The Truth about DPC in Manufacturing | Makalot Industrial Co | PI Apparel

Glad to see you all here. And my name is Ellie Chen. Just let me introduce myself again because you will see my name again during the PowerPoint because I'm kind of represent the manufacturer today to talk a little bit about the truth of DPC, the digital product creation in the manufacturing history. Well, I believe a lot of people down here that actually joined several times of the PI meeting. So, it definitely heard a lot of successful experience or the roadmaps about shared by the brands designers how they utilize 3D tools to kind of cut down the TAs or speak to the market or probably saving some monies during the whole process. So, is there anyone that's ever like kind of describe, explain to you that who are working with those brands? Designers who made this happen. And I think this is the manufacturers. So, when Cameron bring amazing true to life Sudou, but now I have to just kind of bring everyone down to the ground and talk about a little bit practical process. So, hopefully just— Somebody is nodding head, why? So, just let me start with the presentation, the truth of DPC in manufacturing industry. So, before getting started with the PowerPoint, I would like to talk a little bit about the company I'm from. I'm from Mekole. This is a top 10 manufacturing garment manufacturer. So, this is just a little bit TA. I'm going to kind of introduce my company a little bit so they will understand the reason why I'm telling you that I'm probably capable of being here to talk about the solutions, how we work with the brands. So, it was founded in Taiwan. Yes, we're from Taiwan in 1990. And then we keep on expanding, growing, and then we IPO in 2003. And just while we just increasing all the category and the production countries, as well as we kind of making a lot of innovative efforts. And during the really difficult times, as you can see up there, that we joined the national team to create the protective gear. So we are capable of making the medical garments. And along with the time, that we reach about $1 billion in sales on 2021, and we keep on growing on those sales. And just quickly kind of introduce that we do have 17 factory, own factory in within like 5 countries, and more like we collaborate factories. And those garment factories is not just making garments only, we also do the additional value add-ons like including special labors like washing, embroidery, or something like, with printing. And as you can see down here that we got all the certificates that's required from all our collaborate brands. And because Judy is not going to introduce my company, so I'll just flash all the history really quick. And next part is, so we do have our own mill. So we can provide the end-to-end service, vertical service, including the fabric research and kind of like simplify. So you can just bring any idea in the fabrication provide the best service. And data-proven analysis that we can just do the forecasting sourcing from NDP, WGSN. So anything that you want, we can just do the most value product survey and provide to you. And co-creation, here down to the co-creation. So we say about the co-creation is that all the brands are client, customer asking for some of the design. Probably their designers like, oh, We come out about 10 designs and run out of ideas. So they just come to us and say, I want this style and I want kind of like 5 variations. So we do got our design team. So we just draw out, bring out all the ideas, and then we use DPC to make it come true like a real before making any samples. This is our service. And here's come to our partners. As you can see up here that we do work with a lot of kind of wholesalers, or high-end brands, and then some of the uniform customers, which means that our category is covering from the activewear to high-end wear, like fashion wear, Champion, and including ready-to-wear and intimate swimwear. And as you can see down here is that we do have some e-com and wearable garments, which is we collaborate with You know, the most famous thing in Taiwan actually is electronic companies. So we collaborate with those companies to do the smartwear within the wearable gears. So it's not only working on the activewear, but also the long-term take care. This is all the customers that we're working with, which means that we produce the garment covering so many categories, and from ladies, men's, kids, babies, even babies. So we are kind of experiencing all different developing process working with the digital process. And just let me get to the key point, the DPC, product creation. [CHUCKLES] Timeline comes again. So just let's take a look that the very first time when we're using the 3D digital tools is 2006. The reason why the models work, choose to working with us on the 3D is because no one's going to be in pregnant situation at like 7 months forever, isn't it? So it's really hard to find appropriate fitting models at this moment. So 3D becomes a great idea, great deal to be a solution. But I believe that everyone down here all understand that at that moment, like 2006, No matter hardware or software, they're all still got a long way to go. So, like, there's few important moments I would like to bring out is that on 2008, I think our, one of the biggest clients, Target, they got amazing visions, so they just kind of jump in this long journey with, I would say, at the very beginning is Optitex. And if anyone like using the software like before, you will know that the speed-wise or the pattern-wise, the manufacturer need to make at least 2 set of pattern to show the real effect. I'm not quite sure if anyone experiencing that time. That means that fabrication cannot display properly at that moment. So that if we want to make a gown with like Madewell fabric, which is like this body length is 35, but once you put it on the avatar, that will show like 37. But 3D cannot show that fact, so which means we have to make the 37 inches length and then put on the avatar to show the customer what the virtual sample is. So that is kind of double work at that time that wasn't really saving anything. So, when it comes to 2007, and meanwhile, along the time, I think you can see a lot of like big customers join us. And then when it comes to 2017, does anyone know what's happened at that time? And make the 3D all works out? No? I think hardware works really well. The computers, the gears, and everything, and including the graphic card, as Cameron just mentioned that rendering takes long time. So, once the computer hardware pick up and everything goes smoother at that moment. So, as you can see, after 2017, there's lots of like bigger companies is coming join us including all the brands up there. I'm just not going to talk about it all. And this is the timeline that we're working with. So, here's comes to the deal that we're talking about the truth. Before that, let me just talk about what we are working with all our customers in during the process, how we utilize the 3D creations. At the very first is the concept. I believe everyone knows that making a brand new 3D is almost take the same time as making a physical sample. Does everyone agree with that? Yeah, nodding head. Thank you. What's the 3D most valuable part is they can change things really quick, immediately, and you can see it right away. So, as you can see up there, the rolling down zip hoodie, they can be modified to those 3 styles just right away in 10 minutes. You can just have those variations right away quickly. So, that's what 3D can do faster. Next part is that once designer have the design look done, they will say, "All right, let me just nail down into the details." How they can make it, they just look at the 3D and they probably just draw a line onto it and just telling us, "Hey, this is what we want." So, we can just change it immediately. So, this will only take 2 days or within 1 day, so we can just make the revision to you. How long it is going to take in the old days? Probably 1 or 2 weeks, honestly, right? Some people is like thinking about the time, making the sample, arranging the sample yardage, submit it to the office, and wait until TD or designer look at it, have the meeting, and when the comments coming back, the second round comes is about 2 weeks time, but now it's 2 days. So, that's really valuable is that short-term lead time. And once the design was finalized, Here's come to assortment. I think that's the most important part that everyone was looking at it. All our clients, customers, or anyone that work with us, they're all talking about, can I get rid of some of my salesman sample? Can I just get rid of the size wrong or the sample wrong, color wrong? Is that going to be possible? Yes. We can do that quickly by changing the color as long as you have the digital file with a graphic. It's a fast thing. But here's one thing. There's a designer used to ask me that, can I bring out this swatch next to my computer and compare the color, if that correct? Can that be compared? I mean, that's some of interesting question I receive while I'm doing the product developing. I believe everyone here notice that it's not gonna be happens, but What are you doing the product developing with the new technique? Here's always some of interesting questions, but I will just explain a little bit later. And then next part we were talking about is the graphic. I think when the economy coming back, it's all the fancy little work, it was coming back. Especially right now, we have a lot of holidays is coming. So how to manage those artworks? How to scale the prints or the artworks, the prints. So the 3D is really a good tool to work on because the patterns won't change. You just change the artwork, it's right away. And continuously is a drop size. As everyone knows that right now, the garment needs to fulfill not just the core size, not the standard size, but the everybody, all kinds of body types. So drop size right now is a good— idea to use to kind of present all different looks. And continuously, we're talking a little bit about crowdsourcing testing, which means that before anything made, you can show to your customer and let them to decide if they want it or not. So, this is a great tool that you can kind of test the volume online. And then we're going to talk about a little bit Meta, how you're going to use it and then combine it online and offline. So, this is currently how we work with all our customers on the product developing and all kinds of usage. And it comes to a question. Oh, let me just play a little video down here. This is how we collaborate with our brands on Gapless on the graphics. This is our own design. So, as you can see that we simulate the special labels on the printing with all different, like, pop prints, rubber prints, flocking, or embroidery, or foil prints. You might think, like, is that going to happen? We just simulate them all, like, through 3D? Do you think that 3D is good enough to kind of represent all kinds of all the details? Let me just coming back a little bit. Just let it stay at this page. I think probably a lot of people who working with DPC, you might receive the request from your customer and saying that, well, now we— I'm using new fabrication, and now I have a new body, and please use 3D, simulate that out, and I would like to see the new things coming by simulation. Will that be working? Well, according to my experience working in the DPC, that won't be true, because all little construction difference will make the garment different. Like, the seam right now is by overlocking, or is by French seam, or faffel seam. They were all different. The stress, stretch, or the tension, they were all different. So once it's come to the new thing, definitely have to be physical, that we'll talk about later. And when we talk about the special labor, everyone knows that we do need them to make the strike-off to understand the real look. So how we simulate them, and how can we say that's presentable? Brian, can you just click the video again to show that again to everyone? So what we're doing actually is for all the technique down here, We definitely ask a factory to make a strike-off so that we will have the effect on hand, and then we scan the effect into the computer. Also, we're using Visu. I'm not just— I didn't take any from Visu, but that do scan things out perfectly as this way. So we scan the effect into the computer, and then we change the artwork. We take the effect to simulate the artwork, so that was when we called it like half simulation. That's the way that you can just combine the digital and physical. It's more a little bit like technical thing, so hopefully people won't get bored by seeing that. So, that's the technical part. So, above all, like Spatial Labors, about the simple savings, when it comes to the benefit, this is like a typical answer. You might see this page from all, like, software providers. We're saying speed. Of course. I just mentioned 2 weeks versus 2 days. And variety. Of course. Once you've done things faster, you got more times, more opportunities to get more options. And consistency. As we just bring on to the front page that if you start from a consistent block, of course, your fitting will be just consistent all the way. And sustainability, not even mentioned. You're saving all the materials, right? Dyes, raw materials. And experience is one of the things that we learned along, is that, do you know how long you're going to take to train a pattern maker? Like, from scratch? I'll say in my company, it takes 3 to 5 years. Years. Why? Because we're making so many categories, of course, but you really need time to train those technicians. And right now, I believe all the manufacturers face the same situation, is that the experienced masters is going to retire, and where are the next generations coming up? And I'm not helping selling 3D software, honestly saying that, but 3D is a good tool. That you can kind of establish your experience really fast. That's the experience. But every time when I go over this page, my client will ask me, "So, what can we save?" It's always talking about saving, right? So, what can we save? We just kind of general a little bit. Labor, transportation, and material. That's where the thinking can be saved. So, when we talk about transportation and material, During those 2 years difficult time, everyone knows, "Yeah, it's definitely safe." You don't need to send the stuff overseas or kind of re-dye the raw materials or kind of having all the good stock in customs. It definitely saves the transportation and material. But how about the labor? Like, kind of image that if you hire a new 3D specialist versus hire a sewer. Can that be equal? Do you know how hard— I mean, like, some people here, like, definitely experiencing to hire a qualified 3D specialist. It's not just someone that knows computer. They need to know pattern making. They need to know constructions. They need to be computer-friendly and willing to embrace a new technology. So how much are you going to pay for them versus a sewer? So right now, if you hire a 3D specialist and say that she can make how many samples a day, so how many labor you have to cut down to make it up? The labor is going to be cut down? Oh. That's the answer. That's the so far answer. The labor is going down. Especially we still have to buy the really, really expensive hardwares, and also rent, sorry, the software provider, have to rent the software as well. So, that's all the cost. So, every time when the customer coming in and say, "Hey, come on, we're using the 3D. Can we just get some of the sample? We get a lot of sample out. Can we just get cheaper?" I'm telling the truth. No, not at all. Not at all so far. The Y is not going to save. There's some of the tips and tricks in between the flow. That's the answer. Have you ever heard that people saying about digital twins and physical twins? I think the 3D providers always say, "Hey, let's just come and do it and make physical twins. Let me just create it." original sentence from one of our clients. They're saying— let me just read it out— that we need the virtual sample to replace physical sample 100%. And they're also asking us that virtual sample need to be exactly the same as physical sample from developing stage. You probably all heard that what Cameron saying, that how long it going to take to make Digital. Will that be saving? Is question mark. So, probably have to think before giving the orders. Some of the product is not really suitable to make it in digital. For example, I would say functional items, right? It need to be test. So, here's some of the little experience that we generate during the over 15 years using 3D and partner with all our clients. We break it into 3 parts: development, fit, and block library, also continue asset. Development have to be fast, isn't it? We always ask that the manufacturers to get those things done in a week. But asking them to make everything perfectly, and even not sure if that style having the older year, or not even making any physical symbol of the new body and new construction, and you expecting them making exactly as the real one, how can that be possible? So while we doing the developing, can we just make fast enough? We utilize the strengths of 3D. Right? Which is you just see the proportion and the styling. Was that the stitching important? Is that shadow important? Is that base layer important? I don't know. Is it the most important things? It's about the design, isn't it? So, can we just make fast enough to get rid of the simple account? That's one of the things that really need to think of because while the customer asking us to make Every single developing sample same as physical sample. That cannot be fast. If you want it fast enough, I have to hire more people. Buy more computers. And renting more softwares. Adding on the overhead. Ends up still talking about the overhead. This is the truth. That developing need to be fast. And the fit need to be accurate. Of course. And do you think that 3D DPC creation can do fitting at this moment? Is there anyone going to give me a reason? I see somebody's doing the wave. What does that mean? But personally, I'm a technical designer. I'm a little bit strict to what's called fitting. The fitting including all the construction details, and the movements and every little— I mean, the kind of threat, intentions. Can 3D do fitting? No. Not until the day the avatar will do the stretching and tell them, "God, it's— sorry, it's just too tight," right? Until that point, I don't think 3D can fit. So fitting, if we want it to be accurate, It still needs to be the physical sample, isn't it? And then everyone knows that for the fabric, how many physical properties do you have to test to create a digital fabric? There's only 5. Can that represent all the physical data? You can simulate. Again, you can simulate it. But you cannot replace it. That's the deal. And then we're talking about the continuous block. Right now, a lot of the 3D was submitted just one time. So, everyone has to look at the 3D and then the file was gone. That was just so useless. You spent so much money on that, but just put it away without saving it or making another use of it. So, continue to use the bulk library of the existing asset is one of the topic that we're going to talk later. And while we're talking about how to make this faster, and going back to the previous pages as well, I'm going to talk about how to saving, right? This is all about the 3D purpose. How to save the time, how to save the money. And right now, manufacturer actually make everything. Making the samples, making— testing the fabric, and making the trims. You know, we have to just do the 3D modeling things. Will that be fast enough, or to cut down the time? Or actually just increasing the workload? So, that's what we need. We need the mills coming in, testing their fabric, because they know their fabric the best, right? And the trim factories. As well as we need the brands and whoever can talk strongly, push everyone to get into this core ecosystem so this can be digitalized altogether. So just quickly wrap a little bit here is that while we're talking about the 3D, hopefully this is about speed, time saving, and definitely, hopefully, it's a sustainable way. And here's the idea that I would like to bring out to everyone is that 3D is not just a tool. So hopefully that is a virtualized language. So we talk about language, that means you understand and I understand, so that we can talk, that we can communicate. But right now what we're facing is some of our clients, they say, "I'm client, I'm just telling you what to do and you have to do." So they don't know anything about 3D, but they're giving orders, they're telling you to do. Some of the tough works. So, hopefully, the 3D can be a language. Something like Excel. You're sending out this Excel file and people who take it, they can use it. So, that's the 3D what can be end up with. So, that's about a serious part. And let's come to a little bit interesting part is that when we talking about the asset, So once that asset was done, what that can be continued use? Right now, as— let's bring up to camera again. They're just putting the garments on those amazing models and showing into the commercials. Are they just be able to place on those amazing peoples? Or I can wear that on too. So this is some of the ideas that we continuously using this digital asset. One of them is by using the AR, augmented reality platforms. I think, I believe everyone is all aware of the DressX, WannaCakes, Zero10. They're all combining the physical and digital. So all our digital garments, the amazing creations, they can just be matching to the real people and you can dress it up. So probably people will think, what does that— I mean, is that any valuable part that we have to do that? Possibly. Like, for example, my whole life never wear the dress like that. But I can ask DressX, can you just help me dress it on? So it's lifetime. I don't need to buy that physical garment and put in my closet and just stuck right there forever because I probably just dress it one time. But I can buy the digital garment online and ask DressX, to dress it up for me, and I can publish on my IG, "Hey, I got this garment, I wear it up." And probably it's not that amazing garment or any more valuable gowns or special garments. It can be all done. So that's what the digital garments can continue selling. And for the brands, for the buyers, you're not only selling the physical garments, but you also can sell the digital ones. It takes time to produce the physical samples. And you have to produce enough numbers to fulfill your market. But how about the digital garments? You only have to make once, right? And you can just apply all. That's the deal of using it. And the other way is we're talking about digital to digital. When we're talking about AR, it is a digital tool Physical is a digital, right? And the digital to digital creation, I believe a lot of kids right now is all playing with the Sandbox and Roblox. Is there anyone like kids playing the app all the time? So right now the avatar is a little bit look like Lego person or a little like the round shape. So when this market getting big enough, will that be next Facebook or the next IG, so people were working on that. Well, the one day they were thinking that, I think the little avatar didn't look good enough. They probably create or becoming a little bit more like real-life avatar, like this. So, our digital garments, it's got somewhere to go, right? So, right now you can selling your garments across the— platforms. And we just kind of simulating a little bit. It's actually by Clo3D. Just sorry, how come it always sounds like that? So we simulating look like a TikTok. So in the future, probably you just can have the moveset and then just dress, click on those the garments you want, and dress up, and just have your TikTok movie. Will that be possible? I think probably just within these 2 years, that will just come true. So all the digital creation you made, it can be sold online as well. There won't be just one-time digital file. And this is one of the project that we are working with Taiwan famous designer, Jian. As you can see, The garment is pretty much a little bit edgy. Probably you cannot even image that garment on me, right? Probably not. So, lots of people when they look at the garment, it's like, "Oh my God, it's a little bit different. I want to put it on." But this is one-piece garment. This is a limitation piece. How can you put it on? So, that's Zabitol, help the designer creating the digital garment, a little bit cartoon look, so that everyone can just put it on and play with it and move with it. Well, that's good enough. But how about let's use 3D to make, we'll say, the twins? You got the real one and you know what it will look like. You can create like that. So, once we create this 3D, what can be done next? Let me just routing back a little bit. We figure out a few ways to utilize the file, and they can be applied to all different area. We made an app, collaborate with a few famous electronic companies and the designers. So, that's the app that we collaborate with, is that we're creating the avatar that will be the figure in the future. You just do some shape yourself a little bit, and here's all the real garments That's her products that can be dressed on, on that amazing avatars with the digital scene, digital to digital, and digital to physical with the AR can be published. So in this way, all your digital works can be applied. There'll be a continued asset and can be sellable. So this is the digital garments that we made, what they can be. You can put on the avatar you want, you like, and also you can apply it into the app that with the shape you like. And if you really want that garment on hand, you can just put it into shopping bag, you can have it. So there's a physical and digital combination. I think I'm one that's a little bit faster, so I almost finished my PowerPoint. So, if there's any questions, please just bring it up. Okay, so, is it really time-saving if you make actual embellishment and scan it? Definitely. Definitely. Because you know all the factory was located in the East 9th Street. Factory, so we actually need to submit the fabric piece to Oversea and let them do all the works and then coming back to scan it, to have it done. So if today we can have to have a little swatch done like a neighborhood, and we can have a little swatch to simulate it, it's much faster, definitely faster. And you don't need to kind of like go through all the conversations. It's like, how many stitch I want? Or how the detail it is? We can just go through the simulation to make it done. So how accurate is 3D simulation of a layered garment? Garment with lining, and cute jean jacket? Does fabric draping algorithm works? That's the reason why I'm saying it's not going to fit— do the fitting. This is one of the case if today those garments are all made already, and you just want to put them together. Of course, we can simulate them exactly the same. But if this is brand new style, and you try to make them— you try to use 3D software to make them real or simulate them into the real life, It's not going to happen, because you don't know how thick that fabric is. You don't know how those fabric will act to each other. And some of the fabrication will stick to each other, but you won't know until the physical sample was made. So the accuracy of the 3D simulations— oh, the question was just click out. So the accuracy of the making the 3D garments The point is that you need to have the physical one in advance. And while we're doing— saying about developing, this just for styling or for the proportion look. If you want them to look like real, you definitely need a physical sample aside to compare with. So the next one is how accurately 3D simulation of any sketchable fabric— fabric with Spandex Fiberworks. In reality, there is no algorithm to simulate drape or stretch fabric. I think this— I have to invite Claire Fady come up to answer the second questions. But for first questions, everyone knows that in the 3D world, that woven fabric present more obvious than the knit one. Because right now, so far, As we mentioned, they test the 5 physical properties, including thickness, weight, stretch, and what is bending. So the weight and the stretch— the weight and bending actually influence how it draped, but not accurately. And as you know, that the fabric might change by every, like, not probably not 10 grams, but about, like, 20 to 50 grams. How can computer analyze all the detail? How can you test so many fabrications? So, what we are doing right now is we actually establish a fabric library. It's just some of the little know-how from our company is that we only test the fabrics over having the differences over 50 grams. That's the huge differences between. So, we think like if there's only like 10-gram differences, we won't retest it again because it won't have any differences in 3D World. And what's coming out is that we establish a big fabric libraries. So is there any new fabrications coming in, but the swatch is not ready yet? We'll do the filtering through our library to select the sub one. As we know that there's a lot of different fabrications in different softwares, but it cannot cover all. So right now, establish— a fabric library from brand is kind of the key to make this process smoother. I believe that's the way to going forward. And do you really need to hire 3D specialist— specialists that have comprehensive pattern-making backgrounds if 3D is being used for visualization instead of fitting? Well, they don't need to be master at pattern-making, but they at least need to know how to put them together. There's ones that when we just starting using 3D and we try to hire a lot of new fresh coming in, and we found there's one members that they don't even know the front rise need to be stitched together. How those people can use 3D and sewing the garment together? Even this is only for the visual look, but if they don't know the pattern, Some of them don't even know the shoulders that have to be sewn together. They just kind of sew the right shoulder to the left, the back shoulder. So how can that be done? And here's one of the— one of the things that I would like to share is that I'm not saying the younger people is more— is better than at computer, but a lot of our senior patternmakers have difficulties to turn the 3D around. And sometimes when they turn it to the back, they just never get it back to the front view. So, that won't be happens to be a 3D specialist. So, do they need to be really pattern master? No. But they at least need to know how to sort it out. And of course, the construction-wise, if you don't know how to construct, you probably cannot give it a correct stitch or the view onto it. "And on the coast, with your experience, what challenge did you have with regard to labor, and how did it transcend?" I'm not quite understand this question. Is it whoever's got here can kind of explain this question a little bit? What's— is there anyone bringing out this question? It's not here yet? So let me just go to the next one because I'm not quite understand what they trying to— emphasizes. And some is a brand, some brands, Brett. A fresh fit simulation with heat map, the tightness, how affect— oh, that's amazing questions. That, that's really good one because we know that 3D software provide the stretch map and tension map, and they are all relatively numbers. I believe you all understand that. So if today we have the original 3D For example, today we are making a body map— body mapping compression legging. So when you compare apple to apple with the previous fit to current fit, you can obviously tell that how those maps translate the colors, probably from red to blue or to green. You have to compare apple to apple. But those numbers that are listed in the software, they are all relative numbers. Different from those numbers that you test physically, like use a little bit sensor stuck it into the— between the fabric and body. Because as Wei just mentioned before, fabric right now, we're only testing about 5 physics. They cannot present everything. And the avatar is a stiff avatar. It's unlike the human body's soft body. So the action and reaction is different from the real one. So usually, I would say usually, we don't use tension map. We use a stretch map because they represent the fabric stretchability to present how we— how it was stretched away and reflect onto the body. So let me see. OK. So do your customers— there's some prints. Do your customers expect hyper-real 3D outcome of Is there anyone who can explain your question? Yes, some of them. So— Okay, thank you perfectly. And as we just mentioned, right now 3D or the simulation is going to kind of two extreme direction. I was developing go extremely simple, but when we talking about— we— when we talking about try to replace the salesman sample, we want it to be real as possible. So that's the point that we make it as physical sample, because when we doing the salesman samples or advertisement samples, the order has been booked, and we already make the physical sample right down here. We can simulate as is. You know, simulate from scratch out of nothing is almost impossible, but if there's something already there and we just try to simulate it, it's easy, much easier. So, as you see, yes, they're asking us, to do the extremely true-to-life garments, yes, we can make it. As long as there's a model down here, we just simulate it. But while we're talking about the previous cutting, the TAs, the lead times, then that have to be simple. So they go kind of different direction. But you have to utilize it and make 3D do what it's good at. I think I'm kind of repeating what Cameron was just mentioned. Make the 3D do what it is capable of instead of keep on asking them to do something they cannot do. I think that's one of the points. So, is there— yeah, everything? So, thank you for joining today.