Regenerating Textiles With Infinited Fiber (Petri Alava) | Fashion Made Podcast

Hi everyone, hope you're well. Welcome to this week's episode of Fashion Made, really interesting one. I'm speaking to Petri Alava, who is the CEO and co-founder over at Infinitid Fiber, company I had not heard of before. Don't know if I've had my head in the sand for the last few years, it's very possible. I know we have had some other things going on in the last year or industry, but I'm really, really excited about this. I think it could be a real game changer for the industry. So let's get straight into it. Here's the conversation I had with Petri Oliver and enjoy. Petri, hi, it's David. Really nice to speak to you. Welcome to the show.

Thank you, David. Very nice to join.

Yeah, it's brilliant to have you guys on. I was amazed that I hadn't heard of Infinitive Fibre before, considering the incredible potential of this technology. It seems absolutely vast and could potentially change the future of the fashion industry.

Yes, no wonder. We are still an early-stage company. The company was founded in 2016, and as I said, the products are not yet commercially available on the shop floor, so I mean in the brick and mortar. So that's why you probably haven't heard about it. But of course, the fashion industry has heard about it and we're very happy to work with them.

Absolutely. Petri, tell me a little bit more about it. How does this technology work, sort of from an overview level?

Right. So the— of course, as I mentioned, that we are really a technology company and what our technology enables is that we take in old textiles, for example, We clean the history, we break down the old textiles on a polymer level, meaning that we are really forgetting the whole history of the material. We are taking away the dyes, we are taking all the kind of chemical treatments what are typically made for textiles. And once we have made a kind of clear and pure polymers, then we are regenerating, recreating a new fiber out of the materials. And what's, what's important in there is, is that the, the fiber is— it's not really recycled. The waste is a feedstock for us, raw material for us, but the fiber is brand new. So the consumer doesn't need to be making any compromise at all. So the, the, the fibers as such, or the material, can be created into, into denim or jeans or the t-shirts or sweaters, bed linens, so that the, the consumer really doesn't notice whether it's made from, from virgin cotton or whether it's made from, from our thinner fiber. And that's really the essence of the whole thing, that it's easy for the consumer. They don't notice any difference. So they don't need to make compromises. I think the kind of one of our traditional problems with recycling is that consumers are quite often feeling compromises. So the material doesn't feel quite comfortable, or it doesn't look like what they'd really like to do. And that's the strength of the whole thing. That it can be really made an everyday solution for the people. It's so easy and it's also truly sustainable.

Yeah, I mean, does this— obviously we have a slight problem with consumerism at the moment and overconsumption, you know, should I really say, you know, consumerism might be okay in some people's book, but certainly overconsumption is a problem. Do you feel that this is something, a solution that can solve that problem?

Of course, our technology doesn't solve what people are buying as such. You say, isn't that the whole sense of clothing today, is that people want to express themselves? You are building part of your identity through the clothing you are wearing. So whether people are buying consciously, we probably can't impact that much. Of course, we can make the material sustainable. So that's our role in the whole value chain. Of course, we would like people to kind of really care for what they buy, how much they buy. But that's not what we can do. What we can really make is that we have a solution both for the beginning of the value chain, because with our technology, you avoid using virgin raw materials. As for example, technology can, it cannot only use textile waste, we can also use cardboard waste, paper waste, agricultural residues like say rice straws or corn straws. And when we discuss about virgin raw materials, say I'd rather see farmlands used to grow food for people instead of growing cotton because we cannot, we can make exactly the same like fiber because our fiber looks and feels like cotton. It's natural and soft like cotton. And we can make that from the kind of end-of-life cycle things. Really from the clothes which has been thrown into garbage, which you can't repair anymore. Or then like the cornstrows or rice straws. So we can take something out from the landfills or incineration which is just causing, say, methane or some other CO2 releases. And by doing that, also avoid using the virgin raw materials. But then we can't really change what the consumers are buying. Of course, it's a journey for people and it's a journey for industry. I think the problem what the consumers have is that there are so many kind of blurred messages. Somebody may maybe call it greenwashing. So How consumers really know what is sustainable. So everybody is talking about recycled content. I think that that's the problem for the industry and that's a problem for the people. They really don't know what's sustainable and they are getting confused. I think our job and our vision is that we would bring back the joy to the people so that you don't need to be feeling anymore confused what you are buying. So that when you buy a clothing, nice piece of clothing made of our fibers, you are sure that it's a sustainable solution.

People do find themselves confused as consumers. People want to try and be good, but also they are affected by price. Ultimately, we are affected by that sometimes when we're trying to buy new clothes and sometimes the cheaper option, if you if you can't see a tangible benefit outside of that, is the best option. That brings me on to the point of how expensive is it to do this? Is it— will it make sense from a consumer standpoint in their, in their back pocket at the end of the day?

It's, it's of course a very good question, David. Say the The challenge always you have with the new technologies is that, say, in the beginning it's like electric cars. So in the beginning it's obviously more expensive as you haven't got to— haven't reached the level yet or the volume. Because it's in industrial production, it's always a ratio between volume you produce and the costs you are getting from the production. So the In the beginning, it will be more expensive. So my guess is that in the beginning, we might be spending about, say, 20-30% more expensive clothing. But I'm sure that that's when we are reaching the volume, that the garments will be, say, at least on the same level than the kind of clothing made from virgin raw materials. So I'm not really worried about the cost elements. Our vision is that the Sustainable fashion has to be made a viable solution for everyone, affordable for everyone, because that's how we can change the planet. I really value what you say, that at the end of the day, it really matters that there's no kind of price premium on the longer term. That's how every people gets the choice and has the choice available.

All right, Petri, I want to know also, how did this all start? You know, we've gone back and forth sort of setting this interview up, but just so everyone else can know, how did this start? How did you drive this idea forward? Was it just yourself? Were you part of a bigger team that sort of drove the whole idea? Tell us a little bit about that.

Right. So that's in a way part of a relatively long history. Unfortunately, sometimes it's, it's, it's taking a very, very long time to develop these kind of new technologies. The origin of our technology is in the 1930s in the US. So quite a, quite a long time ago, 90 years ago. And kind of surprisingly, at that time there were several technologies developed and only now these technologies start to be coming to the markets. The history of this technology route started then in early 1990s in Finland when a state-owned applied technology research center started researching technology. And the kind of revolutionary invention was made in early 2010 when the research team figured out that they could be using actual waste-based materials on producing high-quality textile fibers. Then of course, it's not natural for a research center to make something commercial, and they were— they started looking at alternatives, how to commercialize the technology. And I heard from the market from this incredible innovation 2015. At the time, I was making a career as a corporate CEO in a global biomaterials business. And at the same time, I was working in the board positions in the waste management industry. So I had quite a bit of background on understanding what's the magnitude of the problems on the landfills. And then also in my biomaterials business, I was very heavily trying to push through the circular ideas into the research and our R&D. People, but at that time, still, let's say between 2005, 2015, it was far too early. So the retailers said, wow, yeah, interesting. But say, if it's cheaper, then we might try. But say, it wasn't really the right time. And then when I heard about this innovation and I got to learn Ali Harleen, who's my business partner, a really wonderful personality, a research professor on biomaterials, I thought first, OK, OK, hey, there's a man who can really solve those problems because he's not only a researcher, but a kind of interesting personality, as he says, a solution creator. So he doesn't see the problems, but he sees the solution. So I thought, okay, we could be an excellent team. And then the last problem was to figure out, is this the right time? And the research organization has done an excellent job on getting connections with the industry. So we kind of got an excellent start and got the discussions with the management of top management of H&Ms and IKEAs and Wranglers. And what really caught my attention was that they were really ready for change. So they were really eager for solutions. So I thought, hey, this could be a winning solution. That there's a man who has the technology capability, can solve the problem, sees the solutions rather than problems. I had a kind of very, very long background in global industry building industrial growth companies. And then the customers, the brands who wanted to change. So I was like, hey, this could be a killing combination. And then of course, I made one mistake in the beginning. I thought, OK, hey, with my history, it's easy to get the money to build up this kind of company. And it was taking 2 and a half years just to walk around the whole world. I think I was seeing more than 150 investors. Trying to get the money just to build a pilot factory because the technology is nothing without the capability of producing something. But then at the end of the day, I just found out the like-minded people and the rest is history. So the kind of real Crowdstates started in somewhere early 2018 when I recruited the first person to the company. Now we have 27. And at the end of this year, we should be having close to 50 people.

Wow.

Now it's going fast, but the beginning was challenging, I have to say.

Well, it's a potential massive rolling stone, you know, so to try and get that going at the beginning is always going to be hard, I guess.

It is so true.

Yeah. So you mentioned some of the other companies that you've been working with. Can you, can you mention a little bit more about some of the sort of case studies, shall we say, from, from people that some of the large companies that we might know?

Yeah, so as most of our customers, or all of our customers, are stock-listed multinational textile giants, unfortunately we can only refer to the ones who have given the permission to use their names. H&M has been one of the first ones we've been always working with. That cooperation started already in the beginning of 2016, and just recently, in the beginning of this year, they were bringing the first products, capsule collection to the market. I think it was women jeans under the brand Weekday. And that was a really great success. So it was selling out in a few hours. So that was really great experiment with that. Then there are other companies coming to the markets. But as I said, that unfortunately they are stock listed companies. So we can't speak for them. But to my understanding, there's something coming out in May this year. And the next collection should be coming out, say, later this year, somewhere September, October. And the brands who have been willing to kind of, uh, endorse us, uh, are Tommy Hilfiger, or the company behind is PVH, which owns the brands like Calvin Klein, Tommy Hilfiger. Then we have H&M. Then there's Bestseller, which is kind of a more European brand, Northern European brand, uh, owning brands like, um, Only, um, uh, Jack Jones, etc. Then we have also, uh, working with Wrangler, which is US-based a US-based jeans company, made jeans company. And then there's also a non-wovens company called Suomenent. It's more like a manufacturer, but producing the wet wipes and diaper materials for brands like Procter Gamble.

Okay. All right. So yeah, real applications outside of the fashion industry as well.

That is true. Yes, absolutely. The, the, the, the industry is so wanting to and so willing to go fast to the markets The kind of remaining problem is just how to find the money needed for industrial investments. Because at the end of the day, to really scale up this innovation, we need also industrial investments to build the kind of industrial capability of producing the fibers, the fiber factories.

How many factories have you got at the moment?

We have two pilot factories. And as we do speak, from our core, we are really a technology company. So we are looking at licensing customers, particularly in Asian markets. And then we're also looking at that possibilities, evaluating possibilities on building industrial-scale production in Europe.

I want to come on to the growth of the technology, sort of where can it go? And as you say, you're bringing in more factories now as well. You know, ideally, I guess you would have hundreds, maybe thousands of factories all over the world. And this is the predominant textile resource for everyone to sort of source from. Is that your grand vision of this?

Absolutely. As I said, that we really would like to bring this technology or this fiber a mainstream solution so that each and every consumer, every people would get access to it and it would be really affordable for them to use. I think it really needs at least 3 things to happen. Of course, it needs demand. So I believe personally that the demand and the supply are kind of growing hand in hand. So today, say, if you go to the shop, it's very difficult to find sustainable solutions. You don't know what's sustainable. So in respect to that, the industry needs to bring in— or the fashion brands need to bring in a really nice-looking and comfortable piece of clothing so that the people can start buying it. That's the one thing. Then secondly, of course, it also needs the infrastructure to collect the waste. I'm not that concerned about, say, cardboard waste, paper waste, because that collection system is well functioning globally. And the kind of opportunity what we have on that side is that the growing online sales is really creating much more cardboard waste than we are able to consume or can use as a recycled material. So that's one way of getting the waste. Then on the textile waste, we really need to find also infrastructure to collect the waste. I think there the people are having, let's say, misbeliefs. Many people you speak with are believing that the charity organizations are collecting the most of the waste and the collection rates are high. But that's not true. for example, in Europe, the collection rate is less than 20%. So 80% goes to the landfills or incineration, and less than 20% is recycled. And the sad story is that only 1% is recycled back to new clothing. The rest goes to either low-value products, or then is being exported to Africa or some other undeveloped countries. And then third, The scaling really needs also the industrial production investment. And that's what we are working on. We are looking at the industrial producers who are today producing alternative fibers or some other fiber types. And then we're also looking at, say, project development partners like Asian Development Bank who could be funding this sort of investment in Asian markets. Because at the end of the day, Asia is the production hub. That's where the textiles are still made. And I believe that that that's also the future.

What about unsold clothing? You know, there's, as far as I understand, there are huge swathes of clothing that remains unsold, that sits in factories, that sometimes can just go straight to landfill or straight to incineration as well. Are there opportunities to take some of that? Because it seems there are such huge wasteful— there's such huge wastefulness within the fashion industry, not only on the consumer side, but also on the manufacturer's side and on the brand side. I think we all have our part to play. Certainly, there might be schemes where you could encourage consumers to donate more if they felt that it was going to a good cause. I think more people are doing textile recycling now, you know, but I try and tell my wife to do it, for instance, you know, where she might throw a pair of clothes away. And I think I'd say, no, no, no, we have to take this to the special spot. Consumers aside, there are these huge other swathes of places where there are, you know, just garments just sitting in factories, just unsold.

I think there are two issues. One is that the industry, the textile brands, are definitely also looking at so-called nearshoring. Meaning that they are looking at ways to bring back the production of textiles closer to the markets. And there is a growing trend now that the leading brands are also bringing back some of the production first back to Europe or back to US. Because the shorter the supply chain is, the less inventories you need. Because at the end of the day, isn't that when you have a spring season, for some, it's only one month when the people want to be buying the garments. And the industry needs to be having the availability of the products in the shop. So the one way to decrease the number of inventories or volume of inventories is really bringing back the production close to the markets. And that's what we also kind of supporting as discussed that we are looking at now ways to start commercial-scale fiber production in Europe, which would be then supplying the materials to the European textile for the users. Because today there is very little textile production, or I'll say there's very little fiber production in Europe. There's literally only two little factories in Europe who are today making fibers in Europe, and there's no cotton production, for example, in Europe. So that's the way we can impact on that, making it really attractive. And of course, it would be kind of local fiber production because the waste is collected from Europe and we would be turning it to the new fibers in Europe. The second thing what we are doing with the brands is that of course they are highly interested in looking at their, their deadstock or unsold inventories, and we are looking at cooperating so that at the same time when they are buying the fiber from, from us, they would be also supplying us the raw material. So instead of incinerating or burning the, the unsold garments, they are looking the ways to, to give it to us and we would be using that as a feedstock. When you discuss that more people are collecting the waste, it is definitely true, the people are getting more conscious, but it also needs some support from governments. Historically, people are a bit lazy. It's nice to hear that you are very conscious and your wife is conscious, but unfortunately not all the people are doing that. What is really nice in Europe is that the EU is a front-runner. It's really showing and leading the way globally. And they are, for example, forcing that by 2025 all the EU member states have to be organizing a separate textile waste collection system. And of course, what that will be creating, it will definitely increase the availability of the waste. And always historically, when that has happened, there has been new innovations created just to solve the problem. The collection is just one piece of the solution, but at the end of the day, then you need innovations, technologies, how to utilize the waste. And the other thing, what that is, it's also causing that it will also decreasing the cost of the waste. So it will just, let's say, decreasing barrier for new innovations to come to the markets. And at the same time also increasing the cost of the traditional way of making things. Because isn't that in a way, somehow we should be paying the bill of creating waste? There's no society of taking the waste, taking care of the waste problem so that in a way we also need to be part of the solution as a people, as consumers.

It sounds like a really almost utopia. You know, this idea that the governments are going to enable us all to be better human beings and your technology is also enabling that as as well. I for one hope that we can get there because it sounds like a fantastic place to get to. And I think you touch on how important a role governments do have in this whole system.

Exactly. But is it that what brings hope is, is also kind of remembering history? Because it's only 1930s when we, we started forgetting the, the circularity. You see, until 1930s, the whole world was circular. Because the basic materials were expensive. So everything was recycled. Say, for example, our old opera house in Helsinki, that was built from older flooring materials imported from Stockholm, and the bricks were old. So the whole life was circular. But then in the 1930s, what happened? Somebody, some innovator figured out how to make synthetic materials. And in only in this, this 90-year period, we have forgotten the whole circularity. And we've been believing that somebody else is taking care of the waste. And I strongly believe that we are reinventing the circularity. The people want that, they see the feasibility of it. The industry, for example, fashion industry, has very, very high interest on the circular solutions, because they believe that that can be solving most of the problems. So I'm sure that we are learning it again because it has been part of our DNA for all of our history.

It sounds like it. It sounds like it for sure. Another thing that used to happen is people were made bespoke clothing and it would, it was made to fit them and it would last for a long time so they wouldn't have to, you know, rebuy. And I guess that might be a final question, one of my final questions, because I've got one more for you. Because can this material last? Is it durable? So the materials that you make out of it, are they durable and are they built to last?

Of course, that's a key issue for us, that kind of mechanically the fibres what we are producing has to be on par with the quality of virgin materials. And that is something what we've been really validating and testing with the leading brands and with their manufacturers. And all the tests are showing that, that that it is really behaving in a way, same way as the virgin raw materials. For example, in terms of pilling, pilling is one of the traditional problems that you are getting the little pills on the fabrics. In that respect, the latest research and analysis is showing that we are even better than some of the traditional materials. So I'm convinced that in that respect, the material is really on the level of what is needed on the market.

Patrik, I also just want to ask you, let's go into the detail a little bit about the mechanical structures of this. You obviously have a background in waste management. Was it biomaterials?

Biomaterials, yes, but it's in a different, very different field because it's in the field of growing professionally the vegetables. So cucumbers and tomatoes and melons. So nothing to do with the fabrics or textiles.

But when you break something down and you were saying that you can break down not just textile waste, you can break down other waste and turn that into textiles as well. At what level are we breaking down these, these bio— these materials? Sorry, what— to what level are we breaking down? Is this sort of microfiber level and then things are being reconstituted back together? Can you explain the real detail of it?

Excellent. Even smaller, even smaller. So we are We are in a way, we are making the physical cellulose because cellulose is everywhere in the world. Say it's in the trunks of the plants that are growing and the cotton is, for example, purely cellulose. The trees are cellulose. So in our technology, we are using sustainable chemistry, responsible chemistry to break down the cellulose on polymer level into liquid cellulose. So we're using the miracles of, of the, of the chemistry, uh, to make liquid cellulose in, in between our process by decreasing the pH. So we are making— but also increasing— so the making alkaline— when we are making very alkaline cellulose, it becomes by nature liquid. Liquid. And when we are recovering the pH to neutral level, then it's regenerating a new fiber. So it is just happening by, by playing with the pH of the, of the cellulose. And in that, that process, because in, in it's in between liquid, it really forgets the whole history. It, it, it's also removing, uh, all the dyes or the colors what, what has been used in the, in the history of of the textile making, for example. And the origin of the cellulose doesn't matter because, say, the cellulose is always cellulose, no matter whether it's in cotton or whether it's in paper or whether it's in rice straws. In a liquid form, it's the same. It's like salt. Say, even though, say, salt might be tasting different when it has a different kind of shape. But at the end of the day, when you make salt a liquid, it always tastes the same. And it's the same also with the cellulose, that it's really at the end of the day always the same. And then I said that, that by using the miracle of nature, that by recovering just the pH, the neutral level, it crystallizes a new fiber.

Incredible, incredible. And then you can, um, dye it and do whatever you need to do after that.

Exactly, exactly. So that's one of the strengths that the next part of the textile manufacturing doesn't need to make any changes. So the next part is yarn spinning, then the next is fabrics manufacturing, and they can use the existing technologies and factories without making any changes.

Does it come out in a particular color?

No, it's a natural color. So it's kind of whitish. It's not exactly white, but whitish.

My final question is, what do you do with the waste in the process? There must be some waste in your process, whether it's materials or some sort of, you know, corrosive waste. I don't know. What waste is there in your process?

Yeah, so the— as our technology is really working with the cellulose, so we can utilize the cellulose to regenerate, to recover the new fibers. Everything which is not cellulose, like polyester, Because say, if you buy today, say, a cotton t-shirt, it's not really 100% cotton anymore. All the threads are made of polyester. And also it's typically there are blends because they're using other fiber types in garments. It's just to make or gaining some, some certain properties for the garment. So almost every garment has also— this is using some other fibers and the other fiber types are waste for us. So polyester is the main main component what we are removing. And that, that's something what we are using as an energy today. We also looking at the technologies how to recover it, and then we're getting closer and closer to it. But today we don't have a solution yet for that.

Okay, fantastic. So the, so the polyester, you burn it and turn it into energy?

Exactly, yes.

Look, Petri, I think that's about it from, from my side. Is there anything that you'd like to say as a sort of parting gift to everyone? For you, what would be your vision of infinite fiber in 20 years' time?

Yes, our dream is that every people in this planet would be loving Infinafiber and they would have an access to it so that we would be successful in making this fiber type affordable and accessible for every people in this planet. And it would be a synonym for a sustainable material in textile industry. And not only in fashion, but also in diapers and wet wipes and all that sort of materials.

In anything, in anything textile, textile-based, I guess.

Exactly.

So soft goods, I mean, my curtains, my carpets, my sofa.

Exactly.

It could all use it. Well, I wish you all the best. I look forward to seeing the name Infinitid Fiber come up again and again and again because, um, It sounds almost too good to be true, but having spoken to you, I know that that's not the case.

Yeah, thank you, David. Yeah, it's been an amazing journey, and hopefully it's even better in the future.

So yeah, as I said, real game changer, that one. Fantastic conversation. Thanks again to Petri for coming on the show. That's all we've got time for this week. I hope you're all keeping well, staying safe, and I look forward to joining you for another episode of Fashion Made. Next week. All the best.

Bye-bye.