Merging 3D Printing & Textiles for Sustainable Fashion with Garrett Gerson | Fashion Made S4E3

When you open up our software, it's just intuitive to be able to work it. You do one thing one time and it waterfalls and cascades and does every action for you. So you make a change in our platform, it automatically makes all those changes all the way down. You want to grade it, you now upload 3D models, it instantly creates the grades for you. It, it, it always holds on to the designer's intent of that design and it shows the designer what they're going to get in a high-fidelity 3D model. These are the things that we're bringing to the market.

Really great to have you, Garrett, on the Fashion Made podcast. I've been excited about this because, um, obviously we had a chat a couple of weeks ago, and, uh, from that point, everybody that I'm speaking to in the industry is, is speaking about what you guys are doing and about you personally. So welcome. I'd love you, um, maybe just to sort of introduce yourself and Variant3D and, uh, yeah. Tell our listeners what, what's going on.

Oh, thanks for having me on, and yeah, it's, it's great to have this chat. Uh, so, you know, uh, my name is Garrett Gerson. I'm the co-founder of Variant3D. Started the company a little over 7 years ago. 2 of the 7 years was me actually buying machine, learning how to program in the traditional CAD system, and then realizing there had to be a better way to, you know, really do this. So Variant3D, at our core, is we've, we've created software that knits, um, You know, we're revolutionizing the textile industry, uh, by bridging the gap between digital, uh, design and physical production. Uh, that's a really big leap in the space. I've been in the industry for a little over 23 years now. Uh, started in fashion, uh, through uniforms with our family business, kind of a very, very, very roundabout way of getting into the business. Um, had both a really successful fashion company, sold to 300 high-end retailers, also had a textile company. But, you know, at the core was a uniform company that took off and evolved into, as any good entrepreneur, once people start buying your stuff, you lean into it. And then, you know, the big shift was 7 years ago, I watched a documentary called The True Cost by Andrew Morgan, and it really opened my eyes to, you know, the waste and it made me really reflect internally to see, you know, to see and validate my supply chain. And, and that was the kind of the genesis of Variant 3D and trying to print on demand and think of, could we print and create product on demand, uh, like 3D printing?

It's really awesome. It's really awesome. And I was like, obviously we've got an event coming up in Portland called Stride, and we've got some, like, a lot of the people you will know, uh, will be there. And it's a footwear-specific event, but A lot of people are saying a lot of good things about what you're doing, and there is a bit of a movement, I think, particularly in footwear towards sustainability. From my perspective, and I think a lot of people have this opinion in the fashion and retail space, is sustainability is a line item and it's not necessarily something that fundamental changes are being made to address. And, you know, the reality is that you are bringing a technology which is often the antidote to those issues. That's what's really exciting, I think. And yeah, so I'd love to find out more. I'd love you to tell people more about kind of how it works at a high level because lots of 3D printing has existed for a long time in the fashion space and, you know, digital design has existed for a long time and we're very close with a lot of the big players in that space. So it'd be interesting for our audience to understand how you're merging those two worlds.

Absolutely. I mean, the thing that, you know, as I was kind of searching, doing a bit of soul searching, looking at what technologies were out there, I looked at traditional 3D printing and it's only at the moment now coming to a place where you can actually print at some scale, but it's really for, it's more of a harder composite, you know, bottom and it's nothing in the fabric space. What blew me away when I started looking at knitting, both circular and flatbed knitting, and what really intrigued me about flatbed knitting, it's the closest thing to 3D printing. It's really a whole additive process. The issue, and I think the thing that's been the glass ceiling to the whole industry in this space, is the software is very complicated. It took me 2 years of— I mean, I had to— anything I'm curious in, I have to learn 100% myself. And, you know, after 2 years of even with a mentor, I was a— I still am a pretty poor junior programmer. And when I started doing the time, like the timeframe of what it would take me to be somewhat of a, you know, kind of a master knitwear engineer, I have to dedicate 20 years of my life. And then it's also the time it takes, right? A shoe and foot— so footwear and apparel are kind of our focus right now. It's got the biggest, you know, it's got the biggest momentum in the space. A lot of people are interested in this space. And it's actually, 70% of the apparel and products we buy right now is made on this platform, right? Either through circular knit or flatbed knitting. Circular makes up a bigger, bigger part of that space, but everything from your leggings to socks, underwear, and then, you know, your t-shirts, sweaters. And then you look at footwear, you know, the knit footwear industry is— there's been very little innovation to that space since, you know, since Nike launched Flyknit. And a primary reason for that is it's incredibly complicated. It takes a long time, you know, from ideation to bringing it to market could take 18 to, you know, 24 months. We're significantly condensing that time now. So how does Variant3D work? We're looking at using traditional digital tools. How do you want to design? We design in 3D. So really we're a 3D design software platform. Everything you do in 3D, what you create in 3D, is abstracted and creates all the machine-generated files in what is called a BMP, which is the machine language that teaches the— I mean, that instructs the machine to make that fabric. And what's interesting about what we do is we can take very complex 3-dimensional shapes. We have lots of patents around this. And one thing I wanna really like drive home is we have patents in the space, not because we need, we wanna own the space, it's because we wanna make sure that everyone has access to it. 'Cause a big thing for us is democratization. Big thing for our team is creating access. And then you talk about sustainability. This is the most sustainable way to make a product. The problem is, is it's incredibly complicated. It's hard to do. I mean, it is, I have so much respect for Knit engineers because you need to understand pattern making, the CAD software system, material science. You have to bring all those disciplines together into one thing. I mean, it is incredibly complicated. But because it's complicated, it's really exciting. And I feel like the reason why we were able to solve it was we brought a lot of people outside the industry together with people who have been in the industry for 30, 40+ years, you know, since there were automated manual, you know, key card machines, you know, from the genesis of, you know, mechanical knitting to where we are today.

Amazing, man. Amazing. And you touched on something that's quite, to me personally, quite interesting, which is democratization and decentralization.

Yes, yes.

And that interests me in fashion and other sectors as well. So like, how would you see longer term Variant 3D? What you've done here is basically change the entire lead time for product development and production. And so you have potentially the opportunity then to have almost like edge fashion, right? Like edge computing, but edge fashion, provided that the tech is affordable, right? And so how do you think— is there any, um, plans to try and make, uh, product development and design, because you come from this background, more accessible to a wider group of people, to sort of break down some of the doors of the fashion space, which is quite, uh, set in its ways?

Yes, I mean, I think we, we're trying— we're meeting everyone where where they're comfortable. So engineers where they're comfortable, designers where they're comfortable, and bringing tools that everyone's been asking for for decades. I mean, it's so— it's really interesting. I mean, I wanted it originally. I built this tool for myself. I was like, there's no way— if I need to create a, you know, a collection and I want it to be unique and individual, and I want to be able to have, you know, and really push the boundaries, there's no way I could do it in the traditional— the traditional way of, uh, engineering and design, right? There's so many people that have to touch it and I think that's the problem right now in fashion, right? A designer comes out with a design, they have to create a tech pack, that tech pack goes to a pattern maker. I mean, it's, you go from, and it's, the other thing is, which I've always found interesting is it's, we're designing in a, we're in a 3D world designing in 2D flat patterns, right? So we've really focused in on, we're in a, you know, we're effectively a 3D shape. We can take OBJ or 3D body scans of whatever part of your body, segment it. and then we can break it off and create programs and patterns out of it. So talk like, how do we, like, how does this change the landscape of, you know, of how people design in the future? It's intuitive. I mean, the whole thing for us, I mean, I'm all about, I love, you know, it's like how Steve Jobs built the whole Apple ecosystem platform. You know, it is just, it just, when you open up an iPad, it's just intuitive. When you open up our software, It's just intuitive to be able to work it. You do one thing one time and it waterfalls and cascades and does every action for you. So you make a change in our platform, it automatically makes all those changes all the way down. You want to grade it, you now upload 3D models, it instantly creates the grades for you. It, it, it always holds on to the designer's intent of that design and it shows the designer what they're going to get in a high-fidelity 3D model. These are the things that we're bringing to the market. I mean, it's like So then you talk about sustainability, what does that do? You not having to make dozens or hundreds, and in some cases in footwear, thousands of samples, right? You can digitally do all that. And then there are other parts of our research team using machine learning and to be able to digitally validate this and physically simulate how that textile will react and drape. And then ultimately you'll be able to test it in a digital space.

It's incredible. It's incredible. And I know certainly on the retail side of things, collision is something that seems to be quite a difficult thing. I can't believe that 10 years after someone was mentioning it to me, it's still an issue because I still, I still can't use an app or a phone and buy and buy a product in 3D. I can't. So it's a very exciting time. But, but, but yeah, I think it's, it's super exciting what you guys are doing. And then what One question that came to mind as you were just talking there was AI. And I think we spoke about this when we first connected. But AI is often conflated with intuitive. But by definition, it kind of is. So how important is that being in terms of investment within the business? Is there a big payslip to GPUs every month to try and drive that kind of intuitive, seamless, experience for, for the user?

Uh, it's, it's really important. I mean, we have a— so we've broken— so my co-founder and CTO, uh, William, has, has been really thoughtful on how he's built the team. So we've broken out a research team within the company. So all we do is we are, you know, we have people now working on, uh, using, leveraging and looking at AI models. We're having conversations with, uh, some pretty large players in the space to work with us. Because we, we do have a solution that, that can feed these large language models to, you know, to, to loop back, uh, into our software. It's all about creating smarter programs, right, that can learn on itself. And that's another big thing too, right, is, is right now when you design something, there's no version 2, version 3. It's every time you design something and you bring it to market, you have to start all over again. Why? Because there is no commonality in language and programming. It's wild. I mean, I thought it's the wildest thing I've ever— it's like, you know, you can, which it's amazing, right? I think what the machine manufacturers have done with the software is given you unfeathered flexibility, but there's no structure. So we're trying to bring that commonality in language. But no, I mean, we are heavily invested in and believe in the future of, you using AI in this space. I think it's going to exponentially accelerate how we create new products, programs, how, you know, and a big thing is creating a repository for the world's knowledge in this space. What's happening in this field is some of the most incredible engineers are starting to retire. That knowledge doesn't get passed down anywhere and it's lost. And, you know, it's, I almost feel like it, not almost, we feel as a team It's kind of our responsibility to create a repository that the next generation can access. And if you don't, then where does it go? It's gone.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's kind of almost by proxy of what's going on at the moment with this particular technological revolution is kind of happening by proxy across most sectors. But I think one very interesting topic in fashion in particular attracting those tech minds. Because if you are 22 or 21 or 20, you know, you've just got out of uni and you've got that mind and you're mathematically charged, you're— the people aren't heading to fashion, they're heading to, you know, the frontier lab. So that's a whole other issue I think that fashion needs to deal with, and, and we're in a transition period for sure. Um, but yeah, I think one thing that would be quite interesting for me to understand from, from your perspective is what you think at the moment, sustainability, where you think that really is falling short in fashion. Like, I'm getting— I think I know what, why it is, but I'd be interested in your opinion on, on what's really happening. But let's hone in on footwear specifically. Yeah, that'd be interesting to get your take on that.

Nice. I think— I mean, so there's a lot of— there are a lot of perspectives in sustainability. I— so I have, um, you know, I always had had a thought. I never— I always have felt that big brands have always wanted to do good, except for, you know, the thing is, is consumer behavior drives, you know, a lot of what they do, right? So it's not like a Zara or an H&M or all these companies are trying to do— I, I think if in essence if they could do better, they would, but there isn't a technology platform that facilitates that. Why would you want to overproduce? Reduce. Why would you want to have all this excess stock? Why would you want to throw away or burn? That doesn't make any sense, right? Because that affects your bottom line. The— just the thing is the supply chain is really— is, is broken, um, and it hasn't— it hasn't been a big investment, uh, in the space to bring— you know, there hasn't been a big investment in the space to bring up, right, uh, the, you know, a closer or shorter supply chain. So there's a lot of exciting things that are happening right now. So you talk about footwear, what we can do is, you know, by digitization of design, by creating something that's closer to the designer's intended, like, actual design, and then creating a high-fidelity 3D model that's realistic. Oh, and we're getting to a point in some of our research models that the actual digital piece looks exactly like the real one. So why make it when you can actually design it, put it up, sell it, and then you make it? You know, the sales cycle is a little bit, is a little broken, right? Right now you've gotta, you have to design today for something 18 to 24 months out. You have to place the orders. You know, that's what killed me when I had my fashion brand is I was at the trade shows, I was at Coterie writing orders. Literally second day into Coterie, I was calling the factory to place my orders, trying to project what I had to sell. And then you have your MOQs, right? That's the other thing. It's like, You know, your MOQs are like, if you want to, it's kind of crazy. It's like if I order 200, what I sold, well shoot, if I order 500, it's about the same price, right? Or 1,000, the price, there's price breaks in there. And I understand all that. It's like when you have to set up a factory, you have to set up the machines, you have to amortize that cost into the actual product. So the more you can run in a certain color and a certain size, you know, the faster, it just, it's a machine. So we're trying to, we're rethinking that. I mean, knitting. Flatbed knitting is probably— I keep coming back to this— is the most— it is the closest thing that will ever get to 3D printing a physical textile product. It is a space that is— it is a huge blue ocean out there that we are looking to, you know, uncap or remove that glass ceiling to, so everybody has access to it. The problem is that you need to have, you know, a quarter of a million or half a million dollars worth of you know, per, you know, individual, like, talent if you could find them, machinery. I mean, there's so much stuff you need to have. We're trying to do is democratize all that, you know. And then, and then the other thing is, is about, you know, so I know this is— this question is about sustainability, but I think it all— I will— I'll land the plane here. But, you know, you know, it's the big thing of what we're doing with democratization, which I think this definitely leads into sustainability, is you should be able to access and design wherever you are. Our big dream is I want to be— when I go to Fiji and I go on my surf trip, I would love to be able to access and design a collection while I'm on the beach. Or I want to be when I'm in a museum and I find inspiration, you know, because we're very design first. I want— when I have inspiration, I want to be able to open up my iPad or my, my, my, my tablet or my phone or my laptop, have access, design something, put it in this— into a space where now everyone can actually see it. But now I've untapped one user, one key, one location. What does that do is when you do all— when you silo everything out, it means you have to create a physical sample to be approved. There's a ton of waste to then run through a whole process, right, to get changed. That's what eats up all the time. And then you want to sample it. It's got to go to, you know, go somewhere in the Far East, right, or somewhere, right, where your manufacturing hub is. They don't know exactly what the design intent is. They're reading it off of a paper design, you know, a tech pack. They're trying to optimize production. What we're trying— what we're doing is we— you— when you— whatever you design, it's digitally embedded into us. It's into a digital tech pack, and they could actually export out or pull out that file, plug it right in the machine, and make it. So there's no— there's no miscommunication or understanding of what you want and what you're going to get.

There's no friction. There's no friction. And you know the interesting thing about processes like that? I forget what it's called. Cambrian, I think. The Cambrian effect is like a Cambrian effect, right, where innovation is increased by the fact that creativity isn't stifled, right? And if you have a true use case where you've got, you know, potentially hundreds of thousands of people able to execute on that creative thought and in real time be able to then, like, the full lifecycle. It's funny as well, I digress, but you mentioned Design Make Sell. We're actually running an event in Hong Kong at the end of this year called Design Make Sell. But, you know, it should really be Design, Sell, Make, right? It should really be Design, Sell, Make. So we're going to play around with that as a title. But, um, but I love it. I really, I really love, um, you know, it's— there's a lot of technology vendors in this space. There's a lot of people, um, and there's not that many people that move the needle. And I think what you're describing here really is a bit of a game changer. One thing— so well done, Garrett. Yeah, so one thing, um, I I'm interested in your take on agent-to-agent commerce because I'm having lots of conversations with end users and fashion brands and sponsors, and I don't, I feel like either I'm banging the drum incessantly for no reason or people don't quite get it in fashion in so much as, you know, I'm talking at the brand level in building a roadmap over the next 5 years to have a true agent-to-agent existence. And that's across all transactions, it's across all supply chains. I don't know that the brands that we're talking to, or that I know that I'm speaking to, fully grasp how important that is going to be for survival over the next 10 years. I'd be interested to kind of understand your take on it because you're obviously dealing with some of the frontier labs and you're part of that as well, I would say.

Yeah, I mean, what we're doing is building a software for designers to be able to really bring So I mean, we're doing it in phases right now, right? It's important to empower the designer to have the tools to directly communicate to the engineer and then allow the engineer, like flipping that 80/20 rule, so the engineer can then innovate and create new products. But no, I mean, it's really important to create more. There's a sea of sameness, you know, and if you look in the footwear industry, there's a bit of a sea of sameness right now. That's limited because of, well, investment, time. And then a lot of factories, what they're doing is they're just, they're creating a bunch of programs and then they're selling it, they're shopping it, selling to everyone. And then if you look at Knitted Uppers right now, the big unique differentiation is let's glue a bunch of new stuff on it or let's add, you know, different things. Well, then that brings you back to sustainability because the closer you can get to a mild material, the more sustainable a product is. But being able to, you know, where we are starting right now, and, you know, part of our business model is let's get big brands that have been interested in investing in the space onto the platform to design and create products and really revolutionize it quicker so we can plug into their factory partners. You know, the next phase is let's then get it into the hands of students, right? And let them, let them actualize their ideas. And what's happening in the US, which is really exciting, is there's a wave of, you know, new micro factories that are popping up. So, you know, one is KX Labs in LA. It's been kind of the forefront, in the forefront of, you know, high-end knit design development and manufacturing. And that's really— and those are starting to kind of populate within the US. And I think that's going to happen in Europe. It's happening in Europe. It's happening all over the place. But I think the closer you can bring a customer or collaborations or collaborative partners to a brand to actualize something quickly. I mean, that is the future, right? It's all about— I mean, people want to— it's, it's leveraging brand, brands across different markets.

Yeah, yeah, it's exciting. And that's a fact. Speaking of that kind of location, we're doing like a bit of a drinks reception at the Stride event in Portland at Maiden Old Town. I don't know if you've heard. Oh yeah.

That place. We actually have a space there.

Oh, do you? Oh, do you?

We're going to Elias.

Um, yeah, yeah, Elias. Yeah, he's a good guy.

So, yeah, great guy. What a visionary. And, uh, so we— he's— we'll have a space where you'll be able to, uh, utilize the platform to design and create and then plug it into that ecosystem.

Awesome, awesome. And, um, what else was I thinking about talking to you about? Oh, um, software as a service. Is dead, apparently, according to Microsoft, is dead. I don't know if that's true. I think margins are going to get hit. I think AI is going to eat up some margins. But I think, I think the opposite is probably true in fashion, actually.

Yes.

I don't know, I don't know what your thoughts are.

No, I mean, I, uh, you have to offer value, right? It's, uh, you can't have a bunch of user licenses where there's— you, you return very little value. I think what we offer here is, is a tremendous amount of value in, in time savings. And then what we're looking to do is plug into other factory partners and really kind of close that loop in everything you do with design, right? You know, it's interesting. We are, we are, so SaaS is part of our roadmap in the business model for our CAD/CAM software system. We're doing guided development right now because it's so new and so fast. People aren't really understanding the tools, so we're kind of guiding them through it over the next 12 months. But I can tell you right now, it's, I mean, we've designed, delivered a shoe finished in 4 weeks. Amazing. That's like, you know, and we are continually, as we launch more features and we partner with other, you know, as we partner with other software companies out there, and it's all about, we want to be the hub to that spoke, right? Let everything— let us, let us kind of, let us kind of bring everything together, and then let's work with everybody and open up our, you know, and plug in as many other softwares that people love to use to accelerate this, this, uh, you know, this development. But I don't think SaaS is dead. I think, I think SaaS— I mean, I think you can't charge— I mean, our— what we'd love to have— I mean, we're working towards having a free model that people can use. Um, I mean, it's you know, again, it's— we, we want to make sure that everyone has access. I truly believe— yeah, I believe there's another— there's, there's a Virgil, there's a, you know, there is the next big designer out there, and they could be somewhere, but maybe they don't have the resources. But if they could get access online, you know, and they can load up their design into our platform, why, why should you— they not be able to bring their, their idea to their community forward.

I have someone actually I need to introduce you to after this. Um, it's a project called Faith Tribe. You know, the— have you heard of the brand Faith Connections? So French—

yeah, okay.

Anyway, yeah, is that because they did something, they did a Web3 kind of launch and it was based around exactly what we've just been talking about. So I've got to connect you guys. Yeah, and I think Farfetch were involved in that as well. Farfetch bought into that. So yeah. We can do that offline though. Yeah.

I love it. That's fantastic. Yeah, I think it's all about all boats rise with rising tides, right? And I think in the fashion industry, I think why it's also been so— it's never really advanced much is everyone's always tried to hold their resources to themselves or they find other emerging technologies like what we've built and try to buy them. And we've been approached many and it's The numbers are interesting, you know, but we're doing it for a different reason. It's not for the money. We're doing it because we want to change everyone's— we want to change the direction of the textile industry as a whole. We want to create transparency. We want to create access and democratization. It's— we're— I mean, there's something bigger than, you know, it's bigger than money. That's why we can't be bought. I mean, it was— all right, that was some interesting— I was like, wow. I had to go to my co-founder. I'm like, you know, we're doing this this way, right? He's like, yes. He's, he's, you know, there's a very altruistic side of, of, of, uh, what we're doing. And I think the team that we've built—

that's, that's awesome, man, because I tell you, I think that the world is short of people who kind of have that moral fortitude. And it's not because they're bad people, but it's because we are— and fashion in particular, but every sector, there's a psychopathy that kind of sits underneath capitalism. Capitalism, and, and it's quite rare that people bring something to market that is truly democratized and that is, is, and that they stay true to that principle. So I respect that, man. I think it's really cool. Um, and I'm hoping that you, like, you can't make the Stride event, can you? You're speaking at another show, but I'm hoping we can get you to maybe Milan or, um, or June New York. There are two kind of product development events, I think I think, you know, as many people need to know about this as possible, and, uh, yeah, we want to help you on this journey.

I would love to. And, you know, the most compelling thing that we can do— we did it in Barcelona, uh, at a, at another speaking thing, uh, speaking engagement I did— is we actually could do— we can design in real time and have a camera at our studio. Anyways, I mean, it's our studio, it's a, it's a retrofitted barn in the middle of Malibu in the mountains. But we have a camera set up with our, with my co-founder, and literally we'll design whatever you want, you know, or you can design it, and we push it into, into the machine and it comes off. And it's like, here you go. And if there's access to a machine in New York, Milan, or whatever, we can actually send that file to, to that machine next to us and we can print it out right there in front of you.

Amazing, amazing, amazing. I mean, I'm thinking about all of the kind of 5, 6 years' time and the, the different business models that could surround the, that as a business as a service, right? Because there's, I there could be a lot of wealth generation actually from every aspect of it, um, not just design and not just selling to a consumer, right? So it's very, very exciting. It's a new economy in, in, in a lot of ways actually. It's a new supply chain, so it's a new economy.

100%. And, and the, the other thing too is we're working in, in other, like, other fields too. It's not just footwear and apparel is, is where we're focusing now, but we've got a project we're working in aerospace, uh, we've working in the transportation automotive industry, We're doing, you know, products in the medical space, in architecture. And what's really interesting about it is a lot of what I've, you know, talked to our team about is, and it's not my idea, but it's really Will's ideas, you know, and is bringing all those kind of those thought leaders in each one of those spaces and sharing that knowledge. So what like Shawn Alquist is doing in structural engineering and design in architecture, to what, you know, like Neri Oxman or, uh, you know, different, you know, uh, different, different engineers in different spaces and footwear and what we're doing in the automotive space with bringing it all together and sharing that. Because what could be applicable to footwear could 100% be applicable to, to the automotive space, right? And, and it's really fun to see how people are drawing inspiration from, from each other. And now it's, it's, it's actually— you think about it as a 3D textile, not so much as, okay, now what's the the advancements that are happening in innovation. Some of them, I mean, I can't talk about them. We're under like a ton of NDAs and the things we're doing, but wow, it is really exciting what's on the horizon. And not like, you know, people always say, oh, you know, we have an innovation you'll see in 10 years. Like, oh my God, 10 years is like a lifetime. Yeah. You'll see this and you'll see some of these things in the next 6 to, you know, 12 months.

Amazing. Amazing. Are they what, the next UFOs designed by you?

Yeah, hey, if they want to do it, they can use our software. I mean, I'd be down.