot of repeats or basic styles. You know, you're kind of wasting your time because you're just redrawing it or picking another stitching color or another button or another zip. So if you've got, you know, you could really look at the ranges and the collections that people are designing and there's a certain opportunity for automation, design automation for those kind of basic styles, and then leaving designers to get on with the styles that really require the skill and forward thinking and actual innovation. You know, hopefully in a way designers can become more innovative and, you know, design all kinds of future crazy things that we don't know about yet that we're going to be wearing. You know, we've got all these crazy materials coming through, so You know, we might also have really different types of form factors or different takes on what clothing could be, or, you know. Yeah, yeah. So I think in a way it could foster more innovation because the basic stuff, we can just say, hey computer, design the, you know, that basic classic range and just change the stitching. So I think the role of the designer is becoming far more exciting. And interesting, but it's also very complex. And whether you're working in a big company and you're just a tiny part of a huge process, or whether you're a designer running your own brand, is totally different in terms of, you know, what you can achieve.

Yeah.

And how it affects your role, I think.

Do you feel like, because there's so much sort of excitement now, do you ever feel like picking up the pen again and—

Well, I have done.

Yeah.

So yeah, I'm currently working on a bio-based yoga collection.

Yeah.

Because I don't really want to wear polyester on my skin, especially recycled polyester.

Okay. Why is that? Sort of hypoallergenic or just on a sort of ethical—

No, it's just, I guess with all this plastic that's been floating around in the oceans and God knows where, you know, it will have been contaminated by other bits floating around in the ocean, and we have no idea what we're actually putting into these recycled polyester materials. So it's very hard to have some kind of provenance, you know. And also, I don't— I just don't like the feel of polyester. And I'm, you know, I'm a bit sort of romantic about, you know, bio-based. It sounds so nice. And, you know, materials made from orange skins and everything. It just seems more— it makes more sense for me as a you know, in terms of sportswear and yoga wear, or, you know, when you're wearing clothes next to skin and you're sweating in it, you know, you want it to be good for you. And that's kind of my ultimate aim, is to actually create clothes that are good for you in terms of they make me happy, you know, the colors are amazing, but also they don't cause you any harm while you're wearing them, because that's a whole other you know, problem in terms of chemicals and so on. And it's really hard to find out the facts because everything's so, you know, you need huge amounts of money to research into this. So I'm just trying to find, you know, the best available materials, colouration processes to create something that I would be really happy to wear.

How's it going?

Yeah, it's currently being made.

Yeah.

And I review all my prototypes via Skype.

Okay.

So I have my friends in Lithuania modeling the, you know, the outfit they've made that day, and we sort of go through it all. And then, you know, it's almost digital. I guess it's digital because we do it, you know, on our computer screens.

Well, you're not sending it traveling.

And I did go out there initially to hand over the collection, you know, because it's really good to see what, you know, to explain a collection properly. I think that's Another aspect, the whole way that spec sheets and tech packs are put together, you know, the level of information, that's something that's really important and that also can benefit from digital tools. And so, so yeah, let's see, let's see when this collection is finished.

Yeah, I look forward to it.

It's only for women, sorry, but that's all right. Might go into men's.

That's all right, I'll get it for get it for the wife. And look, I think we could go on all day long, but, um, you know, sadly podcasts have to end somewhere. And, um, I think on your orange peel athleisure collection, I look forward to hearing about that. So thanks very much for joining us, and, um, yeah, have a good one.

Thank you for having me in this lovely pod.

Yeah, I've never been in a pod. I know, I know. Alright. Everybody get up!