ANTHROPY25: Gbemi Oluleye - The One Environmental Metric We Aren't Talking About...

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What mistakes do you think have been made within the sustainability movement?

It happened too late, right? Damn it.

That's the most—

It happens.

That's absolutely some of the most crushing answers to that question we've had so far.

So welcome back to a special Anthropie miniseries of Sustainability Solved, recorded live at the Eden Project in a rainforest. I think we've said that each time now, haven't we?

It was in a rainforest. And in this interview, we talked to Dr. Bemi Oluleyo from Imperial College London, and she's Really fascinating. She brought a really interesting, very academic, but absolutely relevant analysis of where we are and how we make sustainable transformations or transitions affordable, which I thought was really interesting. And I think she also talked a lot about how late we've left all of this stuff and how much we've got to do in not a lot of time.

Yeah. really very insightful with the way that she was able to look at everything holistically. And didn't she come up with— and it is later on— the Bemi metric?

Bemi metric. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we asked Bemi, what is the metric that people need to look at, we need to focus on in terms of really embracing sustainability? And she, you know, a lot of people that we talked to would say, you know, embodied carbon, lifecycle carbon, or this or that or the other. And she said, It doesn't really exist yet, but if we could create a metric, so a number, a figure that talked about how much nature is going to bite back on humanity effectively, to make people understand, well, if we do this, this will be the backlash from nature. People might start to understand that nature is not just a passenger in this journey, that actually at some point, you know, as it is doing and increasingly, it is gonna have something to say about the way in which we've treated the world. And I thought that was a real moment of insight, wasn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So listen, listen to this episode and hopefully you find it as intriguing as us. And if you'd like to get in contact with us about anything within this, do get in contact in your normal ways.

And if you can get in contact and tell us what the formula of the Bemi Matrix is, even better. Thanks, dudes. That's sort of done our homework for us. Bemi, hello and welcome to the podcast. Could you tell us a bit about yourself, who you are and what you do and why you're here.

Oh, so, um, who? So many.

What's your full name then?

Uh, my name is Gbemi, uh, Oluleye. I'm a lecturer at the Grantham Institute at Imperial. I lead research activity that finds ways to make the sustainable transition for industry, for the manufacturing sector, affordable. So that's one hat I wear, trying to look for the economic value, trying to find ways to make and create an economic value for them, but also trying to think about how they can be resilient if there is no economic value. And then I translate that into what we call an executive education program for chief sustainability officers and sustainability leads, just using that to support them in executing their sustainability strategies. So this is once you have a strategy, how do you deliver in a cost-effective way using some principles and systems thinking? And I also teach master's students at Imperial College on creating a sustainable future down to the economics of it, but also the innovation required to drive that, that change. So I do wear both.

You're busy then.

Yes, yes, yes. What's going on?

So what one thing about sustainability that really energizes you at the moment?

I think it's the, it's the best way to think about the future, right? Because gone are the days when what we did did not have— well, what we do always have an impact on the environment and on the planet, but I think gone are the days where we can get away with it. So now it's that excitement that people have an opportunity to integrate that impact into planning, into business decisions. I think it's going to change the way we do business going into the future.

And do you think it changes our value— that will inherently basically radically change our value set?

It has an opportunity to change our value set because you're caring about one thing that does not have a monetary value per se, right? So it's kind of moving us from a profit maximization, a cost minimization kind of value system to some form of a purpose. And so I think it's going to— it has the potential, but it depends on how it's done. It depends on how it's adopted. But if we really look at the potential, it can cause a lot of changes. to how we see life or how we see doing business.

What do you think the biggest barriers to this transition are?

There's so many. To me, it's the cost, but it's also the way we see costs.

Yes.

Because it's who's going to bear the burden. I mean, everyone can make a change, but who is going to bear the burden? On the one hand, that's it, but it's also how we see cost. We see it as a burden as opposed to something we need to do to save us from— it's to save us from investing so much more to fix the problem. So it's like prevention, risk mitigation. So yeah.

But I also think it's how we sort of do the accountancy on the cost. So for example, poor quality housing, Well, you know, they were going to bring in a load of improvements to rental housing and they said, oh, it's going to cost too much for landlords, so they stopped that. But actually we just end up paying as a society because poor quality housing leads to worse outcomes for people and health issues. And, you know, so it's some very poor accountancy, isn't there, going on, which is sort of actually making us make some pretty stupid decisions.

Absolutely. And what I tell businesses, or what my research has shown, is you have to have like whole system perspective to this.

Yes.

Because what is a cost to you is a value to somebody else on the supply chain. So if you take that into account, and there's so much data to show that there is an economic value if you look at the big picture, as opposed to just my own silo and my own boundaries and the impact on me, just as the example you've given with the housing situation. Yes, it's going to cost so much to retrofit a building to make it better, more energy efficient, but it saves money down the line. So it's that having that whole—

Thinking about your academic hat, what skills or expertise will be the most valuable for businesses in the coming decade?

So we used to say multidisciplinary, but now we've reached a stage where it's interdisciplinary. And now we've reached a stage where it's convergence, convergence of skills. So traditionally in academia, you have someone studying engineering, medicine, accounting, and they only meet in— even in the, the world, they'll probably have an opportunity to meet together in an office. That's only if there is a project that brings all this expertise together. So something we've realized is we're not training the next generation to think convergently. Everyone is thinking divergently. So that's why someone would say that's expensive, but there is a health impact who our doctors will be happy to see. So I think for us the future is this form of convergent thinking, and most universities are already thinking about creating schools according to a global problem. So I know King's College London, Imperial College, LSE also has like this School of Sustainability where we can bring that convergent thinking from the bottom up. into the next generation of leaders to say this is a problem that can only be tackled if we see the value from this whole system perspective.

We had Sarah Gordon on earlier.

Ah, okay.

So holistic, sort of a holistic approach is probably the thing that is going to benefit business the most over the next 10 years.

Yes. If they can't see that holistic approach, then they will struggle to extract economic value. There is, I mean, I've worked with data from businesses all over the world. And by the time you start putting the pieces of the puzzle together and showing the interactions, it takes time. We probably don't have the skills to do that very quickly for them to see the business case based on this holistic approach. But we got there, we get there eventually.

Quick word from our sponsor, 51tocarbonzero.com. If you're a CFO or board member staring down CSRD or Scope 3 and thinking, where do we even start? We at Sustainability Solved would point you to 51tocarbonzero.com. They turn complex, fragmented emissions data into something simple and give boards clear, audit-ready visibility on exactly where the reduction opportunities are. It's not another reporting tool that adds work. It's built so the data holds up when your auditor asks the hard questions. If that's a conversation worth having, get in touch with 51@carbonzero.com, or just drop me a message and I'll point you in the right direction. Right, back to the episode.

So, has there been a moment or examples you can think of where you're starting to see business goals and sustainability goals really starting to align and you're getting that eureka moment?

I think most of the alignment I've seen has been with startups or new businesses where they're already thinking of this triple bottom line model from day one.

Yep.

And then that's how they form their business strategy and their corporate strategy. And you can see the benefits. I'm yet to see an alignment for already existing organizations. I see a drive. I see an ambition. to align it. And I mean, a simple example is most organizations have a separate sustainability strategy from their corporate strategy. And I can understand the challenges with trying to align because it's also the internal governance of the business. But I've seen it with startups and new businesses, and it's great to see that from the bottom up.

Do you think they'll be able to adapt?

Existing businesses?

Yeah.

So we looked at like over 500,000 sustainability initiatives of companies within 10 years. And people are beginning to see the value of aligning. Because with businesses, when they see it works, then they adopt it, right? So I think in 5, 10 years' time, there'll be an alignment. It takes time. It takes time. But I'm very optimistic about it because there's a lot of awareness. A lot of interest in adapting. There seems to be a need from workers as well to operate in this space. I'm positive about it.

What mistakes do you think have been made within the sustainability movement?

It happened too late, right?

Damn it. That's the most— that's actually some of the most crushing answers to that question we've had so far.

It's also the most pragmatic and sensible one as well.

No, it is. It's very sensible. An honest one.

I do this exercise with the corporates I train to understand when things were invented. So, nylon, rubber, iron and steel, pulp and paper, cement. And this was centuries before sustainability became a movement. So it's almost like we've had years to do rubbish and all of a sudden we have to fix it. So I think the movement started too late, but there's still an opportunity. opportunity to catch up. It requires a lot of effort, but the more we delay, the harder it gets.

Is there one sustainability metric that you think deserves more attention than it currently gets?

I think it's a metric that we've not thought about, the impact of planet on people and productivity.

Right. So what are degradation, sort of planetary degradation impacts?

Yes, on people's livelihood and productivity.

How do you turn that around?

So turn it around and bring it down to people, you and I. Yeah. So if the temperature goes up by 1 degree, how does it affect me?

Yes.

Especially my productivity in the workplace. I think that will be a game changer because the success of an organization, profit is tied to people and processes and systems, and systems are over time created from people. So if we can link that to people, I think it's going to change a lot of things.

That's genius because, you know, I think so much of the framing around this is like we are doing this to the Earth. Yeah. And, and, and yes, everyone says, and the Earth's going to bite back. And yeah, and everyone goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, fine. But it's not— I can't— yeah, it's a bit whatever.

Yeah.

But I actually start saying, here are the— here's a matrix that sort of starts to really tell you those impacts. Like you can look at You can look at sea level rising, you can look at this, you can look at that, each island shutting, you know, they're there. But people, I mean, I think, I think there's something very insightful about what you say. Yeah, you've got to invent it though. What's it going to be? The Bemi scale? We need a Bemi scale.

I'll think about it because people cannot, people like, I mean, the educated people can relate to sea level rise, right? But the person on the street, sea level rise, I mean, they're probably very far from the sea.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it is going to affect about 800 million people by 2050. So, I mean, they will affect it, but—

Eventually, you know, eventually. But if it's related to something that they care about, and I've seen it in the communication about climate change, people are more receptive to the impact on health than the impact on sea levels rising or temperatures or global warming. But once you mention health and they can connect Oh my hell, that changes the game, that people are more— they embrace the whole concept better. So I think for sustainability.

What do you think is the biggest disconnect between sustainability rhetoric and business reality? Where's the real challenge there?

I think we've not created a safe space for businesses to really talk about their challenges, right? Because Most people in businesses today understand the sustainability rhetoric, right? They also understand their own business reality. So they're trying to make a shift to bring it into their reality, but it requires changing systems within a business that no one understands because we've not created that space for them to talk about that. So most times, if you're in a conversation and you're a sustainability enthusiast and you're telling a business you need to integrate sustainability do better, they'll say, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine, we have a sustainability strategy. But they've not opened up to say what exactly is the challenge with implementing or doing it or thinking about it as an ultimate business decision. Is it the people? So when you look at it from the people angle, so if you're in charge of HR, for instance, or you're in charge of accounting, You just don't have the time to put sustainability on your plates.

But yet you have to look like you know what you're doing.

Yeah, you have to.

So you have to put out a sustainability strategy that looks like it knows what it's doing, even if— and you can't admit that we really don't quite know how we're going to tackle this.

Yeah. And is it about, do you then recruit a team? So you recruit maybe a CSO, a Chief Sustainability Officer, to raise a team, but there's no interaction between that team and the rest of the business. So it's almost like, how do you— and when I was recruited for my job, there was nothing there to say I'll be more sustainable, but now I need to be more sustainable. So maybe thinking about an economic value to get people to think about it in their roles, in what they do. I don't know if that answers your question.

No, I think it does. Yeah, I think it does. I think that the fact that they need to look busy and they need to look like they've got control of it. They need to look like they know exactly what to do. And rather than saying, we don't really know, let's spend some time and work this out. I mean, I have to say, there was one thing about Badenoch's talk this morning, Kemi Badenoch's talk this morning, where she said, we're not going to get 20— we're not going to do 2050, which I don't necessarily— I don't agree with. But irrespective, she then said, we need some time to work out what a real plan does look like. And on one level, I'm like, fair enough, that's okay. But she did, she, you know, she didn't say I've got the answer, which I thought was— I'm trying to be positive— that was a slight upside to the whole thing.

I mean, no one has the answer, right? So the, the 2050 timeline came from rigorous scientific evidence.

That's the problem.

That is the problem with their argument. To say that we kind of need to get to some form of neutrality by 2050. If we are to maintain the current temperature levels. And I know, you know, that's the scientific evidence. And I know governments around the world, some people are doing 2060, 2070 because they are thinking about what's possible, what about the funds and all. But since 2019, when the UK legislated net zero by 2050 and passed it, I think people— there's a lot of momentum.

Yes.

So you kind of want to keep the momentum going.

Yes, 100%.

No, I agree 100%.

And even if you are aware of the challenges, it's a case of what do you do to mitigate that challenge just to keep the momentum going? If we get to 2050 and we surpass, you know, we get to absolute zero and not net zero, then there's a pat on our shoulder, right? If we get to 2050 and we reduce emissions by 10%, 20%, that's a big pat on our shoulder. So I think you want to keep the momentum going. Yes, we're aware of the risks. We know people need to make plans, but just, just keep the momentum going.

All it was was a soft way of saying, I'm getting rid of net zero. She was bringing it into the conversation because that's what she wants to do.

So I don't know. Oh, Trump would love that. Don't say that. Trump would love that kind of rhetoric.

But that's what she's saying.

Well, that's what she's doing, isn't she? She's trying to appeal to that, to that right-wing sort of move. Lurch across it, of course.

And finally, if we look at the business community as a whole, where do you feel they are with regards to sustainability? And I mean holistic sustainability on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being negative and 10 being positive.

So I will say the business community as a whole is aware. of sustainability. So if I was to qualify that scale in terms of awareness, it would be a 9. There's a lot of awareness, but there's no adaptation or innovation to be sustainable, right? So on the scale of adaptation and innovation, that will be 2, but on the scale of awareness, that will be 9. And awareness is what we need now. If everyone is aware, same time, then the adaptation and innovation will increase over time.

I really want to ask you one more question now because you've— I love that simple question because it does get so many different answers, doesn't it? In one word, what's the biggest barrier to progress in sustainability? One word.

Mindsets.

Nice, nice.

Thank you.

Good one.

Thank you so much. Thank you.