Mixed Reality: Bridging The Unreal with Matthew Drinkwater, London College of Fashion

Hey, and welcome to another episode of Fashion Made. Today I have the pleasure to be joined by Matthew Drinkwater.

Good morning.

Good morning, Matt. How are you doing?

Yeah, I'm really well, thanks.

Well, thanks for coming on Fashion Made. Got a few things to talk about today. I know you cover a lot of different different technologies, innovations over there, obviously all related to fashion. Um, in terms of the last few years, what have you guys really been focused on?

So we have a really super interesting remit from the college. So my team at London College of Fashion is, um, is dedicated to using emerging technologies to try and change that existing designer business model. So we kind of focus on technologies that could change the way that designers are either making their collections, um, so smart materials, smart processes, change the way that, um, they show their collections. And that's where at London Fashion Week we've been able to experiment with, uh, an interesting range of immersive technologies, from augmented to mixed reality and virtual reality as well. And then ultimately how they end up selling those collections. So, um, that retail end of it and the sort of closing that loop of the complete business model is where we were able to create these case studies around those emerging technologies. And yeah, there was a, an awful lot of hype around wearable technology, uh, 3 or 4 years ago, and we were really interested to see how we could advance that field. Um, over the last couple of years, our work has sort of pivoted much more into immersive technologies as the applications for that technology became a lot more obvious to the industry.

Yeah. Was that a development in consumer hardware that really accelerated that?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it was from the college's perspective, it was us getting hands-on hardware that we could use and begin to build experiences that felt like they had a relevance in the industry. I think, you know, we have a digital learning lab now at the college where we've got everything from HoloLens Vive and Oculus Rift, as well as, as well as some of the lower-end headsets. And we, we can begin to experiment and see what we can develop for the industry, which is, which is super interesting because I think it allows us to begin to question business models and begin to imagine what these technologies could do, not just for that creation part of the journey, but also how could we deploy it within location-based experiences and what ultimately might what might that mean for kind of a new way of fashion retailing as well?

Yeah, that's, it's a great job to have. I mean, lots of, lots of toys to play with, but also with quite a serious end goal as well.

Well, I mean, I think that's where there's been such huge interest in the work that we do is that yes, we do get to have an awful lot of fun and play with some very cool stuff, but ultimately, it's, to have some kind of purpose and impact on the industry. And as soon as you begin to make that link between a, a real-life use case for this technology, people get very excited. Um, and so we've been really fortunate to work with some incredible partners to help us accelerate that process.

Yeah, yeah, I've, I've done a little bit of research. You've worked with, um, Lucasfilm, for instance, was obviously a really big story.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we, we spent a long time working alongside Lucasfilm's immersive entertainment team who are called ILMxLAB. They're formed of a collaboration of the Advanced Development Group at Lucasfilm, ILM, Industrial Light and Magic, and Skywalker Sound. And yeah, we, we spent a good time working on a big experience for London Fashion Week that we showed in February. which was really a new technology called LiveCGX, which is a technology which kind of allows for augmentation in real time. It was an extraordinary experience to develop. We took a venue in central London, part of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and hijacked a London-based designer's fashion week show. Um, Stephen Tai, and we worked really closely with Stephen and created this digital layer, not just to the venue itself, which was extraordinarily beautiful, but created digital outfits for him, which we were able to augment in real time. So this, this, all of these images came together and this experience to kind of challenge the perception and begin to offer a glimpse into the future of what fashion retail experience, location-based experiences could be in the future. It was super fun to do.

I bet. I bet. I mean, I can't imagine what the reaction was. Was it of shock? You know, something so new. Yeah.

I think there was that kind of slack-jawed response, but in a good way. When people walked into the venue and I, Well, I think one of the most magical things about deploying new technologies is that not so much that it's the technology itself, but it's the emotional reaction that it enables. And when you're, when you're able to affect change in people's behavior, that becomes super exciting. And so what we noticed during the presentation was that, you know, people were staying longer because simply the longer that you stayed within the environment, the more that you saw. So over the course of kind of the 2 hours that the presentation was live for, you were able to see Durbar Court within the Foreign and Commonwealth Office be transformed into downtown Macau. And then from downtown Macau, you could see a jungle overgrowing that city. And this was all happening in real time. There's birds flying, butterflies flying around. You were able to witness real-life models engaging with digital models as well. So it was, yeah, a really, really exciting thing to see. And like I said, the audience was mesmerized. And I think when you can begin to showcase that, that technology can increase dwell time, um, allows for designers like Steven much longer with prospective clients, buyers, consumers. I mean, it was no surprise that his sales for that season were considerably higher than in previous seasons. It was something that we can't— well, you can't draw that straight line between the technology and increase in sales, but it certainly seemed to have some kind of impact, which is hugely gratifying.

Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. Again, mixing the art with the business. The two sort of folding into one very nicely there.

And I think that's the thing, because we didn't set out for it to be like a business tool. It was purely an experiment in how could we create something that was extraordinarily beautiful. And by doing that, you have this very positive outcome in terms of a business sense, which feels like the right way to work it.

Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing with all of this emerging technology is it needs to have that end goal ultimately of providing some sort of function as well. I feel like the fashion industry with the use of technology is certainly in that space at the moment where all of this stuff is very nice to have, but it's the must-have technologies that are really going to prevail through and push the industry forward to being maybe more sustainable or getting things done in a better way, whether that's cheaper, faster.

[Speaker:GUY_SPIER] Yeah, I mean, I think all of those are really valid and, you know, quite regularly we get into this conversation about people doing technology for technology's sake, but you know, I, um, I'm one for experimentation because I think without playing with those technologies and beginning to discover what they can do, um, I think it kind of limits what is possible. I think if you start only with the idea that it must have a purpose, it must have a certain outcome, I think it kind of limits where you could go. So Yeah, we, we would want to encourage as much as possible. And yes, all of those things around productivity and sustainability are hugely important to the industry and must be explored. But let's, let's do that with a creative mindset and, and try and encourage as much experimentation with technology as possible.

Yeah, I guess you need to be open because you don't know where it's going to go.

Well, I think that's, that's so vital. And one of the things which we've kind of discovered with a lot of more established retail brands is that there is a genuine fear of new technology, of experimentation, of failure, and these things are perhaps limiting their ability to extend the business, to push it in a new direction. And I think we— if there's one thing that we can do is to kind of inspire that sense of discovery and encourage people just to take a risk and do something where you might not know what the delivery deliverable will be, what the key performance indicator will deliver, what the return on investment might be. Sometimes you just need to do it and kind of see what happens.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I think PVH have developed an internal department now which is basically just pure R&D, going out there and testing all these different things. I think there are a lot of companies who are starting to see this now and realize it.

Yeah, they have. And, you know, I was really thrilled to go and have a chat with the team at PVH in New York recently and see what they were doing. And I think, you know, more and more, and I think it— what that first step of creating an innovation team is, is fantastic. And you want to see that, that mindset spread across the business, across all sectors. So that's It's, it's really encouraging to see so many businesses adopting those sorts of departments. We want to see much more experimentation because I think the industry has to have it, particularly from a retailing side. If, if that innovation isn't embraced, if businesses don't begin to adapt, the world around them is changing at too quick a pace and you'll begin to see more retailers just left behind. I know, I think you've already seen that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have. And you're right, it is end to end, right? I mean, it's not just this sort of design development phases, um, it's completely, um, end to end, as, as you say, sort of every little nodule along the way has to embrace this sort of innovative, um, philosophy.

Because I think when you look across, let's say, a supply chain for fashion, that, you know, A lot of my work has been around immersive technologies, but the kind of data that is being pushed out will have impacts on decision makers all the way across the supply chain. And so for too long, digital has just meant e-commerce for many retailers. And, and yet that impact clearly is going to be from right the way through from manufacturer all the way into the shop floor. Um, Those, those are things that are coming to the industry.

Yeah. Yeah. And I guess if one person along that value chain doesn't embrace it, then it kind of lets the whole side down as well.

Well, completely. I think that's, that's where it becomes so evident that things need to change dramatically. And that will take a long time, but there will be brands who adapt quicker. And I think it will be very obvious to see which ones are being successful.

Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I want to talk about something else that I know that you have been involved with, and that has been Intel's capture studio out in LA, is it?

Well, we haven't been involved. We'd love to be involved if Intel is listening, but I think it's recognition of the changing way that brands are creating content and the opportunities that immersive technologies are bringing. So yeah, but I think the back end of last year, maybe, Intel opened their volumetric video capture studio, which is effectively a 10,000-square-foot dome which is going to capture actors and objects in volumetric 3D, which really is going to allow for the production of high-end holographic content for virtual reality augmented reality, mixed reality. And I think when you see it happening at that scale, um, there has to be recognition that something is happening. Immersive media is going to start to become part of everyday life. Our devices are becoming much more capable of delivering that, our mobile devices, and at some point you are going to start seeing consumer-facing head-worn devices that are going to allow us to consume immersive technology and capture in a, in a much more meaningful way.

How far away do you think this is from the consumer side?

So look, I mean, Magic Leap released their new headset, their developer kit this year in the US, so that's available now. And, you know, very much like the HoloLens, which is still very much focused at a developer end, these devices, I would say, within the next 5 to 10 years are going to get to a point where they become affordable for consumers and in a design-led way that allows consumers to wear them for a considerable amount of time. So yeah, I would imagine within the next decade that's something that we'll start to get used to. Yeah, and I'm going— there was the announcement just yesterday about, um, Apple acquiring, um, uh, an augmented reality company who specialize in the glass for, uh, for devices. So again, there's the likes of Apple who are clearly investing really significant amounts, um, in hardware leading towards a consumer-facing device. So it's coming for sure.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that CAPTUS studio sounds incredible. Naturally, it probably lends itself more to Hollywood than to fashion at the very moment, but I mean, what kind of capabilities do you see it having, or what kind of opportunities do you see fashion having if they were to, you know, get their hands on a studio like that? Yeah. I mean, what would you do? What would you do if you had that studio for 2 weeks?

Yeah, I mean, I think just the idea that we could begin to get photorealistic holographic content, I think immediately there are so many opportunities for you. Imagine being able to capture lifelike holograms and put them into the room that you're standing in currently.

Yeah.

From a really simple use case from a designer, imagine having their new collection in the room with you, but not just in, um, a really simple, uh, website flat packshot image. You could walk around that, you could see up close, you could begin to interact with that. I think that allows for fashion brands to begin to imagine a completely new way of commun— communicating with consumers. Yeah, that, that's really exciting. And then when you could begin to look at— where you begin to challenge people's perceptions of what's real and what's not, then I think creatively we are starting to get into really exciting areas.

Yeah, absolutely.

So it's very early days for that technology, but, um, yeah, what will come in the next few years is super exciting.

Absolutely, because there's a couple of different ways to do holograms. As well. I think there's a couple of companies doing that. And so, again, it's all of these different companies who are advancing those technologies coming together and someone piecing the whole jigsaw all together. Because again, it's this very big expanse of different technology companies, and some of them aren't focused necessarily in fashion and apparel, but the use and the application of that technology in fashion apparel is really exciting.

Um, yeah, I mean, I, I think this is where, um, our work is so valuable. I think it's being able to link different sectors in the economy and begin to find different use cases for technology in a new vertical. A lot of that was sparked by the work that we did when we were at Pinewood Studios and beginning to see some of the, the capture studios that they had there that were predominantly for the film industry and the gaming industries. And that's where, if you're working within augmented and virtual reality, the majority of that skill set lies. And perhaps that, that focus isn't on fashion. And without building that, that link, that discussion point, it's impossible for them to know where that might be applied. So, yes, it's, it's important that there is this kind of bridge capability. And I think that's what— it's a role that we love fulfilling and being able to look different sectors and find use cases for technology, which perhaps at the outset wasn't imagined initially for the fashion industry.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It's very important work. Um, something that I spoke with, um, Amberjai Sluiter and Kerry Murphy, um, a couple of weeks ago on the podcast was about the possibility of having a, um, a virtual catwalk. Um, in front of you and how maybe far away we are from doing this or whether it's been done. And I actually just wanted to ask you, is that something that's been done or that you've seen?

Yeah, I think there have been some examples of creating virtual catwalks and, you know, I think the ability now is to start doing that at a photorealistic level. And I think that's where it becomes particularly exciting, is that the level of detail that we're able to create through 3D now is pushing those boundaries in what we thought was real. There's still a huge amount of work to be done in terms of how we see fabric moving. And animating garments is something that— is still— there's still work to be done, but I think you can begin to get to a really good quality. And I think, yeah, there's plenty of projects we have coming which will move in that direction.

Yeah, I think you're right. And also you get kind of greedy with technology. It's, um, as soon as you see the first virtual render of a piece of clothing, you're like, wow, it's so real. But then you get used to it and suddenly you want more, and you want it more real, more real. You know, it's, um, I mean, it's the same thing with all technology, I guess.

Yeah, it is. And cloth simulation remains hugely complex. You know, the different materials, how they move, how they move on a different body. These are things which are going to take a lot of time and research to get into, um, a point where it is completely realistic. And I think that point where you can completely trick people. It's getting close in terms of what you can render, but being able to do that in real-time would be very exciting. I think those are some of the questions that we were asking when we led the project with Stephen Tai and ILMxLAB. How close can we get in real-time rendering to authentic cloth sim? So there's still work to be done, but it's getting really good. So yeah, virtual catwalks for sure. Possible. And I'm sure there are one or two cases out there that I've seen recently.

I guess that asymmetry is the really hard thing to produce, you know, the irregularities in movement. And so it's, yeah, I think, well, hopefully it comes soon because again, that's something that will probably help other areas develop as well.

Yeah, absolutely. I think when you can— just imagine consumer-facing, it would completely change what people believe. If you could capture your own body, if you could virtually try on products and see yourself walking in that and see how it looks.

Well, that's something amazing. And so that's also kind of where I wanted to go with this, is the consumer end of this. Because let's say in Westfield, they start getting motion capture Booths you can go in and get a full render, full virtual avatar of yourself walking around and suddenly upload this and basically scroll through your whichever online shop you like to go to. Yeah. And see yourself walking around in all the clothes. I mean, it's just gonna blow the whole, whole market open, really.

Yeah, I mean, I see there's lots of people looking at scanning and how best to capture the body and some really interesting examples out there already. So Zozotown in Japan.

I've just ordered that suit.

The Zozo suit.

Yeah, they just told me I was one of the 100,000 winners, so I'm going to get that suit in a week or two, apparently. So yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

I'm looking forward to that image. Make sure that is on social media. Yeah, I will. I'm going to have to, aren't I? Yeah, one of my friends in Japan has the suit as well. And, you know, that's one way of capturing. And it can very accurately capture the measurements of your body. But I think again, there's that question around fit and what fit means, because just having very accurate body measurements doesn't necessarily mean that how a product feels on you is going to fit. Feel right. And these are some of the hugely complex things when it comes to fit and how product sits on you that the industry is going to have to get through, because different material feels differently to each and every one of us. And, um, uh, yeah, it was—

you say, yeah, what feels good as well changes.

Absolutely.

You know, yeah, you can't then define tapered, slim, you know, it's then the same old broad parameters that actually don't necessarily mean anything specific to a consumer.

Yeah. So there's, there's work to be done, but, and I think Amazon have been looking at capturing 3D scans from a kind of magic mirror experience. So you could imagine having your wardrobe mirror scanning you and then obviously having Amazon's catalog of clothing and virtually trying that on. Yeah, there are lots of applications where you can see that technology being applied and directly coming into your home and changing the way that we consume fashion in the future. And it's, it's inevitable that it, it will come. Um, yeah, I think you can see from just looking at how mobile devices and Depth sensing and facial tracking have improved so dramatically just from a mobile device that anything within a static location is going to provide you with an even higher quality scan.

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, it's exciting times.

Yeah, it's, it's really going to change how we imagine what future fashion could be in the future. Yeah.

So what is it in the immediate future for you, Matthew?

Well, I think a continuation of the work that we've been doing. I think a lot of the themes that we've discussed today will— you'll see come to life in projects over the next few months. And I think we want to begin to show that pathway to what virtual fashion could be. I think one of the things which inspired us so massively when we were doing the Lucasfilm ILMxLAB project was that we were able to kind of change the way that people felt about themselves through wearing virtual fashion. And we— the motion capture performer who was driving the real-time avatars on stage during Fashion Week had not seen herself wearing the designer's collection. And when she saw the first image of that, she immediately changed her posture. And it was kind of— we've always known that what you wear changes how you feel. When you put on a nice new shirt, you kind of stand stand upright. It's— that's a very clear definition about putting something on can change how you feel. But we did that virtually.

Yeah.

And we're just at the very beginning of doing something extraordinary. And I think we imagine that as more and more time is spent within virtual and augmented reality, there has to be some kind of virtual and augmented fashion. So we're going to spend a bit of time trying to work in that direction and create some experiences which can demonstrate that.

Yeah, well, it sounds like you're bridging the gap between what is real and what is not, you know, this is— you could sort of provide some of this stuff to sort of philosophical research as well, you know, because this is super psychological. You're not actually doing anything physical, but it still changes your posture. And so, yeah, I find it— I find that kind of side of things really fascinating as well.

It is. It's amazing. I think when you, you look at what's happening in social media and the way that people project themselves now, if you could just scroll through Instagram and people are already taking photographs and adding a filter on, you know, what, what is real now? And the way that people portray themselves now. I think it, as those tools become available to consumers to begin to project themselves digitally in a different way, people are going to adopt it because they're already doing it.

Yeah, incredible stuff. Well, I can't wait to see what happens over the next few months. I mean, it's just, you have a really cool job.

Thank you. We have a lot of fun. And, you know, we are excited at what's to come. And yeah, there's, what can I say? Stay tuned.

Yeah, we will do. All right. Well, thanks, Matthew. I really appreciate you coming on the show.

My pleasure. Great to speak to you.

Everybody get up.