Is Circularity Just a Buzzword in Fashion? | Fashion Made S4E10

This is a pure valuable resource, a resource for new fabric. And so we also started this fiber circle, got the old waste, so-called waste. For them it's waste, for us it's new fiber for new materials. We collected it and now put it back into the fiber circle.

Welcome, Tabia van Leer. Nice to have you here.

Thank you for inviting me.

Obviously, I've known you for quite some time. And you've had quite an interesting career from working at Puma to a lot of the sponsors that are here, Lectra, Cornet. And now you are at Angel Heart.

That's correct.

Which we've spoken about. Interesting name.

Yeah, it is.

But I was really excited to talk to you about sustainability because I think in fashion it's often, you know, it's a, it's a line item.

Yeah.

And it'd be interesting to get into the weeds on, yeah, what sustainability means to you and also, yeah, what it means to this sector. Because I think that, I think there's a bit of fatigue with the word. Yeah. People are fed up a bit and no one sees anything really changing. So yeah, welcome. And yeah, I think it'd be interesting to, to hear a bit more about your journey.

Yeah. Yeah, as you mentioned, the journey started, I don't know, 15 to 20 years back, or maybe longer, at Puma in the product development. And then I came across some Japanese company, Toray, you may know it, then Lectra. And I think during Lectra times, my kind of interest for waste, waste management and optimized cutting rooms started. And I'm happy that we can go in this direction in terms of sustainability today. So reducing waste, and we recently you talked about, I feel sometimes like a motakai person. It's a Japanese word and it's about regretting waste. And I feel like this kind of person. Yeah. So after Lectra, as you said, I came across Performance Days, also had my share there, and then lately worked for Kornit. And the Kornit customer just say, come on, we are doing a spin-off. A combination from the initial spark, the design, the graphic design, up to a vertical production. And this is how my journey started just 4 months back. And yeah, we are owning our own production sites in Europe and in Asia. So we are prepared for both, depends on the volume. We are mostly at Angelheart focused on merch. So music merch, we are coming from the music industry, also lots from the UK. And also from the football merch. So maybe Eintracht Frankfurt is something you know. We support them since a few years. So it also reminds me of Puma times because I worked in the special makeup department, SMU department, and most of the time you have little time, little resource, and you need to solve all the problems and all the issues. And I enjoyed the day. At PIR Apparel a lot. But I also realized that we are into product creation all the time. We produce more, more, more, more, more, faster, faster, faster. And yeah, as you said, the sustainability is a buzzword and we are all fatigued, as you said, of this. But still, I can't stop talking about it and showing my vision or showing my perspective in this.

Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, you're right because this, the, the event, particularly with technology, with AI, mm-hmm, is geared towards how can we be smarter? How can we understand that Gen Z consumer?

Yeah.

And sell them more and fatten them up and fatten them up and fatten them up. And of course that's a normal thing to wanna do because if you're in product creation, that's what you are, you are paid to do is understand the consumer and get a, the right product to market as fast as you can. But there is no real emphasis. Yeah. You know, that's the engine room of a business. It's the profit center of a business. And it's like, you know, fashion just hires loads of salespeople but doesn't have anyone working in HR. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's what it feels like. So, so yeah, I think when it, looking at that, looking at waste, I'm interested in your perspective on waste because That is an area that certainly I think you have some direct experience with.

Yeah, exactly. So I mentioned that we at Angel Heart, we can be your graphic design department, we can be your product development department and production, but we also taking care especially in the merch. Let's name the, or drop the example of music merch. So you are doing a tour, you're producing everything upfront. There's almost nothing on demand nowadays. And then the tour is over and you have 50, 60, 70,000 of pieces, t-shirts, hoodies, whatever. It's just they are, they are there.

Yeah.

And you can't use them next year because they are produced with the current tour dates and everything. So what's gonna happen with this? And, um, this is why also my waste heart bumped up again and we decided to bring it back to a fiber circle. So we collected all the items from the customers we worked with and brought it back to a circle. And also, I mean, also doing today, we are in a hotel, we are in the, I call it Grand Budapest Hotel. I realized that most of the people, they use their mugs, whatever they use it once, they throw it away. There was only one person at least what I saw in this entire event, who brought a bottle, a water bottle. So we are creating waste, waste, waste. And also within this hotel, I'm pretty sure that, yeah, some bed linen and stuff, they are rented, yes. But from my experience and also our current project, I'm not allowed to drop the name from the hotel chain, but it's a big hotel chain, they have 10% they are buying. And they're buying these bathrobes and slippers. They're buying every 2 years or every year for the slippers. And we had a look on one hotel and the one hotel was about 150,000 bathrobes a year.

Jesus Christ.

So this is waste, but it's also—

They just throw away.

They throw away or they give it to Romania. So this is obvious. And then no one knows what's going to happen. But this is a poor valuable resource, a resource for new fabrics.

Fabric.

And, um, so we also started this fiber circle, got the all the waste— so-called waste for them, it's waste for us, it's, it's new fiber for new materials— we collected it and now put it back into the fiber circle. And luckily, technology is far already to create new fabrics out of it with 30% post-consumer waste. And I think this is brilliant. And then if you collect all the numbers and data from all the hotel chains, and I know it's not the fashion industry.

Well, it is. But it is. Yeah.

Yeah. It's impressive numbers.

Amazing. Amazing. So basically these hotels, so in terms of how that would, how would that work if you are a brand like Puma or you are a brand like H&M or you're a brand like I don't know, Zara.

Mm-hmm.

How, how do you think it's possible to make that process more circular? Which is to say, like Zara, from what I know, they, you, for each of their runs, they'll use 4 or 5 materials across men and women's.

Mm-hmm.

So how do, how do you think sustainability bridges a gap between these different sectors, hospitality and fashion? That's a, that's a tricky question because I'm not, maybe we should start a business doing that.

Maybe we should, maybe we should bridging the gap in between. I'm not sure if the industries even really look at each other, if they are interested into each other. I'm not sure. But yeah, I think, I mean, we are a small company, so we are also doing, we're starting small. So the H&M, the Inditex, they all have their own circularity. And even we are always underlining that we are not closing the loop, we are closing the eyes. It's still true. I think they're going to make it happen. But we start, yeah, let's say in another direction and in another industry.

So you're saying closing the loop, we're not closing the loop, we're closing our eyes.

That's just a feeling. That's my personal feeling.

That's interesting. That's interesting.

Because we want, yes, we want to close the loop. But yeah, where to start and to restart again.

Yeah. And in terms of the digital product passport that's coming in, do you see that having any real impact on sustainability or do you see it as another thing to work around?

I think it has. And also, yeah, my dear friends from Lektrai, I learned more about Textile Genesis today, which is an amazing technology. I really liked it also for traceability and all the different steps. But the digital product pass is another way of putting more effort to the team and more tasks to do. But yeah, I mean, I told you we have our own production facilities and they are already forced to, forced, asked to work with the digital product code. But there is also another amazing, maybe you've heard about technology called Word of Pi. Have you ever heard about this?

I think it rings a bell. Yeah. Yeah.

They are also taking care of this part of the digital products pass, but also that you can stay into interaction with your consumer and with your customer. So once the product is bought online, you can stay and, yeah, I don't know.

That's by a QR code, right?

Yes, a QR code.

So that's an on-chain solution.

It is, it is. And then you have a steady exchange with them. Yeah. And then you, of course, push also for more and new products. Yeah.

But, um, it's amazing.

Yeah.

And in terms of, um, in terms of like sustainability outside of waste, mm-hmm. How do you think the fashion industry, which is the second biggest pollutant sector on the planet, mm-hmm. So second only to energy, which is pretty disgusting.

It is, yeah.

It is pretty disgusting.

Yeah.

But then what we're saying is that we as consumers are pretty disgusting. And so do you feel like until humans change the way they view value, the way we value this table, these shoes, the way, the way we've untethered ourselves from humanity and what it takes to build something and we've become so transactional, do you think that the people working in the fashion sector, if we can change the mindsets at that level, that perhaps that will permeate through the product or?

I think it starts with education, right? Mm-hmm. So, maybe even starting at school, whatever, to really explain how long it takes to grow the cotton and to harvest everything. Because I told you, we're working with the musicians, with the new stars coming up. They have zero idea how the industry works, but they want it now, they want it fast, they have the community, and they don't give the real respect to the industry. And this really hurts. It hurts.

Yeah.

So therefore, for me, it starts with education at a very, very early stage.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I think that— I don't know if you have any other final words.

Yeah. All that glitter is not green yet, but we're going to work on it.

All the glitters is not green yet.

Yeah.

Okay. There we go. Yeah. Well, Tabby, really nice to have you here and thank you for coming.