Sanne Schoenmaker on Why Fashion Needs More Engineers Than Influencers | Fashion Made S4E5

The creative aspect is not going to disappear from the industry. I think certain things will be automated or replaced by, um, like virtual models, for example. But I think someone still has to design the photo shoot. Where is this model sitting or standing? What's the backdrop? And even though you don't have to physically make the photo anymore, maybe, um, there's still a design director role. Yeah, but it's going to be one person. It's not going to be a whole team.

There's not going to be 50.

Yeah, so I think jobs are just going to get versa in that sense, but you still need the same people just for different tasks.

Welcome to another session of Fashion Made live from our London studio. Sanne Schoenmaker.

Yes.

How do you say it in Dutch?

Schoenmaker.

Schoenmaker. Thank you for coming in.

It rolls right off the tongue.

Really great to meet you. Although we've spoken before and you've come to one of our events, you came to Berlin, I believe.

Yes, right.

So I was very interested to talk to you because you touched on a subject that I think is underplayed in this space, which is the area of technology, not from what it can do for us or how it can change our world or how it can change supply chains, but who's going to do it, right? So where is the talent? Yeah. So, so that's kind of what I wanted to talk to you about. So thank you for coming in. And maybe it would be good if you could sort of give a bit of an intro and explain who you are because you're the co-founder of TechTailors.

I am.

So, yeah, it'd be great to find out more about kind of how you got into this wonderful world of fashion.

Well, wonderful, wonderful, like, I think that's up for debate. Yeah, but my company TechTailor essentially is focused on automating pattern making, and in doing that, we aim to reduce overproduction as much as we can because I think there are so many inefficiencies throughout the process. and patternmaking plays such a big role in all of it, but it's a very tiny element of a very humongous production process, so it's often overlooked. And it's extremely difficult, so it's a very complex specialized area that we operate in.

But you were running a brand before, right? Yes. So, tell me more about that.

We were running, together with my mom actually, we were running a tailor-made workwear for women brand. So we did suits, dresses, skirts. We were sort of going for the Suits vibes at the time. I don't know if you remember the TV show.

Oh, there's the film, there's the program Suits. Yeah, okay. But just for women?

Yes, because for men at the time you could get, and still to this day can get, tailor-made suits anywhere, like, and suits in general anywhere. And I think for women, especially back then, but also still now, it's harder to get access to tailor-made clothes that are somewhat affordable.

Yeah.

And not like thousands.

Yeah.

So we started doing that. But my mom has a background in physics.

Okay.

So as we were making clothes ourselves, she was like, this patternmaking process is very manual, very time-consuming. How can we automate it? And that's when we started like writing the algorithm for pattern generation.

Amazing. So does this mean that like as a kid you like to wear suits? You and your mom like to wear suits at home all the time, or?

Not to that extent, but I was very intent on looking like her. And she worked at Capgemini. At the time.

Okay, okay.

Um, so she did make me a very much yellow, bright yellow suit with a skirt, like a pencil skirt.

Okay.

I think I was 7 at the time.

Yeah.

And I thought I looked great until I went to school and the kids made fun of me because I looked like a corporate director at the ripe old age of 7. So then I never wore it again because I was ridiculed.

Um, so that's, that's interesting. And so that's the etymology of, of starting Tech Tailors. And then it sounds like you've been on a bit of a journey since then. And obviously with COVID in the way, I think you and I have spoken before about what it takes to get into this fashion sector. Like, it's a, it's a trillion-dollar industry, but, um, it's very closed door. And finding the right people and communicating with the right people, and then understanding how clunky individual processes are in each of these brands— I mean, I think, uh, it's, it's not an easy market to break into.

No, and thank God we didn't know that before we got started because we had a local fashion brand. We didn't know anything about like the larger fashion industry. We worked with local tailors, so the whole supply chain and production process was a mystery to us. Um, but I think as we said before, like the benefit of COVID was everything was online.

Yeah.

So for a year I just deep dived into the fashion industry and all the players and all the software, the hardware, the departments to sort of make sense of the system and see where we can add value and play a role. But I think what you touched on earlier is that it's very siloed. There's all these different departments and they all have their own KPIs. And very often they're contradicting to each other. So, one department will like a solution, but the other will be like, "Yeah, but that's not good for my department and for my KPIs." And that's where the complications arise.

Yeah. And coming back to the, the sort of the genesis of why I wanted to talk to you, so I, I have, I have 3 daughters. My 13-year-old is technically minded. She goes to university, let's say she goes to MIT, she studies advanced AI, and where is she going to work? Is she going to want to work in fashion? So what, what do you think the, what do you think the fashion industry needs to do to start attracting more technically minded people? How does the industry homogenize what is ultimately seen as a creative sector with technology? How, how do we go about changing that pathway?

I think there's two sides to it. I think one side is reputation and the other side is remuneration. Um, and I think, let's start with reputation. I think the fashion industry is known for being creative, um, it's known for marketing campaigns, for design, for influencers. And I think people underestimate the sheer size of the fashion industry and the complexity that's involved. I think fashion, like, more or less employs 11% of the global workforce.

It's huge.

Yeah. And I think it has this reputation of being around like pink dresses, like, oh, it's a cutesy industry for outsiders. Anyone who's working in the fashion supply chain knows that that's a different story. But I think it's not seen as challenging. Whereas Big Tech, everyone thinks like, oh, that's very complex, which it is. Um, but fashion is also very complex if you're looking at the problems that we need to solve. So I think that's one side of it. Like, it's an interesting industry to work in even if you're not creative, even if you're not into trends, even if you're not into fashion whatsoever. Um, my uncle, who's also joined our company now, could care less about trends. Yeah, but he's very much focused on sustainability, always has been. Yeah. And to him, like, his main driver for doing this is how do we reduce overproduction? And he also comes from tech and consultancy. So I think there's so much work to be done and there are already amazing technical people in fashion, but we just don't have enough of them to solve the problems that we need to solve, in my opinion.

No, I think that's interesting. And then you also said remuneration, so yes, getting, getting the wallets out the right way. So yeah, if LVMH were to spend as much as they do on marketing on tech development or tech talent—

yeah, I think the, it's, it's the budget is two-sided. It's what do you spend on IT as a department, but also what kind of salaries are you paying for your CTO, yeah, versus your CMO, for example.

Yeah.

And CTOs in fashion are not paid as much as in other industries. So if you're a high-level tech player, then it's attractive to go into production.

You're not going to do it. You're not going to do it. And I think that comes down to perhaps the old way of working, which is that the CMO is in the profit center of the business and the CTO is in the problem-solving center of the business. And I think that the CTO will soon become the fulcrum of profit for a lot of commerce. But that's when in 5 years' time it's AI-to-AI agents that are doing the whole e-com will become AI-com. And then the CTO becomes a lot more important. I think. But, um, but it's that transition. And, uh, so you mentioned sustainability, and like, I don't know how much you can say, and I don't want you to talk about any specific clients, but what do you really think? Like, I don't think a lot of people know that the fashion industry is the second biggest pollutant industry, only second to energy in the world. Um, what do you think is happening with sustainability in fashion? I think a lot is happening in terms of communication about sustainability.

So I think there's all this, um, we use more sustainable fabrics or we're circular, and it's all these terms and all these numbers are thrown at us, but nothing is defined. So I'm like, if I have a number but I don't have a definition for it, what that means, then it doesn't say anything. So I think we need stricter regulation on different levels to make sense of all the data that we have. Like, for example, overproduction, it's known to be around 30% industry-wide. Is that based on value or volume? For example, these things are never defined.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of brands are not required by law to put statements in their annual report regarding their production volume. And I think as this whole sustainability discussion is very much focused on materials, yeah, and not on the production side, like the scale of things, and especially overproduction, yeah. And I also think there's a discussion about overproduction versus overconsumption which is tricky because fashion is saying like, oh, but consumers are over-consuming.

Yeah.

If they stop buying, we'll stop producing.

Yeah.

And I think that's sort of the easy way out.

Yeah.

Um, sorry.

Yeah, well, I was just gonna say, you're right, because it's like, it, it's not— so fashion is in many senses a reactive sector. It reacts to what, what you and I want.

It reacts a year in advance. Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

And there lies the problem.

Well, yes, that's true, but, but what I mean is that people, people vote with their feet, right? In so much as if Temu is experiencing extremely high growth in Europe because it's selling jackets for £10 or £5 or €5, then the problem doesn't necessarily lie with fashion, but it lies with mankind in some ways.

Yeah.

Or, or so this is what I mean. I think it's, it's a really interesting discussion. Sustainability in fashion is a, is a really interesting, um I think it's very complicated, but ultimately I think it's technology that's going to change it.

Yeah. And I also think in this whole overconsumption discussion, there's such an elitist point of view as well, where there's this mantra of buy fewer, better, which I think is great for anyone that's middle income and above. But if you're a struggling family or struggling to make ends meet, let's say, then of course you're going to buy cheaper fast fashion. Yeah, like it doesn't make sense to allocate whatever budget you have to very high-end sustainable kids clothes. And even for yourself, that's the case. So I also think that fast fashion in some ways, even though fast fashion, again, a term that's not defined, what does it actually mean?

What does it actually mean? What's fast fashion to you? Cheap? Quick? Different retail outlets?

I think fast fashion to me, I think SHEIN is fast fashion because they react to trends in real time and produce very quickly. To demand. If I look at H&M, for example, it's deemed fast fashion. But how fast is it? Yeah, I don't think it's all that fast as compared to Inditex, for example, or Zara more specifically. Yeah. So fast for me is like in lead time.

Yeah.

And I think there's this whole affordable fashion market and some of them are very slow and some of them are very fast. And I also think the difference in quality even within these brands varies greatly. So a pair of jeans from Zara might last you as long as a pair of Levi's. The cut might be different, the fabric might be different, but they're still very heavy denim. So again, to the sustainability point of view, I think the whole discussion around sustainability should be about what are you extracting in terms of resources What are you emitting in terms of carbon, toxins, you name it? And what's the durability of your product? How long can a person reasonably wear it and wash it? And then there's another aspect of how long do they actually do that? Because I think a lot of good clothes are thrown out because people are fed up with it. It's not fashionable anymore. Yeah, that part is harder to solve for, I think.

Yeah. And let me ask you a personal question. Do you shop on Vinted? Have you got Vinted in Holland?

Yes, we do. Yeah.

Do you shop on Vinted?

Not that often, no, but I don't really shop that often anyhow because the downside of growing up with a mother who knows how to sew is that she would take me to the fabric market every Saturday in Utrecht, where I'm from. Um, so from the age of 4, I could distinguish polyester from silk.

Oh really? Yeah, yeah.

So shopping, to me, it's like I have a fairly critical eye to what kind of materials I like, um, and I don't really look for sustainable brands. I just look for what will last me a long time.

Okay, that's interesting.

Yeah, that's interesting, because also, how do you define a sustainable brand at this point? It's so difficult. And we work in this industry, and I wouldn't be able to tell you which brand is more sustainable than the other.

Well, I almost feel like it's, it's a bit of a, like, sustainability. Like, if you put fashion sustainability— like, I know there are some brands do some great things, like Patagonia. There's a UK brand called Finistère, and when I first bought a jumper from them, it came in, uh, paper wrapping, you know. And so that— so you could see that there were efforts made to be sustainable. But I think having worked in this sector for a long time, I know that, that there's no such thing as sustainable when it comes to dyes, when it comes to water, when it comes to supply chain, when it comes to, you know, supply chains of materials. Like, it's, it's almost impossible. I suppose to my mind, the only way one can be truly sustainable is exactly as you were just saying, is mending, fixing, um, increasing the, the lifetime of a fashion or, or a power product. I think that's the only really truly sustainable thing we could do. And I think again, that comes down to mindset. And again, that's the antithesis of the sector, which is to keep us buying and keep us spending.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, so in terms of other technology that, that you're— what other technologies are you interested in, in, uh, in the fashion space? Are you using any AI, or is—

oh my God, there's so much technology that's interesting right now. And I think there's such, um, a gap between the technology that's available and the technology that's being implemented. Because— and also with AI, like, there's, there are all these new capabilities, all these new opportunities, but you have to implement them in huge organizations. And I think that's where the delays and their difficulties are. I don't think we're anywhere close to optimizing on all the tech that's available on every level, because I think, um, for fashion brands and manufacturers, there's this You can have to distinguish between, do I want to use tech and AI for efficiency gains or for systemic change? And that's two very different realms. Like, how can you and I do our work more efficiently? There's all sorts of tech on all sorts of level you can implement for that. But how do you create systemic change within your supply chain is very complex field, and I think that requires creative thinking, um, together with, um, highly technical people that understand how can we use all these different tech elements to our advantage to work towards the goals that we have as an organization.

What do you think about nearshoring and on-demand production? Based on where you work, that's probably going to be an important avenue for you, I would imagine, in terms of building partnerships in that area, or not? I'm not sure.

Yeah, I think it's, it's two-sided, but I think it's very exciting that we're moving more towards on-demand only from— I think right now we're only moving there from a mental perspective. I don't really see it being implemented at a large scale, but I do think that coming back to the sustainability argument, if you're using a 30% more sustainable material, let's say in terms of carbon footprint, for example, if you're still overproducing as well, then so many of those carbon gains are lost along the way because you're overproducing, over-distributing, and over-destroying by the end of it. Um, so I think it's such an inefficient way because you're optimizing here but you're losing it all here. Um, so I think that's where on-demand to me is essential to really get close to net zero. Yeah, because then if you combine that with sustainable materials and then figure out a way to ship it to the customer that's not carbon intensive— because I think the downside of on-demand production right now is if you, let's say, you manufacture in Portugal and you sell in the Netherlands and you want to have quick delivery for your customers, because consumers want things quickly, that's just the way it is. Even if you can manufacture very efficiently, are you going to ship it by cargo or are you going to put it in a truck? That's maybe— the truck is going to be less carbon intensive but slower. So I think there's a whole field in on-demand production that we still have to figure out, like, and that's going to be different for every single company and every single product. Every single product. Where is the manufacturer? Where is the consumer? How can we allocate this most, most efficiently and make a fair carbon assessment in terms of what if we bulk produce in China, ship it on a cargo ship, which per garment is not that carbon intensive, and then distribute it in an electric van to the customer, let's say. Or do we produce closer to home and then see what the transportation options are and make a fair comparison of all the elements involved? And not just say this material is X percent more sustainable.

Yeah.

Without sustainable being quantified in any meaningful way.

Yeah. Well, I mean, and the, the carbon footprint and net zero obviously is a global movement. Um, yeah, you know, and there are people that don't think that carbon is the reason that climate is changing, but whatever, whatever that, whatever the The truth is behind that, the reality is that fashion is wasteful. Fashion is over-consuming natural resources, and we need to change mentalities. And so there's a guy I had on the podcast called Garrett Gerson from a company called Variant3D, which you— have you heard of them?

You've told me about them.

Yeah, yeah. And so they're, you know, so their tech is pretty exciting. But it made me think, when it comes to onshoring, that 3D printing surely is the solution to the supply chain issue. If that technology is to mature steadily and steadily and steadily, then would you see a world where you can, you can design and make and, and then sell— sorry, design and sell and then make very close to the consumer. Do you think that we'll ever be in a position where we'll be able to do that with a mass array of garments, or do you think that that's a pipe dream?

I think there are a lot more possibilities than we're willing to admit right now, because I think fashion has been operating in the same way for decades now. It's only been incremental innovation at this point. There hasn't been a lot of radical innovation, except for SHEIN.

Yeah.

They've radically redesigned the design and manufacturing process.

Yeah.

Whether that's for better or worse is yet to be determined. But I think in terms of 3D printing, it's a very tricky technical challenge because what it's been used for now is mostly with synthetic materials. So you put in some sort of liquid form of polyester and then you print it and it becomes solid. Design capabilities are limited. Look, I'm not an expert on 3D knitting and manufacturing. So I, um, I have to say that preemptively, um, but I think there's a lot of challenges still to overcome, whereas nearshoring and producing in a more automated manner can be done. It's an easier transition, I think, from a technological point of view. Um, from an organizational point of view, that might be different, uh, because that's the— I think that's the eternal struggle that everyone that works in the fashion tech scene is facing. Like, we have all this tech, how do we implement it and how do we demonstrate the benefits for different departments?

Yeah.

Um, but I definitely think, to come back to your original question, that nearshoring is definitely possible with the right tech. Yeah, we just have to automate the manufacturing process to a larger extent than we're doing now. Yeah, because so much of manufacturing right now is still manual.

Yeah.

It's unbelievable.

Yeah.

If you see what's happening.

Yeah.

But yeah.

And what— like, so you just mentioned a really interesting point, which is like there's so many technologies bombarding like every single function within. So you're the SVP of design or you're the SVP of supply chain or you're a CMO or like— and the problem with fashion is it's such a big beast, but it's so fragmented and so competitive.

Yeah.

That it feels like it's almost arrested by its own success, like it's arrested development in terms of as a cohesive industry making a change. And I don't see how— I mean, I don't know how that changes, but it's— I don't know. Yeah, I think it's, it's quite interesting. But in terms of TechTailors, what's next for you guys then? What's like on your roadmap over the next 3 to 4 years? What are you, what are you planning on doing?

Well, we have, uh, two different streams that we're working on. One is on-demand pattern technology to automate, uh, on-demand production for both standard sizes and made-to-measure, for all the brands that are willing to dive into that realm. And then on the other side, we have pattern tech that enables brands to go from a tech pack to a pattern and therefore shorten the design cycle and shorten the sample cycle and therefore their entire lead time. And I think reducing lead time is essential to reducing overproduction because right now these brands start the design process like on average 45 weeks before they hit the shelves. And I mean, how are you going to predict 45 weeks in advance what's going to sell? It's just monumentally difficult. So I think if we're able to shorten that lead time, um, then brands can produce closer to demand and hopefully also replenish after seeing what sells well. But that requires a lot of different technology on a lot of different levels to enable that. But I think that's the other realm of what we're doing, and they can also be used together, of course.

Yeah. And are you working with Inditex or Zara or any of these guys yet?

No, I think Inditex is a very sort of closed-off organization, and they're vertically integrated, so they have their own production systems. I haven't really managed to get a foot in the door there. I think for us it's been easier to have access to brands that work with independent manufacturers, and we also work with manufacturers, so we're attacking from both angles, let's say. Yeah, because both use pattern tech and tech to develop products. So yeah, we're bridging the gap between the brands and the manufacturers right now.

Fantastic, fantastic. And from your awareness, in terms of the, the article that you wrote around tech talent, are there any companies that you've seen through your experience that are kind of leading the way in terms of attracting kind of key tech talent into fashion at the moment?

Um, it's a very good question. I haven't really I don't know this on, let's say, a C-level. I don't really know what's going on behind closed doors in terms of hiring there. What I do see at, for example, MAS, a very large global manufacturer, is that they've really focused much of their attention on tech to shorten that lead time. And I think Brad Ballantine, the CEO of MAS, the American division, said like you can't sprinkle AI on legacy systems. And I think that's such a telling point of view because that's what we're dealing with in fashion. There's legacy systems, legacy hardware, legacy software. These are multi-year contracts and they're huge contracts. So it's not like even if you have better tech that these companies can say, okay, out with the old, in with the new. It doesn't work that way. So I think I think that's also for us what we're continuously trying to navigate is how do we optimize the tech that we're building for the existing supply chain. But on the other side, we're also like, but it could be so much better if we could build it for a new supply chain.

If you did things differently. So, get as many startups as you can involved at an early stage, I guess.

I think with startups, it's so tricky because there are so many outsiders coming into fashion, which I think is great because we came as an outsider and you have a fresh perspective on things. You're not in the sort of tunnel vision of this is how manufacturing has been done for the last, I don't know, 3 decades. But there's also a danger to it because then you're ignoring all these legacy systems And if you want to scale your revenue, you need big clients. That's just the truth of it. So I think all the startups that are coming in are struggling with the same thing. Like, yeah, we're selling suboptimal solutions right now.

Yeah.

To fit in the existing supply chain.

Yeah.

But I think there's a bunch of us, um, that, um, are looking into how could we really redesign this and how can we partner with existing manufacturing companies and brands to demonstrate that this can work at scale. Yeah, I think, and 3D also plays a big role in this. We're now working with Enhance That and Dominik Slaughter. I don't know, I think you've met him before. We're really figuring out the workflow of going from design to sample to production in the most efficient and accurate way.

Yeah.

To just like take out all the discrepancies. What kind of tech do we need? What sort of consortium of companies do we need to make this work?

And what's your experience? Just out of— this is just curiosity. I imagine you've spent a lot of time in factories over the last few years. What's your experience of that in Southeast Asia or Asia? Like, how do you feel How do you feel it's going to work if we increase efficiencies, for example, to the point where we can— I can order something in London from you in Holland and I can make it here, and we cut out a whole element of the production process which is causing the— apparently causing the world to suffer? Um, what do you think? Do you think, like, how do you think that's going to affect those local regions? More of a sociological question, like, what's your experience of that?

I think the pace of change is slow.

Yeah.

So eventually, I think it's realistic that jobs there are gonna, um, disappear, either due to tech or due to nearshoring. But I feel right now there's also such a gap between boardroom theory and factory floor reality. And there's all these decisions being made based on, um, internal corporate, um, motivations, let's say, and they're being pushed down to the people that are designing the products, that are doing the sampling, that are doing the manufacturing, and they're not optimal, optimal solutions for these people.

Yeah.

And I think that's, um, where all tech providers have to really wake up and see how can we build tech that works for that works for the pattern makers, that works for the factory workers. And then also make the business case back to C-level. Like, if you implement it this way, these are the time savings, these are the quality improvements to sort of solve the problem from both ends and not just one end. I think that's the first step. And then eventually, I think it's highly realistic that a lot of people are going to lose their jobs. yeah, due to AI, not just in fashion but in a lot of industries, in every sector. And I think it's perhaps more fearful for Southeast Asian workers because there's less of a social security system in place as compared to Europe, for example. Yeah, at the same— in the US, it's equally dangerous to be replaced by AI because there's also no social security in place. Yeah, or at least not very significant, let's say.

No. No, no, it's an interesting, it's an interesting point because it's something that fashion's been looking at for a long time, but I feel like we are on the edge of— we're living through a period of time, we're quite lucky I think, to see like a massive industrial change in the way everything is done.

Yeah.

Um, and whole sectors and whole, um, yeah, jobs, uh, like professions are going to just vanish. Over the next 10 years. But, you know, when, when, when we in Europe talk about that, or in the Western world, we talk about legal or, you know, established professions. We don't talk about factory workers.

Yeah, we never talk about them.

No, we don't talk about in this whole sustainability argument because it's the dirty little secret. That's what, you know, my t-shirt and your, your shirt and your coat.

Yeah.

So yeah, it's an interesting— it's an interest— it's interesting to see whether as, as humanity, as a global whole, there'll be any, um, empathy? Probably not. I think probably not. We're not particularly empathetic.

I would say not. I think it also is highly dependent on where you're living.

Yeah.

And I think COVID was sort of the first, um, peek into the future that we got, where a system came crashing down and then it was up to the governments to make sure that their people were okay. In the Netherlands, for example, in no time there were all these, um, sort of stimulus packages for people that had lost their job or that had their own company but couldn't sell anymore because of COVID So, and I mean, it wasn't perfect, but there was a lot of help in place for a lot of people that needed it, um, as compared to the US, for example, where I think The financial aid came in 12 months after the first COVID breakout. And I think with AI it's going to be no different because so many jobs are going to get replaced. It's really dependent on where are you living and how willing is that government to take care of you.

Yeah, I would agree with that. And I personally think that whilst AI is amazing and we're pushing the boundaries at the moment, from a tech standpoint, I think quantum computing is infinitely more exciting in terms of its— that, that's when I think we'll see unfathomable scale in terms of what we can do. I don't know how that will affect fashion. I can't quite figure that out. I think it's, it's more obvious in healthcare, or it's more obvious in, you know, discovering new planets or solving diseases or living forever, but I don't know how that trickles down to fashion. Um, maybe making, making smarter supply chains, maybe. I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, I think with all these, let's say, technical developments, there are sort of different scenarios. You can ignore it or underestimate it or fear it, or you can capitalize on it. And I think that's—

I like it—

um, where it's a mindset thing as well. This tech is changing at such a rapid pace, um, that it's hard to keep up and it can be overwhelming. But I think we're still human, and for now we're still controlling the computers. I don't know how long that's going to last us for, but I think there's so much we can do with it, um, that we just need to find a way to make it work for us.

Yeah.

And stay ahead of it.

Yeah.

Instead of saying like, oh, it's It's coming for us. Yeah. And maybe we all should be very terrified. Like, I'm not an AI expert, so I won't be able to make anything, to say anything insightful on that realm, on the sort of the philosophical realm of it. But I think for now it's a matter of keeping up. And that's quite hard because you have the pace of progress on a technical level is it's so steep and then the implementation is so slow and it's like, how do you balance the two? Yeah, um, and I think that must also be an enormous challenge for these brands and manufacturers. Like, yeah, how do we keep track of what's possible? How do we keep track of how we can implement it? Who's going to implement it? Who do we need for it? Yeah, um, so it must be very, uh, a complex field to operate now.

Yeah. So, Sana, here's a question for you from my daughter who's 13, uh, and loves fashion, love, loves the idea of being a fashion designer, loves the idea of being a model, you know. So, but, but she's not alone. A lot of her friends would love the gravitas that comes from working in fashion. However, in 10 years' time, what, what do you think people who are young, maybe they're 15, 16, 18, 20, who are creative, what do you think that they need to do to prepare to work in a field like fashion?

Well, I think first of all, it must be immensely difficult to be a student now and to try and decide what to study. Because I think when we were finishing high school, it was quite clear what— if you want to work in fashion, this is the trajectory. If you want to work in finance, this is the trajectory. And then you were fairly certain of getting a job that paid well if you would go into economics, for example. I think right now with the pace that generative AI is coming in, it's much more fuzzy on what the most obvious direction is to move in to get a job in fashion. Um, and I think, I mean, I'm afraid to say anything about where we're going to be in 10 years' time because I'm not that deep into, um, the, uh, sort of the, um, the trajectory that AI is going to go into. But I do feel what we're already seeing is that it pays to be an expert. So I think the more niche you can go in terms of your expertise, the more likely you'll be, uh, to get a position at any company, but also in fashion. And I think within fashion, it's going to be really interesting to see that so many things that we thought were so human can actually be done by AI fairly well. If you look Design, for example, scouring the internet on what the trends are, uh, and then distilling a design from that is now a human job. But I think, um, if design is not your main pillar, which for many brands is the case, um, they all have fairly basic designs, then that's a job that could easily be done by AI. So I think it's really going to be about finessing what AI is doing. And in order to finesse, you really have to have a really tight grasp on the details and, um, just have a really good eye, I think. Um, so I think the only thing I can say on this topic is to become as much of an expert as you can in a field that's interesting to you.

Yeah.

And if you want to work in fashion, like, what department do you want to work in? Like, do you Are you interested in design or do you like the industry, but are you technical? Then that's an entirely different discussion. And I think the model industry is also going to be highly affected by AI. I think it already is with all these companies that are building models, let's say, that have digital garments on. It's already replacing like a significant part of photoshoots for brands.

I know. It's crazy. It's crazy.

Yeah.

And I wonder, like, I get what you're saying, that you should specialize, and, and, but I also wonder whether in 5 years, if— sorry— design and merchandise planning and some of the sort of stalwart positions that one would get as they work their way up in a fashion brand, whether they're in the business side or the creative side, if a lot of those jobs are gone Does it not make sense for this next generation to focus on like humans, on Homo sapiens and how we behave and like maybe our creativity is pushed towards pushing boundaries in terms of like understanding what humans want and understanding not necessarily trends, but kind of maybe trends like maybe almost looking, looking at themselves as bosses from a very, very young age. And looking at it with a helicopter view that a lot of these jobs are going to be done, but actually the real talent is going to come from disruptive models and disruptive ideas. And I guess what I'm saying is, should we teach them to become bosses and not workers? Should we change the way they educate, the way they see the world because AI has caused abundance, so everything is done? I don't know. I don't know what that looks like, but that to me feels more empowering. To, to the youth, right? Yeah. Start a brand, right? You've got all of this at your, at your fingertips, disposal. Yeah, start a brand. Yeah, make a difference, you know, rather than work there and earn 100 grand when you're 30, and you know what I mean? Rather than that same old track, because that won't exist anymore. So that's quite exciting.

I think it is exciting, and I also think, um, the creative aspect is not gonna disappear from the industry. I think certain things will be automated or replaced by, um, like virtual models, for example. But I think someone still has to design the photo shoot. Where is this model sitting or standing? What's the backdrop? And even though you don't have to physically make the photo anymore, maybe, um, there's still a design director role. Yeah, but it's going to be one person. It's not going to be a whole team.

There's not going to be 50.

Yeah, yeah. So I think jobs are just going to scarcer in that sense, but you still need the same people. Yeah, just for different tasks.

Yeah.

And you will need fewer of them most likely. But I also think there's a difference between what AI will be able to do and what we want it to do. Like, let's imagine for argument's sake that every brand will move into digital virtual models and then one brand decides, I'm going to do physical models in physical photo shoots. I think there's always going to be a desire for something that's indelibly human.

Yeah.

And I don't think that will go away entirely. So for many brands, it will be a great efficiency gain to use, for example, virtual models. But there's also a human aspect to it that will never completely fade.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's going to be— or at least for me, it's hard to predict to what extent are brands gonna, um, capitalize on these efficiency gains, and to what extent are consumers gonna accept it? Yeah, because maybe a consumer will not be willing to only shop online, uh, with virtual models. Yeah, maybe you want to see it on a real human being. Yeah, I don't know, I'm not a sociologist. Like, that's a different— that I think is an interesting field to work in right now.

100%. Um, the psychology of of fashion. Because, because if I, if I was confronted in a, in an e-com experience with someone who had exactly the same body as me, then I would prefer that to someone who didn't. But would I? I don't know. Yeah, we don't know until it's done.

How happy you are with your body, I guess.

Well, very happy, thanks very much. But, but like, yeah, like it, it, it's, it's so fascinating. But coming back to what you were saying, I almost think like we should tell them to become experts in fashion, actually. Like, I agree that they need to be an expert. They need to be good at controlling AI or writing code or creating something new or understanding new business models or thinking strategically. But ultimately, what I think, like you just said, the opportunities are going to contract. That is something I think we could say about every single sector.

Yeah. Yeah.

So where do you get a, like, a leading edge? Where do you get yourself onto the front foot? It's by becoming an expert at the sector, right? At the— at every single nook and cranny of the sector. That's where I think the real skill will be, is, is who's got the sticking power to really learn, you know, to— as a human, and not just rely on AI to do everything.

And also to keep learning. I think that's— yeah, with the, the pace of change that we're— the rate of change that we're seeing now is that tomorrow something can be entirely different and it's hard to keep up. It's, it's labor intensive to keep up.

It's tiring.

Yeah.

Also, it's tiring. It's tiring reading all the time.

Yeah.

And it's never catching up.

Yeah, exactly. It feels like we're always behind. But at the same time, if you're reading every day, then you should also be thinking about implementation every day.

Yeah.

Like, how can we use the latest developments?

Yeah.

To optimize ABC or to create ABC, which I think is a more imaginative realm to operate in.

Yeah.

To really think of what kind of net new can we build with the tech that we have now.

Yeah. Fascinating. It's fascinating. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for coming in, Sinead. Are you going to come to our event in Milan?

I absolutely will.

Fantastic. Well, we'll meet you there. I'll see you there.

Great.

Really, really lovely to meet you again today.

And thank you for having me.

Thanks so much for coming. Thank you. Cheers.