E037 - Paul McGillivray from Remote

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Thank you very much for listening to the Green Element Podcast. We really value your opinion, and we're wondering if you could take part in a survey that helps make this podcast better, please. www.greenelement.co.uk/podcastsurvey. I hope you enjoy this episode. Today, we've got Paul on from Remode. He runs a brilliant purpose-driven software company that— well, he runs it with his wife, actually, Jeannie, and formidable team that are trying to change the way we I guess, um, look at software, and he works for purpose-driven organizations to further that purpose and really accelerate that purpose growth. I really hope you enjoy the conversation. He goes quite deeply into personal stuff and talks about his professional journey. through remote, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Welcome to the Green Element Podcast, Paul. Thank you very much for joining us today.

Thanks, Will, it's a pleasure.

And I'm really excited to hear more about your business and what exactly you do do. We've just been talking about how you help purpose-driven businesses build more purpose and do better. So what is it that you do?

Cool. So me and my wife, Jeannie, we run a software development company. At our core, we're custom software developers. We started off as website developers. We moved very quickly into online applications and then relatively more recently mobile apps and all that kind of thing. So we are interested in exponential technologies. We're interested in moving people and their processes onto the internet, onto a platform that can be exponentially scaled, so that good people can do more good. We multiply their impact using software.

Okay. So can you give us an example of— so that, yeah, so that people that— if I'm being honest, so that I understand more?

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, that was a bit of a jargon-filled explanation. So, okay, let me tell you about a couple of the projects that we're working on and give you an idea. Okay, we've released an app called Stroke Active, and Stroke Active connects all the therapists who help someone through the recovery of a stroke.

Right.

So for example, so if you were to have a stroke in this country, the NHS would do an amazing first aid job. First on the scene, they will help you get better for a few weeks. And as soon as you're up on your feet again, or, you know, not in an emergency situation, you're left to your own devices really, which means that only those people who can really afford the therapy centers can go through what actually is an essential recovery. process for stroke patients. So our client came to us with an idea of providing a whole load of resources that would help carers of stroke patients to actually go through all the levels of therapy that they need to go through in order to actually recover fully from stroke, because that information wasn't freely available. When we started working with that client, we realized that actually exponential technology— so when I say exponential technology, I'm just Being— it's a posh way of saying computer software sitting in the cloud, which means that we can scale out really quickly.

Okay.

That's my take on it. Artificial intelligence, machine learning, all those kinds of things.

Okay.

What we realized was actually what was essential for stroke patients' recovery was for, first of all, the carers to be able to find the speech therapists, the physiotherapists, all the different types of people that are essential to help on the road to recovery, but also to help them connect together so that each of them can see the different advice each other are giving. They can then set plans, tasks, record videos. So a physiotherapist might go through a therapy session with the stroke patient, and then they can watch back the video of that as they practice the moves and techniques over the week, and the other therapists can see what is being done and what is being said. So there's a synergy is created through therapists that may otherwise not have met each other or known about it. And what we're finding is that by taking something that's done normally by going to a therapist, visiting them once a week, twice a week, or whatever, actually moving online means that you get more touch points, more ongoing care, and a more connected, holistic route to recovery. And the response we've received for that app has been phenomenal. Actually, I'm not sure about whether I'm allowed to say where it's going, but it's looking awesome. You know, it could change the lives of thousands of people.

Well, I can— my other half is an occupational therapist, works with people with special needs, particularly Asperger's and autism. And listening to her talk about her job and You know, how it's exactly the same. You know, they've got different people coming in and they all have to write these reports and they all have to read the reports of what it's— so what you've done is you could potentially just move it across to any kind of therapeutic profession, couldn't you? By the sounds of it.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, totally. That's, that's the plan for sure. We realized that just as we were finishing, we're like, hang on, this doesn't need to be stroke patients. What we've got here is an amazing way of connecting therapists, you know, for the recovery of all types of patients. So yeah, I'm sure Stroke Active won't be the, won't be the only brand that rolls out there? Yes, totally. So that, so that shows one aspect of what we do. So what we're doing there is using software to connect people for good.

Hmm.

But the other side of what we do is helping companies that are doing good to do more good. And we do that by going into companies and looking at their business processes, their systems, and finding out how they do what they do and And seeing how much of that we can automate. So the theory is that— and this is my theory, I'm not going to say that this is how it's done or anything, this is the way we see it at the moment, right? That we've all got superpowers. Yeah, we've all got something that— and this is what we were chatting a little bit about before we started this recording. So we've all got something that we find that we're really good at, that we're naturally good at, that we enjoy doing. And we assume that everyone else is as good at those things and enjoys those things as much because it comes so naturally to us. And all of a sudden we find out, hey, do I have to really explain that to you? Because I thought that was obvious. I thought everyone knew that.

Hmm.

Now what we, what we find, what I found definitely, is once we can get a sense of where those superpowers lie and we can lean in hard to those superpowers, What we end up with is a potential for real transformation.

Purpose.

So I can do this thing. Like, with me, what I'm interested in is seeing models, seeing systems, see the— seeing the way things fit together and how they could fit together and how they could be made more efficient, more productive, more effective, and create more impact. And I seem to be able to see those systems and the potential of those systems and explain those systems to people to help them be the best version of themselves, or so be that an organization or a person. And so I might be chatting to a friend or a relative and they might say, hey, I've got this particular problem. And I'll say, hey, have you heard of this, this, this, and this? If you do those things, that problem will be completely leveled up. And that's what we do when we go into businesses. We say, hey, look at those processes there. You don't have to spend your time doing that. We could automate 80, 90, 100% of this, and then you can spend your time in your purpose and your superpower doing the thing you were born to do.

Right.

So there's kind of a meta thing going on here, really, that the superpower is to help other people work in their superpower. So what we find is that when, when we know what we can do and when we can find out how to use that skill for a greater good, then our lives have meaning and purpose and energy. And so this alignment of our natural abilities and a purpose for a greater good becomes immensely powerful, and we start finding that we're attracting other people that are doing good, and we start finding that we can do things that we didn't, we didn't dream we could do beforehand because those opportunities appear. We've met, you know, we're speaking because we met on a purpose-driven level, really, you know, on a project that we really want to make a difference with. And I found this over and over since we really started leaning hard into— we work with purpose, we want meaning in our lives, and we want what we do to have a greater impact in the world. You know, we're software developers, we could be making Flappy Birds or whatever, you know, but we're not interested in, you know, the quick buck. We're interested in how can what we do make a real impact.

Okay, and so have you— is this something you've always done? You say that The Remote has been around for 20 years. Have— 20 years ago, were you— did you have the same ethos and were you doing the same thing, or do you think it's changed over time, or Take us on the journey from the beginning, because a lot of people listening to this will be wanting to understand how and how to do what you do and what have you learned along the way. You know, how— what's that journey been like?

Okay, so yes, we're 20 years old this year, Remo. So the journey starts a way back, so I'll give you the abbreviated version, but We started building websites. So 1999, all of a sudden people were going, what is this thing called the internet? And actually, should I have a website for my business? And I was one of those people. We'd started a record label, Jeannie and I, and I'm a musician. That's one of my side things. I love to produce music. And we were about to launch this record label, and I was like, should we find out what this internet thing is? Yeah, what sort of music? Oh, what sort of music? Electronica. Back then it was hip-hop, drum and bass. I still make a bit of hip-hop.

Oh, brilliant. This is a conversation we can have later then. Awesome.

Nowadays I make sort of hip-hop and downtempo electronica, that kind of thing.

I'm a huge Hospitality Records fan.

Oh yeah, yeah, they're brilliant. Me too. Yeah, fantastic. Okay, well, definitely, let's put that conversation to the side. Yeah, awesome. So that was what I was pretty convinced was going to be my career. And then we had a distribution deal with Universal Records. We had 10 artists signed to the roster. We were just organizing a massive UK tour. And I was like, yeah, okay, I'm going to teach myself how to build a website for the record label and for the artists. So I've always been a computer geek, you know, when I was I had a ZX Spectrum. My gran gave me a ZX Spectrum. I learned to program BASIC and program little games in that. I just absolutely loved it. And the music I'd make with computers too, you know, so that computers are in my DNA. But I pretty much by that point abandoned the idea of computers being part of my career outside of music production. But we made these, made these websites, and actually they were pretty cool for 1999 websites. And We were organizing this tour and a journalist came to interview me for Hip Hop Connection magazine to talk about this tour. And he said, by the way, who did your website? Because it's awesome. And I'm organizing a DJ battle, I need a website for it. And I was like, I'll build you a website, no problem. Then my dad wanted one for his shop, then a friend wanted one for his pottery, and all of a sudden we were making websites full-time. And we didn't release a record until about 3 years ago.

Did the tour ever happen?

No, the tour didn't happen. Actually, one, one date, one date, the Ministry of Sound, we played there, which was actually a pretty amazing night. But that was it.

Yeah.

Yeah, totally. So for about a year, I was just making pure HTML websites. Jeannie has a fine art background. She was designing them. I was building them. We picked up a client that we still have called Arts Alive. They were in their first year too, and they set up business just down the road from us. And it felt that was, that, that was our first website for good, as it were, because Arts Alive are an amazing rural touring company. They bring amazing theatre and operatic and musical acts and cinema events to town hall, uh, village halls in the middle of nowhere.

Right.

And they want to bring culture to the people. They don't feel that you should— only people that live in the city should get to experience these things. So that's what they do. And, um, that felt good to do that. And so I think it's, it's part of our nature to want to do something that helps people and feels good and has more purpose than just, I want to sell trainers online or something. And as we grew more, those kind of people were the kind of people we attracted. So after about a year, we built our first online application, which was the world's first searchable materia medica for homeopathic students. So students that were learning homeopathy had to carry around these huge books and they're really expensive. And we built some software that would digitize the 360-odd textbooks that there are for students and allow you to search them by symptom, remedy, and all that, which was no mean feat considering that those books were written over 200 years by different people.

Right.

So they had no order to them, no consistency, but we managed to build that. And so that was our first online application. And again, there's purpose in that too. And from then on, we realized that that was what we wanted to do. We wanted to build online applications. It was something that excited us. We were enabling things, certainly at that point, that simply weren't— hadn't been previously possible before the internet revolution. And we continue to do that. So we move fast, fast forward to now. There was— that was me and Jeannie. Now there are 8 of us in the business, uh, based in Shrewsbury. We've got a lovely office here. We just moved actually to larger premises, and there'll be 10 of us within 2 or 3 months and probably 12 of us by the end of the year. So as we leaned into the purpose-driven stuff and the really trying to help people make an impact, the business has grown and started to really prosper as well.

Great, and so you've— that's really good to hear that you've seen a growth in, I guess, growth in purpose, which is what I would imagine most people want to hear. But, and it kind of makes sense when you think about the fact that 92% of millennials want to buy off an ethical consumer. So we're living in a world where where— I was talking to someone yesterday, I was talking to the Big Issue Invest, and he was born in 1980 and I'm born in '75, and I'm apparently 2 or 3 years off being a millennial, which kind of, if you think about it, actually means that the majority of the workforce are purpose-driven people as a whole. Because, you know, I've got another 20 years, 25 years until I retire, but I've been working for 25 years, so I'm already over halfway through my working, kind of working life in inverted commas. And there will be more and more people as you get, you know, younger than me that will be more thinking about what it is. And I know that the— I think the law, legal professions are really struggling at the moment. They're not shouting about it, but people don't want to be a partner anymore. They're like, I want to be a lawyer and I love being a lawyer, but I don't need to earn £2 million a year. I'm happy on a decent salary and working enough hours, but not working 24 hours a day and never seeing my family.

And it's definitely— I think that that's spot on. Yeah, spot on. So I think it's something like 90% of businesses that turned purpose-driven will report an increase in employee engagement, customer engagement, increase in profits. So whereas as we were growing up, we would have thought, well, yeah, the primary thing is profit first, and it would be nice if we could do some good— maybe I'll do some good with that money, take up philanthropy when I'm a billionaire— but the industry has been all about, yeah, profit first. But now what we're seeing is, and especially I think you're exactly right, Millennials— there's this stigma about millennials. They're entitled, they won't do proper work, they're lazy, and all that. But it's not that.

No.

It's that they want meaning in their lives. They've got their basic needs met, so they're at the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. They want meaning in their lives, and so they want to know that their lives have a point, have a purpose. They want to know that they can make a difference. And that isn't just about what we do when we step into the workplace. It's about where we spend our money, who we buy from. And so we're— it's not just a, well, when we're making money, we make purpose. We— sorry, when we're making money, we have purpose. It's now if we want to make money and if we want to survive as businesses in this next age, we actually have to be purpose-driven.

And it adds a new dynamic to your equations as well, to your bottom line. So I mean, hence the expression triple bottom line, or they're now talking about quadruple bottom line. Have you heard that expression?

People, purpose, profit— what's the fourth?

Planet.

Planet, of course. Yeah, beautiful.

Because funnily enough, well, I knew you were gonna ask me, and I was like, oh no, I don't know what that fourth one is. As soon as you said it, in a way I was like, oh, Oh, actually, I think I do know what a fourth is. But I think it's— I don't know about you, but it really, really impacts our business. And we actually watch it from a financial point of view of how much money we are taking away from the business from profits. And it's really interesting when you actually do the maths of what a significant amount of money you could be making more But do you want to? And do you need to? I don't know. I love it. I love, I love the questions that come out on the back of all of that purpose-driven stuff. And I don't know.

I really think it's reversing this whole thing of actually we have to be purpose-driven and we have to put the planet first, because if we don't, for a start, none of us will be around. very shortly. And also, we won't attract that— just as you've said with the legal profession— we won't attract the kind of people we need to run a successful business if we're not making sure that, yeah, we care for the environment. Let's start right here. Let's care for our internal environment. Am I making a difference? Do I feel that at the end of my life, I'll have led a balanced and good life? Do I have that peace of mind? So there's my internal environment, then there's the office. How do I feel stepping into the office? How do the guys around me feel stepping into the office? Have we got a toxic environment with people putting people down, or are people stressed because they're not achieving their targets, or all these things that we see so often, especially in the larger companies? Or is there a good, supportive workplace?

Yeah.

Do we know where we're aiming? Do we know why we're doing what we're doing? Do we, do we have a real purpose? Do our lives have meaning, or are we just trying to fill our safe full of cash? And then how do we get to work? How are we— what kind of energy are we consuming? What does our life look like? Are we living lightly, or are we gonna leave the planet with a charred hole where we were sitting for the for our lives. And so it's beautiful to me because it starts inward, but then it rapidly expands outwards. And of course, you know, the whole planet is billions of people hopefully asking those same questions and beginning to behave in that same way. We need to support each other at every level. We need to support the planet at every level.

And I think— well, so how do you think you can influence change? Because you've done a fantastic TED Talk, haven't you? Can you take us through what you were talking about for your TED Talk and take us through how you can feel that you can influence change?

Sure, so the TED Talk last year, the title was Bringing Purpose to Work for Global Impact, and actually we've touched on quite a few of the key concepts there. So Yes, we'd always, we'd always had this sense of wanting to do good, and there's a spiritual side which recognizes that we're not individuals running around out for ourselves, but actually we are one universe operating as one thing with the apparent appearance of individuals competing for the precious resources that are left. When when in your heart you know that actually there's just one living, breathing thing, your attitude changes to life anyway, I think. So there's been that core in my life, but maybe 10 years ago or so, I started to lose my way with that, and I started to get caught up in a life that didn't have meaning, a life that was about the next project, the next project, the, um, looking for money primarily. And there was, there was other stuff going on as well that, that basically made— just made me feel like I didn't really have purpose and I didn't have meaning. And I suffered for that, and I caused suffering for that. I just, you know, I guess this is the classic midlife crisis. And, um, I'd be very surprised if many midlife crises weren't spurred on by exactly the same kinds of feelings. And I got ill, and I got very ill. And 4 years ago, I ended up in hospital, uh, very much on the edge, and was diagnosed with Crohn's disease and was told I wouldn't survive unless I took a cocktail of immune suppressants, which I refused, um, to much to the chagrin of my consultants. But I felt that intuitively, if I was to take a cocktail of immune suppressants for the rest of my life, they would simply be hiding the symptoms. And actually, there was a core thing wrong with me that I needed to look at. And so I turned inward. I was bedbound virtually for 9 months and really went on a period of self-reflection and self-discovery, self-re-discovery really. And it was then that I realized that I needed to make sure that what I did had a higher purpose, that what I did was for a greater good, not just satisfying my, my own needs, but actually, um, I suppose projecting that need outwards to the whole planet. So I need, I, I need things, but actually there are people that need way more than me. And when I did that and brought the company on that journey with me, the company transformed, my life transformed, and the lives of the people in the company transformed. And it was at that point that we decided to just lean into the purpose-driven stuff because we were like, well, how can we make a difference? How can we have an impact? We don't build solar panels, we don't make Tesla cars, you know, we don't do anything to stop climate change, we're not scientists. But we do make software and we do help people become more efficient, more productive, and more effective. And we give people reach and we help people engage. And so all of those things are the tools that people who are doing these things, these purpose-driven things. They need those tools. And so that's when we leaned into that, and that's how the business moved into that purpose-driven direction. So we help others by using software, and those others that we choose to help are the ones that are saving the planet.

Brilliant. That's amazing. And are you okay? Like, have you got any symptoms now, or is it Yeah, I mean, I guess I sort of—

I say this lightly, but Crohn's is an incurable disease. So I suspect on some level I'll be managing it for the rest of my life. But my symptoms now, right now, I feel absolutely normal. And I, you know, I have minor symptoms occasionally. If I get stressed, I get more symptoms. But basically it's like the old-fashioned canary in the coal mine. And I'm still working on it 4 years into to deal with maybe 10 or 15 years worth of serious damage to my body. You know, I think I've got some way to go, but at the same time, I'm living a normal life. I feel great. I think I go to the bathroom more than the usual person, but that's probably the biggest annoyance. You know, I was in pain constantly. I had constant nausea.

I had brain fog.

I couldn't think. I couldn't, um, I couldn't do most of the things that we do. We just totally take for granted. And I was— I went down to 7 stone. I lost—

Oh wow.

It was like ridiculous. Um, so I'm skinny now, but yeah, back then I was, I was very skinny. Um, and that's coming back. I'll go to the gym. I joined a gym last week, you know. I can— it's amazing, you know. I could— at one point I could barely do 4 press-ups. It's It's incredible. And I put it down to just a really powerful connection to what my body is saying to me. I went to an amazing medical herbalist, Fiona Burns, and she prescribed loads of medical herbs along with all sorts of treatments. We did some amazing stuff— craniosacral therapy, kinesiology, matrix reimprinting. It was all stuff looking at the trauma. I did EFT, I learned Reiki, I did that grounding. There's so many amazing things out there. None of them involve chemicals, but all that— what they do involve is really connecting to yourself. And so when, when you're really listening, your body doesn't have to shout. And I believe that my disease certainly was my body shouting and screaming, oh my God, pay attention, you're doing all the wrong things here. So I changed my diet dramatically.

And I guess moving from there and thinking about the world and planet Earth as we know it, with all of what's going on with climate change, you could kind of compare the two?

100%. Yeah, 100%.

We should be listening to what is happening. Why are there wraths of cold going through North America at the moment? You know, what is, what is going on? Are these the symptoms?

And it's just starting to shout. When we were kids, the body was— the body, the planet, same thing— was, was saying, guys, this isn't right. And now it's shouting. Yeah, the hurricanes, the wildfires, that is crazy. You know, the whole war in Syria was triggered because the farmers had to move back into the city because they couldn't grow anything anymore. You know, it's like the body's screaming and The planet's screaming. Yeah, you're totally right. I remember mentioning, I think it was just a couple of weeks ago, to my mum about these wildfires when they were happening. I said, this is climate change, this is global warming really kicking off. My mum said, but Paul, they've been saying this for years. I was like— and she said it as if, you know, bless my mum, I don't mean to put my mum down, but it's a common misconception amongst certain people that this has been going on for years, we'll be fine for another another few decades, but it's not— that's not the case, and it really is shouting, and it is terrifying what might come next if we don't put the brakes on in some way.

Yeah, so I mean, how do you think, or how do you think you could help our listeners to understand how to be more sustainable in their workplace, and what is it that you guys do sustainability-wise? From a company?

So I think, you know, I stole the phrase living lightly earlier on in our conversation, but it really rings true to me. So there's the practical things that we do. We're a software company, so we're not manufacturing anything. So really, our greatest drain on resources is energy. So we have solar panels on the roof, I'm desperately hoping that we'll switch to electric for our vehicles this year. We hire locally, most of the guys walk into work. There's a recognition that the way to live a good life is to live a life that's clean, minimal processed food. We get exercise, we don't eat junk, we recycle, we favor less packaging, less processed, less chemicals. So that's part of our culture. We interview people values first, skills second. And that's worked really well because the actual culture of the company is one of caring and support and And that spreads out. So I suppose really for us, it's about that work environment and making sure that that's a sustainable thing. The way that we work is sustainable, the way that we treat each other is sustainable, and we tread as lightly as we can on the planet. I think our biggest resource is the servers, which we host in the cloud, Microsoft Azure, and Microsoft are making massive steps towards renewable energies themselves. I think they've just launched another solar wind farm and they've got solar panels and so on. Hopefully that'll be— they're carbon neutral at the moment, I believe. I'm hoping that all of the energy will be renewable that we use there. And it certainly is here and it certainly is at home, and we've encouraged all our employees to make sure that they're using renewable energy at home too. So yes, we're at the start of our B Corp journey. We've got a long way to go still, and I'm hoping you can help us with that as well, actually, which is another reason why we connected in the first place.

I completely forgot about that, to be honest with you.

I can't remember what the question was now, but I hope that answered it.

Yeah, I guess you have actually answered it. So what— it was, how can people understand how to be more sustainable? So what's one thing you would like people to do after this podcast?

I think the greatest gift that we can give to ourselves and, and I guess to the planet right now is to undertake, hopefully for everyone, a much less painful and traumatic journey that I went on, but undertake that journey of self-discovery. And by that, I don't mean that in a, in a hippie sense, although, you know, that's— I'm all for that too. But what I mean is actually asking How can I make a difference? How can I find a purpose for the things that I do well that will, that will help the global good? How can I make a difference so that my life has meaning? And how can I encourage others to do the same thing? So if we look back on our lives, we see threads and we especially nowadays, there are so many threads to our careers, to our personal lives, to our passions and hobbies. And what we find when we look underneath the surface of the reason why we do those things is often a why that gets us out of bed in the morning. And when we can go really deeply into that— there's a great book by Simon Sinek, I'm sure you know, called Start with Why. And that starts— there's another one called Body of Work by Pamela Slim as well, which really helped me work this out, to really look at these threads and find out why we do what we do and what fires us up. And when we can find that why and find out how we can serve each other and the planet with that why, then we have a meaning in our lives that lights us up. And if we can begin that, that journey today, then the world will absolutely be a better place tomorrow.

Brilliant. Well, Paul, thank you so much for sharing what journey that you've been on and how you've got to where you've got to today. Thank you so much for your time. Where can we find out more about Remote and what You know, what— where can we find out more about what you're doing, using your services, etc.?

Sure. So the website for Remote is simply remote.online, and I have a personal website as well, paulmcgilvery.com. I guess you'll have show notes for this, so— because no one could spell my name. I'm on Twitter, I'm on Facebook. And so if you basically go to either of those 2 websites, you'll be able to follow, follow that internet rabbit hole to your favorite platform for sure. I'd love to speak to anyone who's interested in the kind of stuff we talked about. I love it. It's my passion.

Okay, cool. Thank you so much, Paul. Thank you for today. Thanks so much for listening. We created this podcast for you, so we'd really appreciate any feedback you want to give us. You can do that by rating. And reviewing on your favorite podcast, or for iTunes, visit www.greenelement.co.uk/apple. If you'd like to keep in touch, then we invite you to join our free Facebook community, which is everything to do with sustainable and ethical business. Lots of daily conversations, themes, and great ideas. A really great place to work and network with like-minded individuals. If you open Facebook and search for The Green Element, hit the group search function, we will let you right in. All of the show notes, any links, any references to the— on this podcast will be featured on our website, greenelement.co.uk. As a special thank you for listening, please head over to www.greenelement.co.uk/podcast2018 And you can pick up a free guide on how to green up and environmentalize your business or organization. That's greenelement.co.uk/podcast2018. Finally, I would like to thank Ben Chatwin for writing the fantastic opening music. He is an amazing artist with a phenomenal following. It was a privilege he said yes to even write it for us. We look forward to seeing you next week and hope you have a wonderful day.