E049 - Dr Michael Groves from Topolytics

Quick word from our sponsor, 51toCarbonZero.com. If you're a CFO or board member staring down CSRD or Scope 3 and thinking, where do we even start? We at Sustainability Solved would point you to 51toCarbonZero.com. They turn complex, fragmented emissions data into something simple and give boards clear, audit-ready visibility on exactly where the reduction opportunities are. It's not another reporting tool that adds work. It's built so the data holds up when your auditor asks the hard questions. If that's a conversation worth having, get in touch with 51tocarbonzero.com, or just drop me a message and I'll point you in the right direction. Right, back to the episode.

So today we've got Mike from Topolytics. It's an absolutely fascinating company. They're trying to map the world waste. Um, he's a— Serial entrepreneur. He has set up a number of different businesses, all within the sustainability sector, and has been doing that for the last 20 years. I'm really looking forward to— I've known him for a few years now, and I'm really looking forward to talking to him and helping you understand more about, about such an amazing character. Hi Mike, welcome to the Green Element Podcast. How are you today?

I'm good, Will, thank you very much. Nice day in Edinburgh for once. It is, it is.

It was gorgeous yesterday. Um, we went for a walk for my other half's 46th birthday, which was lovely. But, um, excellent. Um, so tell us a bit about Topolytics and what you're doing. Um, yeah, tell us a bit about it.

Okay, um, we're trying to optimize the way, um, commercial and industrial waste is managed. And we're doing that with data. So we're trying to acquire and then analyze better data on the sort of generation and the movements and the ultimate fate of commercial industrial waste materials. So we're a sort of data and analytics business. And we're looking at a wide range of different waste streams because we think that waste is a system. It's a system of movements of different materials. Sometimes they intersect, sometimes they go off in different directions, but still, you know, there are challenges with that system, as we've seen recently with stories about stockpiling of clinical waste, stockpiling of plastic waste, etc., etc. So we think a kind of system-level look at the data and the generation of a better data set can help the waste management industry and companies that generate waste to make better decisions about what happens to that material, because still a lot of that material is still going into landfill. And clearly there's a lot of material also then going to energy from waste or refuse-derived fuel, whatever you want to call it. So we think there are opportunities to optimize that system. And so that's top 6. You—

it's also mapping it, isn't it? It's understanding where it all goes because you've done a variety of different projects. I think one with RBS where you mapped all the waste that went around the UK because it literally did go around the UK.

Yeah. So our basic approach to this, you know, sort of looking at the system is to map it. Or geospatial analytics, if you want a fancier term. But nobody understands that, so it's mapping. Yeah, because if you think about it, you've got, you know, in terms of the generation of all that kind of material, it's generated in multiple locations, you know, sort of individual bins, then put into skips, and those skips are then moved somewhere else, and then they may be taken to a materials recovery facility. And from there, they're separated, and then they're sent off to different places for recovery, for recycling, or even obviously for refuse-derived fuel. So that system of movements is really, really complex. And it's really opaque as well, because the waste management industry, it's not renowned for being the most transparent of industries. And obviously, we're seeing some challenges around that. So yeah, So our view is actually looking at it geospatially gives you a much better way to build a data model, to analyze, to visualize, and then to kind of generate some kind of useful kind of insights from that data. And of course, those movements could be local, they could be national, or they could obviously be international as well, as we've seen with challenges around plastics and card that have been sent to China for the last sort of 20 years, but that, you know, that stopped now. So the geography of waste, we think, is really, really crucial to understanding what happens and then to sort of making better decisions about it.

And it will make— it will enable more recycling, won't it, and more reuse?

Yeah, I mean, you know, I do get the question a lot. It's like, well, Mike, that sounds really interesting, but, you know, so what? And of course, what we are ultimately trying to do— I mean, I think ultimately, I guess what You know, we're all of us within this sustainability, within this environmental management, within this resource management space. You know, we are all trying to kind of optimize, you know, the kind of the use of those resources because we have a finite, you know, sort of level of resources globally. So we're all trying to do that. And so ultimately, I guess what we're trying to do is really trying to enable people to reduce the amount of waste that they're generating. But that's— there's a whole bunch of steps before you get to that point. So we're starting with, OK, well, let's look at that system as it stands and try and optimize that, i.e., reduce the amount of material that's just being chucked away. Because that material has a value of sort of £2 trillion a year. being kind of put into landfill sites.

Is that just—

So you can extract some of that value both in terms of the material itself, but also in terms of actually the financial and commercial value of that material, and just kind of optimize that system. So yeah, so if that means we help to drive more recycling, we help to drive remanufacturing, refurbishments, it's really all about trying to maintain that material, or it could be products, you know, it could be assets. at their highest utility, that's kind of what we're about.

Yeah. And you mentioned £2 trillion. Is that just the UK?

No, I think that's a global figure. Yeah, I mean, there's various figures floating around. I mean, McKinsey have done some work on it, looking at trying to put a value on the, you know, based on kind of market prices on the material value that is kind of basically currently put into landfill sites. I mean, I think the numbers The numbers vary, but either way, whichever way you look at it, it's a big number. There's a lot of stuff that's been put into holes in the ground that potentially might not be— could be recovered.

What companies do you work with?

We're looking at commercial and industrial. We tend to work, certainly at this stage, with with larger sort of corporations that have got lots of waste, multiple sites, operate globally, and they manage that waste in different ways. You know, sometimes they manage, they have a kind of framework contract to manage everything through one, you know, one sort of supplier. Sometimes each site will have its own autonomy to manage waste, you know, with their own kind of contractors. So the kind of sectors they're in, there'll be food manufacturing, construction. Obviously, that's a kind of big area in terms of waste generation, sort of primary manufacturing kind of metals, for example. But we're also working with, you know, retailers as well. I mean, retailers is an interesting one because of course they are consumer-facing. Their waste streams are maybe not massively complex, but they have potentially thousands of sites. So the geography of the kind of flow of materials is quite complicated, even though the types of waste may be sort of fairly inert, whereas in the manufacturing space you might have a real mixture of complex waste streams plus kind of inert waste streams. So we are trying to sort of focus in on certain kind of sectors. But Ultimately, we think actually being able to see the system and see it as a system, we think is the way to sort of start to kind of make better decisions. We think ultimately the value really will be to the industry itself. So that industry, the waste management industry, is a big industry. You know, it's worth $500 billion a year globally. It's a huge industry. But clearly that's coming under a lot of pressure to sort of change like a lot of other industries. It's being hit with Industry 4.0, so Internet of Things. Data analytics, robotics, all that wave is hitting the kind of waste management industry. So we're trying to enable, you know, a 21st century waste management industry where, you know, the models of waste management will be different, the way that waste is managed will be different, the way that waste is moved will be different. So we're trying to say, well, let's get better data and drive a different sort of type of industry. So we think ultimately our customer will be the industry itself, will be investors into the waste management industry and will be regulators and policymakers as well.

There are— there's a few companies that have got some kind of thing on all the bins so they know exactly how much waste is going into the truck and what waste is going into the truck, and they've gone into quite a lot of granular data. That must help you in your process mapping?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the, the so-called internet of bins. Um, um, yeah, I mean, we've done a lot of work with, with IoT, um, kind of sensors, um, because, you know, we know that, you know, we're already starting to deal with a significant volume and velocity of, of data. But I think the thing about waste, as, as you know, I mean, you, you know, you've kind of done a lot of work in this area too, is that it's quite a messy, mixed picture. You know, different companies classify it in different— even though there are schemes for classifying and measuring, you know, people take a sort of slightly different approach. So yeah, so on the one hand, you could have systems, IoT, bin sensors, which tell you, you know, whether the bin is full or not. And it's, you know, it helps to schedule the collection of that material. As yet, those systems aren't really telling us what's in the bin. It's telling us whether the bin is full, but it's not really saying what's in the bin. So that's useful, but we don't think it's the— at the moment, it's not giving us all the answers. So we need to look at it from a whole bunch of different ways. And that's why we think actually looking at patterns in the data is the way to start to unlock some of the inconsistencies and potentially some of the opportunities in that. But certainly the IoT piece, is gonna grow and expand as it is in any other industries.

Here's an idea. You know how you— there are people that are coming up, you can take photos of flowers and take photos of meals that you eat and it analyzes it and it knows exactly what's in that meal or it knows what that flower is or the plant is and stuff. You could have like some kind of camera that sits on— a very thin camera that goes alongside of the bin So when you chuck things in, it knows everything that goes in and analyzes it, and then it just records everything that's gone into that bin at all times.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think knowing what's in there is the sort of— I think is the key, because that's the key to then deciding, well, does it need to be in there in the first place? You know, that first question. And then if it does, well, should it be in there, or should it be somewhere else? You know, should we be source separating waste before it before it then, you know, is taken away somewhere else. Because what obviously, as you know, one of the big problems with waste is mixed— is contamination, you know, where kind of material is mixed together. So yeah, I mean, I think there's some work being done on optical systems for sort of trying to kind of identify what's, you know, in a sort of— in the waste stream. I think quite a bit of work's been done there in terms of, you know, when they're sorting waste, using optical systems and robotic systems for separating the waste, because that process is still quite manual. Obviously, potentially not the nicest job in the world in terms of picking out bits and pieces of contaminated waste. But yeah, there's definitely all sorts of technological opportunities there. I think that is going to come. Over the next 5 or 10 years, you're going to see a lot more of that, but in that period, You know, you're still dealing with a lot of kind of messy kind of data because you're dealing with a lot of messy mixed materials.

And how do you engage your staff, suppliers?

I mean, how big are you?

Are you—

We're tiny. I mean, there's 4 of us at the core, and then we work with a whole bunch of other kind of people as well, you know, with sort of different expertise from waste management to analytics to data to software, etc., etc. So we're a sort of classic, you know, kind of startup in that way, even though we have been around for a couple of years. But, you know, so in terms of the engagement bit, it's interesting at the moment. I mean, you, again, you know, you work in this field. I mean, Clearly there's a bit of a zeitgeist at the moment around waste. You know, obviously David Attenborough, you know—

We couldn't not mention him, could we?

Arguably the world's greatest environmental communicator has, you know, sort of switched everyone on to the sort of ocean plastics kind of issue. But then obviously we've seen in the UK, we've seen issues with the stockpiling, you know, this whole issue with clinical waste, the issues with plastic waste being stockpiled, these Because it can't be exported to China. So there's a lot of awareness out there at the moment. And it's interesting, actually. So the engagement bit I'm finding quite easy because people are going, yeah, wow, waste, it's really important, isn't it? And whilst it's always been important, perhaps it's been seen as being a bit of a sort of strange subject. In fact, somebody said to me recently, they said, Did you meet your wife before or after you started doing this work with Topolytics, Mike? And I said, well, what do you mean? And they said, well, waste management. So yeah, so the engagement bit is actually, at the moment, getting a foot in the door is quite easy because people are kind of switching on to the fact that, particularly in the corporate sector, that there are opportunities around waste because they're spending a lot of money on waste management. They want to be more resource efficient. Clearly, as we know collectively, there's this whole push around the circular economy. So we are a C100 company with the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, which kind of puts us up there as sort of one of the world's kind of leading innovators around circular economy. So that's, I think, starting to have a sort of a big impact. And you'll have seen the recent thing, announcement that the sort of global commitments around the a new plastics economy that the Ellen MacArthur Foundation has been really sort of championing and pushing, where we need to move away from the sort of current model of sort of hydrocarbon, sort of plastic-based sort of industry and change that, change the way that kind of industry operates in order to try and kind of reduce the amount of kind of waste that is kind of leaking out of the system. So I think all those things combined, I think mean that, you know, we certainly get a, you know, we're certainly getting a, you know, there is a receptive ear to what we're doing within the sort of kind of corporate and commercial space. And I think that is also starting to play out within the waste management industry as well, which is starting to kind of recognize that actually, yeah, that there must be, you know, clearly there are challenges there, but But there clearly must be opportunities around, you know, kind of new models of waste management.

And I would say that you're probably one of the best-placed people to try and change or spearhead change in the waste management world because you've run— correct me if I'm wrong— you've run a PR company, you've run a sustainability consultancy, And you also manufacture through your child seats. So therefore you kind of have a skill set of lots and lots of things that all will have an effect on how you're able to change.

I've also set up a cinema company as well.

Have you? I didn't know that.

Check out my LinkedIn profile. Yeah, well, actually the PR company and the sustainability, it was a consultancy that we set up. It was my first company, which was Great Circle, which was a sustainability and environmental communications business. So we— this was 20 years ago. And we sort of thought— it came out of— I used to work in Indonesia. I ran a forest certification, the FSC program for a big Swiss inspection company in Southeast Asia. So I helped to develop the principles and criteria of the Forest Stewardship Council, sort of mid-'90s, and then we— I ran some of the very early audits in Southeast Asia. But I also did environmental management systems and ISO 14001. And one of the things that struck me doing that was that one of the big challenges, as you well know as well, around environmental management, you know, I've been called a tree hugger so many times, so I just show them pictures of me standing next to tropical trees, you know, because it's—

Yeah, yeah.

But I didn't hug, you know, I helped to manage them. But it's communication, it's behavior change, you know, it's one of the kind of big, big things. So, and with 14001, I thought, well, actually, there's a clause in there which talks about communication. But every time you ask somebody about, well, how do you communicate this stuff in order to generate the sort of change that you want to generate around, you know, within the management system? well, we've got a complaints book. It's like, oh, right, okay. So is that it? So there's a whole industry out there, whether you want to call it PR or corporate comms or whatever, that actually professionalizes the way you can communicate and influence. So if you put those 2 together, then you can maybe start to sort of generate kind of change around attitudes to sustainability too. And that's what Great Circle was about. But what we ended up doing, we ended up doing doing a lot of sustainability reporting. So these big annual sustainability reports that nobody reads, that are very expensive to produce. And that was the business. We sold that business to a financial and investor comms business back in the day. So yeah, so absolutely, my view is that the communications piece within the kind of work that you do, that I do, within our world of sustainability or environmental management, resource efficiency, communication is crucial. Because if you can't communicate, you're not going to change anybody's attitudes or behaviors. And that is one of the big challenges, I think, fundamentally around the whole climate change debate is argument, putting forward arguments, influencing, changing behaviors. It's a massive, massive challenge. So So that's one side of it. The other side, you mentioned Totseat, the fabric chair harness for babies who lunch, which is a market-leading sort of chair harness for children that where you don't have a high chair, you can safely anchor your child in a fabric product in a normal chair. And we sell that all over the world. And we are living the globalization dream on that one, and we sort of manufacture And we ship it all over the world and everything else. So we've learned a lot about trying to run a manufacturing business in as ethical and as responsible a way as possible in terms of using sort of environmental-friendly sort of textiles and inks and dyes and everything else. But it's very, very challenging when you're a small company. So that's taught us a lot. So when I talk to manufacturers and people making products, To a certain extent, we have, you know, in our own way, we've been through that cycle in terms of testing, manufacturing, shipping, exporting, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, I think all of those experiences certainly help in terms of what we're doing now.

I think people always like to listen to someone who's an expert that's kind of been there, done that, rather than listen to someone that has read a book about it and has decided that they now know how to help them. That's from my experience.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, to be perfectly honest, I think certainly when it comes to business, most all of my experience is just, you know, I've been involved in running, setting up, selling one, businesses for the last 20 years. And it's all self-taught, really. I mean, obviously, I read around it and I go to I do go to meetings and done the occasional course, but absolutely, it's all been learned on the hoof. And of course, made masses of mistakes, loads of mistakes. But hopefully, hopefully kind of learned from that as well.

So going Coming on from that, what would be one piece of advice you could give our listeners to help them with their purpose, thinking about those mistakes that you've made?

But advice in relation to what though? In relation to business or in relation to—

In relation to business and running sustainable— running a sustainable business.

Okay, and I still make this mistake, is number one, don't Don't sell yourself short. I'm constantly doing that. I'm constantly doing that, but that's just me, I guess. Number 2, persevere. I mean, I think one of the things about entrepreneurship that— it's one of the qualities of entrepreneurship that is sort of almost like the elephant in the room. People don't really tend to focus on it because it's— people see the successful entrepreneurs and they say, wow, look at the success and look at them doing great things and everything else. But of course, they don't see the 10 years of problems that you've had to wade through in order to get to that point. That idea that everyone is a 10-year overnight success, it absolutely does take longer to build something. You know that. You're building a business. It takes longer, and it's harder.

It takes way longer than you think.

And you have to make massive sacrifices. It's not easy, because I think if it was easy, of course, everyone would be doing it. So perseverance, I think, is an oft-ignored quality of entrepreneurship. Everyone thinks, hey, it's all whizzy ideas and innovation and excitement, but actually a lot of it is about just, 'cause there's so many setbacks along the way that, you know, constantly, you know, you're constantly battling that, you know. And at the end of the day, what you're constantly battling is what's up here, you know. That's really where the battle is, you know, 'cause you're bound to be dealing with rubbish.

Mm-hmm.

poor decision-making, difficult people, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All that's the external environment, but actually, it all comes back to what's going on up here, really. Perseverance is the other thing. I think the other thing about sustainability businesses and environmental management-focused businesses, and we certainly saw this with our Because we did a lot of work with those companies with our original consultancy. Sometimes I think there is— because what we are doing collectively, we think is really important, and we think— but that isn't reason enough. That alone will not help you to grow a business, whether that business is a social enterprise or whether it's a for-profit enterprise. That is not reason enough. Most of the people out there don't feel the same way. So you've still got to have that really commercial— you've still got to have that sort of commercial sort of trick within the business, even though you might be doing something that is fundamental to the way materials are going to be managed, to the way carbon is managed, to the way water is managed, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that keeping that sort of commercial kind of aspect to the forefront is absolutely vital as well.

Okay, brilliant. So running Topolytics, do you think about the environmental management and your carbon footprint when you're working? I know you're only a small team, but there are so many people that are small teams that do like to think about how they do it. I mean, what sort of things do you do from an environmental management carbon footprinting kind of thing?

Yeah, yeah, talk about— yeah, practice what you preach, Mike, practice what you preach. Okay, well, I suppose from a personal point of view, I mean, my view on this is that actually, again, it comes back to this idea that everyone's sort of almost like we're all trying to be perfect, you know, in relation to our sort of footprints, but of course, perfection is just, you know, we're not gonna get there. So we all have to kind of compromise in relation to the way we run, run, run a business. And, you know, my view on this is that, you know, it's a horses for courses thing. You know, if you're a big business with lots of sort of resources and systems, you can systematize a lot of this stuff. So you can systematize, you know, obviously we see a lot of companies that are trying to systematize the way they manage, transport across and within the business. So trying to move away from changing vehicle fleets or moving away from different— to different models of sort of vehicle use, encouraging public transport, et cetera. So we try and do that as much as we can. I mean, we're in a building that we rent a small office in a building that's probably not optimized for sort of energy efficiency, I have to say. So I think there are some kind of real challenges around that. But so I think we try and systematize it and measure as well as we can, but we could definitely be doing more. But as our business grows, we will systematize that more. And obviously, you know, your carbon sort of management and measurement system that you're launching, I think is a really kind of, you know, for someone like us, I think it's a really kind of useful thing because a lot of that stuff is just, you know, a lot of that stuff is kind of You know, unattainable for a business of our size. So, so I think— so my view on it is that you just need to sort of— it's a horses for courses thing. You need to sort of do what you can with the resources that you have, but always be mindful that actually there may be alternative ways of traveling, of, you know, actually sort of operating the business.

They almost change on a weekly basis as well.

Yeah, and also it's all compromise, you know. Perhaps my dirty secret, because it's not so much a secret, is that I've got a pilot's license. So, you know, so, you know, I love flying. And actually, when you look at what, you know, around, you know, the footprint of aviation, you know, I still fly to get from A to B. You know, we still believe that we have a global opportunity in terms of our business. We operate internationally, I fly places. I don't beat myself up about that because at the end of the day, what we're trying to do is trying to affect change in other ways. So it's all about, there's an element of compromise, I think, along the way. The purists might well disagree with me, but as you say, aviation's changing. The whole, look at fuels, Look at, obviously, as you say, electrification of aviation. Wow, that's really interesting to explore as well. So it's a really sort of complex picture, and I don't think there are any sort of simple straightforward answers.

What got you into sustainability? What would you say was your tipping point?

Well, do you know what? I'm a geographer, so I think geography was always a bit of a sort of environmental science back in the day. So, you know, because I have an interest in the world, I've got an interest in what's going on in the world, the way the world works, the way people interact with the natural environment, which is kind of what geography is all about. Check out my TEDx, Why Geography Is Going to Save the World.

So can you give us a link and we'll put it in the show notes?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can. Yeah, it's— yeah, if you search for Saving the World with Geography, Mike Groves, you'll probably find it. So yeah, so I guess I've always kind of come from that angle. And I think that's probably where it originally came from. In terms of the sort of actually working in that field, I remember I did a PhD in using aerial photographs to map forest condition, forest decline in Germany. Remember the days of acid rain damage? But in Germany, they were really good at sort of— of course, forestry is so important as a cultural and economic entity within Germany that they developed these amazing systems for monitoring trees from satellites and aerial photos. So I learned from them. And I came out of that and somebody said to me, so what sort of job do you want to go into? And I said, you know what, I'd like to go into environmental management. This is 20 years ago, 25 years ago, probably. And they said, they leaned forward and said, Sonny, I think you should go and get yourself a proper job. But then I had my revenge in my own head when I was passing through Preston Station about 2 years ago, and I saw one of these big adverts for a job website, you know, and it had a little field, search field, and you had to type in what sort of job you were looking for. And they actually had in this advert, environmental consultant. I thought, wow, it's a proper job. So to a certain extent, it came from that. And then, yeah, so I guess I'd always sort of come at it from that direction. But the thing is, what I've always said is when I've been accused of being a tree hugger, yes, I've worked in forestry, but I'm not doing this out of the goodness of my own heart. I actually believe that there is a big economic and commercial opportunity out there in terms of the idea that we can manage resources better, we can manage our footprints better, and we can still generate economic— there's an economic upside to that. I do believe that not that we can have our cake and eat it, but I think there is clearly economic and commercial opportunity there in terms of the environment and sustainability.

What would be one thing that you'd like people to take away from this podcast to do or to action?

Well, okay, from a purely selfish point of view, if you know of any companies that are interested in understanding a bit more about their waste and what happens to that waste and doing different things with it, then I would encourage them to get in touch by toppolitics.com. But I think just in terms of— I guess it comes back to thinking about sustainability and where we're going with that. It's this idea of, you know, let's not sell— you know, those of us that kind of work in this field, let's not sell ourselves short, but let's not assume that everybody out there is going to sort of buy into our, you know, our vision, our mission. You know, we need to sort of work really hard at that. So the whole communications piece is absolutely vitally important. But, you know, I'm not a religious man by any means, but, you know, keep the faith. Keep the faith because, you know, there is a job to be done, but there is a huge opportunity out there. So anybody that's thinking about starting up a business or doing the entrepreneur thing, take a look at sustainability, take a look at clean tech, take a look at that whole field, because there's some really, really exciting stuff happening, some amazing tech happening. Lots of stuff, as per your thing around carbon management and footprinting, lots of stuff around You know, the whole renewable energy piece, lots of stuff around recycling and reuse of materials, lots of stuff around water conservation and water quality. There's a whole bunch of stuff out there that's just, you know, waiting to be kind of dealt with. So I think there's kind of huge opportunity there.

Brilliant. Well, thank you so much today. Thank you.

No worries.

Thank you for coming on the podcast. And yeah. Thanks for letting us know how and what you're doing through Topolitics.

Well, thank you. Thanks, Will. I really appreciate that. And yeah, well, you know, I really appreciate the opportunity, and see you soon.

Cool. Cheers.

All right. Cheers, Will. See ya.

Thanks so much for listening. We created this podcast for you, so we'd really appreciate any feedback you want to give us. You can do that by rating and reviewing on your favourite podcast, or for iTunes, visit www.greenelement.co.uk/apple. If you'd like to keep in touch, then we invite you to join our free Facebook community, which is everything to do with sustainable and ethical business. Lots of daily conversations, themes, and great ideas. A really great place to work and network with like-minded individuals. If you open Facebook and search for The Green Element, hit the group search function, we will let you right in. All of the show notes, any links, any references to the— on this podcast will be featured on our website, greenelement.co.uk. As a special thank you for listening, please head over to www.greenelement.co.uk/podcast2018 And you can pick up a free guide on how to green up and environmentalize your business or organization. That's greenelement.co.uk/podcast2018. Finally, I would like to thank Ben Chapman for writing the fantastic opening music. He is an amazing artist with a phenomenal following. It was a privilege he said yes to even write it for us. We look forward to seeing you next week and hope you have a wonderful day.