Wearable Tech or Techable Wears - with Muchaneta Kapfunde of fashnerd.com

So hi, welcome to another episode of Fashion Made. Today we are sitting in the pod at Pyapow headquarters in London Bridge. I'm sitting down with Mucheneta Kafunde.

Hello.

Welcome to Fashion Made.

Thank you very much.

We've just been rambling on about sustainability and technology and all of the different things in the world, so I guess let's start start there. I obviously saw you speak at a panel earlier on this week, and that was on sustainability.

It was, yes, at Pure.

Yes, at Pure London, which is a great event. Um, tell me, what were some of the things you learned from the panel, and what do you think the fashion industry can do more to help be more sustainable?

What I've learned— I mean, there was quite a variety of people on the panel within, you know, within the fashion space— and what I've learned is that Innovation is something that quite a few brands are starting to embrace, which is a great thing. And also that the conversation has begun. It's all about starting to talk about it first before we can take action. Because for someone to understand what it means to be a sustainable brand is where it begins. Also, you've got companies like Fashion is a Good 4 U who have created an app, which I love. They've got brands on there, so it tells consumers how ethical a brand is. So if it's 1, for example, then it's obviously not very ethical, but if it's a 5, it's amazingly ethical. And these are the kind of tools that Definite, you know, startups are kind of coming up with to help consumers understand what it means to be sustainable and also to kind of educate them. So what I kind of realized when I was on the panel is that it's all about education, all about understanding what it means to be sustainable. Making it cool again. Yes. As Hillary said.

Yeah, make it cool.

You know, make it cool so all the kind of youngsters also adopt sustainable things.

Well, I think that's happening.

I think it's happening slowly. But the problem is with the youngsters, shall I say, they buy a lot. And the whole thing about fast fashion is that we're trying to stop fast fashion. We're trying not to make it such a norm anymore, to make it so when you buy an outfit, you value it, you look after it like the way your grandparents did or your mum did, you know? And we need to be able to do that. So it's all about respecting your clothes, sustainability. And if you start there, that is something. You don't have to go and buy, you know, really expensive brands who are sustainable, because unfortunately most sustainable brands are ridiculously expensive.

Yeah, that's true. One of the things about fashion is trying to be an individual as well, and I guess that doesn't quite marry with fast fashion because they're making so many units of the same thing.

This is true, this is very true, but I don't think people see it like that.

No.

This, this— I think people see a price because I remember once I was on another panel and I, I said to the audience, you know, if you've got £4.99 H&M t-shirt and you've got £7.99 H&M conscious t-shirt, which one would you buy? Most of them bought the £4.99 because their kind of thought was, it's what's in my pocket. If I have £5 in my pocket, all I can afford is the £4.99 top. So I think the solution to that is to kind of eradicate the £4.99 top and then everyone has only access to the 79 top, then you will buy that.

Yes.

You know, so it's not about giving them an option anymore. I think it's about kind of normalizing sustainability and brands taking responsibility and providing us with products that are not harming the planet.

Yeah, absolutely. There's, there's two sides to every story, and I guess it's on the consumer and the brands— the brands to make better, more sustainable products and the consumers to actually be invested in Exactly. As you said rightly during the conference, voting with your money.

Yes, they've got more power. We've got more power as people. We're the ones with the kind of our, you know, fingers in our purse. And if we don't want to spend, they don't get anything. So we have a lot more power to change our shopping habits. But it's not going to happen overnight.

No.

You know, and I, and I'm a big advocate of educating people, giving them the information to make much more better decisions.

Yeah.

So not so much dictating to them like, this is what you need to wear, but more saying, this is what happens if you do this, um, these are the brands you can buy, what do you think? And letting them make the decision themselves.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, for those of you who don't know, um, Muchaneta is co-founder and CEO of Fashionnerd.com, which is an amazing website that I only stumbled across a couple of months ago, but has really given me, as a researcher of the industry, loads of insights as to the future of fashion, especially when it comes to things like wearables.

Exactly, yes.

How long has wearable technology been a focus for you?

For about 4 years, actually, even though it has been going on much longer than people think that it has. 4 years. Basically, I'm from the fashion industry and I love technology. And I felt like the fashion industry wasn't really understanding the kind of the value of wearable technology and the role that it can play in fashion. So I decided to merge the two and write about it. And I know there was quite a few people writing about it anyway, but the way I write about it is for so the consumers can understand. So it's not a lot of zeros and ones, a lot of tech talk that you and I might be like, "Huh? What is it? What does it do for me? Does it come in pink?" You know, all this information that sounds a bit silly, but people really want to know. So we started Fashionhood based on that. Like, let's kind of translate technology in a fashion voice so those who love fashion but also are a bit curious about technology can understand the value it could bring to their life.

Amazing. Well, I've certainly— it doesn't seem to have been just so sort of fashion-oriented because recently I've been seeing some articles on there which are delving a little bit deeper into the technology side. And that's been quite good for me because that's— I'm more technology-focused than I am fashion-focused, as you can probably tell by the clothes that I wear.

You look very stylish.

So I've been really enjoying that, some of the blockchain stuff. What I do want to talk about today is more on the wearable side, though.

Of course, yes.

Yes. Can you tell me what the most exciting thing that— or couple of the most exciting things that you've been researching in the fashion industry when it comes to wearables are?

For me, the most exciting thing at this moment in time, and this is going to sound really strange, but a lot of wearable brands have unfortunately kind of folded. And this is a bad thing, I guess.

Yes.

But to me, I see it as a positive because there's so much you can learn from the mistakes that they made or the successes that they made. Before they folded. And I think this gives startups that are starting now invaluable information about what they can do, how they can do it, investors and so forth. They can learn from these brands. So for me, a lot of people say, oh my God, so-and-so failed. I'm like, no, actually they didn't. They got to a certain point which we never got to that point before. And people can learn from that. So then the next startup can take that information and go a little bit further and understand maybe the manufacturing or the consumer and kind of bring their wearable tech a little bit higher than the other brand did. So I actually foresee the wearable tech space growing bigger and bigger because we are starting to understand what the consumer wants. A lot of startups, let's say 4 years ago, were building for themselves. They weren't building for the mainstream consumer. They were building something that they think that they wanted and needed. They didn't take into account whether Joe down the street would wear it. It was more like, would I wear it? Yes, I would. And this is why a lot of wearables, I feel, didn't quite reach out to a lot of the consumers because they weren't made for them. But now I feel brands are understanding the need to kind of create for consumer and also the need to collaborate in order to become more appealing. So wearables where they were, let's say 5 years ago to where they are now is a massive leap.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, you just have to take a look at the smartwatches. I mean, they're a great example. Remember the first one? It was so bulky and so masculine and so heavy. No one really wanted to wear it. But now if you look at the smartwatches, you've got some for women, you've got some for young kids in their 20s, you've got something for your dad. You know, there's smartwatches for everybody. When 5 years ago, that was not the case. So wearables are evolving and they're not going anywhere. I know people keep coming up with these ridiculous headlines of wearables are dead, but they're not dead.

They're not dead.

You know, we're just beginning to tell the story. We are at the beginning. So like I always say to people, like our first mobile phone, you remember that, it was in a suitcase. For God's sake. I mean, you know, take your mind back, um, or ask your parents if you don't remember that. It was in a suitcase, and we didn't ever foresee that we'd be holding a smartphone. But look here, look what we're doing now. So that's how I always imagine it. You might look at some wearables and think, I would never wear that, but we thought we'd never carry a phone in a suitcase. So now we all have phones. So it all comes down to thinking that we're in the beginning and we're slowly evolving.

Do you think we can incorporate phones into fashion?

Um, yes, because phones are a fashionable accessory. They have been since the iPhone came about, um, and everyone has them, and you can change the color and you can match your personality. So phones are fashionable, but are they going to be something we're going to have in 5 to 10 years? Maybe not.

Well, that's an interesting point, you know. What could replace the phone?

Um, smartwatch. Yeah, I think a smartwatch could replace the phone. Imagine talking into your watch. And if you think about it, if you watch all those like future movies, do you ever see someone holding a phone? Very rarely. They're always talking to some sort of object, some sort of device. Um, I mean, some people that disagree and think the iPhone will be around for a while, but I feel like we are evolving with time. When it will happen, I don't know, but from what I've read and seen, I feel like the iPhone is gonna just kind of slowly disappear.

Do you think we need other new technologies like a new way of typing messages, for instance. You know, the keyboard has been around for a hell of a long time now.

Well, you can— what about imagine speaking your message and having it automatically sent?

Yeah.

Saying, you know, send message to George, I will meet you at 9 PM. Yeah. And it's gone.

So we're looking at voice technology.

Voice technology is massive. Yeah, it's slowly evolving. And same thing with hearables, it's all slowly evolving. Um, but it's It's not something that is being pushed, I don't think, as much. But it's becoming like a big thing. Like my partner, Manu Tinapa, he's massive on hearables. Like he feels like he can imagine women wearing earrings that are actually headphones.

Yes.

And I think there are actually a startup that I wrote about.

Yeah, you did.

Yes. You did.

I read the article about half an hour ago.

Yeah, you did. With a really fantastic earring that kind of becomes an earring and a headphone all at once. And it's for women. And I love those ideas. And, you know, some of these ideas you might look at and be like, oh, they're foolish. But I feel like it's all about those kind of ideas.

Absolutely. And, you know, do you remember the first time you could go on the internet on your phone? It was so rubbish. Like, it was the worst thing in the world. Like, anyone who tried it, WAP or whatever it was called back then. Oh my goodness. And then the first screens that came on with styluses that you had to use. They were so uncool, you know, and then suddenly the iPhone came and people started to realize what you can do.

Yes.

And so I— in certainly voice recognition technology, it's going to create— it's going to need that kind of huge innovation leap from what is there now, which is not bad. I mean, my friends have Alexa and I go around and I'm still amazed by it. From my perspective, because I'm quite old school and not on the edges.

I'm not— you know, I've got Alexa, and I think the idea behind Alexa is brilliant. Alexa herself, not so great.

No, no, no.

You know what it is? There's been times I've been watching TV and Alexa hears the TV and thinks I've asked a demand and then says to me, I don't know how to do that. You know, you're like, I didn't say anything. Shut up, Alexa. So you can see where the technology is going, but it's just not there yet. And what excites me is where it's headed. I see the end of the line. I see like the product at the end. But where we are with kind of voice technology, we're slowly getting there. I mean, we all talk into our phone and the amount of times, let's say Siri gets it wrong or, you know, it's like it just doesn't recognize our voice enough. Or maybe you got an accent or whatever it is, it doesn't do it correctly. Like, what is it, 60% of the time? So I feel like I like where it's headed, but we're just not there.

Yeah. I mean, surely you just need voice technology that then develops with AI. Because obviously—

It learns.

Yeah, it's got to learn you and it's got to be specific to you. Always reminds me of the film Her. Have you seen that?

Yes, I have. Yes, that is a great feature.

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, maybe not that creepy, but still an AI that can learn and obviously hear your voice and develop with you so that—

I think when it comes to AI, it needs to be explained a little better because I think people get scared and they think of AI, you know, we've watched the movies with Terminator and all these different types of things, you know, so we have a visual idea of what it it isn't. So I think people need to understand and not be afraid of AI and kind of see it as a kind of a way of improving your life, making your life easier, learning you, making, you know, all about you in the end. Yeah.

So it's not all evil robots, is it?

I think that's what people think when they think of wearables and technology. They just see the world being taken over, you know? But I'm sure like our great-grandparents or grandparents thought the same thing with the mobile phone, you know?

Yeah. You know, look, your other option is to go and live in a beach hut and that's just it, you know, just live live on the beach your whole life, but what, you're not going to do that.

No, you know, so it's modern life. It's— and it also, it makes the world smaller. Technology brings us all to kind of closer together. It's not so, you know, it's because I split my time a lot between Amsterdam and London, and it doesn't seem like such a big gap for me because of technology. And it plays such a key role in our life, and I don't think it's a bad thing, you know. But what it all comes down to is this choice. You can choose to use it, or you can choose not to use it. But I think it's very wise to educate yourself in wearables. To be aware of what's out there. I mean, one thing I am very excited about is the merge of medical wearables with fashion. So I can imagine a jacket that can maybe take your blood sugar and if you're a diabetic and tell you, like, hey, you know, you need to kind of check your blood. Or imagine, like I said, the hearables when you've got a hearing aid but more fashion like an earring. So no one can actually tell that you got, you know, hearing problems because some people like to hide their disability. And this is an option using wearables to do so, not to be so visible.

Yes.

So I kind of I can foresee a world where it will make our life easier in terms of medical as well.

That's a huge market as well.

Very big.

So, you know, one of the things with all of this is we're all in business at the end of the day, and things have got to be commercially viable. You know, full credit to those people who have tried and failed, the startups, because they are also helping us pave the way for the future.

They are indeed, yes.

But I guess an innovation is in my mind, really only truly innovative if it can be— if someone uses it. You know, it's much like if a tree falls down, does anyone hear it if they're not around? You know, is an innovation really innovative if no one ever uses it? So companies have to make these things commercially viable. And I think that in that particular space, in the wearable medical crossover industry, there is huge amounts of money being put into that because they see the light at the end of the tunnel commercially?

It's a potential. Imagine, you know, not having to be hooked up to machines and everything. Your gown tells you everything to the doctors. You can walk around the hospital and all your vitals are checked and everything. You know, this is something that has got a lot of money in it. And I foresee a future where we'll be able to kind of use a lot of the wearables and technology and so forth in the medical field.

In your research, have you found anything that you thought, wow, that's super cool?

You know what? They're super private about everything.

Yeah, I bet.

My God. You know, a lot of people I think people, especially like the medical, obviously military, and sports, they do keep, they play their cards really close to the chest. Naturally, you don't want anyone stealing their idea or going running with it. So they can be pretty private. I mean, there's been a few companies that I've contacted and asked for press releases and there've been really like no response.

Really?

I think I had one that was saying, "We're working on a project, but we will inform you in due course," or something.

Oh, all right, shady.

I might need to get investigative. Journalist.

Yeah, yeah, but deep undercover.

Yeah, they are, which I understand because, um, you know, they don't want their information out there. They want to protect it. They want to make sure that they're the ones going forward with it first. So I get it. But I have got my very kind of my eye on them. I've got my eye because I think it's very fascinating, um, type of technology that they're all developing in that space. And I think fashion will play a role in that too, um, But in terms of wearables in general, um, I do feel like we are slowly finding our way in the dark.

Yeah. What can provide the light in that room?

Consumers. Yeah, they need to buy it. Um, but the problem is with wearables, they're either too expensive or too hard to manufacture, and that's why most of the companies go down, because they can't manufacture the product at a good price, or they can't offer it to consumers at a good price. Because if you've got £200 spare, would you spend £200 on a company you've never heard of, or would you spend £200 on a Gucci? So, you know, people— that's how consumers sometimes think. I don't know you, so why would I spend that kind of money? So I think when it comes down to it, we need to find a way of creating affordable wearables so people can try it out, and then if they really kind of enjoy the product, they can then, you know, buy a much more expensive product because they believe in the brand. But if you will not buy a £500 bracelet.

No.

You know, I won't buy a £500 bracelet. And I love wearables. So for me, it's like consumers are key and we need to be able to appeal to them.

Yeah.

You know, and there's a few problems with today's wearables at the moment. For example, let's say I'm not going to mention any brands, but there's a brand that unfortunately folded, but people still have the product. And because there's no updates, the product doesn't work anymore. So what now? You know, so it's kind of those kind of problems that I think a lot of people that I spoke to, because I wrote about the brand and I spoke to customers to see their kind of their thoughts behind it, and most of them were super angry and they were like, I don't believe in wearables anymore. I'll never wear it. I can't believe I spent that money. I think it was like £200. And, and I felt like this is kind of once people have a bad taste in their mouth about something, they very rarely come back.

Yeah. Absolutely. It takes a lot to win people back.

Yes, exactly. So when I was talking to the customers just to get a much more round overview of the whole company and what happened and what went wrong, I was really sad with them all. Like, majority of them said that to me. They're like, nope, we're not gonna really buy into all that anymore. And it was sad for me because I was like, the fact that you got them on board in the first place and then suddenly now they're like, hell no, we're never touching Wearables again. I was a bit like, oh, okay, exactly. Come back. Yeah, so, so yeah, I mean, that is sad, but what we need to do is bring brands on board, bring consumers on board, and it's the brand's responsibility to do that.

Yeah, okay. What about headsets? So, AR/VR headsets, mixed reality headsets, the company obviously Magic Leap who are making this headset is going to come out later on this year. They say it's going to change the world. Yeah, absolutely. But when that leap does happen and that huge iPhone-esque innovation does happen in headsets, and it will happen, it will happen one day. It might be next year, it might be in 25 years, it might be in 100 years, but one day it will happen. How can that be incorporated into fashion? And, you know, is it going to be— are we looking at sort of Tron-style?

They need to be smaller. No one's gonna walk around with big things on their faces. I've tried them on, they're heavy. Yeah, my nose was getting squished, they were so heavy. Um, but I think they need to manufacture them in a smaller scale. But that being said, um, one of our contributors wrote an article, I think her name is Moultrie, and she wrote an article about them being used in education. Yes, imagine in sustainability being able to wear and being able to visit a factory in China and you're based UK, or you're able to visit certain parts of the world where your product's been manufactured and physically kind of be there in a way but not be there, and, um, using it in that way. So new designers are kind of— are able to be responsible, more responsible when it comes to creating their products. And I thought that was a really good idea, um, to use these kind of tools in education, you know, to introduce them as part of the curriculum. Um, but in terms of having one at home I don't really see that in— not, not now.

No, no. So that's— yeah, I mean, we've just getting used to iPhones and this kind of screens in our lives as well. I think that's an extra added layer of, you know, and you're just not being very sociable and you've got your headset on in the corner of your room, sort of parents telling their kids to take their headphones out of their ears, you know, the next day, sort of take those headsets off.

He's always in there visiting Moo World and come back to us, you know, that kind of— no, I mean, I kind of see maybe people who can afford it having it in their home as a something to play with, something to enjoy. But in terms of like the general home— but then I could be wrong, could be like the iPad. We all thought the iPad was something that I— I know I did. I thought it doesn't ring, why would I have it, you know? I think that was everyone's point, you know. So it could be like an iPad where we don't really have much use we end up having it in our life and we can't believe we ever lived without it.

Yeah.

So it could end up being that way, but—

So an additional technology rather than a replacement technology.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And I think we need to stop chasing the iPhone dream. You know, iPhone happened. You know, no one's going to have another iPhone. This is the way it is. I think we need to think about having something completely different, stepping away from that. Because a lot of startups chase that. They want to be the next iPhone. They want to be the next Apple product that's hot and everyone wants. But that's just not the way things go.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that only came out of 30 years of, you know, a lot of smart people coming together and designing and refining.

Exactly.

It wasn't like 6 months and then they weren't a startup thinking, oh, let's create a new phone, you know. And they failed a lot. And that's the thing, you learn from your failures.

Failing is not a bad thing when you're a startup. That's why I said one of the big things I loved was that the startups that failed teaching the next round of startups how to go forward and paving the way. So failure is not a bad thing, but you can't be the next iPhone. Like I said, it's an impossible dream.

So what can you be?

You can basically be something that I will find useful. Mm-hmm. Create a wearable that is useful to me, makes my life easier, and I think then you're onto something.

So you would always recommend to start with a function?

I would say start with the function. I know people always say start with fashion first and then function. Later. But to me, I think function is first. Um, think about your customer. Do we really need to know our heartbeat? What do we do with that information? Okay, it's this much. Okay, what now? Like, think along those lines. Like, what do we need as consumers? What's the majority of people looking for to make their life easier? And if you find that, that pot of gold, yeah, then you're on to something, you know?

Absolutely.

You know, and also data is a big thing. Be aware of that. People are very very suspicious of giving their information, especially my generation. Um, yeah, younger generation not so suspicious, but my generation, we're like, what do you need my name for? What do you need my age for? You know, we're very kind of like, would you want that for? You're going to create another person? You're going to steal my identity? Um, so that's a big problem is data protection, and that's where blockchain comes in.

Yeah, yeah.

Lumi have come up with a great, um, product that allows the consumer to remain in control of their data. As opposed to brands using their data to make money off it or whatever.

I guess in that regard, it's not just what tech can do for us, but what we can do for technology as well. We have to give a little bit back to have this. Yeah, we do have our lives made easier by it.

It has to know us. Unfortunately, it has to know our ins and outs the same way when you're searching something online, it has to know you in order to give you like suggestions of where you want to visit or prices that have gone down on this item that you happen to be looking at 2 days ago. You know, it's learning you, it's learning your habits, and therefore it'll be able to serve you better.

Yeah, absolutely.

Which is not such a bad thing. I think as long as nobody's taking my identity and creating another Muchenetta, I'm okay with it to a degree because it is making my life a little easier, you know, a little lazier, but easier. Convenience is great, but it is making us a little lazy.

Yes. Okay. So finding that balance as well.

It is about finding that balance for sure.

Absolutely. With everything. Well, look, thanks for joining us today.

My pleasure.

It's been a fascinating chat.

So thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Pleasure.

Everybody get up.