E080 - Camilla Haugsten from Ouroboros

Quick word from our sponsor, 51tocarbonzero.com. If you're a CFO or board member staring down CSRD or Scope 3 and thinking, where do we even start? We at Sustainability Solved would point you to 51tocarbonzero.com. They turn complex, fragmented emissions data into something simple and give boards clear, audit-ready visibility on exactly where the reduction opportunities are. It's not another reporting tool that adds work. It's built so the data holds up when your auditor asks the hard questions. If that's a conversation worth having, get in touch with 51tocarbonzero.com, or just drop me a message and I'll point you in the right direction. Right, back to the episode.

Welcome back to the Green Element Podcast. where we feature business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable. I'm your host, Will Richardson, and I can't wait to meet our guest today and help you on your journey of sustainability. Today we have Camilla on from Ouroboros, and they are a Norwegian company that help organizations and business leaders become more sustainable. And there's so much more to it than that, and she has so much more to say than just that kind of catchphrase. It's— I think it's a really interesting conversation, and she's been doing and in sustainability for a very long time, and we can learn an awful lot from her experience and the way that she looks at sustainability as a whole. So I hope you really enjoy the podcast. Hi Camilla, welcome to the Green Element Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. You work for a company called Ouroboros. Please, why don't you let us know about, you know, who you are, what you are, what Ouroboros does?

Well, thank you, Will, and thank you for hosting me. Okay, so Ouroboros. Well, first, we currently are witnessing an unprecedented shift in the way that businesses relate and interact with the world. And Ouroboros is founded on that very premise of really harnessing the unbridled potential of business as a vehicle towards a sustainable future. So it's really founded on that purpose. And some call us a coaching consultancy for business and sustainability, which means that we primarily focus on making business sense out of sustainability. That's at least the way that I prefer to say it, working to accelerate a sustainable society and creating business results with embedded environmental gains to follow. I'm not sure you mentioned, but we're also Scandinavian-based with an office both in Norway, Oslo, and Denmark, Copenhagen. And although we are Scandinavian-based, we like to see ourselves as global participants. We like to have a global reach and also work with partners from different corners of the world.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you work, you do work outside Scandinavia as well as just inside Scandinavia? Okay. I don't think I realized that. Maybe you did tell me that when we first met, actually. And how long have you been doing this sustainability and for?

In terms of me personally, this is not a new quest for me. I started my career when I was 9 years old following the Chernobyl event. That's really what carved out my journey in terms of what I wanted to do with my life and how I wanted to contribute. And professionally, I've been working within this field for, well, more than 20 years, which means that I've been part of and also journeyed together with environmental movement and many of the different shifts that that movement have gone through, including— and people that's been part of that movement will hopefully understand what I'm referring to— because including in those shifts means also having to renew oneself as the agenda evolved. And because it started out being kind of like direct actions and really opposing everything, and it was all about getting awareness. And then we had our identity in that position being this environmental warrior. But then we moved onward to the next stage, and we had to leave that identity behind. So being and living within this movement has been it's been quite a few shifts in identity, professional identity. But yeah, so I just wanted to share that it's not something that I've chosen to do in recent years once this green shift has become trending. It's something that's been with me for, yeah, well, forever.

It's interesting you talk about that because in that time with the green shift that you're talking about, and I totally relate to it, is Because what I say is, well, it became— it was important, less important, important, less important, and we're actually on the third kind of important. And every time you get to an important stage, I feel it's more important than the important stages before. But I don't know whether that's just me being optimistic going, yes, it's definitely going to happen this time. And I actually think that's a bad thing for people like me to be saying that because actually that puts a tiny bit of negativity into it. And some would say realism, but actually you don't want to have that because you want to have that surge of, yeah, everything is going to be brilliant and we are going to be— but I hadn't thought the environmental warrior bit was the bit that got me. And I actually remember that. And yeah, that's brilliant.

Yeah. As for Ouroboros, we founded Ouroboros close to 6 years ago now. So we're not a very old company, but still hanging in there doing our services.

And what services do you do? Is it mainly coaching and online coaching or?

Yeah, well, it's maybe, let me just first probably share like our target audience because our target audience is leadership. We're really trying to reach out to leadership, business leaders that are dedicated or have already made up their mind in terms of business and sustainability being a fit coming together. Although, so some may be early in their journey, others have been working with it, this for some time and just want to figure out what their next step is and kind of like elevating their lead, so to say. So what we do is within that span from the people that are beginning of their journey to the one that's more mature in their journey, there are also different maturity levels in terms of how to— obviously in terms of how to relate to this. So we do everything from a very simplified sustainability due diligence of a company, figuring out where lies the opportunities really harnessing or figuring out the sweet spot where you can actually achieve business results as well as having that embedded positive environmental effects of the effort. So it's everything from really getting launched with all small pieces of strategic elements to a full coverage of full company strategy, all the way to the top where sustainability becomes that integral part of a business DNA. So it's the full span of strategy.

Mm-hmm.

And very much Followed with a coaching approach. So you have that support system following all the shifts and changes that is happening and has to happen throughout the business transformation and cultural nourishment to accompany that.

You must be privy to quite a lot of really cool information, and you must see some great cultural shifts within companies as well. In that position?

Uh, yeah. Well, sometimes yes. And sometimes it's me. Well, obviously, obviously yes. But sometimes I'm really surprised in terms of, let me just share this one thing. It's not because it's, it happened fairly recently and it's almost that, um, I can't believe I didn't discover it sooner.

Right.

Yeah. Because today, even though, well, so I've been here within this field for a long time and I see that it's more, substance, like the movement that's happening now, the actions, the conversations, everything, it holds more substance to it. So it's more deeply rooted. However, it's still very much a communication agenda. And I really would like for us to get out of that position where it's this communication agenda. So what happened was that we were discussing with— or the first time it happened, then I've observed it several times. The first time it happened, we were discussing the Sustainable Development Goals with— it was not a client, but it was a company. And it's just simply a conversation and asking them, like, how are they working with the Sustainable Development Goals? And the person were like proud and relaxed and happy because they had sorted it. And then asking further, it revealed that they were satisfied because they had now discovered how their relationship with the Sustainability Development Goals could be in terms of like how they could position themselves within them and then how they can communicate from that. So their pain had been not understanding what this agenda was about and how it referred to them, like to me. And now they had figured out a way of communicating from them. So pain released, problem solved. And when on a follow-up question I was asking, So what did you actually change? What did you do differently? Well, we now know that goal number 8 is our goal. So we haven't really done anything differently. And then the person kind of started thinking, and well, when you put it that way—

No.

Yeah, we will have to look at this again. So the thing is that it's not, it's not from bad will. It's just that that's where the for many, the reflection level still lies. And it was a surprise to me because I thought we had moved past this level. And yeah, and it's just really a reality check in terms of how to meet the market. So yes, I still get very much surprised about the conversations that I have out there in the market. And on the one end, and on the other end, I profoundly get some— learn so much from our clients and leaders at times in terms of their perspectives and reflections and philosophical standpoint when it comes to leadership and what it holds, and believing in almost like a new rise of leadership having to emerge for us to move onwards in this agenda. So it's, I mean, it's, yeah, I experienced the full range of everything.

Do you find that it could be people and it could be, I guess, nationalities, but there's a difference in people that you speak to from different countries with the way that they think about sustainability? Or do you find that it actually comes down to the person, not the country?

I think it comes down to the person and the function that that person holds in their professional lives. Because that's where you're mainly challenged in your thought and your thought processes and need to come up with new answers all the time. So I think it's very much— it's a combination of the function and the person, but obviously all cultural backgrounds being a business culture and a nationality or region culture, even city culture, will affect people. I'm not sure I can say anything very precise in terms of like country-wise. Although, yeah, but I mean, people look to Scandinavia for being like a green area of the world. And I want to be part of that leadership, although being on the inside, I— but that could be my personality. I still think that we do not do enough.

Sure.

I really think that we need to, because we hold the position that we have in the world and that we have all the opportunities and the resources that we have, that we very much so should step up and just show and lead by a different example, by an even stronger leadership position. So that's— and you can say in Scandinavia, it's kind of like a very, very, very teeny tiny small area. On the planet. And some of the conglomerates and some of the companies are way larger. And so it's not merely the nationalities and the national or the country-wise culture that are of as much importance. I think that what really fuels an interesting discussion is talking about business culture. And how nurturing a business culture that can facilitate change and transformation and helping people, employees and leaders at all levels, really stay the course and kind of find— I don't know how to say this a better way, but find rest, even like being in change, because being in change is something you are over a period of time. It's not something you are one day and the next day it's over. So you have to kind of find a way to be in that state of changing so that we manage to get through and on to another journey. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it actually makes complete sense. And I think that the conversations, I mean, Recently on the podcast, I've been talking to quite a lot of people around the world, but a few number from the US. And of course, the person I'm talking to in the US is going to be green. But actually, it's not necessarily that. It's the stuff that they're saying about what's going on around them. And we're not told about it in our media. But there is definitely a business, and it's actually what you said, it's a business shift. And there seems to be quite a lot going on in the US that I don't think is being referred to or inferred to at any point in discussions because the US is put on a pedestal as badness. But actually, I think there's quite a lot of stuff that's going on from a business point of view. in the US, and I think that's the case around the world as well. And it's an interesting place to be where it's actually businesses that are driving forward and not governments.

Yeah.

And so you have people like Microsoft, whether you agree or disagree or can't work out how they're going to do it, That kind of doesn't matter. The fact they've said they're going to be carbon negative by 2030, I think, or 2050, I can't remember. But whatever it is, it's the fact that such a big company is willing to say things like that. They may get it wrong in the first instance and it may not be necessarily correct, But they are actually going to be driving that agenda and they will get it correct by the end of it. But it's better to say something slightly wrong than nothing at all, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, I completely agree. And honestly, I wouldn't believe them or even believe in them if they had said that, and we have the strategy ready, we know how to do this, because we don't. It's really about— so I'm a very firm believer and we need, I mean, obviously in, uh, in having visions and having an ambitious goal. Uh, but that's kind of like the general direction of things. And then it's really about paying attention and making out what's the, what's the next and the best step and let things unfold from there because things keep changing all the time. And if we look to, I don't know what the half, life of knowledge is anymore. It used to be 5 years and then it was 4 years and I don't know, maybe it's 3 years now. So things keep changing, like the pace of change is so super fast. So if you lay out a strategy now and you commit to that and you invest in all kinds of different pathways to see that through in a specific way, I don't think that's what's going to serve neither the company or the ecosystem that takes part around that company the best way. So I think it's— yeah, I'm really glad that they're kind of like, we're determined to do this and we're starting out. We don't have all the pieces in place, which I think I salute that. I think that is really good. And I think that's the honest and the bold way to lead, really.

Yeah, absolutely. You talked about communication before, and I'm quite keen to explore that within your role while talking to businesses and business leaders. What's the best way that you have seen from an effective point of view— so what's the most effective way that you've seen people communicate with staff and try to change culture within organisations?

Okay, so one of the things we— like, the people that we work with, our clients, they are somewhat always— because we are founded on the premise that we are— they are always somewhat aligned with what we— our purpose as a business. But I think it's safe to say that we always stretch and challenge them in terms of their greater potential. And one of the ways we do that is addressing their business identity. Because if they figure out a way, or if they kind of like— when we open up that discussion, for in many occasions, it becomes real to the company that the identity that they have is formed or based upon a position they had in the past. It's not an identity they can lead with going into the future. So when we start this kind of discussions, I mean, call it identity coaching or vision coaching or whatever, and they are able to determine and deciding a different identity, different coordinates of identity, that affects their whole business. That affects— really affects where they're communicating from. And that's my point. It's kind of like the point where you're communicating from, that's when you have effective communication. Because if there's a misalignment with the communication you're trying to portray and the identity you hold as a company or even as a person, it doesn't really work. So you need to be in alignment with your identity and really rooted in that and talking from that perspective, basically then all communication works because it's authentic. People believe it. So working with identity of businesses as a way of facilitating and boosting cultural change, development, evolution, I think it's really, really key and super exciting as well.

I love to And what would you say, one piece of advice to our listeners to help them with their purpose?

One piece of advice to help them with their purpose. In terms of that, I would really— actually, I would explore that identity position, and then I would challenge that identity position. You can do that from different perspectives, but there is this Japanese concept of ikigai. Have you heard about that? No, it was a business coach that introduced it like for real. I've heard about it before, but I didn't really grasp it before. And then I also journeyed to Japan studying it a bit further. But it's a concept that kind of involves different dimensions. So it involves what— a dimension of what the world needs, what you get paid to do, what you're good at as a company, and also where you have your passion or where you what you love, and then talking from a company identity. So the intersection between those 4 dimensions is the concept of ikigai, which means what makes— I think it means what makes life's purpose or something like that. So it's at least a way of exploring that position. But a simpler way of doing it is really just looking to like, what position do we hold in in society, in business society, in the greater society today? What services is it that we are providing? And what could it be? If I were to choose on the highest shelf ever, what could it be? Like, what role could we hold in the greater society? A client of ours, just to give an example, a client of ours, it's a Swedish sign-producing company, or at least that's what they used to be.

Right.

It's kind of an interesting process because they— we had this identity discussion with them. And they used to be— they used to present themselves as, we are a sign-producing company. And they had a very, very well-crafted sustainability strategy. So they had a— they were a sign-producing company with a sustainability strategy. But after working a bit and exploring different identity positions, they become a communicator, a visual communicator in urban environments. I think holding or portraying positive impact for environments and the planet, or humans and planets, something like that. But it's also, they kind of like, they expanded their, immediately expanded their role and And they even almost like they expanded their company as well because the reach became larger and their responsibility, the interaction with the world, the opportunities in terms of collaborative partners, and that point of decision-making for how to communicate, how to explore opportunities, how to develop their business immediately shifted. So now they're not Interesting. Yeah.

And you can see that, you can see the way that they would have evolved. Yeah, that's, that's, that's a really cool example. I like it. What's the best way that we can connect with you and understand more about what it is that you do? And obviously all the links will be on our show notes as well.

Yeah, well, As a general invitation, anyone listening and finding this interesting and see a win-win somehow, I would really love for you to reach out. I always love to talk to people, like fellow travelers, I would say, and see if there are more things for us to explore together. And you can reach out either through our website or in my personal LinkedIn profile. But actually, if I may, there are a couple of things that we are looking for as well right now.

Yeah.

So one thing we are looking to build our team. So we have taken a couple of years and found our way into the market and our way of working within this field. And now we've decided that we want to scale. So There are 2 perspectives to this. Come work for us if you're interested. But the other one is that we'd love to co-create. And this is what I wanted to share. We like to co-create a training program, or, or you can call it like a train-the-trainer program for people who want to take advantage and learn about the way that we apply our models and methodology and then want to take those onwards in their own practices and endeavours. So if anyone thinks that's interesting, I'd also very much love to hear about that.

Brilliant. Well, I'll share that on LinkedIn as well. And yeah, that's great. That's cool. That's exciting.

Yeah, it is.

Thank you so much for coming on today, Camilla. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you, and I feel like I could have carried on Yeah. I could talk to you for ages, but I do know that we've got a kind of 40 minutes, and I don't— the listener is going to be like, okay, it's usually about 40 minutes. I'm aware of that. Maybe we could have you on another time.

I'd love to do a follow-up. Brilliant.

Follow up on who's actually come in and talked to you and that journey of— because you will have ended up speaking to loads of really cool people.

Yeah, that's—

because we aren't going to solve sustainability as individuals, are we? We are literally going to solve sustainability as a whole. And there is no magic pill. There's no— I can't remember, but you know what I'm saying.

Yeah, I get you.

Panacea is what I was trying to say. There's no panacea. Brilliant, thank you so much.

Thank you for having me. Thank you so much, and I'd love to come back.

Brilliant, brilliant. I'll take you up on that. Okay. Thank you so much for listening to the end of this episode of the Green Element Podcast. Do take a moment and share this with your friends and colleagues and rate and review the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. I'd love to know what has been your biggest takeaway What are you going to do differently? Please share your thoughts across social media and tag us so we can see them too, @GE_podcast. For links and show notes for this episode, visit our website greenelement.co.uk/podcast. Thank you again. I hope you will join me on the next episode, and together we can help create a better world.