Why 3D Is Just Getting Started | Adobe, Michael Tanzillo | PI Apparel

Hello everyone and welcome to another Seamless interview. Today I'm excited to be joined by Michael Tanzillo, an industry veteran whose journey spans blockbuster animation, cutting-edge product design, and the fast-evolving world of 3D tooling. Now head of 3D tech artists and solution consultants at Adobe Substance 3D, Michael is also the founder of the 3D Artist Community, where he's on a mission to help creatives unlock the full potential of their skills across many, many industries. From pipeline precision to creative storytelling, Michael brings a cross-industry perspective that's as thoughtful as it is empowering. So with all that, Michael, thank you for joining us today. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Thanks so much for having me. That was a great intro. I love that. That's great. Thank you so much.

Absolutely. So, Michael, I know you and I have met in real life, but I think it's been a while since you've been at one of our Pyaparole events. But Adobe, of course, always comes and it's always great to have the team there. You guys always have a great booth. Which is great.

Um, yes, I made the mistake of hiring incredible people in the cities where PI Apparel is hosted, and so they get to go and I don't get to go as much anymore.

Well, fingers crossed we could get, get you back at some point soon. It'd be good to see you again in the flesh. Um, so let's jump in. Uh, for starters, for those of our, uh, readers who perhaps don't know you, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and how your career path has led you to where you are today?

Yeah, so I am a— I was a trained— well, I started off as a photographer, and that led into me doing some visuals for books. That led me doing some, some early 3D stuff in the early 2000s and teaching myself things on Cinema 4D. And then I watched a— I got the DVD through Netflix, uh, Finding Nemo. And on that DVD, there was a behind the scenes of these artists going scuba diving off the coast of Australia. And they were, they were— and they defined the look of the film. They said, you know, when it was They helped when the fish were out in open ocean and everything was happy, the water was crystal clear and blue and lovely, and as they got closer to Sydney, it got darker and murkier and more intense. And I love this idea of being able to tell stories visually. I had no idea that that was a job. I had no idea that anybody did that. So I went to grad school in Savannah, Georgia and studied visual effects and then got a job as a lighting artist, which is what those job titles of those people who were doing that were. Working at a place called Blue Sky Studios up near New York in Greenwich, Connecticut, in White Plains, New York. And we made the Ice Age movies, 2 Rios, Peanuts, Five in the Skies, and most recently the film Nimona. And so I worked as an artist on animated films for 13 years. And that's kind of what I thought my life as a 3D art— as a creative professional was going to be. I thought I was going to be working in entertainment. And then unfortunately, That studio shut down in 2021. And I was kind of like looking to what I was going to do next. And I talked to a friend who worked at Adobe and said like, oh, you should, you know, we have this demo artist position open. And I thought at the time, oh, this is great. 3D is entertainment, it's video games, it's all, I'll expand my scope a little bit. I'll talk to a couple more companies, make some connections. It was a 6-month gig. And I was like, I will, and hopefully this will help me land something more permanent. And I got to Adobe and I talked to zero video game companies. I talked to zero entertainment. I talked to almost no— and I started and I realized because I had been so in my own little world of just entertainment that I didn't realize that 3D was being used in apparel design and fashion or product visualization or automotive as much as it was, because I've always thought of it as producing these beautiful final images and not as much as being a product that could help in the design process. And after a couple months, I was just, I mean, I was like, I was learning all this new information. I mean, when you work somewhere for 13 years and you get laid off, like you have this terrifying thing, like, can I do anything else? Like I have all this knowledge from this place that doesn't exist anymore and that nobody needs me to know. And I like, but I found out pretty quickly that I still have a youthful enthusiasm for learning new things. So I just, I allowed myself to be naive and about these processes and especially the apparel design process. And really kind of dove in and it exposed me to all these new opportunities. And so after when the 6 months was finishing up, I, you know, I had the opportunity to go full time at Adobe and then took on this role where I'm leading the team. And so now there's 8 of us that do that. We're basically consultants that work with companies on their 3D workflows. And we, I, we have some— I've been just the most incredible team of artists sprinkled all over the world who help help companies with this stuff. So, um, yeah, that's, that's how kind of how I am and how I got to be where I am today.

I love it, a fun ride. And I love that, uh, Finding Nemo was the film that, uh, inspired all of this. It's a great film, so I can see why.

It's absolutely, um, it's absolutely— yeah, it's a, it's a beautiful, beautiful film. And again, it's just It's just so simple because I've always wanted to tell stories visually. That was always like the thing that I really like. That's what I liked about photography. It's what I like about still what I do. And it's what I like about when I bring what I individually bring to the design elements. Like, I know all this other stuff, but when I'm a creative professional, I love crafting the color and the scheme of a look. And like I said, it's in product design, it's in fashion design, it's in everything that you do. In logo designs and labels and branding. It's like, I just, I, I, I eat that stuff up. Great. Yeah, I love it.

Well, let's talk a little bit about, uh, the 3D Art Artist Community that you, uh, founded, because you— we are going to go on onto it a little bit more in detail in a bit. But, um, because our community is of course from the, uh, fashion, apparel, footwear side of things, um, the term or the title 3D Art artist, I don't find it is commonly used in that industry. And I'd love to know, why do you think that is? And should it be a title and role that brands start embracing more?

It's an interesting one because every, every industry is kind of coming at 3D from different angles. I joke that it's like we're all these ancient civilizations, like on separate islands, and we've all developed like language and religion and ceremonial burial and all these things. But like we— but it's all kind of done differently. And fashion and apparel is the same way. It's like because they came through 3D with these traditional design workflows and then instituted the 3D elements into those design practices. So it's not— it's like a digital CMF designer or something, you know what I mean? As opposed to a 3D artist. So I actually don't necessarily think that fashion needs to change their titles. I mean, maybe if they want to recruit, if they want to connect more people, because the biggest problem these days with job titles and, and, um, hiring is that people need to search for the job title and like it's a two-way street. So everyone, there needs to be some commonality of language there. But I think that 3D is becoming more and more just part of the process. Like the same way that a fashion designer wouldn't call themselves a 2D artist or, you know, it's like it's just the tool to make the thing. So I'm, I'm fine with it. I think it's just everyone needs to have a better understanding of what everyone calls things so that we can, we can come together with a common language.

Absolutely. And, and, you know, you mentioned that you've worked across a lot of different fields. So entertainment, product design, obviously apparel and beyond. How do you adapt your creative lens when approaching industries with very different timelines, cultures, and outputs? And have there been any common threads that have surprised you between them?

Yes. So the way that I approach it is I, because every company, even when they're in the same industries, every company has different problems. Like even if you're talking to a footwear company and you're like, you know, at Nike, I've seen them do this, you know, like they're like, well, we're not Nike, we do things differently. So I treat every customer and every opportunity with like an open curiosity, enthusiasm, and like I said, just being an open book and really listening to them and the struggles that they have. There are common threads across things, The biggest one that I see across industries is a siloing of departments and groups across the business. So I do a lot of work with larger companies, but this is true even in smaller places too. So you have, you know, somebody who will, like in the apparel design, it'll be, you know, somebody will, you know, like a pattern maker will do their thing and then it's like somebody else will build it in CLO and then, then it gets, you know, a tech pack gets created and it gets sent to the manufacturer, and then the 3D files just kind of fade away. And then all of a sudden, but it's like, if you can, the commonality is like people who can tie together all of these workflows across the entire process. And, you know, the design elements feed into the 3D software, which creates these elements, which can then be later used in like marketing and pushing things out to the customers. Because a big, and again, this is an apparel-specific one, is that The tools were designed for the design process and not for visualization at the back end. So when executives see the design, they're like, that looks great, but we're never going to show that to the customer. And they don't understand that, like, if you just make some tweaks and, like, you know, change this material and use this renderer instead of CLO, like, you can make photoreal stuff. And it's totally understandable because so much work, attention, and detail goes into physical material that they're scared because it's the problem with 3D. It's like when it's done really well, you don't notice that it's 3D, right? Like, you don't— like, because they're like, oh no, I know a 3D thing that looks like a video game. We don't want our stuff to look like that. It's like, well, everything on the IKEA website is 3D too. And they're like, wait, what? And it's like, so there's, there's, um, there's, there's a little bit of, uh, uh, an understanding. So I think the biggest challenge is just piecing, you know, allowing different 3D workflows to help a business across. The entire spectrum of what they do.

Absolutely. And it's so funny because just before you said IKEA, I was going to mention them too, because I remember them coming as a keynote speaker to one of our European events years ago. And I remember them saying every single thing on our, our website is a digital rendering and everyone's jaws dropped and they were like, no, it can't be. And they were like, no, 100%. Like, we either design it in 3D or we scan it and we create a 3D render like that, like every single thing. And I do think it's a real missed opportunity in the apparel industry that, you know, these amazing assets are being created, but they're not being extended across the value chain. And I think way more needs to be done with that, because then also you get better ROI as well, and there'll be a lot more benefits too. But we'll get there, I hope, eventually. Um, but we'll see.

Yeah, I— yeah, and it's one of the— I mean, I mentioned IKEA too because they, they mentioned it publicly. There are a lot of other companies that are doing it who don't mention it publicly that, that do it. And I wholeheartedly agree. I think Hugo Boss in the fashion space is really forward with what they've been doing, and they're one of the leading ones. But yeah, I think we'll get there too. It's just going to take— no company wants to be the guinea pig. No company wants to be the first one through the door. They all say they want to be innovative, but they kind of don't. They want a tried and true, and it's totally understandable because they don't want to fail. They don't have time, space, and money to fail at things. So I think I think it makes sense. But yeah, we'll get there soon though.

Yeah, I hope so. So from your vantage point across all of these sectors, what industries are you seeing being the most experimental at the moment or forward-thinking when it comes to the use of 3D tech?

Footwear, probably. I would say footwear is— they are doing so many cool things in using 3D in their— not only in— because they'll use it to design the forms of the shoes. There's a lot of 3D printing to avoid prototypes being built at manufacturing centers and shipped and everything. So they'll just have a 3D printer in-house to do their early design iterations. So again, these normally would be 2D designs that were sent to a manufacturer, sent back to them, and then and there would be inevitable, you know, undisclosed 3D things that they didn't see in the 2D design. So instead of doing that, it's like, build it in a 3D application and then print it. And you don't necessarily need the detail of the material. Like, of course it's gonna be plastic, whatever the printer is, but you still have the form of the 3D, you still have the colors, you still have the basics of it. And they're able to speed up their stuff very, they reduced time on their iterations and also like environmental impact and the cost. And like, you'd be amazed at how much companies spend on just shipping things on a boat. It's nuts. Yeah. And then, but they, I've seen so many footwear designers who have used just wild materials and wild inspiration in their designs. And I think that And each company has these like forward-thinking design groups that I don't see in other industries that are thinking about like what product they're gonna make in 5 to 10 years. And they come up with like the craziest stuff and it's like, man, those jobs are insane. So a lot of it is the history of footwear design and how it's kind of like a thing. But I would say they've got the, they're using 3D as a design-first tool in a lot of companies, which is really cool.

Yeah, nice. We actually, we launched our first footwear-specific event earlier this year. I'm trying to remember if Adobe was there, but it's Stride in Portland.

Yeah.

And it's a community that I dipped my toes into as part of our broader apparel group. But obviously, especially nowadays, I think the two worlds are very far apart. I think when we first launched, footwear seemed to be way more advanced than apparel. But I think with the emergence of CLO and Browzwear and all of those tools, it's really kind of tipped on its head. But it was amazing. The the energy in the room from the footwear crowd was amazing. I think they're doing such cool things and there's this real thirst for knowledge and change and a lot of them are real champions at that. When I think within a lot of brands, especially since the pandemic, there's been a lot of pushback on it. But yeah, it was, it was an amazing event to be at and I can't wait to do it again next year.

And one of the things like, like talking about connecting things and this is just a really random one that I've seen is that, you know, because I've worked with automotive companies and I've worked with footwear companies, You'd be amazed at how similar their workflows are. 'Cause like, yeah, especially from a CMF designer standpoint, like it's the same basic materials, like soft goods, people come in contact with them. Like the touch feel is so important for like the brand identity and the quality of the customer experiences. The overall form is kind of like, there's similarities in that they both have to have performance with style and there's legacy built in. And like, it's really interesting 'cause again, I'm at this vantage point where I'm like talking to these companies in the same day. I'm like, wow, you all are approaching similar problems similar, yeah, similar situations. It's really kind of fun to see. So yeah, if you're in footwear, like, you know, you're not that far away from designing cars, I think.

Yeah, 100%. We had one guy called Brett, Brett Goliff, a shout out to him. He was one of our speakers, but he was at GM for a long time and then they brought him into the footwear industry because of exactly that. There is a huge overlap in it. And a guy that I was talking to as well from Camper was from the automotive and railway industry. As well. So it's amazing to see that kind of overlap, and it makes a lot of sense. Um, I wanted to ask, many industries see 3D as just a visualization tool, but you often speak about storytelling and the artistic intent. How should we be elevating 3D beyond just functional functionality and into something strategic and something that can, uh, resonate on an emotional level?

Yeah, I think it's all about, again, if you, if you're able to carry your 3D asset from the design process and finish it with the photoreal version of it, then your possibilities of content creation for marketing and for storytelling and everything is just kind of limitless. Because especially with what we do at Substance, it's like our goal is to help you make these photorealistic versions of whatever things you're making in the real world and then being kind of like your central source of truth for it. So you can put it into different rendering engines or immersive experiences or virtual try-on stuff. People are experimenting with that. I just think that like once you have it, then in, in this 3D space where anything is possible, like you can build anything around it, you can look at it from any angle. Um, there's a great guy named PJ Richardson who runs a company called Laundry VFX. It's a motion graphics visual effects company based in LA. They did, um, they did a visualization with a— I think it was a pair of Jordans. I might be getting the details in this wrong, but it was like They took this 3D asset and then— and because they just do like wild and crazy and weird stuff and they were able to like do these like extreme zoom-ins with these super wide-angle lens and getting this distorted angles at it. It was like, because it's just allowing companies to make dynamic content because there's so— I mean, we're just all overloaded with like visuals and marketing and banner ads and like everything all day, all the time that the ability of 3D to give you the opportunity to make unique visuals, something that you can't replicate in the world, allows it to stand out and do kind of crazy things. And again, like something in footwear, like go on Behance or go on whatever and look at some of the footwear visuals that people are doing and like the exploded views and stuff and like all of the different things. And I think, and that's another part of it too, is that you're, because you have this thing that you can, you know, do, you can make it float and like allow the parts to, like you're allowing your team to really talk about the individual details that go into whatever it is that you're making, the quality for fashion and apparel brands. It's a lot of like how things are ethically sourced or where they're coming from or like, It allows you to outwardly put all the detail that you put into your product and allow you to communicate that in fun, creative ways. I mean, I think IKEA is— I have no idea. I have no idea if they're doing anything like this, but IKEA is great about putting their 3D content on their website. But the next step for them is how do you translate that into your instructions to put in your furniture together? You can make immersive experience. You make it so I can put on a pair of glasses or whatever, and it tells you like, oh, that's part C, put that in there. And it would be a heck of a lot easier than the diagrams that they have to use now, because they can't use words because it goes to every country and there's language barriers. So it's like, I think, because once you have this version of your thing as a functional 3D asset, it's just, there's limitless potential of how you can, it's just like up to your creativity of how you want to display that and share that with the world.

Absolutely. I have failed an embarrassing number of times to put together a piece of IKEA furniture. So I for one would vote for that. That would be great for me. I'd love to talk about 3D adoption and scaling. So I'm sure you've seen teams at various stages of 3D maturity. When it comes to scaling a 3D initiative, what have you seen tends to make the difference between those that plateau out and those that thrive?

Support of the creatives to learn the process is the biggest one. I think companies don't understand. I mean, and justifiably so, I'm not like blaming them. There's a learning curve when it's coming to 3D. 3D is levels or two more complex than 2D stuff. Like, just look at the layers inside of Photoshop. It's like you've got these layers that are all just like color-based. But then you look at the layers inside of Substance Painter, it's like you have to deal with the color and the roughness and the metallicness and the height information. And it's just— and there's a learning curve to that. And the companies that I've seen that are successful are the ones that are giving— understanding that it's a process and giving their creative professionals the space to learn this and to work with and to grow into it and to allow it— allow that to happen. If not, a push-button solution. It's not a— it's, you know, it's something that grows over time. So I think that companies that, you know, and that's one of the biggest things with my job is giving companies realistic expectations and on the change management around this stuff. And so it's like, yes, you can save all this money. Yes, you can save all this time. And that's your state. And we're going to help you get there. I've got, you know, people on my team that'll do training and stuff, but understand that, think that it'll take the, you know, like, let's start small with a couple projects and then we'll grow it out from there. But I think it's understanding that transition. And there have been a couple companies that have been like really phenomenal. Like Patagonia is one that's been so supportive of their teams converting to 3D because they recognize, like, again, the environmental impact of designing in 3D versus all these like wasted materials and prototypes and things like that. So taking a longer approach at it.

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I do hope that the change management piece is something that can improve on the whole. We've been talking about it at our events since day dot. I mean, the reality is, is that it's keeping us in business, which is great, but obviously it would be great if at some point there's somewhat of a more silver bullet solution. But talking of Patagonia, I want to talk a bit about sustainability because obviously they're a champion of that. We saw when 3D first became super big that sustainability was like a leading narrative in why people would adopt it. Fewer samples, reduce waste, everything you just mentioned. Do you still see that that story is landing with leadership today or has it shifted? And if it has, what narrative tends to move the needle most effectively these days?

Well, it's an interesting one. I'm going to be 100% honest with you on this one. So I think it is still moving the needle, and I think that because companies want to make a promise to their consumers that they're making an environmental impact. And like, but how do they actually do that, right? There's so many limited— there's this goal and a desire to do it while— there's a goal and desire to do it, but in order to do it in most instances costs money. And it will cause the price, the cost of the product to go up, which they don't want to do. And the cost— like, somebody's got to incur the cost of these additional, um, uh, environmental gains. And 3D allows them to do that without losing money and actually saving money on it. So it, it'll— it's because, like, we'll— because they, they'll, you know, lots of times it'll be like, I'll be talking to them and, like, start to list out the gains and say, you know, like, you'll save this much money on shipping, you'll save this much time on your design process. Also, you'll save this much on your carbon emission, your carbon footprint on this. And they'll say like, oh, because they don't always necessarily think about that first because they're just trying to keep— and again, I'm not blaming anybody. They're just trying to keep people employed. They're trying to keep the lights on. They're trying to run their business. And I think it's a very noble thing what they're doing. But then when you also tell them that, like, in this process, you can also fulfill some of the promises that you have about reducing your carbon footprint, That's when they're like, yes, that. But it's not that many companies are leading with that, is what I'm trying to say. I think it's a lovely benefit to have, and it's definitely like an exclamation point at the end of the sentence, but it's not their A1 priorities in this world of weird tariffs and global disruption to supply chains and just unknown everything all the time. They're just, again, just trying to keep customers happy, keep the price down, keep their employees employed, and keep the lights on. So, and if you can say, and so that's where a lot of the focus is right now.

Yeah, that makes sense. One challenge that we often hear at our events is, you know, people saying that we either started experimenting or we've rolled it out, but it's stalled. And mainly it's because they haven't been able to build cross-functional momentum, which obviously is something that we would just speak Speaking about, you know, the change management and people piece, what advice would you give to any brand that's trying to shift from isolated 3D to something that's truly embedded across teams across the value chain?

They're only going to change when they see value in it. Like, so I think a lot of them, a lot of it is understanding that a siloed workflow is inefficient. It doesn't help your company grow and it's not scalable like that. That's That's the biggest thing with companies. And I struggle this again, like even with my own team, like we're trying to scale out our workflows and understanding that in order to do that, we have to, you know, create systems that are more designed to help more customers and not just create bespoke opportunities for each of the customers that we work with. And so I think a lot of it is speaking, you know, talking to them about the value that it brings. And understanding that the way that they're doing it now, because people fall back on like, this is what we do, it's easy, change is hard, I'm old and grumpy, I don't want to change, whatever the thing is. But the reality is inaction is a choice too. Choosing to do the same thing you've always done is a choice. It's a, um, there's a potential of a missed opportunity. We call it the cost of inaction. And so there's a cost of inaction if you choose to do things the same way. So letting people know that even that choosing to do things the way that they always have is an active choice that has outcomes to it, and it'll delay in many cases an inevitable change. So it's like, do it now, do it right, save money in the long term.

Absolutely. Um, it would be remiss of me to talk about 3D and DPC in general without talking about AI, of course. Uh, I'm sure you're sick of talking about AI at this point, but let's do it. Let's dive in.

I'm really, I'm really not. I'm— yeah, I'm really not, because I want, I want people to hear this, but please continue. Yes, go ahead. Yeah.

Um, with AI and automation reshaping digital pipelines, what do you think the future role of the designer or artist looks like, especially in industries like Carol and Footwear, where craft and intuition are so highly valued?

They will still be highly valued, I think. So AI— I'll talk to you about my— what I've seen in my job in the last 2 years. So 2 years ago or whatever, like, AI started to emerge onto the scene, right? There were all these cool, like, uh, demo videos and, and, and teaser things and, like, uh, compelling content on LinkedIn and all these different places. And so companies started to get really interested in that, right? And when I would talk to companies about doing things in 3D, they'd be like, okay, that's very interesting. We see the point, but like, isn't AI going to do all that soon? And I would tell them, you know, I have my reasons and I'll get to that in a second. So for then companies like, you know, formed exploratory committees to go out and look into AI, and they talk to these companies, and all these companies are just so eager to sell their product, and they feel like they're doing something good, so they talk about the possibility of it. Within the last 6 months to a year, depending on the company, they've all started to bring in AI tools, use them based on the promises. So a lot of companies, especially on the marketing side, was like, hey, take whatever you've done in the past, feed it into this this, this engine, and we can make brand new marketing content for you based on the stuff that's done in the past. Well, what— so the people who build the tools aren't the people who use the tools. And so what they didn't understand was how detailed every single company in every industry is about their products. Every shape, every label, every color, every word, every pixel needs to be perfect, uh, in order for this to be a viable marketing solution. And they're not, because AI hallucinates. It's what it does. It's what it's designed to do. It's designed to like take two pieces of information and assume what's in the middle. But those assumptions and those hallucinations on an AI engine is not good for your product, for your garment, for the thing that you designed, because it's inaccurate. Like it's just, it's not good marketing. And so what in the last 6 months, a lot of it is I've been saying catching companies on the AI rebound a little bit. Because AI is very good at building out like the environment around. So I'd say like use 3D for the stuff that you care about, like your product, your thing, the thing you need to be pixel perfect, the one that you have want creative control over. And then like let AI fill in the space around it because like creatively, like, you know, if you wanted to do some swimwear and you wanted to put it on a beach and show it in context, You care about the swimwear, so you'll put that together and lay out the patterns and stitching perfectly. But then it's like, you just need a random beach in a random location. And in a lot of instances, actually having random stuff is better because if you're making, let's say you're making handbags and you wanna show that this handbag works in a gym or something, it's a duffel bag that's a sporting bag and you want to show it at a gym, you don't want a bunch of branded other company sportswear around what you're doing. So having generic stuff is good. So all that being said, from the apparel standpoint, I still think that being a creative professional comes down to doing things that stand out, that are unique, that are special, and that speak to customer needs and what they, what they want. Those skills are going to carry over in an AI world or non-AI world or whatever. Like the ability to, 'cause they're just tools. They're not gonna provide the solution. Again, talking about it from like a movie standpoint, people are like, oh, you can make any movie that like, you know, you can just like put in your preferences and spit out any movie that people want. I was like, are you outta your mind? Like, who wants that? Like my favorite movies are things that like, I would never get Everything Everywhere All at Once if I like, based on what's in my head. You know, it's like learning new stuff that way. So I think that you, as a creative professional, you have to take the world around you, put it through your unique lens, and then that's what you're putting out in the world. And I don't— AI's not gonna replace that, like, because all AI's gonna do is create an average of everything that's happening around us, right? So it's just— and then that's gonna, like, be 80% of the content, and people are just gonna be like, meh. And then our job as creative professionals is to make the top 5 to 10% of what's out there. Again, I came from photography. The time I was doing photography, I was big in the darkroom photography. I wanted to print things by hand. I never touched Photoshop. I was like, stupid software. And now I'm working for Adobe, so whatever. It all comes around. But I saw people get scared of digital photography because they're like, oh my gosh, now everyone's going to have— and now today everyone's got cameras in their phone. There's more photographers than there's ever been. Before? Because the photographer produces the top 5%. Like, there's a bell curve, and like, you're at the very top of it as a creative professional. All AI is going to do is going to swell that middle so there's more of it. That doesn't mean there's necessarily better content or better designs or better this or better that. Even— sorry, I'm just gonna keep rambling on this, but no, even if you get AI to make every fashion garment, everything in the world, like every— like, you still need your creative eye and your experience to understand what's good and what— like, even if you're like the most optimistic about AI in the world, there'll still be a curation process that only can be done by the professionals that understand what they're doing. Like, I just— especially in garment design, because there's so many factors you just don't get on a screen, like the touch feel, like the draping, the weight of it. The— like, I don't— I just don't I just don't see it replacing. Now, I do see it evolving. I do think this is a crazy technology that we're all going to have to work with, and that I don't think you can turn it off, but I think that you can adapt to it and you can grow with it. But I just think we're going to do things differently. I think in the fashion space, the biggest thing that AI is going to do is create more personalization. Personalization of garment designs. And I think that'll be— I honestly think that's like better for small companies because like, man, I mean, so I sell— part of my 3D artist community, I sell like these just like swag, like I can make anything, t-shirts or I'm a 3D art— I've got a couple of things. It's through a company that I, you know, people— it's called Printful.com. People order it, it gets created and gets sent to them. It's good quality stuff. But I tell you what it does, it means is I don't have to order 500 of these things and keep them in my house and drive my wife and kids crazy because I don't, like, I don't, like, I think that like on-demand stuff will help companies because you don't, you can create more unique designs that don't have to scale. I had a buddy who was marketing at a frozen yogurt place in New York and he would come up with all these like crazy frozen yogurt flavors that like Merlot and all these like really cool ones. And, and every time, because they would do like a flavor of the month, and every month they would end up just going with like spicy chocolate because that's what people wanted, because they had to do it at scale. And same thing with fashion. I mean, how many designs are like, like, as a guy, like, dude, how much blue and gray and black stuff can I possibly own? Like, I want some color in my life, my God. But I get why companies do that because it's like Okay, more people are going to buy that than the weird orange color that I want. But with personalization, like, there's more— you can create more bespoke things. And I think as a fashion designer, that's awesome. Like, you can create more unique designs for smaller people because it's not going to, like, cost as much to manufacture and store and all that stuff. Okay, long-winded answer, but that's where I am.

I love it. I love it. And you've answered all 4 of the quick questions that I was going to ask next, so that's great. We're doing really well for time efficiency. I, I do hope that, that— yeah, I completely agree. I think there is a huge opportunity now for this industry to leverage AI for the good and to go down that on-demand personalization route. My worry is that there are going to be people that are just going to use it to make more and quicker, and I hope that that doesn't become the case en masse. But I do think there is a great, great opportunity, and especially for smaller and more independent designers and brands, which, which I think would be great. So as I said, we've gone through a load of other ones I had, I have prepped. So let's talk about Adobe Substance a little bit. So Adobe Substance, of course, sits at the crossroads of creative freedom and technical precision. How do you balance empowering creative exploration with the need for consistency and scale across enterprise environments?

Oh man, that's a great question. I mean, I find that especially with creative professionals, you don't need to do much to inspire their creativity. I think it's more about like giving them the ability to create something that they can technically produce. So I think it's a lot of understanding the tools that they need to create. So for me, my biggest thing is I love making workflows where you don't have to stop. I'm a big believer in the creative flow. We have a joke on my team that— because again, I thought I was the only one that did this— when I have to do something creative, I block off a large chunk of time. I shut myself in my office, I put in my headphones, I listen to ridiculous songs that I can dance around to while I'm creating. And so it started with another person on my team who's recorded a video of himself dancing to Hall and Oates or Lionel Richie, I can't remember, like while he was waiting for a render. And so I was like, oh my gosh, we all do this. So it's like, so getting in that creative flow and that creative flow happens when you can work fluidly. You don't have to like wait for things. You don't have to like cumbersome exporting processes or anything like that. So a lot of it is like, and with Substance, This is something that we did recently, not one of our main products by any stretch of the imagination, but we were finding that companies were using this because an Adobe researcher discovered that package designers would design everything in Illustrator. He's like, you know, die lines for packages and stuff and they're like flat and then you'd have to like kind of visual, like maybe cut them out on paper, fold them up or like whatever and they were weird. But he designed this tool called Fantastic Fold, which is on the website that's It's fantasticfold.com. You can go to it. And basically what it is, is like, if you input an SVG or an Illustrator file, I think it's an SVG, and you have two layers in your Illustrator file, one for cuts and one for creases, and you put it in, this software just knows, oh, it's like cuts, okay, I'll remove everything else. The creases, that's where you're folding it. And you can give it the angles and it all folds together into a 3D model. And you can go for it. And it was just this research product. We put it up and then all of a sudden companies started using it. We were like, oh, and now we're like developing it into, we have to figure out what the heck to do with it. But like, but I think that's such a great example of, because it's not, it was meeting people where they were and helping them deliver the thing that they wanted to create in a very easy way. So it's like, they're already building these in Illustrator. They're already building layers. So all you have to do is just call your layers these things. We'll take what you're doing and make it easy and intuitive, and then we'll give you the output that you want. And, you know, there's even talk of like, can you just automate that process? Can you just say like, can you call them creases 90 and that's a 90-degree fold? And because I joke sometimes with a lot of people, I think fashion designers can associate with this, is like, I have a thing that I say sometimes on our product teams It's like, hey, you know, sometimes the best 3D tool is one that you never have to open. Like, sometimes the best tool is like, like, just take, take whatever you're doing in 2D and filter through this thing, and like 3D output comes out the other side. So it's like, and same when we're doing that with our, um, we have a partnership with HP on this, uh, fabric scanner called the Captus, where it's like their hardware, our software. And basically it's like you put your, your garment sample in it, press go, it takes a few minutes to scan, and then all of a sudden you've got this like high quality resolution photo-real version of your fabric samples. And then you're able to build out like this digital library of samples for the artists and they're able to just like go in there and grab things. Sorry, this is not in the question at all, but one of the things that we're finding with that is like, 'cause a lot of fashion companies are like these conglomerate brands. Like there's these like big, big, you know, it's like, you know, again, coming in from an outsider a few years ago, I was like, wait, What is— I don't understand what this company is. And then you're like, oh wait, they own this, this, this, and this. Like, I know all those brands. Like, I didn't know that parent company thing. So like, so getting, you know, talking to those brands about like, you know, if you create a digital library across all your brands and then, you know, Company A knows what Company B has available at their— and so it's like you can mix and match. And so there's less waste on the product side as well. So it's just tying together what people, how people want to create and building tools for them. And the creativity takes care of itself. People are amazing. My wife and I have a thing where we just like, we'll look at something and like, we'll look at a mural painted on the side of the school and like, people are amazing. Like people, we try and remind ourselves of the good things that people do in a world where it's pretty, we're pretty reminded pretty quickly. You've got to.

Focus on good stuff. It's the good stuff that keeps us going. It's funny that you said that because actually now it's like a light bulb has gone off in my head and I could be completely wrong saying this. I actually think at our recent European event in Lagomaggiore in Italy, Adobe and HP had a shared booth and I think that scanner was there.

Yes, it was. Yes. Yeah, yeah, that CAPTUS was there and it's— they're putting them in like HP showrooms in cities so you can go check those out. But it's— yeah, it's just Yeah, for anyone that wants to look at it, we got videos and stuff online. It's called the CAPTIS, uh, C-A-P-T-I-S. And it's, it's really cool, like, but that's like another step in the process. Like, again, it's, it's like, uh, and again, it's, it's like a very expensive scanner. It's meant for businesses, so you're not going to want one for your home. But if you're, uh, but it's like helping, again, helping people make 3D things or make 3D things easily the way that they want to based on what they have now. It's like, it's, it's all, it's all part of that flow.

Yeah, exciting. Um, looking ahead, what excites you most about the next wave of 3D tooling? Uh, what gaps are you most eager to see filled?

I want new UI. I think it's going— I think that— so this is, this is kind of like an un— this is just me, but this is like, I think this is an untold thing of like AI and where we're kind of going. Um, I think that it's so ridiculous that we Ctrl+Alt+F5 to do things on a keyboard in like a 3D application or in like all these things. Like, we are so used— so we are so used to this typewriter keyboard being our control panel for everything that we do on a computer. Um, but like, and especially in 3D space, like how many menus of submenus of like complexity, and it's just like it's gotten out of control. And I would love— so I think that that we're going to get to a point— I'm using my voice to control things a lot more. Like, I write the newsletter. My first draft is always a transcription of what I say. So I'll talk out my ideas first, and then I build from there. And I'm doing more and more audio transcribing of things. And I want my 3D software to be able to do that too. So I can tell my software, like, Okay, I'd like to, I'd like to, you know, I'd like to grab the stitch tool now. You know, I'd like the double stitch. I'd like to, you know, like, or, you know, you're in a 3D model going around. Okay, bevel. All right, bevel set to 4. And just like respond to the words that I say and understand what I'm saying. Because once you do that, it's like, then what does the keyboard become? Because if, as that technology gets better, it can understand your words better, then all of a sudden maybe we don't need the keyboard for everything. But if we don't need a keyboard, like how do we use our hands? And then we're able to have more like— so I think in, in my lifetime, I think that, um, most create— I think, I think the keyboard will eventually morph and maybe even go away as— and we get other controls. Or maybe it's like— and I think that's where, that's where I get excited about. It's like, once— because then once you do that, what does the UI look like? Like, what is, what is the interaction? Like, what is it? And part of it was, um I had a real aha moment when the first time I had a Quest, and we have a, uh, the Adobe team has a modeling program called Modeler that works in VR space. And I'd never done anything like that before, and I got the goggles and I put them on, and I was sitting at my desk and I was like, okay, where's— and I was looking, I was trying to find the model on the desk, and it was like behind me because it was the room size. And I realized all of a sudden, like, I've got these controllers in my hand and I'm able to like stretch and morph the thing with my body. And because you're so used to doing it with these little teeny tiny mouse movements, that the second you do it the way that you're supposed to, the way that, you know, like we're naturally designed as these physical beings, you're like, wait, why am I right mouse clicking while holding? Like, it's all weird. Like, I just want to move my body to make these things. And I think that's something that I'm very excited about.

Yeah, very cool. So I, I hope there is a day that you guys, you and your, your team, you're not only dancing around to all of the music that you love, but you're also like screaming out instructions to the tools too, and it's just all unfolding in front of you. That would be very cool.

And you are, you're painting a picture of my ideal workflow. It's not like that's actually what I want. I would, I would lie and say it's something else, but no, I want to, I want to just— because I, I just, uh, I stand all day when I work, and so I just kind of want to just like move around and, and create things and and play things around. And yeah, there's, there's just so much exciting stuff that's coming.

It would be really cool. You, you strike me as a Taylor Swift kind of guy.

Yeah, actually, well, it's funny, one of, one of our, um, uh, friend of a friend is like Taylor Swift's backup singer. And so we get like all these like— and she's— and this is like, it's so— yeah, I mean, all the credit to Taylor Swift. What she's doing is incredible. Like, yeah, go get her.

My, my Mic drop. Okay, we've just got a few more and I know that we're kind of running out of time. I'm sure you've got plenty of other things to be doing. I want to talk a little bit about the 3D Artists Community. So you co-founded and continue to lead it. Can you tell us a bit more about its mission and what inspired you to build it?

Yeah, I mean, it all came from my transition from the entertainment space into learning all these other workflows and very amazing things and amazing people who are using 3D to do other things. And it really was inspired by— so it started with like, you know, it was a year or two after I'd gotten into this job and really got my feet under me and got an understanding of it that I wanted to find a way to communicate what all these other industries were doing and kind of connecting people together. I'd written a book on lighting for animated movies. I'd co-wrote a book years ago. And so I was like, oh, maybe I'll write a book. And then I remembered how hard that was. And I was like, no, thank you. I'm not doing that again anytime soon. So I was like, what's the fastest way I can get some proof of concepts out? And I was like, newsletters were starting to get more and more popular. And I was like, you know what? I just went on Substack one day and just created an account. And I just called it The 3D Artist because that was the first thing that came to my mind. And I was like, all right, let's go that. And so I just started writing these newsletters about different topics, but mostly centered around either A, what it means to be a 3D artist and how to succeed, but mostly around this idea of exposing other 3D industries to various people so they all— so everyone knew the available opportunities. Because this came at a time when being an artist on film and animation and gaming and everything, there was huge layoffs and strikes and production stoppages. And I know so many people today who are just like brilliant, amazing artists and people who are struggling to find work for a year or two. And it's like, and then I talk to these companies that were like, hey, we need 3D people who can help us with this. And I'm like, oh, like, why aren't you— I just want to connect everybody. And again, it's a lot of like, you know, a company will post that they're, you know, that they want a digital CMF designer, and then I've got this person over here who's designed digital versions of clothing films for two decades and have like every— or like they have— it's like you just have to learn like a little bit to bridge the gap between the things, and they don't see each other. And so just trying, trying to bridge the gap both ways. And then, um, and then yeah, so I start— I started writing the newsletter. It really started resonating with people. Um, I got better at it. Um, they were pretty bad at first, like, but that's the way it is when you make something new. And, uh, and then that led into people saying like, hey, we want to connect with some of these people that you're talking to. And so I Again, same way, I just kind of like went and I did a lot of research on what it— because I wanted to build an online community because I see all these like Discord servers for different groups. I never— they always just felt like noise to me. They didn't feel like genuine community because it felt like very a take-centric approach to it. It was very much like, I need this, I'm struggling with this. And then people would grab what they needed and leave. And I wanted to build a space where people could support each other and come together and talk about things and grow together. Um, and so I did a lot of research and I took a— I took a— I joined a community and I took classes on how to build a community. And a really dumb thing that came out of it, which was like, I— a little bit of money to join it is— is creates buy-in. Um, but I didn't— I didn't want or need to profit from it. So I built a model where it's $20 a month right now for anybody who wants to join the community, but that money goes into a pool that we use for the community. So it's like, it goes into— we buy software licenses, licenses, we pay for workshops and things like that. But we're gonna start, and it's grown, there's now like 80-ish people in the community. We've got a really tight group of like 20 or 30 people who are active participants. I've made a lot of friends through it. And really, and what happened was, is we started getting people in, a lot of people from the apparel space, a lot of fashion people, 'cause we realized a lot of them are by themselves at companies or like, looking for more support. So a lot of that. And then it's like all of a sudden we realized, we looked around, we're like, hey, we've got an incredible group of people and we're learning all these things from each other. Like, we need to do something. So we're starting to do more like research projects and funding those through the community and a lot of things. So it's like, so it's really all about making sure that every creative professional who knows 3D is fully aware of all the opportunities that they have available to them. That was the initial goal. And now it's just, like a very cool third space for artists to hang out. Like, I'm obsessed with this idea of the third space. You've got your home, your work, but like, where do you spend your other time? And obviously, like, I'd like something in the real world, so I do some more real-world events too, but like, for— but this is like your digital third space where you can hang out with people who are creative, who are like you, who— but also can push you and help you understand new things, and you can help them. And it's like, It's a really lovely, um, lovely space to, to grow and be together with people.

Nice, I love that. And yeah, I mean, I love the, um, whenever I see your posts, one, I love the, uh, branding. I didn't know you had merch, so if anyone else loves branding too, there is merch available. But I know it's always like really good, um, and, uh, really good energy behind what you share. And I think that the, the mantra and mission of it is so important too. So thank you for doing that and You know, I see you're doing that on top of your full-time job. You know, it's additional work. So yeah, I think it's such an important thing to be doing.

It's one of those things too. It's— and I feel fortunate because it's not like so much my time, but like Adobe gives me the space to do it. Like they support me. They've been nothing but like kind about it. And even doing like interviews like this, like I can be my own individual in the world. And as long as, you know, I think I have to put somewhere, views and opinions are my own, as long as I tag that to everything I do. So I'll say it here, views and opinions are my own. I'm a guy named Michael. I'm not Adobe. But they've obviously supported. And then it's really led to, and again, a lot of what I'm doing with the newsletter now is part of what I do with work, which is again, being optimistically curious. And now that I'm older and more comfortable in my skin and what I do professionally. It's like if I do something or if I talk to somebody and I don't understand the term that they use or the thing that they said or the software that they just brought up, like I'll stop and be like, hey, I'm sorry, I really, I don't understand that acronym. Can you explain that to me please? And what I found is that, 'cause I think this happens when you get older, you just assume that everybody else knows exactly what they're doing, but I think we're all just kind of figuring it out as we go along. And so like, I was just talking, we, oh, in the community we do AMAs most Wednesdays. We'll bring somebody in from the community and we'll, you know, we've had people from like Nike and Apple and all these like really incredible, you know, anything from fashion designers to immersive people. And the last one was a good friend of mine who I worked with for a long time, but she's now running like, she wants to run like a company that's focused on ethical AI Workflows for Creative Professionals. Her name is Nikki Tamano, and she started talking about LORAs in her thing, and I was like, okay, I don't know what a LORA is. Can you please explain that to me? And so she explained it. So a lot of my newsletters lately have just been, I've been, you can call it the WTF series of like, what is this thing? Like we've done it with like, WTF is USD or, you know, And so I want to do a WTF on what is a LORA? Because it turns out it's like this thing that you can train for AI to make the things that you want. But it reminded me, my father— we had a— my brother got married, and my sister-in-law put together a schedule of events, like the days leading up to it. And she had a big block of time the day of the wedding for manis and pedis. And my dad got the calendar, and he looked at it, and he was like, Who the hell is Manus Pettus? Why does he get so much time? And he like, that's like, that's so funny. And so that was my Laura moment because she was like, Laura. I was like, who is Laura? Like, who's she talking about? And I was like, um, and then it turned out it's a, it's an acronym for something. So, uh, yeah, so I had my old man Manus Pettus moment of, uh, I'm not understanding anything. So yeah, I love that.

But yeah, if anyone, um, if anyone doesn't follow the 3D Artists Community at the moment on LinkedIn, please, please do. It's great. And subscribe too, become a member and you can reap all of the benefits that Michael just went through. I did have a couple more.

We'll send you swag if you join.

Yeah, free swag. Who doesn't love free swag? I did have a couple more things, but I actually think that you covered all of it. Your answers have been so good for all of these things. So yeah, I think we've gone through community and, you know, the disconnect between opportunity and talent. So yeah, I think we've hit the nail on the head across the board. So Michael, thank you so, so much. I'll leave you to your sunny garden outside of San Fran. It looks lovely. But thank you for your time and I hope to see you IRL at some point soon at one of our events or somewhere else.

Absolutely, Michael. If you ever need me back for anything, I very much enjoyed talking to you as well. So yeah, I look forward to seeing you in the real world at some point. But if you ever need me back, let me know.