Panel: Overcoming Fashion Industry Challenges | Vizoo, Triple Tree, KM.ON, DMIx, SAIZ | PI Apparel

Hello, thank you everybody for coming. My name is Martin. Welcome to the panel Overcoming Fashion Industry Challenges. And as you see here on the left-hand side, we have a set of elected experts from the vendor side, from the industry, and we have a set of prepared questions. But during this panel, we really want to highlight you guys and your questions. So really feel free to ask the difficult, candid, complicated questions, post your problems, post the challenges, and really feel free to like challenge the team here because they're up for it to answer everything. So we have Asfa, Asfa Hasan. He's the founder of TripleTree. He has experience in connecting big brands with their suppliers. And through this, he learned about important problems and opportunities leading to clever tech solutions that save money while expediting time to market. Next to him, we have Svenja. Svenja is the co-founder and CTO at ZEISS. ZEISS helps brands systematically optimize sizing and fit from product development to sales. She has a background in data science. Math and AI, studied at LSE in Denmark and the US and worked in econometrics and supply chain laws for the UN, EU Commission, and the German government. So if you have any tough regulatory or mathematical question, that's on the left-hand side. Then we have Ulfhild. Ulfhild is the cluster leader for design and patterning products at KMON, which is a part of the Carl Mayer Group. They have design softwares for the flat knit machines and warp knit machines where the customers can also send their designs to 3D digital product creation tools, as well as with additional software design projects that can be sent to machines for productions. And last but not least, we have Gerd. Gerd Wilschütz is the CEO, a COO and managing director at DMX by Color Digital, and he's bridging the digital and physical space to enhance collaboration between brands and the supply chains, focusing on color, materials, data, and high-end. And avatars. So after the introduction, we're going to jump to the very first topic. And I think this— I think I joined my first Apero PI in 2014 or 2015, and that topic was already there. Like, it feels like we're reiterating digital transformation on and on. Like, it's a very recurring topic. And the question for me is, why isn't it really taking off? Like, what's really— what's stopping it? From scaling, from being embraced, and from, yeah, letting us go to the next step. So that would be my first question to the expert round. Who wants to take that on?

Yeah, I think it's a very valid question, and I keep asking it myself on a daily basis since, I don't know, 2006. But Yeah, I think it's, uh, textile people and the fashion industry tend to stick to what they did, and it takes a lot of trust, and it takes some bigger steps to overcome all the habits that we have. And I think sometimes maybe We feel that it's not really necessary because it also works the old way. Because I mean, I think with everybody here on stage, I mean, some of the things we do in our daily routine are— sorry for the drastic words— but they are plain stupid, right? There are some things that we could overcome with some of the technology that we all here are providing and probably you in the room are already using. But it's complicated. I don't really have an answer why it is so complicated. And I mean, Martine, you are at the forefront of this, so maybe you can answer it.

But yeah, actually, I have a little bit of a hypothesis because I think it like, yes, we have been talking about it, I think, for a very long time in the industry. But I do think it's also become a little bit accelerated in the last couple of years. And I think we got away with not doing it because it was all right. We still— everyone still made enough money even without digitizing. Even like margins were fine enough. And I think slowly but surely, I think the players that aren't as digitized can feel it. We can feel the people or the brands, especially a couple of really, really large ones that do a lot of data, that do a lot of digitized processes, are growing a lot faster. We see some others going out of the market that aren't using anything digital. So my hypothesis is actually that we got away with it because times were good. Margins were all right. And I think that's shifting a little bit. And I think it's our responsibility as a little bit as vendors, as software solutions, right? I think sometimes we have very ambitious innovation goals for an industry that has certain, as you said, right? Like there are certain ways that it has always been done a certain way. So I think we need to make sure it's easily integrated. And seamlessly fits into processes that are already there, right? I think sometimes some solutions or some really, really cool tech that could potentially be used is such a jump or has been such a jump. There's also a lot of cool solutions that aren't that big of a jump and do a lot of impact, right? Which I think those you can see also the application is a lot more common and they are happening, right? So those would be my— I think that's my hypothesis, my two variables.

Yeah, I just want to chime in. So, so one of the problems we see is that we don't collectively look at the business more holistically, which is like, uh, you got the supply chain side as well. And most of the solutions we talk about when we talk about product development, we're also looking at, you know, warehouse to retail and consumer, but the spending on the other side is very low, which is the, you know, how do you take your suppliers along? And I've seen people roll out solutions without that consideration, without, you know, like spending the time or energy to create the awareness on the supply chain side and also to see the culture change, you know, to take them along. A lot of the suppliers say, what's our benefit in it? And we got to cover that angle as well. And that's what a good fit means, that Everybody wins. So that's slowed it down. And I think a big part of it also the legacy systems, they exist. So there's resistance to let go of those systems as well. People are just used to working a certain way. They don't want to let go.

I might add my experience is more like we have so much tools already. I think that's the biggest challenge, how to make the most out of these tools and combine these different solutions. Because I've realized also today, and that was one of the reasons I picked up that topic in the roundtable, was from concept to consumer and how to streamline the workflows. And you could see there was quite a lot of attendance from different backgrounds because we have so much tools, but with different intentions and different, you know, logic behind and different systems. How to connect these systems together, I think, is one of the biggest challenges because customers want one solution sometimes from one software and asking, do you also have this, have that? And in the end, you are specifically working in one area and you might need some other expertise, which you might need to collaborate with different companies, with different platforms to solve this challenging expectations, would be my takeout. Also seeing a lot of the discussions during this event.

Maybe also to, uh, just for the record, on Svenja, your point, there also have been companies who've been doing really badly and went out of business who seem to embrace digital transformation. Um, but I think it's also always important to like not do 3D for the sake of doing 3D and like get like too like tied in with this like ideology, we need to do this, and to also like take a step back again and really focus on why are we doing it, what is saving us, what is saving us in like 2 years. Because I feel like always the discussion has been like in the far future it will like, like work, but I think it needs to also be more tangible. Um, are there any questions so far to the audience? Ah, wow, okay. Um, yeah, let's start with question number 1. What is the biggest wish list about the vendor partnership ecosystem? Not everybody. Not everybody.

Well, I wish that there could be more transparency in the partnership where we could work truly hand to hand in coming up with the solutions. Every situation and customer that we work with is unique, and I think that We have to rise to that occasion and provide, you know, a glove that fits. And that means spending the effort, not just giving a cookie-cutter solution that we expect to work everywhere. And that's part of the reason, like, some of the solutions fail as well.

I think also it's quite important that Technology shouldn't be your enemy, and you shouldn't see it as your enemy, right? So, and I think it's important for us to provide solutions that assist you and that give you the results you need, which we of course are trying to do as good as we can. And there are still limits, especially in 3D and especially in some ideas of where we want to take this. I mean, the latest developments in AI are opening just completely new horizon. But yeah, take a first step. I mean, that's something on the wish list always.

I hope that answers the question. Going to question number 2, how do your companies balance working together and competing for business, for example, DMX and Visu? Good question. Maybe I can also add my—

It's an easy answer, right? I mean, so Visu always has been open with formats and we support their formats and that's that, right? So I mean, take your Visu scanner, take the stuff that is coming out of xTex, you can upload it into our library and you can work with it. Simple as that.

And I think somehow have to collaborate to some degree to really make like the whole ecosystem make sense in the first place. And also to, I mean, there will always be competitors to some degree. Otherwise, if you don't have a competitor, you probably don't have a good product. But there's not only like, it's not 100% overlap. There's also, for example, going back to that example, clients that use Visu and DMX, for example. So yeah, we work together. The industry is small. We have to work together because it just makes, makes sense in like a complete process stage.

Actually, I might add, it was coincidentally we were in the same panel today. We already have some collaborations and discussions with DMIX because sometimes, you know, there's a certain limit of expertise in your expertise with your own product. and you need some guidance from experts in different areas. For example, in our case, we are, we have solutions for flatknit, we're flatknit experts, but at a certain level we might need some help with the simulations, or with our database when it comes to color management, yarn management. You can't be experts in everything. That brings me to the beginning where you need to calibrate, and it might even take it Further, in the traditional times when with product development, you remember we had, for example, SEDEX, where all the audits were all together. So at one point we decide we have platforms. I think that's also necessary with digital product creation that we work very closely. And as you said, it's a small, yeah, industry in the end. Many people we already know, we have to work very together. That's also down to sustainability so we don't duplicate the efforts maybe. Would be, I think, the future, in my opinion.

How can we solve the challenge that the digital color and scanned fabrics always look different to the color of the physical sample? But how do you solve that today with e-com photography? That's the same challenge, I guess. But I want to throw that to the panelists.

Yeah, I mean, that's a big challenge. I mean, thank you for this question because we're already living it every day, and we've had recent instances where Um, yeah, obviously the color management is quite difficult, especially when you work starting with yarns. So the solution is really to have good scanning and look at scanning options. And in our software, for example, sometimes the white background makes a difference to the black background. And because the whole process starts with yarn, which you're right Yarn scanning is very, very important, so high resolution, um, and ideally, and maybe a good scanner before you even take it further, because yarn scanning has a big impact on the, the colors. And even if you put like RGB values, still the color might be off. To be very honest and transparent, there's not, uh, we're not 100% sold it, at least in our product, I can say, but we're constantly working on it. And then, of course, we work with platforms where they're already like Pantone colors or market standards are already shared in the platforms. I hope that answers the question.

I think color is a topic where we can probably also spend 2 hours talking about it, but the question is how deep you want to dive into it right now.

I think there is a good hint in the answer itself, and this is physical physics, right? Color is based on physics, and we should treat it as physics, and we are often treating it as what we experience in our heads, and that is a feeling, that is something that is totally subjective, and if we manage to treat color on a physical side, you can do a lot. And I know that a lot of people in the industry are telling me, ah, you know, we can't do this, and color measurement, no, it doesn't really work. The soon your sample is reaching a dye house, the first thing they do is they digitize it, and they use the value of the digitalization in order to go into production. So, you know, it's just not true. That's the first step into looking into color. And of course, it's complex, and even with scanning, and if we are on certain different machines and devices, things are complex. There's no doubt about this, but it's solvable. You just need to stick to a workflow. If you don't do that, it'll never work. Promise.

Perfect. I think that answers the question. Um, the next one is interesting because I think that also came up since my first PI. Uh, what are the strategies to convince users to join the digital journey? And I think that's a problem everybody is having who's trying to implement 3D, or really, I mean, it's not even about 3D, about any digital tool.

Yeah, I can quick start maybe. I think it's impact. No, like at the end of the day, it has to have a direct business impact, and that's how you get people to sign on to the journey and really make it a bit more urgent when you have a direct impact that you can prove after a while. And this is again, not just in digital or 3D garment making, but just in all types of digital transformation. I think it has to have a direct business impact, and then it makes it a lot easier to get teams on board, to get C-level on board. Everyone's happier to work on a digital product project.

I just want to add that maybe like smaller bites. So you start with a pilot, which is limited to, you know, a smaller segment and you build on that success. Also, it should grow organically rather than, you know, like taking the whole thing. I think That is a key reason why some of the solutions succeed because it just seems simpler in the beginning where people don't get overwhelmed or scared of the magnitude of the solution. And the possibilities are huge, but as you go along, you also work with the vendor to say that this works for me, this doesn't, and you adjust those things to the way people actually work, and then that solution starts to fit. And that's the start of the journey. Once you start on it, like any journey, it just continues and it just helps you with, you know, better performance in all aspects of the business. With the coming of AI, you know, all kinds of new opportunities have opened up. But I think that also has to be a dialogue because the datasets themselves, the data points have to be clean. They have to be reliable. As we know from history, so that the AI is actually contributing in a positive way, not just throwing out garbage.

We haven't had an AI question yet, so that's— also feel free. Wilfried, so the next one I believe is to you, because it says to Wilfried. We measured the knits we made with the Shima full garment knit, the woven systems, CloKit, and Fabric Analyzer by Browzwear, but it reacts differently. We measured the knits we made with a Shima full garment knit, and I believe they also measured it with the CloKit and the fabric analyzer, but it like behaves differently, I guess, between the different systems.

Yeah, I mean, obviously I'm not the expert with Shima software, I have to say. I mean, our software is, um, store-related. Obviously I have some information about— because they're competitors to us. Yeah, this directly for Shima I can answer, but obviously we, with our software at least, I can say we do digital twins. And referring back to the previous question as well, for sure we create the flatnets and then I think part of the question was referring to Browserware. Was it?

I was—

yeah, yeah.

I think also some of the, um, not confusion is basically from the— at the end of the day, like, these are different systems. Like, they don't all behave the same. We had the same, uh, like, we converted between, uh, Browserware and QLO. Um, and even if you measure everything, it's still not gonna look the same if you use like different tools.

What I, I can add is though, for example, of course, when— like, is again, I can give the example from our software solution, because we create the knitdowns in the design in actual knitting actions. So obviously you have— you see the fashioning in our software, and when you zoom it in and out, because our by default it's, you know, single jersey, and then of course we put some structure, and when you convert it, um, or export it into 3D, of course the edges look like jagged. I don't want it to be too technical, but of course this is a different software, as you mentioned. That's why with 3D softwares we have plugins and collaborations to have this, um, seamless connection. That's one of the, again, challenges we discussed in the beginning, because there are two different solutions with two different intentions. Which started with 2D solutions. So when you want to implement knitwear, which is a completely complicated product, of course we have issues. Because otherwise, if you, you know, if you try to stitch it as is, you will have holes. I mean, all these challenges we need to sort out. That's why we need, you know, experts to work on the 2 softwares and integrate them to one software to be able to solve our clients' requests when it comes to seamless workflow. I hope, you know, that answers the question.

If it doesn't, please feel free to come up to her after the final discussion.

Now you have my name, I would try to help.

Um, the next question is, which DNA a solution provider should have to be a relevant partner for the market? I'm not sure I 100% understand the question. Maybe it's different for you. I'm not sure if it's about that they should be trustworthy, but do you have a take on that? Or maybe the question answerer can elaborate.

Yeah, I think like you need like a vendor to have an overall perspective of what success means here in this situation. And I can tell you that in my case, we're looking keenly into the bottom line, which is, can we help reduce lead time or time to market in some ways that can— that is an essential element of the business, and also bring transparency in the relationship. So The product has to talk more freely and openly so that communication improves between the various partners in the supply chain and the brand and internally in the teams as well. So the information is accurate and dependable that people can base decisions off of. And that's empathy from the vendor side is important because then they're listening keenly and providing that assistance to mold their solutions to help the brand or the retailer.

And I think what also is important, I mean, we are textile people, we are fashion people, and we are not purely digital. We are still producing. So I think what also should always be part of a tech company and a software company is that there should be people who understand the business. And who have lived the business and who have seen the challenges. I think that's also very important. And I can tell from our side, we have a lot of textile engineers who are doing the implementation side and who are also the product owners. And I think that's a good step forward to create something that actually meets the expectation and needs.

Yeah, perfect. Um, the next one is interesting. Time for some candid talk. What do you think the fashion brands need to do, or you, you need from them to live digital transformation and not just talk about it? So basically now the stage is open for you guys to explicitly tell, um, the fashion brands for what you need in order to help them actually do digital transformation? And before you answer, I think everybody here on the panel, just invite them to your office for a day and actually go through that scenario in detail. Discuss, hey, how could we have a complete digital transformation for all our business? What do you need from us? What do we need to do? I think everybody here would be super open to accept that invitation. No, sorry.

Yeah, absolutely. I think I just have a short answer. But I think sometimes it's you don't use tech to do a digital transformation. You use tech to solve a problem. So I think just being clear about the biggest problem and what you need and what the desired outcome is. And I'm sure there are tools out there, or at least a lot of solutions that would also love to go deeper maybe for a couple features or whatever it might be that could solve the problem even deeper. So I think being— just knowing your problems, and I'm sure tech can solve them.

I can talk about this topic for hours, actually. I think you should just lead by example and you really use it. I would just say, please use it. And maybe 80/20 rule, you know, you have still your NOSs maybe with just color differences or little changes. You can use digital tools more. and the 20 rule where your styles are complicated. And, um, we— I mean, in my experience, to also support the buying teams and designer teams who wants to touch, and at the end of the day I can understand there's pressure about making the right decisions that the product is sellable, um, to do some examples of digital twins is important. Then you can just show, um, what the outcome from the 3D tools and then the actual garment a few examples to show how comparable, how realistic it is to really, you know, engage. And I think product development teams has a big role to play there, to convince and to support buying and design teams. At least that's how I experienced it. I mean, still, even, you know, I was thinking myself, comes to fit, Svenja would of course have maybe things to add. Fitting is still not that easy, maybe, to, yeah, do particularly with ladieswear, complicated products. But still there is possibilities, you know. I've managed to use, in my experience, 3D tools before rendering, even for fit purposes. You know, if you have the intention, there are possibilities. Not 100%, your all collections you can do by 3D, but there is again as 80/20 rule to reduce the number of samples, to reduce the number of waste for the environment. Is still possible. I think you just need to be a bit, yeah, dedicated to that mission and pragmatic and need a very good change management system to actually implement it.

Unfortunately, we're already out of time to answer all the other questions. It's fantastic that everybody posts so many questions. Everybody will be here today for drinks and also for tomorrow, so just feel free to address the panelists, yeah, during the day. And also big thanks for all the nice answers.