E077 - Deanna Cook from Liya Collective

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Welcome back to the Green Element Podcast, where we feature business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable. I'm your host, Will Richardson, and I can't wait to meet our guest today and help you on your journey of sustainability. Today we've got Deanna Cook from the Leah Collective on, and she runs a fashion company that produces silk scarves. And wow, you are just about to be taken on a journey of how silk is made from start to finish. It's fascinating. I can't wait to hear more. Welcome, Diana, to the Green Element Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's a pleasure to invite you all the way from Canada. I love it. You're Canadian, aren't you?

That's right. I'm Canadian, but I actually am living in Costa Rica right now. So a little further south.

Living the dream. Do you surf?

I am amateur. I've tried it out a couple of times, but I wouldn't say I'm very good. It's still, it's a blast anyway.

Whereabouts in Costa Rica are you?

So my partner and I live in a town called Playas del Coco. It's in the northwest of Costa Rica in Guanacaste province.

I have been. It's beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful. Yeah. A mate of mine and me went there to kitesurf. So we actually went to the south. No, to the north. I can't now. My brain is just fried. I can't remember. Anyway, there is only one kitesurfing destination and we went there and then ended up travelling around and going to lots of different places as well. It's beautiful country. Absolutely beautiful country.

It really is. I feel so lucky to be here.

It's actually really environmental as well, isn't it? It's been really progressive with renewables. energy and environmental legislation.

Yes. Costa Rica has been renowned for that and pushing a lot of policies, creating change, and kind of being a voice on the world stage. And as such a small country, it's, it's great, the kind of progress and the ripples they've been able to make.

We are going to get onto the Lear Collective at some point and what it is that you do, and I'll get you to introduce yourself. But is it the Léa Collective that brought you to Costa Rica, or is it your other half's job, or was it the environmentalism and the fact that it's so sustainable?

Well, it's kind of a combination of things. I have spent the better part of the past decade living abroad, and it's been these experiences living around the world, working with different sustainable businesses, seeing what sustainability means in different parts of the world that led me to start Léa Collective in the first place. The move to Costa Rica, of course, we were interested in living here because of all the great things we already talked about. But my partner did find a job. He's a teacher in an international school here. So that spearheaded the move to Costa Rica. And at this stage I'm at in Léa Collective where I can be flexible, do a lot of my work online, work with suppliers and partners. and collaborators all around the world. It's a great home base for me to have right now. But the first collection is actually being developed in Thailand. So it was Thailand that I was in just before Costa Rica, kind of working on product development and building the collection.

So tell us more about the Leah Collective and what it is that you do.

Absolutely. So Leah Collective is a new sustainable fashion and accessory brand. Primarily creating minimalist accessories for the modern woman. So as I said, it was born out of my experiences working and living around the world, collaborating with different producers and makers, sustainable businesses, social enterprises in different communities, and really born out of a desire to honor the traditional skill sets of the regions in which I'd worked. While creating economic opportunities and introducing products to the global market. So the first collection is a number of silk scarves that I have developed with my partners in Thailand, and they will be launching this spring 2020. So we're really kind of reimagining what it means to be a slow fashion brand in the modern era. What it means to be sustainable as a small business, working with consumers, kind of opening the conversation and taking a look at it from the ground up.

So silk scarves first, and will you be going on to other things? And yes, yes.

Yes, we will be.

And I know that this is starting to happen more and more with locally produced clothing, I guess, is one way to put it, is it's having input from the country that it's going to be imported to because it's starting to be known that actually it's brilliant to buy local wares from Thailand in this case, but it will be slightly different and people won't buy— they'll buy it for novelty and go, yes, this is brilliant, but if it's influenced by you and then therefore it's going to be more longer lasting because you're almost using the reasons why you're buying in Thailand and influencing the market that you're selling to.

Of course. And that's why I say that this has— products have really been developed in partnership. I am not the expert in silks. Thailand has a very rich history and tradition in silk production, and it's been a huge part of the culture and history, especially in rural areas for millennia. So while I've learned a lot about silk, I'm not the expert in that area. But when I'm working with my partners, I do have experience in marketing, in product development, in community engagement. And so I'm bringing different ideas to my potential consumers. And something that I am really passionate about and is a core tenet of the brand is this idea of minimalism. So there's both functional minimalism, having less, and aesthetic minimalism, simplifying, like having a classic simple look and silhouette. And I think one of the problems with the fast fashion industry, of course there are many, from environmental problems to— the lifecycle of products. But one of the problems that often gets overlooked is that trends are changing so quickly that someone who wants to be fashionable, quote unquote, is out to buy a product that they can't wear 6 months down the road because it's no longer in style. And for me, as someone who You know, I'm constantly moving and traveling all over in, in and out of different cultures. I've just always found that a bit insane that we— our clothes, maybe they are perfectly good quality. There's no damage or wear, but especially with women, I think this is less the case with men's fashion. It seems to evolve more slowly, but women's fashion changes at such a rapid pace. that people are throwing things out or feeling that they can't wear their clothes because they are out of style or not trendy anymore. So that's what I mean by functional minimalism. And in working with my partners, I really wanted to focus on the basics, focus on a classic look, the simple aesthetic that will last people for years and years to come, something that they can pair with anything in their closet and not something that they'll find they can't wear next season. So, the process has been a really collaborative one, pulling from human-centered design and, you know, prototyping, design thinking, getting feedback from both the makers and the consumers. But that's something that I feel very strongly about, and I think it's something that needs to change with the fast fashion industry.

Absolutely. And we're seeing quite a fundamental shift in the UK with that. I think that's possibly mainstream, not, but there's, there's an underlying shift that is clearly going on. And you can see that happening with newspapers and the media talking about it. And even more high street brands actually starting to think about renting clothes. And it's, there's quite a big high street women's brand. I can't remember what their name is, but they've actually got a clothing line that you can rent now. And I think it's, that is being addressed quite a lot.

There are a lot of new business models out there in the fashion industry. Like Rent the Runway is a big one for clothing rental. But the secondhand industry has also really seen a huge revitalization. Whereas maybe a decade ago, the younger generation, millennials, which I am one, might have thought that thrift shopping or vintage clothes weren't cool to buy. That's becoming a lot more in vogue. And so there's a lot of emerging business models. It doesn't have to be buying new. You know, consumption in itself isn't inherently sustainable. If someone is going to buy new, they want to make sure they're doing it as sustainably as possible. But there are lots of other ways to be sustainable with what we're wearing. It doesn't always involve, you know, something new.

Do you think that— I mean, you say 10 years ago, people didn't buy secondhand as much, but if I remember going into secondhand shops, And then going into secondhand shops now, the quality and the depth of what you could buy in those shops really wasn't that good anyway. So you kind of went into them and went, I don't really want an army jacket or an old balaclava. I don't know. I'm just— it was kind of secondhand clothes that you kind of went, actually, my granddad may have chucked those out.

Yeah.

But actually, now you go into them and I think I think the quality is much better. I don't know whether the quality is much better. Maybe it's because I've become less fussy as I'm getting older. I don't know. But I think the quality is getting better.

Yeah. And I think part of that is, you know, the marriage of supply and demand. More consumers are interested in purchasing secondhand, so their secondhand shops are really stepping up the game. But also a lot of it, I think, people are really more considering the end of life of their garments. Whereas a few decades ago, perhaps someone would have put something in the trash or donated it to a thrift shop that would have not resold it locally, but exported it to a developing country. I think there's a growing awareness about the end of life cycle of our garments. And what we can do with it. There's still huge growth to be made, but I am starting to see these conversations happen more and more often, and people are asking questions, and there's definitely more interest across the board.

So can you take us through, without, I guess, without giving away any trade secrets, but take us through this process, say, from growing the silk, all the way through to you. And so that I understand, you know, the sustainability part of it and our listeners understand how you've put things together.

Yes, absolutely. And first I want to say that I am not a fan of trade secrets. I think that's a big problem with the fashion industry, with many industries, but I think it's something that needs to change. Consumers have a right to know how their products are made. Yeah, absolutely. And it's not available or accessible knowledge in many industries.

Hmm.

So, with silk, the beginning of the process is really with the mulberry plant. So, farmers grow huge mulberry crops, huge fields of mulberry, and that is the plant that silkworms feed on. So, the farmers are growing this plant, the silkworms will feed on mulberry, And after a few weeks of feeding, once they've reached maturity, they will spin themselves a cocoon. The cocoon is produced out of this silk fiber. Now, in traditional silk production, the farmers take the cocoon and put it in boiling water. So this kills the silkworm and loosens the sericin that binds the silk fiber together so the farmer can unroll it. So this is something that consumers should have knowledge of. Traditional silk production is not vegan. It is a natural protein fiber and the silkworms die in traditional silk production in most of the silk around the world.

Mm-hmm.

There are some types of silk, peace silk as it's commonly known, where the farmers will wait Until the silkworm has left the cocoon naturally, although that breaks the fiber. So it creates a silk thread and a silk textile that has more pills and it's not a continuous fiber. So going back to the traditional method of silk production, the farmers— Then unweave the silk fiber and put it through machine that's able to take about a dozen pieces of the fiber and twist it or spin it into a single thread. The thread is then often it's dyed at this stage, whether using natural or chemical synthetic dyes, depending on who's making it, what the processes are. And then after the dyeing process, it is woven into fabric, the silk textile that you are probably imagining in your head. Once the textile is made, then it basically can go on to kind of garment workers, the cut and sew workers, to make any type of silk textile product that you imagine— scarves, pillows, dresses, etc.— and finished.

And so at that point, it is then I mean, this is your product. It's then shipped to Canada?

Right. So that's the traditional silk process. For my process, it's a little different because with Lio, we're kind of at the intersection of using small-scale farmers and some established companies. It's very difficult as a foreigner to break into the silk industry in Thailand and to work with some of the artisans. So in my process, we do work with some established companies that are able to help us with the export process and finish it. So our products are woven by machines. We use machine looms. They are dyed after the weaving process. We actually use a water-based silk print, an ink, a water-based ink to dye it. And then we have a group of sewers, a collection of artisans sew hand-rolled hems. Our partner then does the quality control. This is at the headquarters in Bangkok where I was living before. And then from Bangkok, they're able to ship it to Canada. So that is the full lifecycle of Leah.

And the payment process, because I'm now thinking about it from an ethical point of view and The people that are being paid to do the work, how is that representative across the board from Canada through to Thailand? Do you have living wage or fair wage or what do you call it? And how does that work? And how do you know that that's happening as well?

Right. That's a great question. And of course, there are certifications, like if a company is a B Corp or if they have the Global Organic Textile Standard. There are a number of certifications that can help inform consumers or buyers about a company's working practices. But what I found is that a lot of these certification bodies, the process is quite expensive and it can be onerous to do all the paperwork. And, you know, often the paperwork and everything is in English. And if that's not the language of the company, it can be a really difficult process. So what I've learned is just because a company doesn't have a certification doesn't mean it's not operating sustainably. You have to do a little bit more work in order to kind of tease that out and do some investigation. So the companies that I've worked with, there are companies that work for the Factories. For example, the factory that mills our fabric and the factory that processes the original silk fibers. But a lot of people along the supply chain are what we would call independent contractors. You know, they're the small-scale farmers. They're the individual artisans. So for me, it's a matter of visiting the workplaces, getting to know people along the supply chain. Along my supply chain, people are setting their own rate. I don't negotiate the price. They set the fair price based on what they need to make. And as it goes along the supply chain, I'm not setting the price of silk. The, you know, company isn't setting the price of the silk fibers. So it happens differently in the developing world sometimes. We don't, you know, the companies I'm working with are very, are often small family-owned businesses and they don't have these kinds of certifications. But with a bit of investigation, getting to know people, building personal relationships and in-person visiting, I think you're able to get a lot better understanding of how they actually work. And it's not perfect. It's not a perfect system. I'll be the first to admit there's a lot of improvements that could be made to prove to consumers that what I say is true or what my suppliers say is true. There are definitely—

That's quite hard though. That is quite hard. I mean, the communications and the, as you say, I mean, it's a different world and it's not the same. You can't compare like for like. So I get what you're saying. And I think the fact that you have been along that process yourself and spoken to people is credence in itself. And that's surely going to help people understand that you do know what you're talking about.

Yeah, I hope so. And, you know, I think that conversations about this kind of stuff is changing and it's evolving because of the emergence of so many more small businesses and small brands. And people are understanding, you know, I trust the person who sells me tomatoes at my local farmer's market, not because they have an organic food certification because I know that farmer and I have a relationship with that farmer and I trust them. So it's kind of going back to how business was done before, before all of this, just building those relationships, building trust. And I think the key piece of it is transparency.

Yeah, absolutely. Transparency is definitely the key to pretty much everything though. I'm always surprised about how I guess it's not transparent people are, but the questions that they don't ask because they're worried about asking those questions. And I am one of those people in meetings that will just ask a question. I don't care. It's not that I don't care about the person, or I— it's more that I don't actually care about what it makes me look like. I know the longer term is going to be much better to understand the answer that I'm asking. And that falls into that transparency, I think. And it's— but I think more and more people are starting to go, actually, it's not that you've got egg on your face. It's just that actually it's logical. And it's more—

And I think the goal with anything in sustainability, the goal can't be perfection from day one. You know, it's— there's always going to be ways to improve. There's no such thing as a perfectly 100% sustainable company, product, person, anything. There's always ways to improve. And if you ask that question and you get an answer that isn't ideal or isn't what you were expecting, you know, things can change. And maybe that— what that means is there's an opportunity for improvement.

Yeah, absolutely. And so where do you see the fashion industry going? Because we've talked about sustainable fashion. Where do you see, you know, we can't carry on producing these— we've got all these companies in these Western countries that produce, and I don't want to name any names, to be honest with you. I don't know if I'm allowed to or whatever, but it doesn't really matter. It's fast fashion. Do you see that stopping at some point? Do you see us—

I think there will always be corporations that are pushing the capitalistic model of rapid consumption that is inherent to fast fashion. But as we've seen over the past 5, 10 years, there is a growing interest in sustainable fashion, ethical fashion, slow fashion. And I think that shift is happening more and more with younger generations who are quickly becoming quickly getting buying power and quickly becoming the largest sector of the market. So I think that if brands want to keep up, if they want to stay relevant, they're going to have to make some changes. There's going to have to be major shifts, whether that means being more transparent about their production, whether that means slowing down the rate at which they're releasing new collections. Another thing that I think really has to change and is a major problem is that fast fashion is cheap. And sustainable fashion is often expensive because, you know, if we're paying people living wages, if we're using quality materials, that's going to be more expensive. But that can sometimes put Fast fashion or slow fashion at a price point that feels inaccessible to a lot of consumers. So I think there are mindset shifts that are going to happen. There are economic shifts, shifts on both the corporate and the consumption side of things. I think we're going to be seeing a lot of change in the next few decades.

Yeah. Nice. And it'll be a good thing. It's such an interesting subject, isn't it? And I was talking to someone today, and I don't know if it's slightly controversial. It's controversial because people don't like Trump, but to be honest with you, it's not particularly. What he was saying to me was one of the things that Trump has done with Mexico with these trade wars is he's actually raised the living wage in Mexico. Because they're less likely to come to the US if they're paid more in Mexico. And no one's actually talking about that.

Mm-hmm.

I found that really interesting because as much as— and I'm guilty as well as the next person, Trump this, Trump that, but that's surely a good thing. And I think we could learn from? What has he done in order for that to happen? So we could learn from that and actually go, right, you've done this in your very small circle. Let's face it, Mexico and the USA have got a very good relationship and they are very circular. But other countries can do that with— like, we could do it with India and China, understanding what's has happened there and looked at that shift in trade dynamics in order to raise the wage and whether it's possible as well.

Yeah. I mean, the fact of the matter, some people, if you're not a fan of fashion, you might just brush it off as something trivial, aesthetic, not relevant to the bigger issues facing the world right now. But really, if we're talking about supply If we're talking about employment, living wages, fashion, and lots of industries, they're innately tied to politics, to trade, to globalization. This is really part of a larger conversation and it does— actions in one country can have huge implications in another. And I think as business owners in this era, it's good to be aware of. You know, maybe something that I do with Leah Collective isn't going to have the same kind of implications as something Trump does, but we do have the power with business to make these kinds of changes.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think one of the things that I see is the conversations aren't international enough. Like, and I can only speak from the UK and from what I read in the UK. So I may be wrong from what I've read as well. But I feel that sustainability can become quite an insular way of thinking. Oh, look what we're doing in the UK. I mean, they're not saying in the UK, look at the world, what we're doing in the UK. It's more, look what we're doing. We're trying to do this, we're trying to do that and trying to be more sustainable. But actually it's bringing the conversations in from everywhere and it quite possibly does happen within the larger fashion houses, but from a local producer. And I think it's— we liked when we read your bio and we looked at what you're trying to do and what you've done at the Lir Collective was that trail through that you described of actually understanding what's going on in Thailand and going all the way through to Canada.

Yeah, it's important to understand that it's all connected and that You know, just because I am the voice of the brand right now doesn't mean that I am the only person behind this brand. Any product that you have has gone through hundreds of hands and has had input from likely all over the world. And just being able to step back, reflect on that, listen to the conversations happening around you, I think is No, absolutely.

Thank you so much for being on today. It's been really interesting talking to Deanna. Thank you. What time is it where you are, just out of curiosity?

It is 2:30 in the afternoon.

Nice, nice. It's 8:30 in the evening here.

Yeah.

All right, brilliant. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on today. I've really enjoyed talking to you and actually understanding where silk comes from, to be honest with you. It dawned on me when you said mulberry. I now know where Mulberry, the brand, fashion brand, obviously comes from. It comes from silk. I never, ever, ever knew that.

And so there are actually a number of other products that Mulberry can make as well. When I was in Thailand visiting the silk fiber factory and seeing some of the farms, I actually was treated to Mulberry ice cream from the same farms that the silkworms feed on. So yeah, mulberry is— it's a big thing and there's always more you can learn.

Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you very much for your time.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

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