E070 - Sam Coggin from The Coggin Group

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Welcome back to the Green Element Podcast, where we feature business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable. I'm your host, Will Richardson, and I can't wait to meet our guest today and help you on your journey of sustainability. Thank you very much for joining the Green Element Podcast today. We are looking forward to hearing all about your organization, the Coggin Group. You sell furniture. If it's new, it's able to be remanufactured and reused very easily. And then you also sell furniture that has been remanufactured and has had a life before its current new owner. Could you tell us a bit more about your organisation and how you— and what you do, please?

Exactly, yeah. So thank you very much, Will, for having me. It is a pleasure. So yeah, so we have come into the industry as a traditional removal company. I mean, that's kind of where it spanned from and where the idea on being able to collect furniture from clearances. We always thought, and my dad knew back then, there was still a lot of value left in the furniture that he was clearing. And everybody else in the space was just clearing it out, getting paid a bunch, and throwing it away. So back in 1989, when it really started kicking off for us to be able to get our hands on good quality furniture that was coming out of government buildings, councils, places like that, so it's all high-end furniture. And before my dad really realized how good the furniture was, it was in such good condition and it was being thrown, you know, and it kept getting thrown away. We thought, hold on, we can resell this. And it was to a completely different market. And we understood that way back then. You know, we couldn't get that furniture to the same market, being the governments and the councils. They had to have new. And it wasn't so much that they didn't want secondhand, they just wanted to know that they could keep getting the same stuff. And obviously, once you start buying secondhand, upcycled, remanufactured furniture, it's very difficult to get a constant supply of the exact same furniture. So that's the worry. And that is still kind of the worry at the minute. So the way we was able to come on to the market and do well with being able to resell secondhand furniture, because that is the hardest thing, it's very difficult to get value out of secondhand office furniture, as it's known. Fortunately for us, my granddad set us back, set the business up back in 1969 as agricultural merchants. So we had a huge network of farmers that at the time needed to start buying filing cabinets, desks, they needed a personal set of drawers. And we already had hundreds of farmers in our area that were making use of the furniture that was able to take away from the government buildings. And then we had already an established network of farmers that required the furniture. So that really got the ball rolling. At the time my dad was doing it.

And was there a driver back then, do you think, for sustainability, or was it just economic drivers?

Economic, 100%. You know, we were coming across good quality furniture and we were 60, 70, 80% of the price of the same furniture new. Although the clients didn't really know that because they'd never seen, you know, a £600 office chair. They were just used to buying, you know, what was deemed, you know, a £50, £60 chair. So they didn't really know. But what they really valued was the quality of the furniture that we were getting, even though it was secondhand, upcycled, as we still really call it. They liked the fact that they could buy something that was— that's been on the market already for 5 years, and it then lasted them another 15, 20 years. We had a case not too long ago where we had a client ring us, and it was one of my dad's farmer connections complaining about a chair. The gas lift had actually failed on the chair, which is a known problem, but something that can be easily replaced. And he said, I'm ringing up because I've got a chair and the gas lifts failed on it. And I was like, right, okay, not a problem. We can get this replaced. And then he went on to, I actually bought this secondhand chair off you 20 years ago. And we said like, it was a secondhand chair that you purchased. He said, oh yeah, yeah, absolutely great chair. And at the time, you did say if anything goes wrong with the chair, we can buy parts. So it was kind of in their minds that they were buying something that could be prolonged, but it definitely wasn't the agenda. It was just customer care and the service that we could provide. But obviously now with the whole climate emergency and the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, you know, putting all this new kind of information, you know, out there into the world, for us, it's absolutely great because it's allowed us to understand our business more and what it actually means. for future procurement and disposal of quality office furniture. We've been talking to different manufacturers, big manufacturers around the UK, and they're all gearing up for it. They're getting ready for it. I mean, everyone's talking about remanufactured engines, ink toners, computers, and things like this, but office furniture still kind of at the moment is the bottom of the list. But we're going to see a massive change in the next 12 months on how much is actually brought up. I mean, you look at where people are going to work, they're sitting on a chair and they're working at a desk. What's happening with that furniture? How is it being purchased? And what reasons are they looking to purchase the furniture? And then what happens to it at end of life? And that, that's where we're really kind of shout to the high hills is you should be coming to us for us to supply it and then dispose of it and maintain it.

And it's kind of on that vein, 30 years on from 1989, it's 2019. Would you say the drivers are sustainability or economic?

I think, I mean, for us, it's— we're struggling to measure it because we're only finding the larger organizations that are showing more interest. But because we deal with startups and a lot of smaller businesses as well for the upcycle side, the economic side is still there very much. But what we are finding, there will be a lot more impact once we start getting the likes of some of the bigger organizations that are showing a lot of interest. And one way we're able to do this, because we are still a small company, you know, we've been in the industry for a long time, but as for numbers, we're still a small company, but we are operating from a 2-acre, 85,000-square-foot facility. So it's a big footprint as far as facility and capabilities go. But for us, we're really wanting to work more with For the larger commercial side, we're wanting to work more with larger organizations that do want to source good quality furniture that can be maintained and then disposed. We don't want to just, you know, supply them furniture that's 98% recyclable.

Right.

If that's what we're shouting, it goes against what we're actually trying to achieve. You know, we're trying to provide something that's— yes, it can be recycled at the very end of its life, but we need to come in its midlife to make sure not only is it being maintained properly for Whoever owns it, whichever organization owns it. And that's being done very poorly at the minute. I mean, there's not enough information really out there, and the manufacturers aren't really wanting to push that there are spare replacements. You know, if a chair fails, they just want the distributors to go back to them, get rid of the old one that might just have a broken caster. I mean, if you know anything about office chairs, the casters, the wheels on the bottom of the chair, they just ping straight out and you can put a new one on. And the amount of times I walk into a building And I'll say, what's happening with all those chairs with the missing casters? Oh, they're getting thrown away because the wheels are broken. We've ordered some new ones. And I'm like, that's a £400, £500 chair you're going to throw away when you could buy a 50p caster replacement. It's craziness.

Right.

But it doesn't take much. I mean, off the back of this, a lot you will see when you drive around these major built-up cities, you know, if you can peek your head around the back of these buildings, you will see skips full of furniture that has barely anything wrong with it. I mean, if it has a rip through the fabric, you know, and you can see the foam, it does look horrible. But even at that point, the foam can be replaced and the fabric, it can be reupholstered.

Yeah.

You know, whether it's for the organization that originally owned it, or for a completely different market. And that's one thing that we found is very interesting. You know, the larger ones want to be able to purchase, let's call it sustainable office furniture, But not because we're trying to say it's 100%, you know, it's 98% recyclable. It's because one, we can maintain it, and then we can ethically dispose it by upcycling it to a completely different market. An argument that we keep coming up against is, especially by the manufacturers, they don't want us to keep their products on the market for a long period of time, because the threat to them is they think that it's staying on the market with the original owner. When it's not, it's going to a completely different market that otherwise wouldn't generally think about paying £500, £400 on a single chair. You know, you can fully furnish a small office for the same amount, as you'll probably know. So yeah, we are finding it very interesting at the minute. And the more backing that we get from bigger organisations to say, you know, this is valid, this can work. And we've got proof of it working over in the States. You know, I've been talking to some guys over in America. And they've done it. They've cracked it. And they are disrupting the way it's being done over there. And that's what we're really trying to bring over into the UK and possibly try and get into Europe as well.

What would you say your business superpower was?

100% upcycling office furniture. You know, the amount that we bring in is a crazy amount. We never like throwing anything away. You know, we'll keep it when it gets to the point, it's like, why are you keeping? Why are you keeping hold of that? But everything If we're to prove a point, all quality office furniture has replaceable parts. And that's key to us. If anyone knows us in the industry, it's, oh yeah, go to Coggins for some good quality secondhand furniture or upcycled furniture. We've tried to get away from calling it secondhand furniture because it just devalues it as soon as you say it. Whereas if we call it upcycled, I mean, one, it sounds more current. People are more understanding what it is because it's not recycled furniture. Recycling's different terminology. So we thought upcycle is great for us right now, but we do really want to across the board remanufacture every single piece of furniture that we come across. You know, we've got a heck of a lot to do, but that's the ultimate goal is to be known for remanufacturing in a commercial scale.

So whereabouts are you based?

We are based in Forton, just outside of Garstang, if you know Garstang at all.

No, sorry.

You'll know Preston, Preston and Lancaster. Yes, we're basically between, between both, just on the side of the A6.

Okay.

Yeah, we were very fortunate to find the facility where we're at. Very, very fortunate. But it's perfect for us right now. You know, I have a big dream of having a self-sustaining facility and having almost set out as a facility that we can show people around. We can get CEOs and COOs to come around and actually get involved with upcycling and remanufacturing office furniture. And so they can understand it more because it's just so unheard of. And there actually has been information put out that's actually been wiped off the internet. We're trying to figure out how we can centralize it in one place, and that's why we created TCG Sustain, which is just the Cogging Group Sustain. But that's how we brand all of our upcycled and even remanufactured office furniture. So people in this space, we can put it all in one place so it's not in different blogs or forums or anything like that. We can have it all in one place, everything about the importance of remanufactured office furniture, because there still really isn't anyone out there putting a lot of information out there. They're getting information and holding on to it. Because I think the fear is the bigger manufacturers getting hold of it and not wanting to support independent upcyclers, remanufacturers, because they're scared it's going to disrupt They're current. I mean, essentially it will, but if anything, if they're saying that they're sustainable and they're ethical and they want to be part of— if they're creating a product that they say is top quality, that product shouldn't only have a lifetime of 12 months to 2 years. You know, they put them out there with 10-year guarantee. So why a business wants to undergo a rebrand or they want to change up the workspace to attract new talent, why does it get thrown away? Why is there no incentive? To say to that organization, listen, yes, you're having a rebrand. It's not because the furniture's failing, but why not talk to someone like us, you know, as a remanufacturer, and let these guys come in and take it away? And that might be their agenda, but it often doesn't happen at all.

When it comes to running an ethical and sustainable business, what would you say your biggest struggle so far has been and how you've overcome it?

We've received very little support. Everything that we have done We've done ourselves. It's always been our own money. And we've— everything that we've made, we've pumped back into the business to really get it going. We've not really had anyone approach us saying, yes, you've got a great model, you've got something really great here. Let us come and really get this going. You know, we've had to be very vocal. And it's one of the reasons I'm doing this to really get us out there. We're not seeing very much support in the way of remanufacturing grants, or grants to allow us to do more R&D. in this space so we can actually get the message out there. Because for me, a big thing of mine is to try and get more people involved, involved in this space. We don't want to own this space because it would be impossible for us to be able to please everybody. You know, there's a handful of organizations that are doing what, what we're doing, but there's just so— I think because they're so busy in doing what they're doing, it's just information for those who are dealing with them at that, at any one point. No one else really gets to know. And that's where I'm trying to be really vocal. I want it to really go out there to create interest because everybody that I have spoke to, you're onto something, just keep pushing it the way you're pushing it. And for the last 3 years, that's exactly what I've been doing. But we're seeing other companies. I mean, one bugbear of mine was I found out a company that received a grant for remanufacturing. have had to pretty much close the program down because it was going to upset the distributors too much if they were seen to be remanufacturing. So why not take the grants away from the main manufacturers and look for independent smaller businesses that could really do something with it? You know, it's our livelihood to do this. So why not give it to us when it is our agenda?

Yeah.

preserve quality office furniture. If you give it to a manufacturer, why would they want to preserve something that they need to continually make new products to survive?

Can I, can I ask about how you reduce your own environmental impact and carbon footprint of your business and what you would say your single biggest challenge or frustration is?

We're quite efficient. I mean, because the numbers are still low, we don't generate a lot of our own waste. I mean, we do work with a I can never pronounce the name right, Suez, that are committed to obviously really diverting. I mean, but they only take our production waste away, which, like I say, it's very little. I mean, I don't know if you've come across our Eco Cube, if you've heard of it. It's actually a piece of soft seating. So it's a cube-shaped soft seating. Because one of the hardest things we do struggle to get rid of that costs us quite a lot is chipboard. So obviously, you've got a desktop, that's your chipboard. So what we've decided to do is create a product where it takes a 400mm by 400mm section of any piece of MFC.

Hmm.

And we can turn it into a saucy cube that can be covered with reconstituted foam and sustainable fabric. And that allows us to divert. So we're trying to dive— we're trying to reuse what we would consider as our own waste. But like I said, because we don't produce a lot, we've not had major issues. I mean, everything that we do have is recycled. And obviously scrap metal, once it's no longer can be used for the processes of replacement parts, obviously everybody knows scrap metal's worth something. But we're getting to the point now where we've worked with a local company to us called Preston Plastics. And they help us with the recycling of plastics, 05 plastic, 07 plastics. And that's generally what you see on the back of a chair, the plastic molding. And then you've got the base of the chair as well, which can be recycled. And cardboard, you know, we have our own cardboard compacting system where we can bale the cardboard. And the same company who does the plastic recycling takes that away for us. So we're still playing with different ways of doing it. But we're trying to get as much value out of everything as we can.

True.

But chipboard is probably the hardest and the most photos expensive thing to get rid of. But we're getting better. You know, we're finding out manufacturers of big chipboard jumbo sheets We'll take it and recycle it, but they're charging a premium to do that. That's great.

That's cool. It's great that you're basically practicing what you preach, really.

That's exactly what you're doing.

Have you got any advice for anyone listening to this podcast of what you think that they should do or what you'd like them to do?

Yeah, I mean, obviously, when we're in the procurement stage of buying furniture, I think you should definitely look at organizations that are supplying upcycled office furniture, because there's a lot out there and a lot of people don't really know where to look. So I mean, that's just a quick Google search and you'll find a lot of the right people. But if you really want to support us and what we're doing, look for the ones that are really shouting about upcycling, remanufacturing, and the longevity of it. You know, there's a lot of secondhand dealers out there that will sell secondhand furniture as a byproduct service. of the main agenda, which is just selling lots and lots of furniture. But if people can really look into what companies like ours are doing, you know, there's those— there's Premie Sustain, there's obviously Greg at Ripe Office, there's Over to Hills. These guys, we're all on the same mission to really get this going. But yeah, I think people should, if they can— I mean, we do understand that it is hard as a small business to go out and spend a lot of time looking for sustainable office furniture. And like I said, a lot of the startups that we deal with and the smaller businesses, they're in it to find something that's affordable. And while they're purchasing it, we try and educate them in a way where they're not going, listen, we're not bothered about the impacts of this. We don't need a certificate to say how much CO2 we've just prevented by buying a secondhand desk. And we have to do it in a way where if you have any issues with this secondhand piece of furniture, just know that we're here to keep it going for you. If you want to change the color of it, we can reupholster it if you want. a replacement gas lift, we're here to do it. And then they actually ask the question, because of the whole climate crisis and everything else, they do ask now, they go, why do you do that? Do you not just want to keep selling us a new one every time? No, we don't. You know, we could, we could do, and we would probably be more profitable doing that. The main thing for us is to be pushing something out and having people be able to find some information on upcycled and remanufactured office furniture. And that's why we're trying to centralize it under TCG Sustain. We have just released a video on the importance of reuse. And so we'd love for people to go and see that. That's a nice little—

Maybe we could put a link to that on the podcast notes.

That'd be awesome. That would be really great. Definitely. And we are inviting people to, if they feel like they can help us with this, we're open to hearing what people have got to say, maybe how we should change certain things, change different, you know, the message to get across. Because we haven't perfected it. You know, we're still learning our own craft. Yes, we've been doing it for a long time, but we're only as good as what we know right now. And one thing that we're finding and we're really learning is by letting other people in from the same space, whether it be a service for service or just finding out some information on how they got into someone on the sustainability side, on the sustainability angle. Yeah, we would love to talk and possibly collaborate and really work some kind of partnerships. and synergy partnerships, definitely.

Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for today. It's been really informative. We'll be putting all your— all the show notes in. And where can we find out more information about you as a company and yourself as well, maybe?

Yeah, definitely. We're very active on LinkedIn. I think this is where what we're doing really fits. We're all over social media. You can search the Cogging Group on pretty much any social platform. TCG Direct is another brand that's actually a sub-brand, which is A platform where we resell our upcycled office furniture. But yeah, if you search Sam Coggin on LinkedIn, that's the best place to catch me, definitely.

Brilliant. And all of those will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for today. And yeah, go back to your honeymoon. Thank you so much for doing this on your honeymoon. I can't believe it.

No problem at all. Thank you very much, Will.

Cheers.

Awesome. Bye-bye.

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