E020 - Hermione Taylor from Do Nation

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Yeah, so tell us a bit about your business and what your purpose and who you work with.

So DoNation is all about encouraging sustainable living. We help people to form healthy and environmentally friendly habits through, through an online pledge platform where anyone can either make a pledge or run a campaign to raise pledges from their friends and families and colleagues. And the pledges are to do stuff like cycling to work, using reusable coffee cups, or what will be this week's Do Action of the Fortnight is avoiding unsustainable palm oil.

Okay, so how would you expect people to do that? Would you— do they go on your website when they sign up? So what happens?

Yeah, so if you're making a pledge— well, no, if you're running a campaign, which is what we ultimately aim for people to do, that could be an individual running a campaign to say, I'm running the London Marathon, but actually I don't want your cash. The environment needs your action. Make a pledge. And that's where the idea of DoNation originated. It was individuals doing challenges, whether it was big cycle rides, which is what I had done, marathons, triathlons, even people using it as birthday wishlists and wedding gift lists.

Really?

But asking all the time for action instead of for cash. And there's a menu of actions that their friends can then pick from on our site on DoNation. We call them do actions, and they can make a pledge to do one of those. Alternatively, and actually most of our users come through this route, an organization creates a campaign saying, we care about sustainability, what are you going to do to do your bit? And their employees are then responding to that and making pledges. They might have teams competing against each other to see which team can make the most pledges. We measure how much carbon is saved by each one of those pledges, and water and waste as well. And so you can see which team has saved the most carbon, how much has the company saved overall, and they can have targets and things, which is really nice.

Okay, and what sort of companies do you have working with you? I know that you— Pret is—

Pret a Manger, yeah, they ran a campaign earlier this year around Earth Day, which was super successful with teams in offices all across the world competing against each other. We've worked with a lot of B Corps, which is great. Love working with fellow B Corps, and they always really get it, and their employees are always that much more enthusiastic about taking part. Gives them a way to feel like they're part of the B Corp movement and being the change. Okay. We have worked with Network Rail as a new client this year, which has been quite exciting in a— it's not the usual suspects for sustainability programs, I would say. You know, we've worked with the likes of Innocent Drinks and Ella's Kitchen and Triodos and these brands who people go, oh, of course they'd be doing something like this. But yeah, Network Rail people don't hear often. Yeah, of course, of course they're—

And do you have to be a certain size? Do you— I mean, do you— can it be any size?

No, no, not at all. We set up the platform with the aim of making sustainability and employee engagement accessible to all sorts of teams, no matter what their size. There are other tools out there that help with employee engagement that you know, the entry cost of it is thousands of pounds, so clearly it's only going to be accessible to companies with sustainability teams and budgets. But most people in the UK work for SMEs. I think it's really important to engage them. And so we've set it up in a way entry cost is £10 a month. We see a lot of small teams and organizations with 10, 20 people. employees taking part. I think probably the sweet spot, well, kind of 50 to a few hundred is where it's very quick to sign up, and we tend to see kind of 60% engagement around that size. Obviously, as companies get larger, getting them signed up, it's a bigger program, but can be super effective too.

Brilliant, that's a brilliant idea. I love it, absolutely love it. So what kind of made you start DoNation? What was the catalyst for it? Like, how did you get into it?

So what was that?

It is quite random, I guess. It's random for me.

Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's just an out-there idea, which is awesome. It's funny, I've been working on it for 9 years now, so it's anything but out there for me. But I guess it was originally, yeah. It all came about when I decided to cycle with a friend from London to Morocco. I just finished a master's in environmental technology, and I've been looking at behavior change and pledge schemes during my thesis for that. So I was very aware of the importance of behavior change and the power of pledging in encouraging behavior change and long-term behavior change if done right. But all too often, Turns out it's not quite done right, got a bad rep. But yeah, so I was passionate about that. Meanwhile, decided to cycle to Morocco. I felt uncomfortable asking people for cash. I saw it as an opportunity to raise sponsorship and do something for the environment, following that kind of traditional model of, hey, I'm doing this challenge, please donate cash towards this great charity. But yeah, I figured the environment actually needed our action more than it needed our cash. And so came up with this idea to ask people to support us by pledging to cycle to work. We're cycling to Morocco, can you cycle to work once a week? Or eat a bit less meat? Or we're going to be sleeping in a tent, how about you turn your thermostat down? And giving them— so we gave a big range of options that they could pick from, so hoping that it wouldn't come across too preachy because I was a bit nervous about that. But people just loved it. People loved being part of our challenge and actually having the impetus and the nudge to get on and do something for the environment that they'd really been wanting to do for a long time. They just hadn't quite got around to it. So yeah, that is where the idea came from and it kind of snowballed from there.

Was it, was it good? Was it hard? Had you done cycles like that before? Was it, was it hard?

The furthest I'd cycled was from our local train station home to my parents, which even then I thought that was a bit of a mad thing to do. It was 15 kilometers. So, so yeah, it was a challenge, but we just took each day as it came and slowly built it up and built it up. We weren't rushing. We met some amazing people and saw some incredible views and Yeah, it was a pretty amazing experience.

Did you plan it? I was hesitant to ask. I mean, as in, did you know which route you were going to take, or were you literally just like, right, let's get to try and get to this part today?

We roughly planned it. We figured we'd aim to take about 2 months, that we should be able to do it within 2 months, and we'd go down the coast of France and through the middle of Spain. We had— it was before the days of— well, I think smartphones existed, but we didn't have them. And we had about 5 pages of the Michelin Road Map of Europe photocopied, and that was our map. And as we went, we stayed with— we were wild camping most of the way, or we stayed in people's houses through a website called Warmshowers. Pretty dodgy name, but It's like Couchsurfing but for cyclists, right? Um, and so met loads of really avid cyclists all along the route who were able to tell us about the best routes locally and where we must go, where we should avoid.

That's brilliant.

Took each day as it came. And yeah, that's great. That's kind of freeing.

And what— I mean, you mentioned just now that you got— you did a Master's in sustainability.

Yeah.

What got you interested in sustainability and the environment?

You know what, I think the, the thing that first got me hooked on it, or really even educated me about what it was, was a sustainability pledge, very fittingly, at university. I did a year abroad in Vancouver at University of British Columbia. which was a great place. And whilst Canada itself may not be a leader in sustainability, BC and Vancouver really is. It feels like a very green, aware place. And the University Sustainability Society put a pledge out there, had a campaign during Green Week where they asked people to make a pledge to incorporate sustainability into their career decisions. through the future. And a friend asked me to sign this. I was like, what's sustainability? What are you talking about? And she gave me the spiel and I was like, yeah, makes sense. And I signed away and it stuck with me. I wish I could get back in touch with the people that signed that, that created that, because yeah, it definitely, definitely had an impact. Obviously, yeah, there are other things along the way too, but Was that your first degree?

Was that— so that wasn't in sustainability then?

No, that was in biology, evolutionary biology. So a natural kind of link-in, and, you know, I was studying the vulnerability of our ecosystems and how species have evolved around these kind of climate changes over time and just the interconnectedness of everything, which I think gave me an appreciation of quite what an issue we're facing here and how interconnected our world is and how every action that we take has an impact somewhere, either good or bad, and we need to consider that.

So you were already interested in it really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a knowledge, and I was brought up on a farm, and so yeah, I interest was there, it just— I didn't know about it as a—

That's totally relevant to me. I did a— my first degree was hospitality management, which is not environmental at all, but the thesis I did was how people perceive the sport they undertake within the Cairngorm region when it comes down to the environment. So not what the effects are of sport within the Cairngorms, but how do people think skiing is worse for the environment than walking or mountain biking?

Okay.

At the time, I used— it was an excuse for me to go snowboarding in Aviemore. That was, that was the shallower reason. But then you look back on it and go, okay, that was a shallow reason at the time, but that was a pretty weird thing. So I was obviously interested in the environment without even thinking about it.

Yeah. You know what I mean?

It's kind of weird, isn't it, if you look back at what you've done over time and go, actually, that actually did path my way to a career. Like you said, you grew up on a farm, you know, you did a biology degree. You kind of look back at all the steps and the things that you did as a child.

Yeah.

It's funny.

Makes sense, yeah.

So what do you— to our listeners, and is there any advice? You've obviously seen quite a lot of companies now become, or try to become, and become environmental and do things. Have you seen any campaigns and stuff that you've gone, wow, that's absolutely amazing, that's really, really, really pushed the way forward? I know I'm slightly putting you on the spot here.

I mean, I see a lot, I do see a lot of a load of different companies and how they talk about sustainability. It's from where I come from, it's always the internal-facing side, it's the It's the engagement side and how do they get their wider employee base excited by and acting on sustainability. And to me, the wow factor there that really differentiates the campaigns that are super successful from those that, to be honest, in a lot of cases talk about doing it, talk about doing it, talk about it, and never quite have the time to actually get on and do it, which happens all too often, is the ability to get green champions, people who kind of let go of sustainability sometimes, to people who, for whom it's not in their job remit. And giving some agency to often quite young junior people who really care. They might be in the sales team, they might be an engineer, they might be in the finance team, but they've got a real passion. for the environment and for our planet. And sure, they're not going to be the people necessarily to do the bigger jobs that a sustainability team is tasked with, like sorting out the supply chain and changing the energy suppliers and installing more efficient equipment and all of that. That's not, that's not their specialty. But what those people are really well placed to do is get their colleagues on board and engage people. And for us, yeah, the really successful campaigns are when sustainability managers maybe give the, yeah, sure, let's— okay, we'll sign off and let you go ahead with this donation or this pledge campaign, but you, the environmental champions, run with it, and letting them, giving them the agency and the tools to do that. can be amazing, and it can open so many more doors for the environmental team. So an example, actually, like an outcome of that, that within Network Rail we were talking about earlier, they ran a campaign, all of their employees, yeah, making their pledges. One of those employees was the director, one of the directors, and he pledged to use reusable water bottles. And in doing that, you know, he's then more alert and aware of the water bottle use. And he goes to one of their sites on the track and sees stacks of water bottles. And they're giving out hundreds of thousands a day to employees, or a week. This is ludicrous. Why are we doing this? We need to change this. And so he went then to the environment manager and said, look, we need to change this. I'm making a pledge. We're going to get rid of plastic water bottles with our team. That's something she'd been wanting to do for ages, but yeah, you know, hadn't had the authority to do. So it can unlock doors, just getting people bought in on a personal level.

Yeah, I guess it's just opening eyes, isn't it? When you look— when, say, I go into a company, people go, so what kind of skills have you got? And I don't think. But all we— all I do know is anyone that kind of does what we do, you know, for a living, as in you and I and Green Element, is we just kind of look at things with environmental eyes. So rather than be specialists, we automatically— like the example you've just given, he automatically walked in and went, oh, why are we using all these water bottles?

Yeah. I'd not noticed them before, but with that, yeah, those lenses on, yeah.

That's cool. So if you want— if our listeners want to get started and understand how to be more sustainable, what would you suggest that they do with your hat of DoNation on? Obviously join DoNation.

Obviously, I mean, go to wearedonation.com and create a campaign. But it depends where they're coming from and what stage of the journey they're at. I mean, I think the B Corp— you and I are both— well, DoNation and Green Element are both B Corps. And I'm a huge advocate of that and the environmental— even if you don't think as a company you can become a B Corp right away, going through the assessment, which is free, perhaps just starting off with the environmental section, if that's what you're interested in improving, going through those assessment questions will be a great way to highlight What you are and aren't doing?

Actually, at the moment you can go to Scotland Can Be.

Oh yeah, if you're— yeah.

The initial questions are on there. That's a really— that's actually a shortcut way through.

Cool, Scotland Can Be. It's Scottish Climate Week at the moment as well, so let's hope that there's lots more people doing that right now.

You know what, I shouldn't admit this, but I didn't know.

Nor did I until this week. It's out there publicly. I missed an opportunity there. We've seen a few companies Scotland, great campaigns this week. I was like, oh, why is this? Oh yeah, it's an opportunity there.

I've got a list of— and I don't think that's on it actually— of all the days, kind of environment days around Jordan Centre. And I mean, I live in Scotland and I didn't know that. It's kind of bad, but it also, it does highlight that we don't, you know, this A, there's quite a lot of it. Yeah. B, we don't—

like, how—

who tells people what?

So much of the environmental problem is a communications one, and that's— I mean, that's inevitable. It's just there's a lot to communicate to people, and how do we make sure they get the important messages anyway?

I guess that's what you're all about, isn't it? Is a part of that communications.

You're a puzzle. When it comes down to the specific actions and the pledges people make, like, yeah, the communications we cover, and because you don't— not everyone can be an expert, so hopefully take that bit of work off people's hands.

So what would be one thing you want people to do after this podcast? What would be a takeaway that you want people to do?

Go to wearethenation.com and create a campaign!

Brilliant.

No, I think, I mean, ultimately, I suppose that is what I would love people to do, because that's what I built it for, is to be used and to build impact. And the best way any individual can create and have an impact on the environment, any individual or business, is by encouraging people around them to take action. Obviously, to take action themselves and show leadership, but But also go more widely than that and get your people or your customers to take action. So yeah, that's cool.

Well, thank you very much for today. It's been great. And yeah, I— well, we see each other all the time at B Corp retreats, and I don't know if you should— the B Corp conferences, of course.

Yes.

Yeah, it's a conference we're going to, not a retreat.

Yeah, unconferenced. Yeah.

Awesome. Thank you so much for today. That's brilliant.

Thank you. Thanks for your, yeah, questions and time.

Yeah, so I'll cut it off there.

Okay, cool.

It's been recording since we started.

Okay, I hope there wasn't too much— well, as I say, most people probably listen— screen movement.

Oh no, don't worry, don't worry. I've realized now that my— every time I even touch my desk, everything starts going like that.

Yeah, it— mine's just not on my desk, it's like balanced on a book, which is the problem.

Anyway.

It's been really funny starting this podcast stuff. It was Charlie that kind of got us to do it, and she kept going, oh, you need to do it once a week. And I was like, no way, once a month, absolutely no way we'll do it once a week. We're currently booked up. We've got podcasts now until mid-January.

Oh wow.

Already through. And I'm a bit like, oh, we could actually do 2 a week, but I'm not doing 2 a week.

How— I mean, recording them obviously is a bit of work and lining them up. I imagine promoting them is—

So we— I've pretty much got that down. I went on one of Rav's courses.

Yeah, nice.

He taught me how to put all the intros and the outros and all that kind of stuff together using Adobe Premiere Elements, and it's actually really easy.

Yeah. But then promoting it and like getting people to listen, how do you do that? Is it just—

You put it on iTunes. Just put it on iTunes. And then we've got Lisbon, Lisbon something, I don't know. There are a number of platforms that you can put them on, and then those platforms feed through to iTunes and not SoundCloud. But it's actually way more complicated than you'd have thought. Because if you said to me, how many podcast people do you have? The way to work it out is the maximum amount people have downloaded per day. And then what you do is you go down to when you actually release your podcast and you go in between, and you take the number in between as the number of people, because everyone subscribes on different platforms. And so there's naturally no way that you can find out how many subscribers you have because they get fed through to so many different— it's really, it's, um, yeah, it's, it's not the easiest.

Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, you just put paste, paste it all together, and then we upload it to Lisbon, and then Lisbon chucks it out to all the other places. Cool.

Well, let me know when it's up and I'll— I will.

Well, I'll be sending you a question, basically a kind of small questionnaire at the end of this, which is a way that you can upload your logos, put in your website details, put in all your Twitter handles and all that kind of anything you want to go on it.

Cool.

It's transcribed and put onto our website as well.

Cool.

By a lovely lady in Kenya.

Ah, nice.

And yeah, so that's a way that you can make— so I then copy and paste those so I know that I'm not getting your website wrong or you're getting the wrong logo. I'll just be getting it from the website otherwise.

Yeah, cool. Okay.

And at that point I'll also be able to tell you when it'll go up.

Great.

I mean, you have— we can, we can put it up really whenever you want, to be honest with you, so I can push you in front of people if you've got a campaign that you want to run.

To be honest, so, so the only campaign that we're specifically kind of running at the moment, if you like, is— or preparing to— is a to do another B Corp push around New Year's resolutions. I think when we talked, I was saying we're going to do something around SDGs and just, just signed off a really big client deal last week, which has been a bit all-encompassing to get it there. And as a result, I couldn't focus my time on— most of the B Corp deals are like £30 a month for us, and this was orders of magnitude above that. I was like, where do I put my priority?

That makes a lot of sense.

So, so I kind of slipped. And also it seemed like it just was quite a hard time to promote it to people. And to be honest, January will be too, because Christmas falls before it. Just when you want to be getting people kind of signed up is Christmas and New Year. But I, I think if I start promoting it quite like now, Mm-hmm. we should get a good buzz. BWB have said yes, they're on board. Ella's Kitchen are on board. Cotswolds Fair signed up this week, so they should be on board then. If you guys can come on, that would be great.

Yeah, we will. Sean's— Sean, I've told Sean. I've got a to-do list the size of a mountain, and part of my to-do list is writing a job spec for someone helping me, and I still I've got to get around to it because the sooner I get around to that, the sooner I'm going to go.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just put a job spec together yesterday, which is exciting. First time I've done that in a few years. But it's digital marketing.

So people work from, obviously, remotely?

Yeah, remotely. Martin, our CTO, he's now Edinburgh-based.

Crazy.

Yeah. And I'm obviously out here in Germany, but We're meeting in London next week, and so someone who can meet us in any of those places maybe once every 2 months. But other than that, we're working.

How long has Martin been in Edinburgh?

A month.

Okay, and he's just moved up here?

Yeah, he was doing a master's in, in Bangor last year. So yeah.

Get in touch with me.

Yeah.

Because I can also introduce him to Fran and a load of other B Corps up here.

Cool.

I'll network him into the network because everyone's been so good to me. We've— I've only been here for 2 and a half years and I've got to know so many people, just people like Fran. And Fran in particular, I've got to say, Fran was brilliant. She just went, Will, come to this, come to that, and has introduced me to loads and loads and loads of people. And it's been It's been really nice, actually, because it's so about community.

Yeah. Well, he loves that. He's your— in one sense, he's your typical techie, right? He's not— I don't know how he'd fare at a B Corp type. You know, he's not an extrovert. He's a typical techie, I think, is all I need to say. But on the other hand, he does— he used to run Clean Web London, which is like an environmental techie meetup group, and he does like to kind of— yeah, he's passionate about the environment. He's actually— so his master's was in forestry, and he is setting up on the side of doing DoNation, he's setting up a business using tech to help foresters maintain— I don't really know, I'm gonna find out more next week. So he's funnier. Like, I'm— yeah, he would love to meet people in Edinburgh, I'm sure. He's not very proactive. That's what I think I need to say. Like, not proactive. Hey, yeah, let's go meet up and do this.

I'll push to meet him then.

Cool. Okay.

Because at the end of the day, it's another way for you, for you as DoNation, to network.

Oh, for sure. Yeah, and we've got lots of— so one of our kind of— one of our most exciting clients in that they've done really cool things and opened a lot of doors for us is the 2050 Climate Group.

Oh, I know exactly who you're talking about. I'm talking— I'm their keynote speaker on Saturday.

Oh, nice. Yeah, nice.

I don't know who they are. They contacted me about 3 weeks ago. I've got a feeling that someone pulled It's been quite short notice, and I was away last week and got back Tuesday night, so I'm a bit like, I don't know.

What's the event?

I don't know, it's for the day. I should know.

They have like, yeah, they basically, they're awesome, and they, but it's run by, well, like a community, not a community, a committee of of about 30 people, all on the side of their jobs. So—

Yeah, yeah.

It seems to work, and it is amazing some of that, like how they're building a community of young people across Scotland who are all passionate about, and are now knowledgeable thanks to the programme, about sustainability in all walks of life and jobs. And yeah, it's really cool. For us, the first year they ran a campaign on DoNation and it was a case of going, okay, so we've learned the program is part leadership skills and part sustainability skills.

Yeah.

You know, they're trying to develop leadership and sustainability amongst the leaders of tomorrow. And so actually running DoNation campaigns within teams was a great way to communicate on sustainability whilst demonstrating leadership.

Very cool.

And it kind of combined the two and it was really nice. And off the back of that, a load of other projects have been born using DoNation and a load of other companies that they work for signed up. And then the next year they ran another campaign, but because the committee changes all the time, I've never got a freaking clue who I'm meant to be contacting. And I saw this week for Climate Week, they're running a campaign to get people to pledge on social media. Why aren't you using your DoNation profile?

Like, there's no consistency in Yeah, anyway, when I, when I go there, I'm— I know what I'm talking about. It's climate change risks with companies. So what risks do companies have? I've just looked up the speaker's brief and it's a Young Leaders Development Programme, Module 3. So they're all— it's obviously a part of their—

Yeah, so each I'm trying to remember the— they have different themes, or at least in the past it was, there was like the energy module and then resources, and I can't remember how they split it through the year. So they come together once every quarter, say, and meet and have a day workshop on sustainability issues around energy, and then maybe the next month they come together and have a leadership workshop, and then the next quarter they come back. Yeah? Yeah, yeah, they break it all down like that.

That's exactly what this is. I think it's one of those that you've just said. Yeah, it'll be good.

It's a great program and some really, really committed people in it. So if you're— in fact, put your job spec together before that and you'll find someone.

Yeah, well, I was, I was exactly thinking, I was thinking that. And where are you registered?

London is our office still.

Because if— would you consider changing it to Scotland?

To Martin?

If Martin— is Martin fine with you, or is he a big— is he really— the reason why I'm saying this is because one, what I've now noticed is we've had— we've actually had quite good support from Scottish Enterprise, and the networking capabilities that Martin has by living in Edinburgh is Phenomenal. Like, in the past—

So many of our clients are Scottish.

See, I've always been a bit skeptical living in London on getting grants and stuff because I was a bit like, I can't be bothered, takes too long. But moving here and people are going, well, just, just apply because actually you've got a good idea, it should work, and it's taken, I would say, half an hour to an hour. Apply, and I've got £5,000. And it's not that they're trying to give money away, it's just that they've made the process pretty damn easy. And what they've got is a good system.

Great.

But I mean, Green Element's registered in London, but I seem to have— so you may well be able to still get the funding with Martin in Edinburgh. But definitely look into that because it doesn't only just open up doors for funding, they actually network you into— one of the big— I've got a meeting in a couple of hours with the person who runs Chamber of Commerce for West Lothian, and it's come through the network that's come through the network, and that's what Scotland's really good at.

Yeah.

And you may find it really useful with Martin up there.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I found the network there. I guess it's a size that the network is strong because it's small enough, you know. London can be so big almost that, well, there's always little connections which helps and dots you can join. Whenever I'm talking to clients in Scotland, So I can see that, that everyone knows everyone.

Yeah, I introduced Fran to a guy called Mike, and it wasn't embarrassing, but both of them were like, yeah, hate to say it, Will, but Fran was like, my husband went to university with Mike's brother. And I went, oh, that was 30 years ago. And I was like, right, so you know each other pretty well? Yeah, we've known each other for about 40 years now. Okay, because I mean, that happens all the time. I was responding to an email of 4 people and I didn't realize that this Marianne lady knew Lucy. And I was like, you two know each other? We've known each other for years. I realized how close everything is.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's funny. Actually, one of the things I need to do today is respond to an email from someone at Edinburgh University who have signed up, they're using DoNation, but it's the alumni department that signed up, which is not our usual client kind of position within a university. And they had heard about it through Google, which is also never the case. And then I was like, oh, did you know that Edinburgh students have been using it? They've been running a campaign thanks to the 2050 Climate Group. thing. There was one of our most successful university campaigns was at Edinburgh, but just through the students last year. And he was like, no, I didn't. So I connected them.

Wow.

Do you realize that I'm an Edinburgh alumni myself? He's like, no. And then one of my best friends from my master's works in the sustainability team at Edinburgh University. So I was able to join all of those dots for them internally. None of them had spoken to each other before. And now they're— because I'm an alumni, obviously, and they're at the alumni department, they're like, yes, Goldust, we can do a little interview.

Oh, okay.

I'm a bit nervous. Oh yeah, I've got to respond to that interview. It's one of those things that if it goes in the alumni kind of newsletter, so many of my friends or people I haven't seen for years will read. And whenever I see people I know in those things, I'm always like, oh God, what are you doing? It's so uncool.

Useful.

It is useful and everybody does it.

It's definitely the type of people that you want. Yeah, Laura, my other half, went to Edinburgh and Manchester Metropolitan, and the story— our difference in stories and difference in the type of people that went to university is quite big. Yeah, cool. Listen, good to talk to you.

You too. You're not going to be at the social down in London next month? Oh, this month, are you?

When's that?

17th.

Oh, actually, funny enough, possibly. I didn't even know. I didn't know anything about it.

It's sold out, so I— if you're not a— yeah, well, you can always message me.

No, I'm not. I'm not going, and I actually may disappear. I've got a meeting that finishes about 3, so I may actually try and go back. I'm in London the day before.

Okay, well, you're not at the Business Green the day before, are you?

Yeah, thinking about it. Are you going?

Yeah, I managed to get a free ticket, so I'm in London then anyway, and I was like, oh, I haven't been to a conference like that in years. I used to spend a lot of time at them, and now— yeah.

Because I don't know if it's going to be any good. That's interesting that you're going because I got They emailed me and got for a free ticket, and you always— I'm always skeptical. Yeah, giving out free tickets because I'm like, do you— is— are you really desperate for people to come?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. But a couple of people that I would like to meet with anyway are going because their companies are sponsors. So, uh, I'm in London, so I figured I would go and I can— I'll have my laptop, and if it's shit, I can just go and sit in the corner and work.

Fine. Okay, you've kind of sold it to me. I may go.

Yeah, I mean, for me, it's because also living here, I don't get to do any networking. People— someone the other day was like, oh, is DoNation still going? I thought you'd left and shut it down. No, I've got to keep it on people's radar.

Yeah, I guess that would be part of it, wouldn't it?

Yeah, so if I get an opportunity to schmooze and network Um, I left it out.

Cool. All right, well, maybe see you there. Yeah, see you on the 16th. All right, cool. All right, bye-bye.