E064 - Santiago Navarro from Garçon Wines

Welcome back to the Green Element Podcast, where we feature business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable. I'm your host, Will Richardson, and I can't wait to meet our guest today and help you on your journey of sustainability. Hi, Santiago, welcome to the Green Element Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. So Santiago, you run a wine company, Gosson Wines, that are changing the way that we're seeing packaging within the wine industry, bottles, etc. Please tell us more about what it is that Gosson Wines are doing.

Hi, Will, and hi Green Element and the Green Element viewer community, listener community. It's a pleasure to be here to explain a little bit about what we're doing. Yes, correct, I'm Santiago, the CEO and co-founder of Garçon Wines, the inventor of the 21st century wine bottle. And I guess, what do I mean by 21st century wine bottle? The world of wine has been using the same bottle for the last 2 centuries, a round glass bottle that has its origins in France. So most of the world of wine packs its wine into tube-shaped bottles that originate in the 2 key appellations of Bordeaux and Burgundy in France. We still use 35 billion of those bottles today. They have an unnecessarily large carbon footprint. It's our view to advance the wine bottle into the 21st century, creating a bottle that's not only superior from an environmental perspective, but also from an economic perspective. In fact, I should say that we have come to be recognized as a benchmark for drinks packaging sustainability, and that's because we are a great example of triple bottom line sustainability. What I mean by that is packaging that creates a healthier planet, a wealthier industry, and happier consumers. So I'll summarize that, and then I'll probably elaborate later on in this conversation. But the healthier planet is simply as a result of a spatially efficient, lightweight bottle slashes the carbon footprint of the logistics of wine. That in turn obviously has its obvious benefits for the health of our planet. In terms of the space and weight savings that slash the carbon footprint, that also cuts logistics costs, which are a large part of a wine company's costs. So benefiting the company or the industry, not just the planet. And ultimately, projects like we've done with letterbox wine, so delivering wine seamlessly into consumers' homes in the UK, not having to be in to take delivery or receiving a gift as a surprise through your letterbox and inside of your home, is something that certainly consumers in the UK have been really happy about. But there's also an important economic and environmental message with letterbox delivery. It allows for one to have a successful first-time delivery, once again cutting the cost and the carbon footprint of the last mile.

Brilliant. I love that letterbox delivery. Hadn't even crossed my mind when I was looking at your website and looking at what it is that you do. But of course, it makes complete sense. Brilliant.

There is, I mean, it's been something that was really massively popular with the media and with consumers. And we've got a lot of business out of it, specifically from the gifting industry in the UK. But there is an important economic and environmental message, which I think is an important one, certainly for the professionals or business individuals who listen to your podcast. Seamless delivery cuts the cost of redelivery, ensures that consumers are happier, but also the carbon footprint of having to have vans try to attempt redelivery or having people jump in their cars to drive to a depot. to pick up delivery that failed. So where possible, products going through a letterbox are great. And actually, I was in this morning with a giant of food delivery doing a workshop exercise on innovation, and they don't currently deliver through the letterbox, but they certainly are interested. Same with Royal Mail. We've had a lot of engagement with Royal Mail who are very positive about the opportunity for letterbox delivery and to use the Royal Mail service because it's a great service. That once again supports the wider UK economy. So I guess for the purpose, because I am being filmed, I should show what a flat wine bottle looks like. And so it's a cross-section of the Bordeaux bottle that I mentioned earlier. So we do, we embrace the heritage and tradition of wine whilst advancing it into the 21st century. And I can elaborate more later.

And I'm assuming that it's still a litre of wine? Or 750 milliliters or whatever size bottle.

Yeah, correct. So once again, it's 75 cl or 750 ml. That's a volume that consumers know and like. It works for diners, it works for people who know how much a wine bottle is. So we don't believe that the volume is an issue. We don't believe that, you know, an adaptation to the traditional shape is an issue. The key grape varieties from Bordeaux and Burgundy, also sometimes referred to as the noble grape varieties, have spread across the world of wine. So a Bordeaux bottle, a Merlot wine bottled in a Bordeaux bottle traditionally in Bordeaux, is also the bottle used from Chile to Australia. And that's a beautiful part of the world of wine, something that the emotional experiential, which is what consumers love. So that doesn't need changing. And For us, it's in our view commercial success relies upon true sustainability, and part of that is a product that can scale. And for that we believe the emotional and the experiential cannot be left behind, cannot be ignored. Consumers need to be happy when they see the product.

Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. And I don't know, I don't know, obviously I wouldn't know the answer to this, which is why I'm asking it. There are some wines that age once they've been bottled and they get better over time. Does the shape of the bottle make any difference to that, or how does that fit in with that?

Yeah, so first of all, I should say that the proportion of the world of wine which is wines that are bottled in such a way for cellaring, or that benefit from aging in bottle, is very small. The bulk of what we drink is wines that are produced, bottled, and consumed In the same year or same vintage, so then we'll consume the next vintage. In some cases there is aging that happens in barrel, barrique, in tank, and then we drink a wine that is of a year gone by but hasn't actually aged in bottle. It's aged in barrel to get certain flavors and other things. So no, we are targeting mainstream wines, wines that will be bottled and consumed in the same year or same vintage approximately. depends on the style of wine. It's actually to do with the material rather than the shape. So we use pre-existing plastic, we use post-consumer recycled PET, we buy waste which would otherwise end up— risk ending up as waste to landfill or being incinerated, and we turn that back into a value product which is a wine bottle. So part of the point I made before about creating a bottle that's fit for the 21st century is also a bottle that's able to go through the complex supply chains of the world of wine, of the world of food, of the world of drinks. You know, also the world is changing. We no longer produce and purchase and consume wine in our local village or area. It tends to be we're drinking wines from across the world. And as part of that process, glass unfortunately is too heavy and it shatters easily. Round is a very inefficient shape. So for us it was looking at all the elements, it was creating a pack that would be suitable for mass market wines, which is where we can have the biggest impact. If we take the small section of wines that only, you know, few of us drink regularly, and most of us will only taste a few times in our lives, so maybe once a year for our birthday or a special occasion, we will make very little impact there by changing that packaging. We will probably actually before we start to innovate for those few percent will probably move into other drinks or other delivery mechanisms to make the drinks industry, to make the world of food a much more sustainable space. And delivery and packaging is fundamentally important. If you look at the recent data published by UBS Bank on the future of food, they show innovation in food being a space that will grow from $135 billion a year to $700 billion a year, and more than 50% of that $700 billion a year, $365 billion to be exact, will be delivery of food, and specifically delivery of food engaged within a digital world. So for us, it's about showing through a wine bottle, through probably the most engaging grocery product there is, how we can innovate in a relevant and meaningful way to make the wine industry more sustainable and through that encourage other products, maybe even do them ourselves. But in the meanwhile, talk openly to the industry and encourage others to take the same steps we did, to even in some cases use elements of what we are doing and make their businesses more sustainable, primarily for the health of our planet. Because we are in the midst of a climate crisis and it looks like it will get none the better. And so we need to make deep, immediate changes.

You talk about the emissions from travel with it being lighter, more efficient to package, etc. Have you done carbon footprint analysis on, on the difference between taking a normal 12-case bottle or say 6 bottles from A to B and what the difference is?

Yeah, so we haven't done our own lifecycle analysis at this point because we don't have enough data from a large enough wine company to understand exactly where the wine starts, where it moves to, the distance in the UK, the distance at sea or on train or on lorry. We are working with a number of large wine organizations that are considering implementing our packaging into their business, and they are using their own data to conduct their own LCAs and environmental studies. However, a few years back, WRAP, the well-known environmental charity in the UK, conducted a study just simply looking at lightweighting bottles, not changing the shape but lightweighting them. And we can extrapolate the data from their study to show that our bottle, which is 63 grams versus an average bottle weight of 500 grams, so 87% lighter, would save in excess of 500 grams of CO2 per bottle across the supply chain. So a single bottle could save half a kilo by extrapolating the figures from wrap. We in the UK consume 1.7 billion bottles of wine a year. Across the globe, it's somewhere in the region of 35 billion bottles of wine a year. So if you make the numbers there, it's significant while still having a product, importantly, that looks beautiful on a dining table. We're not encouraging people, we're not encouraging businesses to take on a product that will make them lose money. We're not encouraging consumers to take on a product that will make their dining tables look more ugly. We're actually trying— we're keeping both on a positive, but we're also slashing the carbon footprint. There's data there. There's also very interesting data from the alcohol monopolies in the Nordics. So Sweden, Finland, and Norway operate alcohol monopolies, and as a result of having a monopolistic scenario, they are able to do what's right for the country. Because they have no competition, they dictate what happens. They conduct very detailed LCAs on packaging. And what is clear is there is a massive difference between round glass bottles and even a round PET bottle. And that wouldn't equate for the difference in being flat. So to give you the figures approximately, it's about half. 675 grams of CO2 versus 245 grams of CO2 according to Alcoa's data. One of the 3 monopolies, but they do a joint lifecycle analysis on all their packaging every couple of years, and that is published in the public domain. Once again, places like my own Twitter account are a great place to find this. I share it, I share very openly innovations in wine in can, wine in box, wine in keg. But yes, there are massive benefits to lightweighting. In addition to designing a product that's more spatially efficient. And I'll just finally add, actually, we didn't just go flat. We designed a bottle that packs in a way not seen before in drinks. So we pack 10 full-size bottles in a case that would otherwise carry just 4 round glass bottles of the same volume. We get 2.3 times the amount of product on a pallet. That means direct savings on the number of pallets, The cost and the carbon footprint. Less lorries on the road, less containers on ships, less containers on trains. Direct impact by just packing more effectively. We cut all the space, pretty much airspace, from a box where traditionally if you open a box of wine, you see all these heads sticking out and all this space around it because they're just so ineffective to pack. We pack bottles across from the bottles that stand up. removing all the airspace. And it's harder to explain through talking. Our website explains clearly through graphics how exactly we do that. Once again, it's been something that's created a massive amount of interest because there is too much airspace being moved around the globe in logistics, and we need to cut that to cut the carbon footprint.

Now, I mean, that makes such a difference. I used to work for Justerini& Brooks and used to sell wine for them on St. James's Street, and knowing And they're not a big— I wouldn't say they're a massive wine merchant, but they were transporting a lot of wine around the country every day, well, Monday to Friday. And knowing in my head how much wine they were shipping around, and then thinking about what you've just said about restricting it, it will save companies like Justine and Brooks and these other wine merchants a huge amount of money anyway, because they'll be so much more efficient. Instead of having 4 or 5 vans, they could even have just one driving around.

Totally. And actually, you can get more deliveries, for example, into electric vans. So we talked to a number of— a very broad range of companies along the value chain of wine. In some instances, it's just cutting the number of containers or trucks. And we've spoken to organizations with logistics bills north of $10 million, primarily in the US because it moves, wine moves a great, great distances in the United States. But the ability to take $4 to $5 million directly into your bottom line that you never thought you could before is really an important thing for an industry. If you work at Justine and Brooks and you know the wine world, it's a world of very tight margins. You know, wineries need to be able to make all the money they can make, and why waste it when you can save it by having a more efficient pack? And so, yes, it's really an important element. But likewise, now that you have more and more electric vehicles or small autonomous delivery vehicles that are being tested, you can achieve much greater utilization of that space by having a pack that's more lightweight. It may be hard to show on camera, but that's our 10-bottle case. I'm not a big guy at all, and that's my hand. And so what you can see here is actually we cut out so you can see how the bottles are lined up like books, and then there's 2 bottles across the top. It's a very simple innovation, but it's very, very impactful, and that's why people get it. It's the same with going flat. Flat is simply a cross-section of round. It's no No great feat. It's slightly more challenging to produce. That's no reason why we shouldn't be doing it if we can have a positive impact on our environment. We— hopefully most listeners of this podcast will be aware that we went in the last year from 410 to 415 parts per million CO2 in our atmosphere. That's 5 parts per million in one year to May 2019. In the preceding 5 years, we had only gone from 400 to 410 parts per million. That's 10 parts per million over 5 years, or 2 parts per million a year. So things are accelerating. If we hit 450, the extreme weather events will be something of biblical proportions. And I think most people don't ever recognize— I'm speaking to you today from central Covent Garden. It's August, and the last few days we've had Just from nowhere appear hailstorms for just moments. And, you know, a few days ago I saw on the news it rained so heavily in Luton that the inside of the terminal of Luton Airport was gushing with water. We're just not prepared for what is coming, but we can choose to make positive, direct, deep, immediate changes. And our PAC is one way of showing that. And the good thing is wine is a talking point, and more and more when people drink it, they talk even more. So we dedicate a lot of space on pack to communicating what we're doing, and we hope that it gets people to rethink the way they move, the way they power their houses, you know, all the many things that can have an impact through having a conversation over a glass of wine.

And We had a wine company called Renegade and Longton. I don't know if you know them. They make sparkling elderflower wine.

I don't.

They were on our show quite a few months ago now. Brendan was talking about the labels and the type of labels you put on it. Now, I guess for him, it's a different product because he actually talked about the fact that he literally could not choose anything other than glass because of the pressure that's built up inside of the bottle. So therefore for him, he was also looking at using only paper labels and the type of ink on it. But being a plastic bottle, then there are going to be different drivers around it. Does that come into consideration with the way that you put together packaging?

Yes, it does. Thank you for the question because I should have mentioned it earlier when we were talking about designing a product that's fit for a 21st century world, a product that's designed to be as eco-friendly as possible. It's important for us that the product we designed was widely, easily, and fully recyclable, and it is. That's why we use a plastic cap, and that's why you use a plastic label. It's a different type of plastic, so PP/PE cap, PP label, and PET bottle, or recycled PET bottle. That's because they go into the same recycling stream. And they separate through flotation. So it's very important that we can separate the label to remove the inks, not to pollute the recycling stream from PET. But importantly, yes, our bottle has been designed with recycling in mind because PET is a very recyclable product. And we believe that the future is using plastics in a smart way, using the right plastics in the initial phase, so using pre-existing plastic, We have a lot of it in circulation, and it's been all too easy just to use virgin material. That's not the right thing to do, it's the easy or the cheap thing to do rather than the right thing to do. Many companies will pay the price for that as a result of cutting corners historically. But yes, that's an important point. On top of that, when you have a product as ours is designed for food consumption, the resulting product needs to be food-grade standard. To EFSA, so European Union, and FDA, American standards. And it is. And that means that there is no potential migration, or if there is migration of adhesives or ink from the label, that they have no impact on human health. And so that's when we choose the label we choose, we choose it from a recycling perspective and from a food safety perspective. And our bottles are certified through complex migration testing. To ensure that they are fit for purpose. We drink our own wines at the end of a day's work every day, and so we want to ensure that they are of the best possible standard. But recycling is a very important one, and when we first launched the product, we were unaware of the complexities of the recycling stream. And the first few pallets that we released into the market, and the photos of it are still there, was a product with an aluminium screw cap closure. We were then cautioned or warned by a recycling charity that's good friends of ours nowadays and said, listen, Garçon Weinstein, the aluminium collar, once the screw cap is removed, will impact the recyclability of that great bottle. So you should try and find a way around it. And so we stopped production, we stopped any further bottles being filled, and we looked to find a cap that was widely, easily, and fully recyclable. which we found, and that's the sole cap we will use going forward.

And how did you get into— I mean, were you always in the wine trade, or were you in— you just said you weren't in the— you didn't know the recycling part, but what was your background to get you into this?

Yeah, so not knowing the recycling part is, I guess, also a part of the learnings. I'll come back to how I came around to this afterwards. It's a point that we take forward In our business, we don't expect consumers or people who are not engaged in waste and recycling and refuse collection to fully understand recycling. And at the moment, there's too many complex products that require splitting apart. Take the good old bag-in-box for wine. It is recyclable to a certain extent, but you've got to rip the box from the bag and the valve from the bag and put them into different recycling streams in order so that the bottle is fully recyclable. We wanted a bottle that in its entirety could be flung into a plastics recycling bin and would be fully recyclable. I came actually to this business, joined my co-founder having come out of my first venture, which was an online wine business selling wine in round glass bottles. And what I realized very clearly from that business was we were not going to be able to scale as an industry, digital sales, online sales, direct-to-consumer sales, with a 19th century vessel. The round glass bottle was going to hold us back. So much so that if you look across Western Europe, only 4% of wine is sold through the digital channel. The UK is ahead of most of Western Europe at 10%, but for a complex product where you could benefit from a whole webpage or some more information than you'd get on a supermarket shelf. It really makes sense to buy wine through a digital channel where you have that greater information for food matching, for recipes, for tasting notes, for background on the winemaker, all the things that make your purchase better informed. But it's lagging because anyone who will have worked with wine through complex supply chains, through courier companies, will recognize that unfortunately a bottle that shatters so easily, that's so heavy, and that's spatially efficient is simply the worst-case bottle that you could come up with if you take in mind the complex supply chains of a 21st century world. So shutting down my first business and deciding what to do next, I realized that probably coming up with a way to deliver seamlessly into UK homes with a pack that could be used, could be delivered by Royal Mail or any courier who decided to fling the product anywhere they wanted, would be probably the best solution for my business, but for anyone else's. And final point on that is actually we've gone on recently to certify our single bottle delivery case. So this is a case that takes a single bottle and can be delivered to a letterbox. And we've had that Amazon frustration-free packaging certified. It's the most rigorous certification for putting a product through a massive logistical beating, and it should come out the other end with the internal product undamaged without needing an outer case. So it should be a limited amount of packaging. It goes through 17 drops at different heights and compression and ISTA 6 certification for the logistical geeky ones out there. But yes, once again, really important, a product that looks beautiful on dining table, resembles the bottle we know and like, has— pulls on the tradition of the wine bottle shapes we know and like, but once again is built and designed for the 21st century. So Having a business that struggled to scale because of a round glass bottle, I guess, was to me a very clear problem and a catalyst to saying there's got to be something better. Although I must say, we tried so many different ideas and we considered so many different options, over-engineered options, to come up with a 21st century wine vessel. or delivery container. And then it was only after a lot of work that we finally realized, you know what, it's probably best we just take a cross-section of the bottle we know and like and make it in a lightweight, strong material that's also a sustainable material source. And so for those listening who might be concerned about plastic or fear plastic or call themselves plastic-free, I ask them to reconsider their position because in my view, calling yourself plastic-free is going to create a bigger problem. We need to embrace the material and use it smartly until we can get rid of it in a clean way. By just saying, I'm plastic-free, that's removing your responsibilities from being part of the solution. We know well enough whether it's business or personal, if you've got a problem you need to face it head-on. Pretending it doesn't exist and moving it to other people's responsibility is probably not the fair and responsible thing to do. So for us, we're very excited about the future of materials. We're very excited about the future of recycling, whether it's bio or chemical. There's many different great innovations in process, but for the time being, we need to embrace above-ground carbon, and we need to find ways in which we can use it effectively and then eventually get rid of it in a clean and safe way and use more modern materials that have no impact on our food supply. So bearing in mind some materials do impact the availability of food for a booming population of the world, but that can be truly and easily biodegradable or compostable. Many are not, many are mismarketed at the moment. But that's probably a conversation for another day because it's a very in-depth one and a very important one. But I just always feel responsible to ask people to take informed decisions rather than knee-jerk reaction ones.

I agree. Yeah, no, I agree completely. And we've got so much plastic we can reuse anyway, so it makes sense to reuse it rather than You know, otherwise it's almost worse. If you look at it in some ways, you've extracted this oil, you've produced a load of carbon emissions, and then you just landfill it.

Yeah, correct. Well, actually even worse. Correct. If everybody runs away from it, take the most extreme situation, everyone goes plastic-free. Nobody will fund and fuel the collection of that plastic that's in existence. The way we clean up garbage patches is by giving that garbage patch value because then actually even better, as that waste material has value, entrepreneurs will compete to collect that material and sell it back into the ecosystem, not just relying upon governments to fund it. Governments are too slow to move. Entrepreneurs can move in a second.

Yeah, absolutely. And so obviously any wine company can buy your bottle and use your bottle?

Yes, so we make our intellectual property open to the public to take from us and to use for their own business. We encourage many wineries, we have a number of the big giants in wine at the moment looking at using the pack for their some of their brands or elements of their production, which is very, very positive. Got some also of the giants in logistics and delivery and supermarket brands. So yes, we took a very early decision in our business to go from B2C to B2B and to do that for the benefit of the industry as a whole.

That's brilliant. That's really, that's very Elon Musk of you.

A great entrepreneur who does a lot also for the health of our planet through great vehicles and through solar technology.

Yeah, it's interesting what the way that he has changed and manipulated the way that we think about things and brought things into more mainstream kind of, you know, ways of thinking.

Another great person who has and actually links me to our product is Sir David Attenborough. Who did a phenomenal job at bringing the irresponsible use of plastic to the world's attention. And we started developing our bottle in 100% pre-existing plastic way in advance of Blue Planet 2. I did that and I held firm on that position because I knew it was the right thing to do. I was aware of the environment in a way that probably others are not. And actually since What I want to show you here is a handwritten letter from Sir David to myself, wishing us as an organization every success and recognizing that using pre-existing plastic and also cutting the weight of a bottle was the right thing to be doing. I wanted to be clear with myself, with my team, and with the market that what I was doing was right, which is why I engaged with Sir David and I sent him a letter and a sample. And he kindly took the time to write back with this lovely letter earlier this year, 2019. So we're proud of what we do. We take extra steps to do the right thing. We believe that's the way you build businesses that are sustainable in the way that my grandparents or great-grandparents did, not necessarily the way businesses are built in Silicon Valley or other places such as the homes of Elon Musk and others where Businesses are just going after funding and trying to scale as quickly as possible whilst forgetting the ecosystem around them. We build a business to change an industry in a positive way, to advance an industry. We engage with anyone who wants to. And, you know, as a byproduct, we will be successful and make money. But our primary reason for getting out of bed in the morning is not to make money. It's to do good and to benefit the industry as a whole. If you do anything properly, in the long term you will make money. But to solely do anything to make money would have meant that we would have probably produced the bottle in virgin material and not cared about the recycling, you know, used an aluminium closure. That's not the right thing to do. And so the market should be informed and consumers should vote with their pounds or dollars or euros. and support those organizations. Doesn't have to be mine, but, you know, if there are companies investing in clean energy, consumers should back them and should use them as the source of the energy they use for their homes, etc., because we need to have a planet we can live on in 50 years' time. It's useless amassing money if you're no longer able to live on this beautiful planet.

No, absolutely, absolutely. Where can we buy wine that's used in your bottles?

Yeah, so there's a lot, there's quite a large range of stockists online. Some are wine companies, online wine companies, others are gifting companies. We are still relatively niche in terms of reach because we've only been in the market for about a year and the primary use case has been the gifting industry. We recently, for example, were the wine at Bristol Pride, an amazing festival in the city of Bristol, and we were very happy to support that initiative and to work with that initiative and We will shortly see some of our products on airplanes. We've got some very interesting projects there in the pipeline, in supermarkets and others. So hopefully by the first quarter of 2020, which is also around the same time we'll enter the United States market, we will be more broadly covered in the UK. For the time being, I guess our own website carries a list of stockists of where people can see who stocks us. Different products, different price points, different offerings, because in some cases the product is offered with chocolate or with flowers, etc. So yeah, a growing list of stockists as a result of a great team getting out there and getting the product to market, but we'll be probably growing— we'll shortly hit the hockey curve inflection in the graph as a result of partnering with a couple of very large giants in wine. Who have the reach, who have the retail space, and to get the product out on a truly national and global scale.

That's brilliant. Well done.

Thank you. Well done, Sergio.

It's awesome to hear, and it's really great to hear someone that's truly changing an industry and completely changing it. How do we know more? How can we learn more about you?

Yeah, so I guess our website is kept very up to date. We recently launched a new version which is in beta, and that gives a comprehensive view of who we are. I tweet very regularly and I inform the market what we're up to. Likewise, on LinkedIn, I'm a big communicator because I believe it's my responsibility to share what we're doing, even sometimes in advance of us doing it, to encourage others, to stimulate others, to motivate others to do the same. So, I'd say website, Twitter, and LinkedIn. are probably the best places to follow what we're up to. We're also very fortunate that the world's media does cover us extensively, and we do share once again what we're doing there. Likewise, the news section of the website. So those are great, great places to follow what we're doing. But I actually encourage people also to follow the greater matters on environmental topics to follow our measurement of parts per million in CO2 in our atmosphere. That's data people should be aware of every month. It's readily available online and should hopefully encourage consumers, people in, you know, society as a whole to make the changes that Greta Thunberg pleads for, that Sir David Attenborough pleads for, that Al Gore pleads for. We really need to recognize that this is a a challenge like never seen before, and we need to rise to that challenge and make changes. So follow what we're doing, but please do follow the more important bigger picture, and we'll come to shelves, to supermarkets, to online stores around where most people are, and we'll make that effort. I'm hopeful that society in general follows the really important topics because they are more time critical and much more important than us.

Brilliant. Brilliant. Well, thank you very much. We'll put all the links on our website in the show notes. So thank you very much for your time today, Santiago.

Thank you.

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