The Only Sustainable Fashion is On-Demand With Sarah Chessis

Welcome to another episode of Fashion Made. This week's show is a great one because I've got the absolute pleasure to be joined by Sarah Chessis, the CEO of SOSOYOU, formerly with Isabella Wren. Sarah's company and Sarah's experience lies within on-demand manufacturing, customization, and using technology to enable more sustainable fashion practices. So it's a really, really, um, it's really a pleasure to have her back on the show. I know we spoke a few years ago, um, after one of our Hong Kong events, um, which is still based in Hong Kong. This one's really, really great because obviously we get into the nitty-gritty behind on-demand manufacturing, um, what's been behind the success of it, but where it still needs to go, why consumers aren't really aware of it that much but what we can do to change that and how our whole sort of ethos around sustainability can change and evolve over the next few years as sort of more technology comes into play. But hopefully our sort of understanding of sustainability evolves as well. So it's a really, really broad-ranging conversation, one that I personally enjoyed very much. Here it is.

What consumers say and what they do are often very different. Whoever you speak to will say things like consumers want to customize, but they don't actually want to do that at all. They don't want to do it. It's like when you go and buy a house, nobody really wants to build a house. They want to buy, find a nice house that is absolutely beautiful and everything's done and finished and they can move right in. Nobody, yes, maybe a few percentage of the population do, most don't want to do it. And what we found was that most people came in and they chose, we had lots of samples where, that we'd done ourselves to create how things might look like. And most of those, the majority of people chose one of those. Only a few percentage wanted anything different from what we actually had. So what I worked out was that while I like to do that, not everybody does. So I was, I was in the few percent. So there isn't like something that the mass population of people actually want to choose their own clothes. They don't. But what I became very aware of was how a traditional supply chain model worked and how inefficient it really was and and how broken it was. And the fact is I heard an expression the other day and the strategy that the supply chain works on is hope. And so brands will hope that a certain style sells and hope certain sizes sell and then they overproduce on that hope strategy. And the reality is that a lot of it remains unsold and there's a journey as well. it doesn't end up— normally doesn't go straight to landfill. There's, you know, the journey is, it's first discounted, then it goes to an outlet store, and then it goes to landfill. So it isn't straight from the store doesn't sell, landfill. There's a little bit of a journey along the way, and it's the same journey that the, uh, or similar journey that excess materials take. Because the other thing that happens in the supply chain is, right, and you know, there's a lot of statistics and a lot of different sources out there, but you know, the numbers that I hear anywhere between between 5 and 15% of the materials aren't used either. So they, again, they go on a journey, they get sold by the kilo to trade markets, fabric markets, and then they go into the market and then smaller brands or, you know, retail might buy them. Then what's left goes into landfill. So it's like a, it's not straight to landfill. There's a little bit of a journey along the way. And, you know, the reality is that most people don't understand how supply chains work. But brands do, from my knowledge, that they factor in that they will sell out a certain amount and certain amount will go on discount and then certain amount will end up in outlets and then certain amount will end up being discarded somehow. And the fact is that it's very different, they're very difficult, almost impossible to do anything else about it. So it doesn't get talked about. So the sustainability aspect often goes— so as you said, it's a really broad umbrella that's lumped together, but it can mean anything from, you know, how the treatment of employees down to how they source fabrics and whether those fabrics are recycled to start with, and then how they're produced and how they're shipped. And it can mean so many, so many different things. But I think using, you know, recycled fabrics, it's just the tip of the iceberg. Yeah.

Yeah. It is.

And you know, I mean, the other statistic is that, you know, is that the number I've heard is as much as 50% could remain unsold. That's such an enormous number. And if it is that high, the other reality is that 20% of all water pollution comes from fabric dyeing for the apparel industry. So if you think you're, you know, if you could save 10% of global water pollution. It's an enormous number. We're not shifting the needle 0.2, 0.3, 0.4. You're shifting that needle by 10%. If you only produced what you needed, you would cut down on water pollution globally by 10%. That is astronomically big. And so the statistics of how you could manage it are, It's a huge number that can be shifted that way. I mean, us as a brand, Sosuyu as a brand, we never keep anything in inventory. The only inventory, and what we try to do as well is we try to source the excess materials that are being left over. And it's interesting, yeah, so that's part of what we do. So as much as possible, we source excess fabrics, and then we take them and we create fabulous collections from the fabric.

And do you go to other companies such as— I mean, the only one that I know off top of my head is Queen of Raw, um, who obviously, um, do— is, is that the kind of company that you go to for excess fabrics, or is it not that kind of marketplace?

We don't right now. We, we generally take the, um, excess material from the factories we work with. Yeah, because it's already there, it's on hand, we don't have to move it, you know.

So it's an even shorter supply chain, effectively.

Correct. And exactly right. And then we're not, um, it's not being, um, sort of, you know, we're not having to airlift it from one region to another and stuff. I mean, so you've already— it's already in situ, and we— and we— and that's what we try to use as much as possible. And we're reaching out to some other factories in the region, even though we're not using those factories, some factories that are near the factories that we work from, to see how they manage their excess fabrics and if we can take that from as well. So it's kind of more locally sourced excess materials from those factories because every factory has the same, you know, this is the same thing. There's a, you know, some, some have more, some have less, but that's what we try. So that's our first port of call is we use excess materials and we produce every single product on demand. If we can't do, if we can't use excess materials, and eventually we, you know, as the world shifts, that it will cannibalize itself anyway. There will be no more excess material because there'll be, only on-demand production. So by virtue of that, you're going to cannibalize it, right? So at some point, um, we are, you know, the plan for us is to print on demand as well. And there are some, you know, again, some amazing, uh, technology companies working on the same thing. So if you think we only use X, you know, maybe 5 or 10 different fabric qualities, and then we can print on demand using waterless dyeing then, you know, that's the dream scenario. And that's— I think that's where the world's going. So, because it's not just, you know, you have to look at how the whole ecosystem ties together.

Yeah, because I believe so. What you're talking about earlier on in some of the ways that people are approaching sustainability, these actually feel like sort of kind of like the 1% efficiency gains that they talk about in the Olympics sometimes that people are going, going for, but none of them are really this mass scale change, which is actually what is needed when we're talking about our overproduction, overconsumption problem. As you say, people overproduce on the hope that they can sell the majority of it or employ their marketing teams to make sure that they sell the majority of it. Whereas actually, if you move to a model where you only produce once someone has bought something, then you see, as you rightly said, you're seeing that needle shift. And it's interesting that you talk about the sort of local factories and getting in touch with them that are nearby, because that almost feels more of a community feel aspect to this giant sort of behemoth industry. But actually, that there is— you can still achieve local community kind of supply chains that will enable this lack of waste.

That's, that's the kind of— and I think that's, you know, one of the biggest impediments, if you like, with on-demand manufacturing is having your raw materials available. Because you're still— you're, you know, it doesn't help the problem if you're buying raw materials that then won't get used. That's not helping anybody, right? So, so that's our— that's the strategy that we, that we take, is that we do as much as possible from excess materials. And when we can't use excess materials, we will use base materials and then we'll print on demand where we can. So that's the strategy that we've employed to be able to facilitate it.

Do you think consumers need to be made aware of how incredibly unsustainable the industry is? Do you think that would make any difference? I mean, there's lots and lots of incredibly inefficient industries. I mean, automotive, for instance, is also one, but none of us are really aware of that. And what really needs to happen is government regulation needs to take place within these industries to improve their efficiencies. Do you think for the fashion industry, because it is such— what I would say, I was going to say more fashionable, but I mean, that's really— it's interesting, fashion really is a word that wasn't always associated with clothes. It's only in the last sort of 60 years that the word has become synonymous with clothing. You know, 100 years ago the word fashion didn't really exist in terms of its relation to clothing. But with regards to things like automotive, it's not really a sort of trendy industry, that's what I'm trying to say. So, point being, consumers are aware a lot more of fashion and what's going on in the fashion industry. Do you think it's important that they do know how bad a problem sustainability is within the industry?

I do. I think it's, um, I think educating, uh, consumers is, uh, is, is key. Um, but I also think as well that the, um, the key messages are great if there's a solution, if there's an alternative. So it's what— so yes, it's great to sort of, uh, it's a bit like, I mean, I don't know whether you're a convert, but I could eat Beyond Burgers till the cows come home. I could literally. And to the extent that I actually will, uh, I don't generally eat hamburgers anymore, beef burgers. I don't I don't like them much these days. I prefer Beyond Burgers. But it's one thing to say that beef burgers are not great for you and it's processed and, you know, it's not a brilliant idea. But it's something else to say, and here's the alternative. It's very easy to take something up when you know that there's another option for you. But it's very difficult and maybe even futile to tell people that it's like saying, you know, tap water. Bad for you, but you can, you know, die of thirst otherwise. I mean, you know, what are you going to do? This is— you've got no alternative, right? It's that or nothing. I think there is something else, there is an alternative, then people will choose the alternative. I think that, you know, one of the things that, um, almost without, without exception, the people that work with SosoYou and our customers, uh, almost always say it was the, um, it's the sustainability, it's a sustainable, uh, message that is attractive about SosoYou, and it's the on-demand manufacturing. You know, I mean, the one thing that— I think it was one of your questions that you asked— I mean, the one thing that on-demand manufacturing, to my mind, whether— and it could be, you know, if one day it might happen, but I think it'll be years away— is that on-demand manufacturing cannot compete on speed. It's the difference between, you know, walking into a restaurant and somebody making the food for you and they're— and then handing you a hamburger. It's the same thing.

It's a very interesting point, Sarah, because you could argue that one of the really unsustainable industries is actually the food industry and the incredible amount of waste there. Now, would you be prepared to pre-order your meal a few days in advance if you were going to go out for a nice meal with your partner or your family or just by yourself? Would you be prepared to pre-order it to enable a more sustainable way of eating, um, food.

I think, I think we all would if we— yeah, and again, it's that general education on the public. It's a— interestingly, so a friend of mine— oh, well, friend of mine, he's my cousin— opened a restaurant in the UK, and, um, he was with one of the really big, well-known, um, sort of celebrity chefs in the UK for years. And he opened the restaurant, and he was pretty much successful from day one. I mean, he's He had Michelin in there a while ago. But he said to me, the difference between a successful restaurant and an unsuccessful restaurant is purchasing the food, not knowing it, basically being able to preempt what people will order and not throwing food away. And that's the difference between success and failure. And I think actually truthfully that it would be amazing if more restaurants didn't fail. You know, it would be wonderful, right, if people did preorder their food. And interestingly, they do that in big groups, right? When you go out for a big group, you are asked to preorder. And actually it's fun. It's quite fun sitting at home, opening up the menu and going through it slowly. It's quite, you know, without, you know, you have 2 minutes to choose, right? Here's your menu, 5 minutes later the guy comes out and says, "What would you like?" So I think that there could be a definite, um, shift in that, but that's the same thing with on-demand manufacturing for sure. Yeah, you've got to wait for it to cook.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think it's a really interesting, um, point actually, uh, you know, for me I'm more than happy to wait, um, a little bit of time for clothing to arrive because— but I, I wouldn't say that I'm the perfect, uh, target customer for fast fashion either because it's not really my bag, you know. I, I do try to buy sustainably, but that's because I'm involved in the industry, you know, and I sort of have a bit of consciousness about this whole thing. There are millions of people who are enabling fast fashion and they do not— and to your point, you know, I do agree with you. I think they would buy more responsibly if they were more aware, but I think it's very difficult for them to become aware if the people that are telling them the stories are also the people that are selling them the unsustainable practices. Now, just because Adidas has a range made out of plastic and H&M has a sustainably sourced range and they've signed these treaties doesn't mean that they're, you know, they are— let's not get it twisted, they are part of the problem 100%. You know, these are the biggest companies in fashion and they are overproducing clothes in, to your point earlier, in the hope that they will sell them. So for those companies to be the ones that are then telling the sustainable story is almost like the biggest cow farm in the world also trying to sell Beyond Burgers. You know, it's slightly two-faced, I think.

I think that the traditional method of the supply chain method and the way big brands operate, I think that they I think they would do it differently if they could. I think that the fact is that they just don't have another solution. So they do the best that they can with what's available outside of on-demand manufacturing. And so my, yeah, my feeling is that they're trying, they are trying, they're trying, you know, they are making an effort and they are doing, taking steps to be as sustainable as they possibly can. With what's available to them, you know. And, uh, and if they probably could manufacture on demand, I'm sure they would. I mean, I know the industry is definitely going towards much shorter, um, shorter runs and, you know, more frequent runs, because again, that's really helpful too. Although it's not on demand, it's like you're just basically, you know, where once upon a time there were 4 seasons and then, you know, Uh, now there are 8 and 12, and you know, some brands even do 24 seasons now, so it's a new season every 2 weeks. So, but so what that allows them to do is to do very small runs and sell out. So they'd not— so that the overproduction on enormous quantities is much less. So I think there are definitely brands are taking steps towards it, um, because they can't do on-demand. But I, I think ultimately, um, You know, to my mind, the most sustainable way to produce anything is, uh, yeah, is on demand if you can do it.

Yeah, and you guys are having good success with that. And, you know, I went on your website earlier on and saw that you've got loads of upcoming designs as well. So how do you— you know, the on-demand manufacturing side we've covered, but the design side is also a really interesting part and what this on-demand model then enables on the design side. So tell us a little bit more about that.

So we're very, we're really fortunate that we can, inside of our product offering, we could do pretty much anything. So we're, it's really, it's really not restrictive at all. So if, when we, you know, authenticity is really important for us, really important that we're not in, you know, imposing our will on people and suggesting that they can't do certain things or, Or if they can't, if there are, you know, the rare instances where there are things about, you know, that we can't do, that we are offering an alternative, but it's within the remit of what people are asking us to do. So we're, you know, it's authentic. We're not imposing our will. And that definitely shows through. I mean, truthfully, of course, you know, that's part of the job for me. But when I see those designs come to life and I watch them being created, out of people's, it's somebody else's vision. And, you know, creating your own clothing line is a dream come true, right? Who wouldn't wanna do it? A lot of people, as I found out. But when I said I'd be developer, I thought everybody would want to do that. Everybody would wanna create their own collection or their own outfits. And it turns out that not everybody does, but for the few that do, you know, we hope that we are a conduit to, you know, some, a lifelong ambition of, you know, of the people we work with. And they have that voice, you know, that's what they have is a voice. And they're sharing that, they're sharing the sustainability and the on-demand message with the world.

How'd you go about choosing designers to work with?

We basically, we find designers who share our, basically share our value system and that it's a product that is authentic to who they are. And that, you know, that we like to work with. Honestly, the people we work with are fabulous. They are wonderful. And you know, like we fall in love. There's a, you know, there's a, you know, it's a considerable journey and there's a lot of input and a lot of personal interaction. And that again, that's what we love too. We love that we really get to know the people we work with well and that we, you know, we are rooting for them. You know, we are in their corner and we are, You know, we try and, well, we do everything we can to make, A, the journey as pleasant as possible, but also the outcome as fabulous as it can possibly be.

Yeah, you were talking about materials earlier on because it's obviously such an important part of this on-demand manufacturing journey. Do you have to put any limitations, I mean, you're saying there really aren't any, but do you put any limitations in terms of materials on the designers?

Yes, we do, we do. But on the same token, because we are using excess fabrics, there's a lot of selection. But you know, there are sometimes things that we, you know, we're just not capable of, we don't have. And we will try every which way we can to facilitate that particular demand. Like for one time somebody wanted velvet and we worked out there was a factory that we knew that had some excess velvet, so we managed to source it. And then even somebody asked us recently for denim and we don't have it, like there's no way we can source it. And we did have to say, but what we can do is, you know, we offered alternatives, things that maybe have the appearance of denim, but they're not, you know, that type of thing. So every now and then we are a little bit constrained. Yeah, because we won't— there's no way we were ever gonna order denim because we can't guarantee that we would use it all. We wouldn't know how much to order. It would never fail to surprise you. And that's why, you know, I just don't think that you'll ever be able to accurately predict what is and isn't going to sell and in what sizes. You just don't, you know, the fact is we could order the denim when we sell out, we could order the denim and then it doesn't sell out and then we're part of the problem. That's not where we want to be.

Yeah, it's really important that you guys maintain this sort of shiny sort of angel light sustainability glow around you as sort of one of the companies leading the way forward and that you don't ever forego on those principles. Otherwise, yeah, otherwise you do just slip into the other side of it, which is not what you want to do, I guess. Because it's got to be a balance, as always. It's not like we're never going to have a wholesale model, you know, that would take, you know, centuries for us to get to that point. You know, it's a very slow process for us to become— if fashion can ever become sustainable, you know. I mean, in my opinion, it would have to become mostly digital. In terms of the fashion side.

I, I, I absolutely agree. And you know, there was— oh gosh, it was years ago now, it must be heading for 4 years now— um, Amazon patented a technology process. I don't know, do you remember this? The, uh, their on-demand manufacturing model. And, um, basically it was peopleless. And, um, again they— it was pre-design, uh, predetermined styles, not, um, so you couldn't really design on demand, but you could take, say, a t-shirt and you could choose your size, choose your color, uh, whatever that looked like, and they had a system where they would make it on demand. So they would— the order would go into the automated factory, it would be— it was all done by robotics. And the fact is that they never, it's to my mind, it's never been, never came to light. And the biggest, you know, if you look back at a factory 100 years ago, you'll see it doesn't look much different than it does today, truthfully. It's still a lot of people in a room with sewing machines. I mean, the machines have gotten more sophisticated and there's more technology around the cutting and things like that. But for the most part, it's the same. I have got two schools of thought on this. First of all, I think that the universe takes care of things. And, you know, the number one producer of apparel in the world is China. The number two producer of apparel in the world is Bangladesh. Okay. And China is 100%, or as China's sort of, you know, if it's 90%, Bangladesh is 10%. It's like China's 10 times more than Bangladesh. That's huge. But the reality is, if you automated, um, manufacturing, automated sewing, Bangladesh would starve. And I think the universe takes care of things like that. There are certain countries and economies in the world that are not ready for, and, and won't be for a long time. There are— there's no, you know, nature abhors a vacuum. But, you know, and as I say, you know, one door closes, another one opens. But the corridor is horrible. You know, Bangladesh would be in a horrible corridor for a considerable period of time before, you know, they could find an alternative source of income for the economy. So my feeling is it's, you know, it's a double-edged sword. There's a reason I think the universe hasn't given us automated sewing. You know, we don't want people to starve to death, and they will in certain countries and certain economies. You know, China would easily adapt. I believe they would, you know, it would— they would take up other— they'd probably move into actually making the robotics that made the machines or something. China's very adaptable that way. Other smaller third world economies are just not adaptable and it would be devastating. So that's my feeling on sewing. It's yes, one day it will make delivery faster, but until a time comes when it can be safely removed from certain economies, then it shouldn't be.

Will it make it that much faster though? Is that the scale that it can work at is gonna be incredibly fast. I mean, you'd hope that some of those jobs would be replaced by looking after the machines, as, you know, people who sell the machines often tout as one of the benefits of it. You know, it's not, it's not the replacement of jobs, it's just the shifting of jobs. Um, that's the, the trope, but whether that's true or not, time will tell, I guess.

Yeah, I think it takes a while, actually.

Yeah, 100%.

Corridor, the corridor, you're going to be in there a little while for sure.

Yeah, I, I hadn't heard that sort of addition to that phrase before, you know, one door opens, another one closes. But yeah, the corridor, you're absolutely right, that corridor is, um, would be pretty— yeah, especially for those guys. At the same time, you know, I think in terms of an industry that needs to make massive improvements, I'm not necessarily sure the sewing automation of the sewing is the one. I think that's an efficiency gain, you know, but I think in terms of the overproduction and overconsumption, that's— and also the throwaway culture that we have and the lack of quality in the goods and the lack of return to brand recycling schemes and things like this. I think these are areas where we can make huge, huge gains before we close down factories in Bangladesh, for sure. You know, I think these are the areas that we need to focus.

Yeah, that's the thing with automation, why you wouldn't want— the only thing that automation would make it maybe faster for delivery, but you wouldn't want that. That's, that's the thing. No, you wouldn't want it.

So no, we've got other areas to focus on for sure. Um, in terms of the side that I want to speak about, which is the conversation that we have, and we've touched on it a little bit, but it's from first cost to total cost of ownership. And, um, I know that we, we tried to talk about educating consumers a little bit but maybe this is part of that discussion and maybe educating ourselves as well, because when we think of cost, we do often think of first cost rather than total cost. We don't anticipate all of these other touchpoints that a journey, that a garment or a piece of clothing can go on, probably in the assumption, you know, that hopeful assumption that we're going to sell them all in that first instance rather than as you say, the knockdowns and the moving around the supply chain. How can we shift that conversation from first cost to total cost of ownership?

I think if you're talking about the— if I've understood your question properly, are you looking at thinking about the comparison to— if you assume that only one of your products is going to sell just assume that one, because you've got the different stages, I think that the brands look at, they'll say, right, we'll sell X amount at full price, X amount of discount, X amount this discount, and the discount goes down, then X amount won't sell at all, and etc. So you've got the fact that, uh, you're actually producing two garments to only sell one.

Exactly. There's a best case scenario that we're always hopeful for, and there's a worst case scenario that we don't really want to think about.

Yeah, and then you, then you have your, then you've got the shipping cost, the warehouse cost, your, you know, your emissions cost.

I mean, I guess we're really talking about all the problems that are going on with our mass manufacturing wholesale model, and I kind of feel like maybe we should probably be talking more about on-demand because that's what you do.

Yeah, I mean, I've often thought that, you know, well, yes, on-demand manufacturing is cost is more expensive, you've also pre-sold it. So while you're, you know, when you look at a hope strategy where you hope that you're going to sell X number of units, in on-demand manufacturing, you 100% know you have. And I also think that, so that is not looked at like for like. So they look at the, you know, often it's compared to the cost of making one product mass and one product on demand. But the reality is that it's almost like you really, the cost of two products mass versus one on demand. If you think about everything else that happens after that, so it's the double cost of shipping, it's the double cost of warehousing, it's the double cost of, you know, whatever it happens, you're doing it twice. Over here, you only do it one time over here. So while, you know, I've not— I'm not on the brand side, never have been, so I have no— I don't really have a real grasp of what that looks like in terms of costing. I've only ever been looking at the on-demand side. So yeah, it's— while it's obviously you go much slower and it's much more artisanal.

So is there anything that you want to end the conversation on today, sort of some final thoughts on the industry or sort of what we've talked talked about, there's been some quite interesting comparisons with other industries. Certainly the, the food comparison I found was quite interesting.

Yeah, I think that, um, yeah, I think my hope is that, you know, on-demand manufacturing becomes the new norm. Um, and I think it's about offering an alternative and, um, and, you know, basically educating the general public because I think most people just don't No, I think if they knew they would make a difference, it would make a difference and there would be a change. But I think right now it's just a matter of, yeah, spreading the word really. It's gonna, I'm pretty sure it's gonna happen. It feels good, you know, it really does. It just feels nice. It feels like the right thing to do. And, you know, I think whenever you're doing the right thing, then, you know, you know, and you're finding ways to do it, you know you're on the right track.

You feel like you're gaining traction as well?

Huge traction, yeah, yeah. And it just is a nice, you know, it's kind of a win-win-win, you know, the designers that we work with love it, the fact that they're doing, they're making a difference. The fact that the, you know, the end consumer knows that they are, you know, they're making a difference. The factories that we work with, we're making a difference. Difference, you know, in terms of, you know, the excess materials and excess product. Well, that's where we're making the difference. And, you know, and I think as well, we love what we do. You know, we love— yeah, SoSoYou is, um, uh, is wonderful. It's, you know, they often say, um, when you really like what you do, it doesn't feel like work. And it definitely doesn't feel like work at SoSoYou, not for me anyway. Maybe the people I work with, they're going, oh my God, it's so hard work.

It doesn't feel like that for me.

Beautiful place to be.

And so Well, good luck to you. Yeah, look, thanks again to Sarah. Great chat, always great chatting to her. And that's all we've got time for this week, so hope you enjoyed it. Hope you're well, stay safe, and we'll see you with another episode next week.

Bye-bye.