From High Heels to Hiking Boots with Heeluxe CEO

Woo! Woo! Woo!

Dr. Gray, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. Welcome to Fashion Made.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Yeah, it's good stuff. Today's topic is all about biomechanics and footwear, something we haven't even spoken about on this before, so I'm pretty excited about it too.

I mean, I'm excited about it every day.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I've seen the list of companies you work with. Pretty impressive.

Yeah, I'm excited about that. We actually topped 50 brands last year from, you know, we have like, you know, the biggest athletic brands to fashion brands to small startups that will be big in a few years. It's a pretty great diverse population of footwear brands that we're able to help out.

And what are the kind of things you're focused on? Is it all for fit, comfort, performance, health, everything?

I think everything sums it up. I like to say is we like to focus on making footwear better, and there's not a single segment of footwear that we found that cannot be made better. So it could be high heels, sandals. And so usually what I say is we want to make footwear better. We test everything from high heels to hiking boots, and better to me means different things depending on who the end customer is and what they're going to be doing in their shoes. So if I'm going to go buy a basketball shoe, I might care most about traction and performance, whereas if I'm buying a shoe that I'm gonna be working at a restaurant all day, I might still care about traction, but cushioning is gonna be my number one thing. Or maybe if I'm a little bit older, I just want a shoe that allows my feet to swell a little bit as the day goes on, and fit is important. So there's always a different thing, but it always, for us, is how do we make it better, who's the customer, and what are they doing in the shoe?

[Speaker] So why is this such a big issue in footwear? Because I speak to a lot of people about fit and comfort in apparel. And this is the first conversation I've had with someone really about things like fit in footwear. Is it as big an issue for footwear as it is in apparel?

[Speaker:JOSHUA MACHT] I will be 100% honest that fit is a way bigger issue for footwear than it is for apparel. And there's a few different reasons for that. Number one, footwear tends to fit a lot more closely to our body. Than apparel does, you know. Um, in apparel, we also have the ability to have things that stretch or maybe like a little bit baggier. We can have a stretch panel. Historically, footwear has been a very stiff material. Maybe it's adjustable through the laces, but that's about it, and that's not even all shoes. And then we also have a very big variety of, um, of people's foot shapes and people's foot movements. But footwear for a long time didn't really keep up with that sort of variety. So the one size fits most, like say if we say like a size 7, that's going to fit all size 7 women, that doesn't really apply. Now the one thing that was really the big breakthrough for us on the testing side of fit is that when Helux started in 2010, there was not a way to quantify shoe fit. It was all subjective. It would be asking people, how does this fit. Whereas, uh, you know, in, in apparel we could measure it. You know, we could take a tape measure, measure their waist, compare that to the, um, you know, the measurement of the waist on a pair of pants or inseam or whatever we want to look at. Footwear wasn't as good, and what we came up with was a quantifiable way to measure shoe fit, and that changed everything.

How did you come up with that?

You know, through a bit of good fortune. Uh, I, I tend to like technology, and, and because Helux has always been so innovative on the testing side, uh, we knew that there wasn't a lot of equipment that was focused on testing footwear on people. And so we were always looking for, okay, how do we take some other technologies from different areas and apply it to footwear testing? And we had been using some new types of pressure sensors to measure in-shoe cushioning. Unfortunately, those sensors weren't very large, and so when I got called to make a custom shoe for an NBA athlete, they didn't have a sensor that could fit his size 18 feet. And so I was like, well, I need something. This is like a big deal for us. He's an NBA All-Star. I gotta hit this one out of the park. And so they said, well, hey, we have these other sensors. Why don't you give these a try? And you can just kind of like put him, put those sensors directly on his feet. And it worked great. And so we did that. And then when I was flying home from that testing session, I was like, wait a second, if we could put these under the feet, What's stopping us from putting them anywhere on the foot and quantifying fit with that? And so when I got back to the office, I had a few of my researchers here just set out to figure out, A, could we quantify fit with these sensors? And then once we did that, what were the key areas for fit and what was, what separated good fit from bad fit, either too tight or too loose? So it was pretty optimistic approach and it ended up working out really well. And, you know, we knew it was important to the footwear brands 'cause they'd been asking us for something like this. So we basically found a solution to a problem we knew that they were having. And then once we had it, it was just, it just took off. You know, nobody else had that type of technology.

Yeah, I bet. So just skyrocketed from there.

Now it's our most popular test. It's in over 80% of the testing that we do. We quantify shoe fit.

Yeah. Yeah. And so how long have you been doing that for?

Uh, we started doing it in 2015, uh, with some of the first testing for it. It became a more repeatable and valid test in 2016. During that time in 2015, 2016, the company that we were using, the tech company, they went out of business. And that happens a lot in the tech space. Kind of overpromise, get a lot of investor funding, and then poof, they're gone. So at that point we realized that in addition to just knowing how to use these sensors, we, Helix, had to become an expert in you know, almost building these systems ourselves. So we partnered with a few different groups to have an app, to have the sensors built for us, and then we tried to learn as much as we could on like the algorithms and things like that. So now we have some great partners, but should anything happen, we know so much about wearable sensors and how to measure fit, how to measure cushion inside of the shoe that we'll never have to not be, um, able to offer that service. So we control a lot more of the tech behind it now.

That's amazing as well, because you need that stability as well to grow.

It's very true. I think I would be devastated if we had to, you know, you know, because this is a new idea. We had to convince footwear brands that it worked and that it was important for them. And it's usually not a hard sell, but it's still— it's a new idea for them. And then if we did that and then all of a sudden the tech supplier goes out of business and we can't offer that service anymore, It kind of cripples it, you know, everybody started to count on us for this service and I would hate to see that go away.

Good stuff. Well, um, first of all, how do you get that to vary to all of the myriad of ways that human beings must walk?

I had some mentors that really convinced me how important it was to keep track of all of our data and to store all of our data and to have databases. So luckily, I mean, we tested, I think it was something like 480 individual people were in our lab last year. So we have how they jumped, how they walked, how they hiked uphill and downhill, how they ran, all of this data we have. And so we have a great understanding of how people move and what the variability of that is. Now, one of the things that machine testing and footwear has done in the past is it was a machine that was really meant to do one thing. So it'd be like, hey, we're just going to test shoe flex, or we're just going to test impact. And that's not how our body works. Our body does a lot of things all at once. And I love to— my preferred way to test things is on humans doing the activity that the shoes are intended to. But there's sometimes that that's not always possible. And I love things to be fast. Usually science isn't a fast thing. I love our testing to be quick. So we say everything that we're going to test is going to be done in 2 weeks or less. And like, say, durability. If we want to see how a hiking boot or a work boot lasts for the first year of its life, um, that usually takes a year and that's way too long. So brands were asking us to develop a durability machine that replicated human walking and movement, but could simulate how a shoe looks in a year in a couple of weeks. And I said, okay, well, that's a pretty tall order, but then we just set out to build that machine because the brands were asking us for it. So I don't ever get an idea and I say, "Oh, that would be cool. Let's just go build that and see what happens." It's always, we're listening to the footwear brands and what they don't currently have, but they really want. So that durability test that we call our time machine, and it's got kind of a funny name there. We call it the time machine for two reasons. Number one, it lets you see what your footwear looks like in the future. Number two, Christopher Lloyd, who's the actor that was the scientist in the Back to the Future movies, happens to— yes, here in Santa Barbara, where I call home and where Helux's lab is. And when we were building that machine, we have a lot of footwear brands that come visit us here in our lab, and we used to have to keep the machine covered up in a tarp. And so we used to joke that it was a DeLorean time machine. And then I was like, realized like, well, wait, we could call this machine the time machine. That's pretty fun. You know, back to your original question, is one of the things that was most important to us is that this machine, it had to do the durability, but it had to be as close to human movement as possible. So A lot of the validation work and a lot of the engineering and innovation went into how do we create a realistic ankle and foot that's hyper-tunable so we can simulate somebody that has a very stable foot or an unstable foot, or we have a very flexible foot or a very inflexible foot, or we can change their body weight or how fast they move. So in addition to being very fast, the machine is tunable that we can replicate almost anybody in the world in their walking pattern.

So you had over 50 people and you did 500, 500 pairs of shoes last year as well in your testing?

Yeah, so we had, we had over 50 brands test with us in, in 2017 and 2018.

Nice.

Last year for the calendar year of 2018, we did over 100, we did 112 studies. That was our biggest year ever. Yeah, so we've been growing quite steadily over the last, like the last 5 years have really been a particularly good growth time for Helux.

Amazing, and I guess that's not going to stop in 2019. So what's going to happen this year?

As much as I am an impatient guy, I also like to have a plan for the business. And we've developed systems now that we can become a lot more efficient while still offering the quality of the testing that a lot of brands have come to expect from us. And so by 2020, we want to be working with over 100 footwear brands, and we want to be doing over 200 studies a year. So roughly doubling from what we did in 2018 to where we're going to be in 2020. Not only are we doing— working with more brands, but because we've also had new technologies like the SensorSock that we developed along with Sensoria, they were a great partner for us, and we have a new traction test that I actually don't have any video that's public yet, but that thing's just got finished patenting, and that is a really exciting system. It's a more human-based traction test, and that launches this year. So We have some, some great things for the brands. Again, they've already been asking for this stuff. Now we have it and we expect to have really good growth from it.

Awesome. Awesome. It's great. I mean, you talk about new technology. Are there other new technologies in the marketplace right now that are helping to create sort of better, more comfortable shoes?

You know, it's really interesting. I think that's a great question. Like, what are some of the other technologies that are out there? Frankly, you know, I, I love research scientists that write papers because I'm a nerd and I like to read that stuff. But frankly, those scientists are much more focused on producing research reports that other scientists read. They're not as interested in developing technologies that help make consumer products. And I think this is true for both the apparel industry and the footwear industry. In that regard, I see very, very little new technology being developed that's going to help us in making better products. And if you look at, say, like the Consumer Electronics Show that happened in Las Vegas recently, there was some stuff that was like, oh, hey, look at this wearable tech that's going to show you something about your body. Right. But there's very little tech. It's like consumer-focused tech. There's very little tech on the, on the business side and the product development side that's helping us analyze the product. I think digital design is starting to take leaps forward. We have very little technology that's new and cool for analyzing how well that digitally designed product.

If you were not doing Helux, then what would— what technology would you try and come up with to help the industry?

You know, here's the thing. I— we love talking with the technology companies because a lot of times we can speak their science language, but we also know what the brands are asking us. I feel like we're in a really fortunate position to be a trusted advisor to a lot of the brands that we work with. So say if like Under Armour comes to me and say, "Hey, we're looking for a sensor that can do this," I'm gonna go hit up all the tech companies that we know and say, "Hey, I know Under Armour has this need. Is there anything you have that can fill in that need?" So I do like being the bridge there to try and help develop a lot of these things. The one thing that I would love to be able to create is something that would tell people when it was time to replace their shoes. To me, both from like my old medical side and seeing like runners or people in the gym that are just wearing shoes that are way too old, occupational people that are wearing shoes where the tread has worn out so much that it's no longer slip resistant. I think if people were replacing their shoes in a reasonable timeframe before those shoes had broken down, it's better for the consumer because they're probably going to get injured less and feel more comfortable. It's better for the retailers because they're going to sell product at a more regular rate, and it's better for the brands because they're going to be selling product at a more reasonable rate. In that regard, everybody wins. But I have tried to get tech companies behind this, and none of the tech companies are working at it. And I have retailers and brands asking me to find something for this. So it's not really in Helux's wheelhouse right now, but man, that would be my number one focus if I could do it. The number 2 thing, and, uh, kids' footwear, like in, like, uh, early walkers and toddlers, man, there's hardly any research that's ever been done on that. And we developed some systems here that can quantify how well a kid's shoe fits, but there's very few standards. And as I understand it, the return rate for kids' shoes is horrible. It's like almost like 40 or 45%. It's like the highest return shoe online right now. I don't see anybody doing anything to try and get kids into better fitting shoes and help parents, help make it easy for parents. I would love to work on that project, but again, it's not really in Helix's wheelhouse right now.

Have you done much testing with kids' shoes?

We have. I was really resistant to do it because I knew that we have, say, like our, we have over 100 men's size 9 runners, US men's size 9 runners, so we can get like a running shoe test done easily. We have, you know, over 60 women that wear size 7 high heels and that walk in heels regularly. So high heel test, boom, we can get 10 testers in, no problem. Kids are always growing. So getting testers in quickly is really difficult. But then when we were talking with the brands, kids' shoe brands also have this problem, and each one is having to repeat that same thing of recruiting kids over and over. So if we do the recruiting for kids' brands, then the brands don't have to do that each one. So we're actually doing the same amount of work, but more brands benefit from it. So once we started doing that, we realized, hey, brands don't want to have to keep recruiting kids. We just have to recruit them once to serve 10 brands. So that was a really big efficiency thing for the kids' footwear brands. And then once we started getting in there, we realized that, well, some of the things that we use to measure adult footwear isn't appropriate for kids' footwear. So we developed some new tools. We have to make it fun for the kids. So, you know, we'll have stickers and candy, things that we would you know, maybe adults would like, I don't know. And so we developed these systems to analyze kids' footwear that are really effective, um, and that's a, that's an area that's continued to grow for us in the last like 2 years, uh, and we expect to do more, uh, and there's, there's some really great brands that are doing some really exciting things in kids' footwear right now, um, and so we feel like we've been very influential in helping them make better product for kids, and, uh, and, and it's exciting to see because I know it's going to be better for kids' foot health, which will then be good as they become adults.

Well, that's exactly what I was going to say. That's a really important thing. I'm sure as well, what you would find is kids walk, from what I can tell, pretty different to adults.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so crazy because from the time kids first start taking steps, their feet are a different shape than an adult's. Their movements are a different shape than adults. And then like maybe 6 months later, they change again. And then once they become like a big kid, it changes again. And so really up until the time that they're 7, their movements are never like an adult's, but a lot of times we're just shrinking down adult footwear and throwing it on a kid. And in addition to developmental problems, it's also usually a pain in the butt for parents to put these shoes on a kid's foot. So the parents don't like it. The kids can't tell you how bad it is because they just don't know what they're supposed to be assessing. So it's a really important thing that's been really underserved. And I think, you know, You know, I don't want to throw the kids brands under the bus because they're really doing the best that they could with what information was available. But kids footwear product has so much room to get better.

Well, it's an exciting area, and I'm sure, you know, they— that's really music to anyone's ears, is that there's room for growth in their industry. For them, I guess, as well, kids really don't like putting on shoes either, right? And maybe there's a reason behind that, you know, and if you put all this sort of work in and you get all this research in, maybe you find a reason behind that.

It's funny because we get to see that, we get to see the temper tantrums in here sometimes. But you know, it is interesting because we do start to see the patterns of what kids like. And usually what kids like is also in line with what parents like. And so there is a way to make product that everybody likes and it doesn't have to be more expensive. It just has to be designed and developed well. I think using this data and then analyzing the data to get an answer will help these brands continue to make stuff that the kids don't want to kick off.

Yeah, exactly. Talk to me about the more performance side of the testing that you do. Do you do track shoes? I mean, you do everything, right?

Absolutely everything, man. I think the one, the one sport that we haven't really dove into that I am actually, I really would like to because it's so big in Asia is badminton. But pretty much every other sport we've spent time researching that footwear. So, you know, we've even done like booties for surfers because we're really close to the beach and there's a lot of great professional surfers here in town. So like booties and track pads for their boards that surfers can use to have like better foot performance on their board, to lacrosse players, to— I mean, rugby players are some of my favorite because they're just total badasses. Chinese basketball players and US basketball players for shoe fit and traction. Sporting-wise, you name it, we do it.

How do you measure things like rugby or badminton, something like this where there's a lot of side-to-side movement? You know, it's not just on a track, just running forward, which I guess is probably maybe a more simpler test. I don't know, that might be showing my ignorance.

No, you are 100% correct. Multi-directional sports are so much more difficult. And you know, this is why Helix wanted to spend time developing the sensors that we could put in the shoe. We basically— I like to say we measure two key things. It's how does the foot interact with the shoe and how does the shoe interact with the ground. Shoe interacting with the ground is like force plates and complex stuff that we usually have to have in a more lab setting. But foot interacting with the shoe is where we've been the most innovative. And now we have things like the sensor sock or the tape-on sensors, thermal sensors as well, that we can put on any athlete, whether it's a Tour de France cyclist or a recreational soccer player. We can have the, that product on them. It's not interfering with their ability to do their sport. And then we go collect all this data. And that data, you know, data by itself is boring. Data, data alone is worthless, but we also have the analysis tools that can tell us what they're doing. So, you know, kind of if we look at, say, a soccer player, we have the ability to tell like, oh, hey, hey, they're running down the field at this point. This is when they made a cutting movement. This is when they backpedaled. This is when they jumped. This is when they kicked the ball. Our algorithms for these in-shoe sensors can figure all of that out. And so when we combine that with video, we get a ton of data. And again, it always goes back to what, what are we going to use that data for to help make the footwear better?

That's a really cool part of the job, I bet, as well. If you, if you're into sports and seeing these guys run around and yeah, it must be quite a cool part of the job.

Yeah, it's not bad, you know. And luckily Santa Barbara, where we are, is gifted with just amazing weather 99% of the year. So in December, when a lot of the US was cold and rainy and snowy, we were out at the golf course testing golf shoes. It's also, you know, I love calling this place home, but it's also really important because we could do hiking shoes on a trail any time of year. We could go test, you know, baseball cleats on a field any time of the year. We can test runners outdoors any time of the year. So that it is somewhat influential into why we're able to do what we do.

Absolutely. You know, it's kind of business critical to have that variety because that's the one thing I always hear about California. You know, you can go skiing or you can go surfing and you're always, you know, a couple of hours away from either one of those. So it's kind of important to have that in your industry, you know, where you're at.

I'm very fortunate that this is, this is where we ended up being, man.

Good stuff. Look, Dr. Gray, I just want to say thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been a real insight to biomechanics and footwear for me, and I know that the audience are going to really enjoy it. Great.

I'm so appreciative that you gave me a platform to help share some of the things that we've learned about shoes. It's, it's great to be with you today.

Absolutely. Anyone wants to check these guys out, it's Dr. Jeffrey Gray at Heluxe, H-E-L-U-X-E. Check them out, doing some really cool stuff. Once again, Dr. Grey, thank you.

Thank you, be well. Everybody get up!