Virtually Trying On Lingerie at Van de Velde

Hello and welcome to another episode of Fashion Made. I have the pleasure to have Lynn van de Velde with us today. Lynn, hello.

Hello David, I'm really glad to be here and to talk a bit about our experiences and the company.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're going to chat about fit, virtual try-on, in-store try-on, the wonderful world that is fitting clothes. And Van de Velde, I know, specialize in body-tight clothing. Is that how you call it?

Well, yeah, it's a way to say it. We like to call it lingerie and swimwear. So we make— we are a fashion company and we design, manufacture, and distribute women's underwear and swimwear and also sports bras. So we are there to make women feel good about themselves, to support them literally, and we would like to— we'd like to do that in every moment of her life.

Yeah, for those who don't know, Vandervelde have a great reputation for having excellent in-store fit. So that means the experience of going in store and trying things on is very personalized, has a personal touch, and that's something you're very famous for over here.

I'm glad you mentioned it. It's good to hear. So yeah, our main— we have 3 main brands in lingerie: Marie-Jo, Prima Donna for the larger sizes, and André Serda. And our The biggest part of our turnover comes from the offline lingerie boutique. So the independent retailer who is very specialized, whose service level is very high, and who assists the lady that comes into a store and caters her with the different brands and products she has. The fitting room is very important in the store, like the heart of the store where all the decisions are made is the fitting room. And yeah, we are famous not only— we're famous for the quality and fit of our products, but those couldn't be communicated well to our customers without the assistance of a really expertise fitting lady or fitting expert.

Okay, so how do you then, as the whole world wants to go digital, how do you digitize such a personalized process and how's it going in your journey? I mean, how do you start?

Yeah, it's a challenge. What we did is we started researching and hearing from our stakeholders and hearing from our customers. Because we felt that we— to continue to be true to our DNA of our company, we couldn't go online on e-com without offering something that could have this extra experience about fit and comfort. So we're online right now. And we have some low start level or beginning level fit expertise or fit experiences. Like you can do a size quiz online to get your right fit. There's a lot of advice. You can contact one of our fitting experts in the company. But at the same time, we felt that, yeah, that it's not enough for the customer. So in the innovation department of Van de Velde, we started thinking about next steps, and we— the main goal was we wanted to give every woman, every customer, a personalized fitting experience regardless of the channel that she's using. So that means that online, we started working on an online try-on tool to be able to try on the bras that you select and that you see online to try on the bras and see how they work for you.

Okay, fascinating. So how does that work in practice?

How it works in practice is that we, for some years now, we started with 3D development of our models.

Yeah.

And we started 3D scanning our fitting ladies as well.

Okay.

So that means that we have a quite large database of all different kinds of body shapes, breast shapes, and way real natural women look like.

Yeah.

And at the other hand, we have a 3D digital twin of our bras, and we looked for the best way and the best experience on bringing those two together in a virtual— in a tool where you can really visualize as a customer how a certain bra would fit on you.

Okay.

So we, the way we went into that, because there's a lot of technology and a lot of interfaces that you can do that with, we chose as a test, we chose to go for an augmented reality tool.

Okay.

So because we thought, okay, augmented reality wasn't the whole, it was the Pokémon Go craze. I have to admit, we were inspired by Pokémon Go.

A lot of people were.

Yes, so we used augmented reality and in this we made a mobile app for ladies to use in the privacy of their home and where they could create a 3D version of themselves and try on some of the lingerie sets that we provided in 3D as well.

So are the devices actually ready for this AR technology yet?

Not all of them, but as in the innovation department, we start projects that we want to launch not the next month, but that we want to test now and launch like in 1 year or 1 year and a half. So, and because of the upcoming success of the augmented reality in that time, we strongly believed that it was only a matter of time before this technology would be integrated in all different mobile devices. And we have seen last month that it really goes that way, that it really continues to be integrated, that the, um, Apple has this tool in all their new devices. So it's really spreading and it will become, um, yeah, a normal thing for everybody to, to have in their mobile devices.

Yeah, yeah. I guess that's with the better front-facing and back- back-facing cameras as well and the software as well.

Yes, yeah, yeah, I need that.

What I also want to know, you've been testing this with some core customers, some of your core customers, right?

Yes.

How has their reaction been to it?

Okay, yeah, because I think, um, you can't launch a test or do a real good use case without really going out there, uh, even with, uh, an alpha or beta version, go out there and confront your customer and ask her what she thinks about it. So that's exactly what we did. We have— we are very lucky to have a really innovation lab store in Amsterdam, in the center of Amsterdam, that our innovation department can use as a kind of consumer lab to try out all new technologies. It's a great spot there because it's a quite young population in Amsterdam. They are open-minded and they are ready to integrate. They're digital savvy, so they're very keen in, um, yeah, playing with new technology.

It sounds like a perfect place to launch technology for fashion.

Yes, yes, I think it is. Um, and so we launched it there. We organized an event in store and we invited a group of customers that we know have some already some bond or some bond with our brand, so that were already a little bit eager to step into it. And it was— we worked together with a research group of the University of Ghent just to make sure that the way we were testing testing it was a good way to do it and to make sure that the, yeah, the consequence or how you call it, the wrap-up we did after that and the decisions we would make, well, would be based on really objective data.

Okay.

So, and we, there was also an an app developer involved, really, who has experience in user interfaces. So it was really a group effort. It was really fun to work on. And then the customers, of course. And we did a lot of prep beforehand. So it's— it was a working prototype with— we made 3 body types and 3 different sizes, like a slim one, a regular one, and then a more curvy model. And we selected the customers and put them into one of those three categories. And that made it possible to really make something quick and test it quickly with customers without, you know, developing and researching and doing first all sizes and making it work in all sizes and then trying it out with some customers. We did it very early in the development stage.

Okay, so bit by bit, slowly, slowly. Yeah, which I guess is hard because you're coming from a background of such a tailored personal experience where there is no small box, as you just said. Everyone is an individual and get treated as such. And so then try and digitize this experience and then kind of start from sort of square one and then having to create this sort of what we now, in those who consider the world of fit quite archaic, quite old ways of thinking, you know, are you a small, medium, or a large? What we're trying to do is get away from that. But I guess you have to build these building blocks, these digital building blocks, to get to that end goal.

Um, yes, we had to start somewhere, and like I said, we we really selected the people from one size, and we, um, we really measured how personal they found the experience, because that was one of the challenges, you know, to offer something which they thought or felt as really personalized.

Yeah. And how did that go? Did it work?

Uh, well, yeah, they all had a really fun time, I think. So what we did is they they could shop using our app, shop using our app, an AR app. Then they could shop just using the website online, and then they had a real fitting with the shop assistant helping them out, and they could rate the different experiences on, yeah, whether they felt good about it, whether they felt was really personal, whether they really trusted the way they were helped, etc. And we had, of course, we had some positive outcomes and we had a big room for improvement, but that's normal, that's what we wanted.

That's what you wanted.

Yeah, to get very clear how far we were already and what would be the next steps to have something as fast and as good as possible to test again and to really iterate fast.

So when were these tests done?

These tests were done earlier this year, so before summer. It was— we used our summer 2018 collection. For that. So the collection that was in store.

And did you do it across swimwear and lingerie?

No, we— only lingerie.

Only lingerie. Yes. Why? How come only lingerie? Just to keep it again basic and keep that building block, keep it simple?

We had to keep it simple. We had to— for keeping it simple, we had to choose. And it was a bigger challenge for our 3D products and for the the look and detail of them to do lingerie. So we wanted to test whether customers could really evaluate and shop using 3D models, if they were good enough and detailed enough for our customer. And it would be easier to do swimwear, but then we wouldn't be sure because it's only a print and there's no transparency. But we wouldn't be sure when the customer would like it. We wouldn't be sure if the same would work for lingerie. So using lingerie, and when we would have a positive reaction on that, we were quite sure that swimwear would be a piece of cake to do the same way.

Okay, so start with the hard one.

Yes, yes, there we started with the hard one.

Yeah, it sounds like it. Can this technology in a strange way help you get closer your customer?

Well, it definitely can get some more interaction in like online shopping. So the— what's personal is that for the customer, she really feels that, yeah, she's interacting with a brand, that she's adding things, she's asking things, and that she can decide. That she gets some info back that's really important for her.

You empower them with this information, right?

Yes. So that was really, that was positive. We were, we thought, we had some assumptions before we started it, and we thought first that by making the avatar as a real, a lookalike of the person, that that would trigger her interest and that would feel more personal for her. And that was a mistake. That was a mistake. We felt that people were— felt it was a personal experience when instead of making a lookalike avatar, when we could add some personal advice on top. So when we could, we would add some extra interaction with shopping assistant in our headquarters in Scala Ballet, for example, you know, so that she could ask some questions because it's still— it doesn't lift all the insecurities about the fit and how she looks. Maybe she has some questions about it. And when she can add her personal questions to somebody who's listening to that, that adds more feeling of like customization and personalization than having a lookalike avatar. And I mean then like with your, the hair and the color, eye color exactly the same as you are, because it's very hard to get to the level that it's exactly that, that you want to see.

So how did it work when you had those, your person in in your office, your personal assistant, let's call them a digital personal assistant, messaging the person or answering the questions. Did that work well in the trials? Because I wonder if it's almost a slight invasion if you're doing this in your own home. Do you want to just do it alone and not have anyone on the other end giving you advice or answering questions? I mean, I'm just asking. I mean, how did it go?

Well, with customers we tested with, they were really asking to have this option. They were really happy to have it. We added in the first tool, we added this share option, you know, that they could share a picture of their digital self wearing lingerie with their friends and stuff. And we felt that that was harder to sell than just a chat option with a digital stylus. So maybe, maybe that changes in the future with the new generation, maybe, but we feel that we're not there yet. So that's not, that's not what interests them.

Do you think, yeah, maybe sort of Snapchat their friends with a picture of them in their sort of digital lingerie?

I think for a younger generation it could work.

Yeah, I think so. I honestly, yeah, I I, I never trust my own opinion on these things, you know. I trust the mindset of sort of my nieces and nephews and how they think about these things, and, um, they seem to have a very open mind with this stuff, you know. So I don't— yeah, I don't see the future generations really having that much of a problem with sharing this kind of stuff. Yes.

On the other hand, I think we haven't tried it yet. We need to try it because you, you hear as well that younger people they have this new kind of— oh, I only know the Dutch word.

That's okay. What's the Dutch word?

It's like "prutsig." They're a little bit prude. They're prude.

Okay.

And they're not very— it looks like they're confident with their bodies.

Yeah.

And they share a lot and they maybe overshare. But at the end—

In real life?

In real life. Picking out the bra and lingerie, it's still something that they like to have to be, um, yeah, you know, helped with, and, and that they need some, um, support with. And I think that that's not always coming from their friends, that they really like somebody who has the knowledge to help them.

They do like that.

Yes.

Yeah. So you still see— so in your in-store experience, I mean, obviously you still have a great in-store experience as you're as in head of innovation building this new project? I mean, Van de Velde hasn't lost its core competency, of course, of course, right? And so are you still getting lots of young people coming in and really enjoying that personal assistant touch that you have?

Uh, well, it's challenging to get the young people into the stores that we have right now. We feel that we need to change, um, the experience in store a little bit. I don't think it means that cutting out the help and the advice that they get, that's not the way to do it. But to make it more of, to make stores more of like a pilot store where they can experience what the brand stands for, to educate them in a fun way, that's important, more important to them.

Yeah, yeah, that must be such a challenge, you know. Yeah, I guess personal shopping assistants, if I was, you know, 18 to 25, I would think that's not for me, but it's for everyone, you know, really. I mean, it's just a great experience that—

but I think the great thing would be if they don't like it, if they just enter the shop once to get their personal shopping assistant that helps them out in the way they like it, So that they really feel empowered and they have this ideal bra match and they know what it is. And that later on they have their own idea, like this bra idea or shape idea of themselves, which is very unique for themselves, and that they can use that to shop in whatever channel they like because they have the knowledge, doesn't stay with this shopping lady, they don't have to return to this shop, to the shopping lady, to have the same feeling or the same fit that they had there.

So it's knowledge.

Yes.

You empower them with knowledge, and then hopefully they come back because of the quality of the product.

Mhm. And, and the next time they can shop online, and they have this, uh, by entering them their unique code— I don't know, unique code— they see directly an overview. They have a personalized web shop they're there and they see an overview of the, the bras that they can— that we guarantee 100% that will fit them right. They don't have to think about the fit anymore, and they can just browse and shop fashionable items. Yeah, but that's another— that's another project.

You're giving yourself a bit more work now.

No, yeah, we started it, we started it, but the That's one of, that would be a dream, like an omnichannel dream of us that you could, yeah, that you empower the customer with her unique data, that we use our knowledge to get the data to her and that at the end that she can shop seamlessly without any effort in every channel that she likes.

Yeah, I think that's just the most exciting thing about this industry right now. Everyone has a dream. You know, they have their big dreams for their company and how they're going to work with other companies to achieve this zenith, you know, this top of the Everest goal of perfectly balancing physical and digital and technology and knowledge and all of these things coming together to just give people that.

And then you have a good point that we can't do it by ourselves anymore, that you, you use a whole Yeah, I know it's a buzzword, ecosystem, but there's a whole ecosystem of people, digital companies, startups that can work together to make this dream come true.

Yeah, I know, I know, it does sound so cheesy, but I, I don't— to be honest, I really don't care because it's absolutely true. Because I walk around these events all the time and anyone I I speak to, and everyone always talks about collaboration, collaboration. And you know, it's not just about signing contracts and working together and, you know, what are we going to give you and what are you going to give me. It's not really about that. It can even just be as simple as willing to spend 20 minutes talking to someone about an idea or about an idea that they have, and it might give you a different perspective on something or just spark a little light somewhere. And you know, so that's why it's a really important industry to work in right now because— or really exciting industry to work in right now because there's just so many buzzing conversations going on. Um, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I— it's really great. And look, I wish you guys all the best. I hope you, uh, I hope you achieve this.

Yeah, thank you, thank you. I think the event here helps already a little to get in touch with the right people. Yeah, so yeah, we had a very fruitful first day Yeah, get ready for the next.

Linh, thank you very much for joining us today.

Yeah, it was great. Thank you.

Cheers.