E100 - Daniele Russolillo and Carmen Romero from Planet Smart City

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Welcome back to the Green Element Podcast, where we feature business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable. I'm your host, Will Richardson, and I can't wait to meet our guest today and help you on your journey of sustainability. Carmen, Danny, welcome to the Green Element Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. today. I'm really looking forward to finding out more about Planet Smart City and what it is that you guys do. It's a very different and alternative organization, and you've got a massive impact on purpose-driven— as a purpose-driven business. So I'm really looking forward to hearing more.

Thank you.

Thank you so much, and thank you for having us today in your podcast.

So good. Yeah, I mean, maybe to start with you, Danny, if you could let us know a bit about who you are within the organization and give us a bit of a framework around what your organization does.

Sure, absolutely. My name is Daniele Russolillo. As you can anticipate from my name and surname, I'm an Italian guy. I joined Planetsmart City, I would say, 2 years and a half ago. It's a very young company, constituted 4 years and a half ago. So somebody calls us a startup, actually we are more like a scale-up now. You will understand when I will tell you more about the company. My role in the company is to serve as the Chief Operations Officer and also as Deputy CEO of the global group. Our company is based in London where we have our global headquarters, and then we also have offices in Italy, Brazil, India, and very soon the United States.

Okay. And what is it that you're— what's your elevator pitch?

Well, it's pretty cool, I have to say. We try to disrupt the affordable housing sectors worldwide. You have to know that today there are almost 1.5 billion people, let's say 400 million households, who are living in really unsafe, overcrowded homes all over the world without services and in very bad conditions. We are trying to give a housing solution to these people with a twist. The first twist is we are very, very keen to use digital transformation in what we do. And secondly, we strongly believe, because we are a very people-centric organization, to go along with a strong social innovation framework. And I have to tell you, just because our company develops— I mean, we buy land, we develop the infrastructure, we build homes, we sell homes, and then we create this social innovation framework and we give people access to a digital ecosystem for free that we build. We tend to create places that we say are places that matter, because if you look around the world and you go to China, to Brazil, to India, just give it your numbers. In India in this moment, the housing deficit is a staggering number— 35 million homes. In Brazil, it's more than 7 million. So when you go to these countries and you see how affordable housing is built, conceived, and developed, you will see projects with very poor infrastructure, uh, very bad urban planning, let alone digitalization or social innovation framework. We try to do something dramatically different to let our customers who are going to buy our homes a totally different experience in terms of quality, in terms of relationship between people, and in terms of access to a new way of living in a district, like we usually say. Our project can go from, let's say we have 2 main projects. One we call the city, the affordable smart city, which can go from 1,000 homes to 3,000 homes. But we also build districts that go from 500 housing units to 1,000 housing units. And in this moment, our pipeline is around— it tops, I would say, 12,000 housing units. Our first market is Brazil. Our second market is India. And we are ready to enter also Colombia. And in a little while, we should also have a project launch in the United States because as you understand, Affordable homes is a global topic. It's just not for emerging or developing countries.

So who is it that buys these homes?

People who don't have enough money to buy homes in a very highly dense urban city. I'll give you an example. Our first project, which is Mar City Laguna, which made us very famous all over Brazil, is a place that when we totally populate it, it will host more or less 20,000 to 25,000 35,000 people. So it's actually a little city. People who are going to buy our homes and are already living there are people who cannot afford to buy houses on the free market in Fortaleza, which is 40 minutes driving from that place. So we provide to these people housing solutions they can afford. A home, let's say 600 square foot in our city, it's about, let's say, £25,000 if we're talking pounds, for instance. So it's affordable. It's affordable for whom? For people who probably now are living in favelas or in shantytowns. They have dignity. I mean, they have 2 jobs. Typical example, maybe the dad is a policeman, the mom is a nurse, 2 kids, they go to school, they have clothes, but they can do really much more than that. So they cannot afford homes on the free market. They look for other types of housing solutions. If you don't find them, You try to adapt inadequate housing solutions. Like, as I said, it can be favelas, it can be shantytowns, it can be informal housing. These people have a sort of power purchase that is very limited. This is exactly our client. We provide them homes that they can afford, usually in a long-term mortgage with an amount of monthly installments. It doesn't go more than 30% of the net wage of the working part of the family.

Okay, and so what's the— I'm starting to realize your USP. It's if you're the people that are selling the homes, so you're almost the mortgage company as well. So that's partly why they're cheaper, isn't it? And is it down to the way that you build them as well? I mean, what sort of materials do you use?

Yeah, it's a combination of factors, Will. Actually, we don't have anything to do with the financing of the families. We produce home housing solutions that basically have the price tag I told you, so they're very affordable. But the mortgages are given to our clients by banks at the local level. In some countries, like in Brazil, you will find national policies and measures that basically provide this kind of mortgages because there is a social program going on in Brazil for more than 10 years which has been very successful. In India, it's more articulated. The world of home loans is very rich, so there's no problem in finding banks who want to help families to get these mortgages. Of course, there will be scrutiny, people will be evaluated, and the people who will pass the, let's say, the selection will be able to access these mortgages to buy our homes. How do we make it cheap even if we, like I said, try to create places that matter? So high quality and the digital transformation and social innovation frameworks. Our first thing is the scale. We cannot do what we're doing with the quality we're doing if we're not aiming high, like the large numbers I told you before. If we want to— like, we're about to enter Colombia. We're not going to engage in any project for less than 1,000 homes. If you ask me to do what we do in terms of quality digital transformation, quality infrastructure for something like 50 houses, I would have to say no. So a big part of our, you know, superpower comes from the fact that we always aim at creating large residential projects. Then of course there is a specific attention to the cash flow and the business plan. We are very keen to make lots of efficiency as much as we can. For what is related to the materials, you have to understand something. Sometimes you have to be compliant with regulatory frameworks at the local level that don't give you a lot of, let's say, flexibility in choosing new materials or construction techniques. Within the framework of what we can do, we usually try to do our best in order to keep the construction costs low and keep the sustainability framework high. In particular, for us, it's very important that in places where you have a certain climate condition, the construction materials, the construction technique, the way you you pose the roof or the windows are created in a way that maybe air conditioning is less necessary than you think. We have a lot of attention where we can to use renewable sources for the utility of the home. And of course, there's a great attention that for us is mediated through our digital ecosystem to let people be very aware of the energy consumption, which as you know very well translates directly into the overall environmental impacts that our households will have in the cities that we build.

Okay, and I'm really curious to understand digital transformation because I don't understand what you mean by that, to be honest with you. What do you mean?

Okay, there are 2 aspects on this kind of topic. First of all, you have to imagine that We want to be, I mean, Planet Smart City is a company that basically has 3 business units. One is basically real estate and construction. The second is digital. And the third one is advisory and competence center to bring innovation in everything we're doing. This is a very peculiar trait of us. We have a competence center in Turin in Italy and in Pune in India, where basically you will find more than 100 people, soon to be 200, who try to understand how to bring innovation in all the phases of the typical real estate supply chain. So when I speak about digital transformation, I'm speaking about changing the way our architects and engineers plan, design our projects. You can't do what we need to do unless you embrace innovation as much as you can. I'll give you an example. Imagine you buy land in Brazil. Like our first project is very, very large. We're talking about more than 3.5 million square meters. And imagine that you need to level the land. So you have to do the typical earth-moving operations of a real estate operator. In that case, you have 2 choices. You go traditional. So you start with the topography, you speak with the engineers, and you try to understand what is the cheapest way to do that. Or you totally embrace digital innovation. You totally embrace a new way of designing, like for instance, practices that today are quite innovative but they're not that present in emerging countries, like digital master planning, using algorithms to optimize every single operation that you do. And in that case, you can achieve the same result conserving the environment, moving as little earth as you can, and basically saving money saving the environment, and be quick in what you're doing. And remember, this is just an example of the first phase of the operations that we do. If we go to the, for instance, the infrastructure, and when I speak about infrastructure, I'm speaking about water networks, electricity networks, sewage, even on the— in this case, digital transformation for us is a way that basically you do what you have to be done for the infrastructure, but you never forget the data network. So the ability that we have to put IoT sensors in our infrastructure to be used both at the district level and in our homes ensure that you are basically already creating a future-proof project. So like what we're doing in India, in a traditional way, if you're building a new place, you have to look after the water distribution network. You will have lots of pumps, lots of actuators, lots of systems. In our case, we don't do it traditionally. We already start with a very strong IoT ecosystem and sensors that will let us operate the network with the highest level of efficiency from the economical and environmental point of view. For instance, aiming at saving as much as you can the water resource. And I could go on for the other phases, like in the construction phases or in the selling phases. For the selling, I mean, we are very famous in Brazil because you have to consider that 99% of our sales in Brazil are done totally digitally. People can buy a piece of land directly connecting on their phone, signing the documents on a software from your phone, and complete the transaction basically not even looking at people in their faces. This is so innovative if you think that our main leads in Brazil for the commercial activities are basically born online. Social networks, our websites, everything is pushed on the digital side. You know why that is possible? Because our average client in Brazil, in India, is less than 30 years old. These people are really digitally savvy. They want things done in this way. We're just following the flow, making investments and making and creating in our company a mindset that is embracing digital transformation in all the phases. And this is for what is related to the operations. When we get to the final users, for us, digital transformation, as a main example in our digital ecosystem, basically we have an app which is called the Planet App that serves all the needs of the people in our district and homes. Our apps, which is given for free to our clients, we let people perform a lot of activities. Of course they can check their energy consumption, water consumption. So for us, it's totally important to make people aware of how they're consuming in order to grow their environmental awareness, which is key today. Because at the end of the day, you want to nudge people in changing their environmental behavior. But apart from that, the app can also tell you what's going on in the neighborhood. You can create events, you can create social activities, you can book common places. You can see what's going on for the social innovation framework we have in place. For instance, in every development we have, we developed a social innovation hub, which is basically a place in which people can enjoy stuff for free. I'm talking about libraries for kids, cinema for kids, I'm talking about coworking spaces, I'm talking about sports facilities. All these structures can be booked for free from our app. And I can tell you that people in these countries that want to buy affordable homes do not expect anything of this. One of the biggest parts of our storytelling at the local level is to convince people that because of what we do, we can create those places for them. They don't believe it. They think it's for rich people, but it's not. And also, the last things that Warap can do, can create a marketplace in which we push goods and services for a big discount that obviously we select in terms of sustainability to offer to our customers. I'll give you an example of what we're doing in Milan, for instance. We made a deal with an international operator of white appliances, in that case fridge, and we obtained 60% discount for our clients. What does it mean? It means that if Paulo gets in his home, in his new home in Brazil, and he will need a fridge, he will go to PlanetApp and he won't buy any fridge. You will buy the fridge that we selected with a huge discount, but you can make sure that that fridge will be the most efficient you can find at that price. So people will be naturally put in an environment in which sustainability impact, CO2 reduction is already created for them, and they will find everything super mega easy. And it's not only about fridges, we also can talk about energy contracts. People don't have an idea how to choose the best energy contract for their home. But remember, our infrastructure lets us have an enormous amount of data. I know how many people live in an apartment, how much energy they consume, and how much water they consume. And I can perform services that basically will let us suggest the best deals for our users. This is just a few examples, Will, of what we can do with the digital transformation ecosystem. systems in place for our operations and for our customers.

That's brilliant, that's brilliant. That's one hell of an introduction to your organization. I also wanted to introduce Carmen as well into this, and I think it's probably quite a pertinent time. Carmen, if you could let us know what your role is within the business, please.

Of course. So my name is Carmen Romero and I'm the Chief Impact Officer at Planet. I joined Planet in April of this year. And basically I am helping Planet to really communicate about their impact because they already are doing this intuitively. They have been doing this since the beginning, beginning of the company in 2015. But now we want to put a little bit more structure around it and communicate better around impact and measure more strategically. And so we now have a strategy around 9 SDGs out of the 17, and those 9 SDGs are aligned with our business model. I'm not gonna give you examples of everything that we do for all those 9, although I have them, but— For example, to continue on what Dani was saying about the app, for SDG 4, which is quality education, for example. You have English courses, business skills development courses, technology courses, and craft courses offered for free via the app to all our residents as part of our vision to provide inclusive quality education and lifelong learning opportunities for everyone. You can book these via the app. And just to give you a number, since its inception, Planet Institute, which is our nonprofit arm in Brazil, has provided courses and free learning opportunities to more than 10,000 people, both residents of the smart city and the surrounding community, which also includes youth from the nearby shantytowns, from the favelas. To give you also another example, SDG 5, gender equality, this is one of the very first companies I've come across where they really truly are empowering women by giving them access to the real estate market to become homeowners. In most cases, they're the first in their generation to purchase their own property, which is really amazing. And besides being able to access, manage, save, and grow capital, they can set up their own business. Planet offers commercial spaces for general shops, food markets, and beauticians, etc., to serve the local communities in the various smart cities. And the first year of rent is free for each new business.

Oh, wow.

Huge. Because, you know, the impact of this is so positive for the entrepreneur, they can focus on growing their business without worrying about paying rent. And the other thing that we're doing now is we have created an ESG committee this year as well. We're currently designing our ESG framework that will serve our needs.

When you say ESG, what do you mean by ESG? Because some of our listeners won't—

Oh, of course, environmental, social, and governance. Okay, that's what I mean by ESG.

Sorry.

We can all fall into those acronyms.

And I'm— of course, I understand. And what I also wanted to say is the, you know, the impact at Planet, it's not just impact, it's really something that grows with us every day. It's not a trend, it really is here. And we see see it, how it positively changes people's lives, and how, you know, the quality is so high of that impact. It's just, you know, to give you an example as well, to continue on the discussion about the app, every single smart city or smart district or smart township, in every one of those, there is a community manager. employed by us, speaking with the communities every day, being our direct line to our communities and asking about their wishes and their wants. And this is what feeds the content of the Planet app. And this is why we can really create things that matter for those communities and really make a difference in those communities, because we have this complete direct line to our communities. And these community managers, they live in the smart city with the communities. So they are just there in the middle of everything and they know what's going on. They really can, you know, document and tell and measure and report back to us. And this is why the impact is of such high quality. And to me, this is amazing. Another thing that was amazing during one of my conversations with my colleagues was the incredible attention to detail. I was recently told about, you know, the conversation about the quality of a window frame in one of the smart cities in Brazil. And I've found that such attention to small details such as a window frame is remarkable and really reflects the passion and the vision. And the commitment and the engagement of the co-founders, but also of every single employee to offer the best possible house to their clients, to their residents. And this to me is extraordinary, really. And maybe, you know, in these extraordinary times that we're living now, such as with this virus, we can see how communities are organizing themselves around the planet up to help one another, such as, for example, in Italy, the young people decided to shop for food for people who could not get out of their houses as well. It was also one of our community managers in Italy who started an initiative called Zero Waste to tackle food waste by uniting 13 different NGOs who collect food This is either unsold food or food that has been donated, and 60 volunteers. And between December 2019 and May 2020, they have distributed to families in need around 2,730 kilos of fresh food. And the families, the number of families supported was of 270 last year and has now reached about 500 families during COVID time. And again, this is part of really the quality, the high quality of the impact. Another one is the innovation hub. Danny mentioned it. Innovation hubs are open to not only the residents of the smart cities, smart districts, and smart townships, but also everyone around. So this, you know, the hub regularly welcomes visits from schools and nearby residents from all backgrounds, including and especially the ones from the shantytowns. And this again reflects our inclusive approach and showcases our commitment to social inclusion, social innovation, and bottom-up human development. Again, another example of a very high-quality impact.

It's such a It's such a different business. I've got to say, I've never really come across anything like this before. I think Arup have done something similar in China, but I wouldn't say that it was the same. It's similar, but not the same. Danny, you've been with the business for 3 and a half years. What is the history of the Founders, and where, where has such an idea come from? Do you know?

Of course I do, and this is one of the most interesting parts of the story. And then, well, if you let me later, I'll give you some numbers because you have a very sophisticated audience. You've read a lot about us, and I don't want our, our story to be similar to Xanadu from the famous poet because the things are real. We are managing to do it. So I want also to give you some numbers to understand how and why we managed to do it. Let's go back to the origin of the company. In 2008, the real estate crisis coming from the banking crisis in the USA was starting to find its way to Europe. In that moment, the founder of the company, currently the CEO Global, Giovanni Savio, with her former associate, Susanna Marchionni, they've both been in real estate operations in Europe for more than 20 years, decided that Europe was not a place anymore in which they could have fun in doing what they were doing. So basically real estate operations. And they decided that a time was coming for Europe to be not very interesting for that anymore. So they decided to go where? Imagine Brazil, you know, Italians, culture is not that different, both loud people, nice weather, some contacts. They decided to go to Brazil.

Hmm.

And Gianni had this idea, traveling extensively in South America and a bit all over the world, that Israeli state passion could be served to have a very, very strong social impact. Because as a real estate guy, he understood everything about housing. But traveling in the rural areas of all these South American places and Asia, he understood that the affordable housing was a little bit of the underdog in the real estate business. Real estate operators are interested in very high internal rate of return in a short time for assets like, you know, like upper-class houses, hospitality, hotels. And he thought, why don't I try to write down some numbers and to make it work for the affordable housing, where of course I could expect— but then he knew that it was not like that. I'll tell you about it later. More difficulty in getting those internal rate of returns, but at the same time, the counterpart was a huge And he started to investigate how many people had a need for affordable homes. He started to investigate how countries were facing, both from the public and private point of view, the affordable housing challenge worldwide. And then while he was doing these kind of things, he thought that in order to create a company with an immediate differentiated position, he should have embraced innovation. And the smart city concept came obviously to use. When he went to Brazil, he sold all his assets in Europe and he managed to create a first, let's say, first investor's deal to raise the first $30 million. And with this money, He bought the land of our first project, 3.5 million square meters close to Fortaleza, and everything became real from that moment. So the company started to grow. Then we started to be more aggressive on the fundraising. We met an incredible guy who is a scientist and serial entrepreneur, Stefano Buono, who's now our chairman. Maybe we don't have time to go into details, but Stefano managed to public list it. He managed to public list a company at the NASDAQ some years ago that was sold to Novartis for $4 billion. So he established his family office. He met Gianni Savio, our CEO. They liked each other and we start, let's say, the second phase of rapidly scale up this company. And for the first project in Brazil, now we have 3 projects in development in the northeast of Brazil. We have 2,500 apartments that we're going to be launched before the end of the year in São Paulo. We are already acquiring new lands in Brazil. As I told you, we have a deal in India for the development of a district for 1,000 housing apartments in the city of Pune. We are going to explore and we are very close to enter the new market in Colombia. We have opportunities in Texas. Basically, the company now, just to give you some numbers, Will, has 309 investors. So basically we operate as if we were already a public company. We raised so far more than €100 million and we have a business plan. Just to give you some ideas of our ambitious plan to launch more than 50,000 apartments before 2023. So we aim big because we know that the volumes are big. What happened to Susanna and Gianni when things were going in the right way? They understood it, they nailed it. Because as I said, affordable housing can be considered wrongly a poor market, but the volumes are impressive. When I told you that in India there's a housing deficit of 35 million units, you understand that you can spend all your life in this sector and just scratched the surface of the demand that is present on the market. Going back to the numbers— no, first of all, I also want to tell you that the former associate of Gianni, Susanna Marchioni, is now the CEO of our operation in Brazil, while Gianni, as I told you, is the global CEO of the group based in London. Just to— I promised you some numbers. When you do the math and you use the criteria I told you before, with regards to the scale of our operation, you will immediately see and probably understand straight away how we can do what we do. It's not just real estate operation. We are creating better places for people. And we can do that because we can close a real estate operation with internal rate of return that go from 40% to 50%. If you consider these numbers and you compare them with social housing internal rate of return in Europe, you will understand that there's a huge difference. It can be even 10 times more interesting. And so, albeit we operate in developing and in emerging countries, the internal rate of returns let us be, you know, able to provide something different. It's important not to be greedy. It's important to understand that you can generate an enormous amount of impact, like beautifully, my colleague Carmen was telling you. And you can understand that while doing this, you can save the environment. In our infrastructure, when we design public lighting, of course you're going to use LED. But in emerging countries and developing countries, it's not happening sometimes straightforward, in a straightforward way. But you know that with LED, you can save up to more than 50% for sure of primary energy. When we, in our developments, we have lots of green areas, greenery, like they say in India, and we always water this greenery with IoT systems. And in our experience, you can save up to 60, 6-0%, of water with these cool systems that basically connect to the internet, understand when it's going to rain, understand how much the soil is dry or not. And you can deliver beautiful, improved environmental impact just using technology and of course good planning.

Well, okay, it's— you've brought in basically the whole picture, haven't you, as a business? And we talked at the beginning of the show about the locations of— and I'm actually going to include Andrew even though he hasn't really been— because you've got someone from London, someone from Italy, and someone from Switzerland, actually, and someone from Scotland on this show. And it shows that you are a global organization. Now, You've got some very strong ethics behind your business. How do you— and we can see very clearly how you are implementing that ethical strategy into your business plan. But is that also the case within the organization as well, with the way that you're running the operations of the business?

Well, Will, I'm happy to tell you that we are working on this a lot because we want full alignment on how we run the operation, how we treat our customers, and at the same time what we're trying to build as a company culture. Very recently we finished an internal exercise in which basically we created new values for the company. If you let me, I will just read for you the titles in order to understand the depth of the work that we are trying to do. First value is being a people-centric company. The second value is called commitment to care. The third is dedication to innovation. The fourth one is mindful leadership. The fifth one is impactful growth. The last one is beautiful. It's called authentic compassion. These are not normal values you find in corporations. It came out from a very long work that was led by Carmen here, which I thank a lot for this work. And in this very moment while we're talking, there are work groups in all the countries we have operations in. So Italy, UK, India, Brazil. And these work groups are made by employees who are trying to understand how to implement these values into our everyday operation. It goes from the life in the office up to the delivery of the most complicated project. It's not easy, but I always say that Planet Mars City is a gentle company. We try to change for the better. people's lives. So it's very important to have also a company culture that will define the way we work. Let me tell you a joke. PlanSmart Cities is for all of us a very ambitious dream. Numbers are working, investors are willing to invest. So far we've been raising, you know, all the money we needed. Let me tell you something. Probably all of us knows that there's no Plan B. Plan A is to make these things real because people in the world who need safe, quality housing deserve it. And the planet, which is funny because it's also in the name of our company, but now I'm talking Earth, deserves to be treated a lot better in terms of sustainable consumption. We are aiming big. And so let me tell you, nobody of us has a Plan B. For us, the Plan B, any kind of Plan B, would be distracting ourselves from Plan A, which is making this company a large global company that can offer a new way of life to people with less financial needs.

I feel very fortunate to have you guys on the show, to be honest with you. I think what you guys are doing is so— it epitomizes what we talk about all the time on the show. It really does show us all that actually you can really make a difference if you think altruistically and you think about serving the wider good, serving the wider population. And it It really feels like that's what you guys are all about. You're thinking about everything. You're trying to think about everything and bringing it all together. It's brilliant. I know that we could carry on talking for ages. I'm very conscious of the time and we do try and keep to 40 minutes. I think your website is actually really, really good. It's incredibly informative, planetsmartcity.com, and has a huge amount of information, and it even has your manifesto on. I love it, I love it. Is there anywhere else that we could find more information on you and what it is that you're doing? And I mean, you're looking for investments. Are you still looking for investments, or is there places that people could go to if they want to buy into your commitments?

Absolutely.

I just want to say something, Danny, before—

Please, Karin, please. Sorry.

If people are interested, anyone, even if you're not a resident, can download the Planet Smart City app for free. And you can actually choose any of our districts or townships or cities around the world. You can actually select it manually on the app, and then you are transported to the location. And you can have access to videos, footage, live footage. You can scroll around to see what the events are at the moment, what type of initiatives are going on. You can have a look at anything that is pertinent to that location. And then you can choose any other location there. It's unlimited. And you can have a look and really get acquainted with the fabric of what we're trying to build through the app and through our company and our communities.

Brilliant.

Brilliant.

Yeah, to answer Will's question, for everybody, just go to www.glennismorrissy.com and like Will nicely said, thank you, Will, for that, you will find a lot of information about us. If you want to get a little bit more into details, maybe for, you know, if you feel like you're an investor or just if you are just curious about what we're doing, if you scroll down, down, down and you go to the bottom of the page, you can find lots of links to our media center, investor center, where you can find lots of information about us from our last annual report up to all the magazines and articles in Brazil, in Italy, in the UK that have been published about us. We are strongly present on the social networks like Instagram, Facebook, so I'm sure there's no problem in finding us. And of course, if you have more information, I'm sure you can reach Will easily, and we'll provide Will with all the opportunities to be in touch with us anytime. Thank you, Will, for this great opportunity.

Absolutely.

It was awesome.

a beautiful channel on YouTube with lots of videos and also testimonials from people living in our smart cities. So that is also very interesting and very moving to watch.

Oh, great. Brilliant. Well, thank you both, Carmen and Danny, for this. Really interesting. And you've certainly opened up my eyes to a different, to a different type of business and organization.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you so much, Will.