Turning Product into Brand with Soon Yu, author of Iconic Advantage

Hey, welcome to another episode of Fashion Made. Today I have the pleasure to be joined by Soon Yu, author of Iconic Advantage. Soon, hello.

Hello, how you doing?

Yeah, very well, thank you, very well. Welcome to Fashion Made.

Thanks, really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you and the audience.

Fantastic. You've written a bestselling book called Iconic Advantage. Obviously, this is all about not just the biggest brands in the world today, but also how this applies to smaller brands as well.

That's absolutely right. This is from everything from— you're right, Fortune 500 brands, but it applies to a pizza parlor in Noe Valley in San Francisco. And it also applies in many ways to how you think about your own personal branding and how you want to become iconic and timelessly relevant with your audience in your career.

Absolutely. I guess the obvious question is why should we be innovating the old instead of chasing the new?

That's right. That's the basic premise of the book. And you see, I spent most of my life, David, actually chasing the new. Okay. You know, when I was at VF, a large apparel company, I was responsible for innovation. And a lot of that was trying to bring in a lot of new ideas into the organization and try to see see them through our 30 different brands. And we had a lot of success, but what I found is that where we had the most success is when we took a lot of the shiny new ideas and instead of trying to go after and create new brands or new spaces, is when we took those shiny new ideas and actually applied them against existing successful franchises. Iconic franchises. And if anything, those one, immediately had more traction, and two, it also was a safer place to try out the new innovation because you already had a lot of built-in momentum. And if anything, it just added a lot of new news and kept that existing franchise even more iconic. And so that's what I mean by saying this idea of innovating the old. Innovation itself is sort of this idea of bringing in something new that is of value. All I'm saying is where you commercialize it instead Instead of just trying to create something brand new, commercialize it against something you already have that already has existing momentum, strength, customers, channels, manufacturing lines, all of that.

Okay. So it's a strategy, obviously.

Yes. Oh, you picked up on the strategy. Most people think the book is a branding document, which there are definitely elements about branding design in it, but at the heart of it, it is really this idea of choices, and choices are all about strategy. And therefore it is, in fact, a strategy of where you focus your innovation.

Okay. It's certainly a good-looking book, and I think that's probably why people think it's a branding document. You know, it's got— I mean, I hope it's not a problem to say— it's got BMW. What are the other ones? I don't have it in front of me.

Yes, BMW. It's got the Corona beer on it in terms of the line and the neck. It's also got the a little air pocket in the Nike Air Max, right? In terms of the air pocket in the sole. And we actually had another version that had the Apple earbuds with the iPod. And so all those are iconic silhouettes that speak to iconic elements that immediately remind people about what that product is, but also what makes that product products special.

Yeah, but the important thing to note there, I guess, is that it's really the strategy behind those products that made them so successful. You know, they weren't successful because they were good-looking, they was— they were good-looking because they were strategized successfully.

Yeah, that's a really good point. Um, that was one of the big learnings when I researched 50 companies that were, you know, taking this sort of strategy of innovating the old, was that becoming iconic was actually a very intentful deliberate strategy. It wasn't something that happened by accident. It wasn't something just because you were around long enough you somehow luckily achieved iconic status. It was a very deliberate strategy to build iconicity into existing products and to continue to keep the iconicity of existing iconic franchises.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, let's focus on your time at VF there. I don't know how much you can tell us about specifics But it'd be interesting to get a little sort of just a few words from you really about how you thought about this when you were at VF.

Sure. Well, you know, one of the big pieces of information that I was able to uncover is just how profitable iconic franchises were within the VF portfolio. Without giving away specifics, let's just say our top 14 iconic franchises in the company represented, let's say, double digits of our— both our revenue and our profit. And that's 14 franchises out of maybe 6,000 we produce. Remember, we have 30 different brands, and each one of those brands had hundreds of product franchises. And so out of 6,000, you would imagine, uh, oh, that only 14 would be worth that much, but they were. And so it was sort of a big aha for us. And the other thing we learned when we were doing our research is that if one of the 30 brands did not have an existing iconic franchise, their general gross margin for the entire business was actually lower than those that actually had a few or a couple iconic franchises. And it makes a lot of sense. If you have iconic franchise, one, it's probably the most profitable component in your portfolio. We call them the cash cows, right? Also, they are probably the highest volume. And the third element that's really critical is they tend to halo the entire brand. And so it's really hard to separate the idea of The North Face and not think of the Denali jacket. It's very hard to think of Timberland and not think of the yellow boot. It's very hard to think of Vans and not to think of the classic checkered slip-ons. All those iconic franchises halo the entire brand and benefit all the other products.

[Speaker] So let's then apply that to a smaller company. You know, it could be the pizza place or it could be a small fashion apparel company. How do you get— does iconic advantage only apply to something when you've got that headline product, you know, that cash cow that's doing well, or can you apply it to a situation where you're trying to develop a cash cow?

No, absolutely. The whole book is actually— well, not the whole book, a good portion of the book is really dedicated to actually how do you create an iconic franchise, and then a good portion is obviously dedicated to once you have one, how do you sustain it. And so I always— I work with a lot of startups. A couple of them are actually fashion startups. Most of them are tech startups, but this applies to any type of startup regardless of the industry that you're focused on. And it's this: most of the startups I work with are either trying to be the fastest out to the marketplace, either the biggest in terms of, you know, scale, or maybe having the best bells and whistles in terms of technology. And I always say, look, it isn't the biggest nor the baddest nor the fastest mousetrap that gets the mice. It's the one with the stinkiest cheese. So from day one, you need to be thinking about what's my stinky cheese, and more importantly, how do I make it as fragrant as possible? What is the story I'm telling about it that makes it fragrant? What is the innovation around the smell that makes it really fragrant? What is the design that also makes it really fragrant? And so thinking about this idea of fragrance, it's really about creating something that stands out versus the competition. And when we looked across these 50 brands and looked across all their iconic franchises within these brands, we noticed 3 things that really stood out about iconic brands and iconic franchises. Whether they were products or services. And these were the 3 things. One, they were highly distinctive. They stood out versus the competition. There's something about it that was unique and memorable. Number 2, whatever that distinction was, okay, whatever they were, you know, uniquely known for and memorable for, it was highly relevant to the audience they want to become iconic to. And it wasn't just relevant relevant today or yesterday, but it was going to be relevant going forward. It was this idea that it was timelessly relevant. And then lastly, they were able to take this distinctive relevance and create universal recognition with the audience that they wanted to become iconic to. So this idea of universal recognition was sort of the third element. And so if you can create, uh, if you can create distinctive relevance and be universally recognized for that over time, I mean, in other words, having longevity, then you become the standard bearer for that distinctive relevance, and thereby you become iconic. So the first step for every startup to think about is what makes you distinctively relevant. And so this applies, like I said, to that pizza parlor. When they thought about it, yeah, we could just be like any other pizza joint in San Francisco, but they chose an iconic ingredient, ingredient that's very synonymous with the San Francisco area, which is sourdough bread. And they used elements of sourdough in the process of making something, you know, rise that's very sour, and applied it in their pie making. And that's how they became really iconic. And the same thing is true for your audience, those who are looking at startups. I was talking to this one handbag company, and I was talking to the founder, and I said, you know, What makes your handbag different than others? Oh, the material is high quality and it's a more reasonable price point and we source our materials from Italy, blah, blah, blah. So it's a really great story but I said, but also is there anything about it whether it be where you source it from that's super unique or your silhouette or even your latch or the functionality? Is there something about it that actually makes it stand out versus the competition that you can then Use it in your communication and that becomes a shortcut for what makes you different versus the competition. So I want to encourage the audience, those who are working on small startups, to really be thinking about that. If you think about, you know, Louboutin, he was, you know, at one point obscure and unknown, but he's famous for high-heeled shoes with red bottoms. Who would ever thought about putting red where you're actually going to scrape it and walk it? He did. And that— it was also a sign that his shoes were a cut above and so special that you would actually be walking on the signature element of the shoe.

Yeah, well, that's it. When you put a product feature as your brand, you know, and often that is— your branding is in your advertising, it's often, uh, it's often a part of your product, right?

That's absolutely right. Yep.

Yeah, so that is probably the important distinction, uh, once that branding then becomes iconic, i.e., as you were saying, you have that universal distinction.

Yep.

Then that's kind of yours. And that's, I guess, you know, what's made Louboutin, apart from his incredibly well-designed shoes, I'm sure. I've never put on a pair, but I'm—

You don't have a closet full of, you know, Louboutins?

If I do, they're staying locked in the closet, very much so. You know, I'm sure that's one of those things that has made the guy, you know, an icon within the industry.

Absolutely.

Is it a misconception amongst brands that success is always chasing kind of what's new? Are people always trying to do this?

Well, is it a— well, I would say this. I think You have to be fresh, okay? And being fresh means that you have to be able to infuse what's new, what's interesting, what's exciting, what's different. But the key to staying relevant— sorry, timelessly relevant— the key to that is being able to marry the new with the old. See, people like components of the old. With old, if they see something that's a signature element that they've seen over time, to them it creates a certain degree of familiarity, and familiarity breeds trust, and trust leads to higher sort of consideration and purchase intent. At the same time, we are all— humans are dopamine addicts, and so we are constantly seeking a new excitement from something fresh and new and exciting. Exciting, right?

So, so, um, whilst being afraid of change.

Yeah. So the key is, can you, can you marry what's most loved about the old and infuse it with what's most fresh and exciting about the new? And that's, you know, I talk a lot about that in the book. The first part of the book talks about what I call noticing power, and that's what we talked about earlier, sort of, you know, trying to create signature elements that you are known for, that you stand out versus the competition. Those are things like we were talking about, like the lime in the neck of the beer for Corona, or the red-bottom shoes, or, you know, how Apple creates a signature experience every time you unveil one of their products. The packaging is in itself sort of an out-of-world experience because it's so beautiful, and most people end up keeping their Apple packages because they're more beautiful than the product, right? So those are all sort of signatures that people will know you for, and that's all about notice and power. But the second The second part is what you're asking about, which is staying power. It's not just relevance today. It's how do you stick around? That is really the key in staying power is being able to marry your signature elements, so that's what you want to protect of the old, with one, new story. You want to be able to talk about obviously how what you're doing is connected to the past and how it's pushing you forward to the future. But people want to know the story because story creates meaning. And then from that, you want to marry those signature elements with new innovation. Nike didn't just stop innovating that little air pocket. They first started off with a small air pocket in the back of the heel. Then they made it cover the entire heel. And then from there, they went toe to heel. And then they did the entire shoe. And then they put in these little power balls that were like super duper buoyant in terms of special air that was put into it, like a gas air thing, and then they put that as a whole strip around the entire shoe. But over the last 30 years, they've continued to innovate that air pocket. And, and so this idea of innovation is the second element that you can infuse with your signature elements. And then lastly, you know, let's go back to Nike. They never ever stopped innovating the design, but in every new design, there's always two signature elements that stayed consistent over those 30 years for those Air Max. One was the logo, and that was sort of the brand signature. But then two, the visible air pocket in the sole has been consistent over the last 30 years. And so those are the two signature elements that they infused. New story, you know, they went into golf, they went into, uh, tennis, they went into all— soccer, okay? They infused new innovation. They, like I said, they went from just that little bubble to the entire shoe to this power strip, and then they infuse new design. You can tell every new generation has new colors and it's very vibrant and they're infusing, you know, different techniques and whatnot in their design. So that's how you stick around.

Yeah, that's the thing. They didn't get bored of that in themselves. They didn't think, oh, you know, have people done this bubble thing? Have we been doing this too long? They're like, no, still today. And it, it shows, you know.

Absolutely. A pair of those and you love them, and you know, you know exactly who it is. You don't have any question. And you know, there's another brand that came out a year after Nike did with some air technology, if you remember the Reebok Pump. Yes.

Oh yeah, I remember the Pump.

But because Nike kept innovating on the air pocket, Reebok could never catch up.

Yeah. But do you think if Reebok could stay true to it You know, I don't even know if there's still a pump around today. But do you think if they just kept doing what Nike did, maybe they'll never, they'll never achieve what Nike did with their shoes?

Well, you know, I think there's, there, I think the idea of what Reebok had was very interesting, which was you could actually customize the level of support you wanted by pumping it, right? Then you, and everyone could sort of, it's kind of like those new mattresses, the Sleep Number ones. right? How stiff you wanna make it. I think what happened is they didn't talk about it necessarily in those terms. I think they were trying to go head-to-head with Nike, and I honestly think if they, to your point, would've really been focused on this idea of customization or sort of personalization, that could've been a whole genre that they could've created. And it wouldn't have been sort of this Air Pocket versus Pump comparison, and they would have been totally talked about in totally different ways. Because for Nike, the AirPod was all about buoyancy and support when you are jumping, and cushioning, because most trainers lose about 40% of their support in the lifetime of the shoe. But a pocket of air never loses its bounce, and that's what was brilliant about that. So I think if it's your point, if Reebok would have focused on what the real benefit of their technology was, and then really tried to innovate around this idea of personalization, that might have worked well.

Yeah, I mean, I guess if Reebok had, you know, they would have been unlocking the value in their existing product base, I guess, if, if they had gone on a little bit more. It's quite interesting when you talk about customization, that's obviously a really huge thing these days that brands like, um, some of your former colleagues at VF have been doing very well at.

Yeah, Vans is a good example of that.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

It really fits with Vans, um, key mission, which is really to celebrate creativity. And, um, I, I personally think Vans is one of the best executions of infusing their iconic signature with their mission engaging the creative community to keep what is old new and relevant. And that is the secret of creating iconic franchises, is that ability to know what your signature elements, to protect them, but then to invite the rest of the world, um, whether it be new ideas, new people, um, new designers, to come in and celebrate the signature elements in their own way and interpret it. And, and what's nice about the, the Vans is that you not only can create your own personalized designs, but, uh, you go on Etsy and basically there's a whole marketplace for people that have taken the Vans shoes and created original artwork with them.

Yeah, I mean, they've just— they really— that's the thing, when you have that core product that's so amazing. You can, you're just giving it to people and like, hey, you can do the artwork now, you know, it's up to you, do whatever you want with it. But you can't do that with any old shoe. It has to have that classic design, you know.

That's absolutely right. And you have to know when you're working with people, what is it, what are the parameters that they can play with and what are the parameters that need to be protected? And that's That's evidence of a company that really understands their iconic brand language. The key to any iconic brand language is two things: what are the signature elements that you need to protect, and then what are the areas that you're allowed to play with? You have to make sure that you understand both of those. You can't just say— the problem with most branding documents is that they tend to be very restrictive. And all they talk about is what you're not allowed to touch and what has to stay in place. What they don't celebrate is, well, how will you then infuse new story, new innovation, and new design into the business? And a strong iconic brand language document will talk about both.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Those two things— I mean, you can't, yeah, mess around with the swoosh.

No, you can't miss one, but you might be able to do some, you know, stuff around the shoe or For example, you know, the classic slip-on for Vans, I'm sure you can't mess with the silhouette. You're not gonna be able to mess with the idea of where the logo goes in the back of the shoe or how it's vulcanized. But the top is a canvas for creativity and they clearly communicate that that's important. And I think, you know, Converse has also done the same thing. I think Converse is a really exciting brand that has a lot of the same elements in terms of, you know, the metal grommets, where the Chuck Taylor logo goes. All of that, I think, is also very well codified. And this ability to bring in artists and other people to come in and reinterpret the brand is what keeps the brands like Vans, like Converse, really exciting.

Absolutely. I mean, this is all really good stuff. Um, I want to get a little bit abstract to end today, Sine. When I was reading about you in the book and everything that it means, I wondered whether this kind of thing can be applied not just to business, but maybe to your, you know, to your personal life as well. You know, you take all the commercialization of everything away, and can this kind of ideology or strategy be implemented in one's personal life and would it be a good fit?

So my simple answer is yes. Let me sort of explain maybe a little bit more in terms of why and how. Why you do it is, you know, let's face it, world's competitive and one of the worst ways to compete is to bring other people down and so I'd never suggest that. But if you can If you're dedicated to improving yourself and you're willing to put in the time, the effort, be resourceful about it, be thoughtful about it, be creative about it and treat yourself as I always say a prototype, a product prototype, then why not be successful from that, right? Why not get advantage because you put in the hours and you thought about it smarter and you were strategic about it? You should be able to reap the benefits. If you're willing to work harder than other people and willing to be more creative and willing to take some risk on yourself. Assuming you're willing to do all those things, then how would you go about doing that? Well, I do think, you know, early on you probably know some things that you like to do. You probably know some things that— of what you like to do that really other people are really either impressed with or really find valuable or really sort of have positive impact on them. And third, there's probably something that you do better than other people. So if you actually have something that you're pretty good at, that people really appreciate or value, that also makes you stand out about other people, then hell yeah, that should be your key point of difference that maybe you create a signature around. I think what happens is most people go through their careers and they— one, they avoid getting performance reviews. Let's face it, no one likes performance performance reviews because what people don't like is the 10 or 20% of the review that talks about your areas of improvement, right? And even though there's this 80% that says you did this well, you did that well, you're progressing here and you're on track there, we tend to fixate on that 20%, which is very human nature, but it's also the wrong strategy. I always say this: look, that 20% that you're not doing well, Take a look at it and take a hard look at it and say, is it to the level where it is an annoyance? Meaning that, you know, if I don't at least get that to a certain level, it is going to hold me back for the rest of my career. And if that is the case, then definitely get it to what I call the bare minimum, but nothing more than the bare minimum to make it not a deficiency. But do not— what happens is people tend to take that glaring deficiency and try to make it a strength. And they, you know, they They take courses on it. They try to make it— they somehow try to flip that into something that was— and they triple down their investment on it. I say do the bare minimum to get it to a level where it's acceptable and it doesn't become a glaring omission or something. Then take your remaining energy and find 1 or 2 key strengths that, one, you love and you enjoy doing and that people really value and triple down on those. And make those your signatures. So absolutely, I think this idea of creating noticing power around your key strengths and then innovating around those. You know, be the nerdiest person around whatever that is that you like. Be the one that goes to, you know, writes blogs about it, you know. Be the person that knows all the experts in the world that also share your interests in this one area. If your big thing is artificial intelligence and you love cats, then why don't you do artificial intelligence for cats, you know, and be the world's most nerdy person on artificial intelligence for cats? And that will allow you to get ahead in your career because you'll be known for something very distinctive that makes you iconic. And quite frankly, it'll halo everything else because right now there's a few billion people in this universe, right? And, and the ability to stand out versus that billion people is is actually going to create competitive advantage for you.

Yeah. Oh man, that's so cool. Thank you so much. Um, so what's next for you soon? Are you gonna— I guess you're not gonna rewrite the book. That would be kind of against, um, yeah, against your major principles, right?

The book's, the book's doing well. And you know, I think somebody told me what's, what's in it is— and what's nice is that it's evergreen, meaning that the ideas here will probably apply for the next 20, 30 years and hopefully apply when my son's my age. And so I think that part is interesting. But to your point, I do, I've been thinking a lot about this idea of not only iconic brands but iconic categories and actually what is the process and sort of pulling apart and reverse engineering what are the elements that businesses have been applying to not only create iconic brands but create iconic categories. So more to come on that.

Awesome. Well, thank you, Soon, and yeah, I really appreciate you coming on Fashion Made today. Very inspirational stuff.

Thanks, David. Bye, gyal!