ANTHROPY25: Paul Nowak - Trade Unions Are Essential To A Just Transition

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If we're going to spend taxpayers' money, we're going to spend it in a way that delivers public services effectively, but delivers it sustainably. And we've got the members there. We've got 4 million trade union members working in public services who could put their shoulders to the wheel. So I think there's lots of levers we can pull in public services.

Welcome to the final episode of our Anthropie Sustainability Solved special. And we had a bit of a coup while we were recording down at the Eden Project. We interviewed Paul Novak, the General Secretary of the TUC. I mean, he's quite a big fish and There were actually a lot of big fishes down there, and Paul very graciously agreed to come and be interviewed by us in a rainforest. It was, it was a good chat, wasn't it?

I really, really enjoyed talking to him because people are going to be such a big part of this just transition. And I think the TUC, just transition, almost they, they align with each other because he's thinking about the workers and he's thinking about the people that are going to be a part of this just transition to a more sustainable world.

I mean, Paul represents 48 unions, 5.5 million workers from every sector across the country. And I suppose his point was that unless you take them with you, you aren't going to have any kind of transition. So, and I think it's a theme that's come up actually quite a lot in the interviews we've done over the last couple of years is actually how do you manage moving a business's structure And bring the people involved in that business with you. And I mean, he felt very confident that it was actually the work, the people, employees of these companies would actually be a big part of the solution.

Yeah, yeah. Training came up a lot with him and the skill sets that are needed and in order to be able to move into different sectors or to move a business or an organisation into a different route.

And while this is the last of the five episodes we're putting out from the event at the moment, we actually did about thirty eight.

Thirty eight, I think. What? I counted them up the other day.

Yeah, I went surfing for a few of them, but there was certainly a lot done.

You didn't go surfing for that many.

No, I missed a few.

Only about only about twenty.

Yeah, about three or four. But thank you. And so we're going to put those out in a different way. We're still working out how to do that, but we do have a little. extra, extra special thing, which was the keynote speech of the event by Kemi Badenoch, which we're also going to be putting out in entirety, which was interesting. And in fact, the questions and answers afterwards, almost more interesting. So that's also coming. Sit back and enjoy this, and obviously get in touch with us, podcast@sustainabilitysolve.org, and you can leave a comment on Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thanks very much and enjoy.

So I'm Paul Novak, I'm the General Secretary of the TUC.

So that's the Trade Union Congress?

That's right, and we represent 48 unions, just short of 5.5 million workers in every single sector of the economy you could think about. Everybody from professional footballers to bus drivers to people working in care homes, people working in car plants. Think of a, think of a job and there's a TUC union out there for your listeners.

Before we dive in, what's one thing about sustainability that energizes you right now?

What energizes me is that I think we've got a real opportunity to sort of build a new industrial future in this, in this country, and sustainability should be a key driver for that. So I want a vibrant automotive industry, steel industry, chemicals industry, as well as vibrant public services and all the rest of it. And I actually think the push towards net zero, decarbonizing our economy gives us an opportunity, challenges without a doubt, but an opportunity there as well.

And do you think that, that change that is inherent in the decarbonisation agenda is actually going to lead to potentially better outcomes for your members, or?

It could do if it's managed properly. I think that's a key thing, Charlie. I mean, I grew up in Merseyside in the '80s and '90s and saw what happened when you get industrial change wrong, you know, people losing their jobs, but, you know, whole communities effectively out of work for decades. Had an impact in parts of Liverpool and Birkenhead, which is where I grew up. I think with the right sort of support from government, commitment from employers, you know, it's about securing good quality employment in the long term for millions of working people. But that won't happen by accident. We've got to make it happen.

Tony Juniper is here today talking about fairness being at the very heart of the transition to sustainability. Is that something— does that chime with you?

It absolutely does chime with me. And, you know, quite often, I mean, I sit in lots of conversations with policymakers and politicians and people wang on about a just transition and how we're going to make it fair. And don't worry, in fact, 5 years' time we'll have jobs in renewables or whatever it might be. If you're working in oil and gas at the moment, you know, in Aberdeen or offshore on one of those rigs, you don't want warm words about what's going to happen in the future. You want that concrete plan about, well, what does this mean for me, my job, my community, my family going forward? And I think people have got the right to have those, to be around the table, to be involved in that conversation and to shape their own future.

The example you've just given is actually an interesting example because it is really happening. You are seeing so many— I actually live up in Scotland now, and I'm seeing so many people from the oil and gas industry transitioning over because there's so much renewable energy going on up there.

Yeah, well, they are transitioning over, but not enough of them and not enough good quality jobs. So one thing I'd say about offshore wind is, I mean, we've got the second biggest— pipeline is the wrong word— but pipeline of offshore wind projects after China in the UK. And we were told that that would create and support tens of thousands of good quality jobs. Actually, it's been in the low thousands. And part of the problem is that what we're doing is we're importing rigs from Southeast Asia or Scandinavia, wherever it might be. I think you've got responsibilities to say, if we're going to use that taxpayer investment, how are we doing it in a way that supports good quality jobs in UK supply chains? And, you know, we're now starting to build relationships with some of those new renewable companies, but it's taken time. And we had big concerns about things like safety in the offshore wind sector in particular. But actually sort of thinking about capturing the benefits for UK supply chains, I think is really important and it gives people confidence that you are in their corner and fighting for them.

So what would you say is one of the, or the biggest sustainability challenge problem facing both businesses and therefore your members today?

I mean, it really varies from sector to sector. I say we've got people working at the sharp end in oil and gas, but also in steel and chemicals where the cost of energy is, I mean, it's part of the reason why we're struggling to compete against, you know, sort of comparator countries in Europe through to people working in the NHS.

I mean, the NHS is a huge, emitter of greenhouse gases.

So, you know, there's big challenges in different sectors. For me, I think the big challenge is, is really about giving people some control over it and getting to net zero in the right way. I mean, you can get to net zero by deindustrializing our economy, saying that we don't do steel anymore, we import it from China. That to me is not—

Offshoring of carbon emissions.

Exactly.

Game the numbers.

On the one hand, that seems fine, but actually I mean, particularly if you look at the volatile world we're living in at the moment, who knows what's going to happen to tariffs in aluminium and steel and anything else. I think you've got a real responsibility to make sure that we've still got an industrial base in this country in 10 or 20 years' time, but an industrial base that, you know, complements our net zero objectives.

They've just— haven't they just— talking about the steel industry, they have just worked out how to make steel from renewable sources. I know Sweden has done it, and I think we're doing it as well in the UK.

Yeah, yeah. And the government's put aside £2.5 billion to support a steel strategy and brought that forward in light of what's happening.

Brilliant.

But it links across to other things as well. So I mean, electric arc furnaces are part of the solution. Not all types of steel can be produced that way. Carbon capture and storage, I know there's a lot of skepticism about there about is this proven technology or not? But I mean, if you want an industrial base in the future, CCS I think has got to be part of that mix. And as I say, I mean, You know, if you look in South Wales, what's happened to Port Talbot where the blast furnaces closed down, you can understand why people are sceptical about, you know, the green agenda. And I'll tell you what, Nigel Farage is running around South Wales telling everybody the reason why Port Talbot is closed is because of, you know, Ed Miliband's net zero madness. Nothing to do with that whatsoever. So I think we've got to win the popular argument in the hearts and minds.

And I mean, that's the danger. If you don't have a just transition, then you have no transition at all because you get you know, rolled, you know, people pulling back and backsliding.

And I'll tell you what, our members, whether they're working in energy-intensive industries or public services, I mean, our members care about net zero and climate change as well. I mean, they've got kids, they worry about the future. I mean, they're not just worried about their jobs, but obviously, you know, everyone does worry about their livelihoods, and rightly so.

And if you had to bet on one sort of sustainability solution that you've seen, heard around, that will successfully scale in the next sort of 5 years, what do you sort of What's your great hope?

What's the great white hope here? Oh, I, I may not be a bit controversial, I'll throw in too. So carbon capture and storage I think has got to be, um, uh, part of the solution. New nuclear I think is part of the solution. Now, not all parts of the environmental movement like that.

No, I mean, I'm fine with it though. You wouldn't say— you wouldn't say—

I think our nuclear is so ridiculous, the fact they pushed it, pushed it, pushed it. They should have done it in the early 2000s.

Yeah, well, and, and then Boris Johnson was gonna build 8 new nuclear power stations. I mean, I mean, I think they went the same way as the hospitals.

But it, it, but it is one of those things, isn't it?

where on new nuclear, I mean, I think there is a sort of a— this is an opportunity to think about the pipeline of skills, you know, going forward. I mean, it was crazy. I mean, Hinkley, I've been down to that site, it's fantastic, but it was Chinese money to support the French-owned state-owned energy company to build a new British nuclear power station. I mean, that's not the way most other countries would do it, and we've got to get this sort of stuff right.

And also to make use of the kind of the technological know-how that we have, like small-scale reactors. We're really good at those. Yeah, one of the few countries in the world we are really good at that. I mean, and then don't get me started on Germany. Like, because of Fukushima, they shut down their nuclear power stations. You don't have a fault line through your country. What are you doing?

Yeah.

And that massively pushed up their carbon emissions through coal.

Well, so they also buy from France now.

And big issues about energy security with Russian gas and all the rest of it.

So, and what mistakes, what other mistakes do you think that the sustainability movement has made over the last 20, 30 years that, you know, you see and think, well, we've got to do this better?

I think it is about how you get the workers at the sharp end, that's you, around the table. And so, like, little confession, I mean, because I spent a lot of time—

Don't worry, no one's listening, you'll be fine.

We'll keep it private. I spent a lot of time slagging off the last government. One of the things they did right, actually, is they set up this thing called the Green Jobs Task Force. So they brought together— there was unions, which is unusual for the Conservatives, employers, education providers, and we were tasked with thinking about, well, how are we going to support and create the good green jobs of the future? I mean, quite a hard-fought report. And launched a— I wouldn't say fanfare because it's slightly over-egging it, but it just died a death because it became a victim of the, you know, the internal psychodrama in the Tory Party about are we doing the green stuff anymore or not. But one of the key recommendations in that was that companies should be— large companies should be required to draw up net zero plans in consultation with their own workforce. And I think starting those conversations about, oh, this— we're not going to be making exhausts in 5 years' time. So what are we going to do and what will that mean for investment in the company, in skills, in, you know, some people might move into different sectors, that's fine, but giving people that opportunity to shape it and plan it. And particularly for a lot of smaller employers who are in sectors that frankly, if you're producing exhaust for internal combustion engines, you won't be doing it in 10 years' time. So supporting those small employers as well to think about how they transition.

But also to understand how you can capture those structures. that are viable, good businesses that need help and support to transition to something.

So one of the things we're doing now is we've got project workers working with unions in some of those sectors to think about signposting the employer towards where might you be able to get investment, where might you be able to get advice, where are the opportunities in other parts of the automotive supply chain? If it isn't exhaust, then what else could you do? Maybe it's not in automotive, maybe it's in another sector, but you can transfer a lot of that knowledge across. You know, in, in some ways that's really exciting, but I think that's— it's, it's still all small scale at the moment. We need to do this stuff to scale, don't we? We need to do it quickly because, you know, this, you know, it's no use 10 years' time looking back and saying, oh, wouldn't it be great if we'd done X?

Yeah.

Quick word from our sponsor, 51tocarbonzero.com. If you're a CFO or board member staring down CSRD or Scope 3, and thinking, where do we even start? We, at Sustainability Solved, would point you to 51tocarbonzero.com. They turn complex, fragmented emissions data into something simple and give boards clear, audit-ready visibility on exactly where the reduction opportunities are. It's not another reporting tool that adds work. It's built so the data holds up when your auditor asks the hard questions. If that's a conversation worth having, get in touch with 51@carbonzero.com, or just drop me a message and I'll point you in the right direction. Right, back to the episode.

If we were to significantly reduce climate emissions as a nation or globally, what would be the number one thing that you would suggest?

Oh, I mean, that's such a big— and I'm not an expert, I'm not an expert on this sort of stuff, but I mean, for me, I think looking at our public services and how we deliver public services would be one. thing, which is not the most obvious thing, but, you know, how you deliver services. For example, do you have to bring everybody into a community, into a hospital? There's the stuff that you can do to deliver healthcare in a way that's better for patients but is also more sustainable. I think there's a huge job there to think about the way that we deliver our services. That's really not touched on. Unison, our public sector union, one of our public sector unions, has done some really good work on this.

And galvanising the people that are within your unions as well. I would say it's probably for me, that was one of the reasons why I was really keen to talk to you, because you're in such a unique and an amazing position where you've got so many people that look up to you and look up to—

I won't go too far, Will.

You know what I'm getting at. Um, you are a group of people and there are lots of groups of people. Quite often, that is amazing because it's such a part of the solution.

And quite often they do trust their local union to help them support them through this sort of stuff. And one of the things that we've We actually started under the previous Labour government and went into abeyance. I'm really keen to reinvigorate it here. I mean, what we're effectively union green reps, so people who are in the workplace like shop stewards for climate change, who are working with the employer to say, actually, if we stagger journeys into work, we could avoid, you know, everybody jumping in the car. If we did, you know, if we finished at this time, if we got better lighting, but challenging the employer as well to say, actually, we can have a more sustainable workplace. And our members love that sort of stuff as well because it's a bit of a sense of As I say, they care about this as well.

It's also educating. They will get into education then as well, which will also upskill them at the same time.

People can see the everyday changes that you're making in your life, but that the employer can do that make a big difference.

So just to roll back quickly to the changes in public service provision to reduce carbon emissions, and you think that's critical because there's such huge— it's a huge percentage of the economy, and that actually with a centralized government push you could really make progress and do some, some of the hard yards.

Absolutely, and it fits in with the current government's sort of agenda around reform of public services and how we deliver public services. But I think you've got a huge amount of taxpayer money there, you've got the power of procurement where you can actually say if we're going to spend taxpayers' money, we're going to spend it in a way that delivers public services effectively but delivers it sustainably. And we've got the members there, we've got 4 million trade union members working in public services who could put their shoulder to the wheel. So I think there's There's lots of levers we can pull in public services. And actually, if you're government, it's hard to ask private sector companies to do stuff if you're not doing it yourself as well. And that sort of leading by example, I think, is really important.

And finally, what if you were to look at what's going on in business from a sustainability point of view, 1 being negative, 10 being positive, where would you say, where would you sit?

You know what, I'm on a sort of 6.5 type, 6.5. I mean, I think there's been a lot of greenwashing and a lot of talk about the need for sustainability. And then when it comes down to the long hard yards of actually doing it, but I've seen our members working with, you know, automotive companies would jump to mind, or on sustainable aviation fuels, for example, or on SMRs where you think actually—

SMRs?

Small modular reactors. I've been to more nuclear facilities than probably anybody in the country that's not a nuclear scientist. So I've got the lingo. Yeah, but 6.5, but moving in the right direction.

How much of a challenge do you think the sort of the break in the consensus about net zero in 2050, how damaging is that?

I think it— I mean, you know, certainly when you look at what's happening on the other side of the Atlantic, it's a real worry. But I think we just got to stay the course. And actually, I mean, you know, today we've been talking about how you give people the confidence to invest in the UK economy. One of the things you get that confidence is by stability and knowing that policy is not going to change next year or the year after. And I think a UK government that's committed to net zero, engaging workers and getting to net zero, Can give investors the confidence that if we bet on this horse now, it'll still be in the race five years.

And so how do you feel about Kemi Badenoch talking tomorrow and what that her take on that?

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be here for Kemi tomorrow. Unfortunately, I'm watching me here. No, there's not a lot of hair there, dude.

That won't take long. I reckon you get that done and you get over in time.

It takes a lot of work to look this good now. I mean, I think it's really dangerous. I mean, I think what you're doing is playing politics with something that is really fundamental. So you know. I don't really care about the internal politics of the Conservative Party. I actually don't think that's where the vast majority of the British public are at. Obviously, people are concerned about the economy and living standards, rightly so. But this isn't living standards or sustainability or net zero. It's, it's living standards because we're leading on net zero and sustainability. And so, yeah.

Where do you think the biggest disconnect is between the sustainability rhetoric and the business reality? There's clearly a disconnect, isn't there, between, you know, greenwashing. You talked about greenwashing. So, you know, how is that being facilitated? What do you think are the mechanisms that are allowing that to, you know, to be such an issue? And how do we challenge that to actually kind of align sustainability and business agendas?

Yeah, well, I think it's about getting back to the sort of the fundamentals of a business, isn't it? About you're doing this, it's not because it's a nice thing to do or because you're trying to present your credentials as a good green employer. It's because actually this is fundamental to the long-term success of your your organization. And it's going to be fundamental, I think, in terms of securing investments as well. So, I mean, trying to get businesses in that sort of— I understand, particularly when, I mean, you know, the economic news hasn't been great, people are worried about being the first mover. And do I have additional costs that my competitor down the road doesn't have? But I think if you start thinking about this in timescales of not 12 months or 2 years, but 5 years, 10 years, that's where you see the value of the added investment.

So longevity is the real disconnect.

Yeah, and it's one of the things actually we've been bad at in the UK UK taking long-term decisions. I mean, you talked about Germany before, Charlie. I mean, I'm not going to hold it up as a perfect example because clearly they've got their own problems, but what they have had is a much more long-termist view of investment in the environment, industrial policy more broadly, and things like skills. And it's one of the things that the UK has been bad at.

Yeah. And then finally, what skills or expertise will be most valuable for businesses in the coming decade?

Well, it's really difficult, and I'm not sure that businesses themselves themselves know. And this is why I always get a little bit skeptical when I hear about governments and policymakers saying that our skill system needs to be employer-led, because most employers don't quite know what skills they're going to need in 5 years' time. I think what you need is a system that is flexible enough that allows people to retrain throughout their working life and do so without fear. So we've done a lot of work. We had a big series of projects funded by the last Labour government and kept for 10 years by the previous— by the last Conservative government called Union Learn, which is about supporting union led project on learning the skills. And what it did was give people confidence. Don't worry about retraining or reskilling or thinking again about, you know, getting basic IT skills, for example, because we're going to support you to do that. And I think we've got to get people in that mindset that retraining, reskilling is part of their everyday lives. I also do want— this is a big thing for me— employers to put the money where their mouth is, because all too often they moan about, you know, the schools don't give us the skills we need, the colleges don't give us the skills we need.

Traditionally, they got the, they got the skills on the job. Yeah, that's how a lot of it works.

And skills investment in the UK by employers is about half the EU average. And so you're gonna have to pony up some of this. I think the education system's got a responsibility to bring kids into, into your workplace who, who can learn, who are, you know, sort of not afraid to sort of work and all the rest of it. But as employers, don't expect to get ready-made, and don't certainly don't expect them to come into your business and to have the skills that they're going to need in 20 years' time. That's your job.

Yeah.

Brilliant. Paul, thank you so much.

Cheers.

Thanks, John.

Cheers, Will.

Thank you.