E109 - Brendon Rowen from Cradle to Circular Design Consultancy

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Welcome back to the Green Element Podcast, where we feature business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable. I'm your host, Will Richardson, and I can't wait to meet our guest today and help you on your journey of sustainability. Brendan, thank you so much for joining the Green Element Podcast today. I am really excited about talking about your particular niche, and it's Cradle to Cradle. It's just— your company is Cradle to Cradle Design Consultancy, which kind of says what you are in a tin, as it were. Could you tell us a bit more about yourself, please?

Cradle to Circular Design Consultancy. The Cradle to Cradle methodology is It's based on really authentic and clearly communicated metrics in terms of developing sustainability strategies for any company. So it's based on the premise of really deep-down design in terms of using the right materials for the right reasons at the right times with the right people. So when we're looking at product design from a cradle-to-cradle perspective, we take into consideration the 5, what we like to call hallmarks, which are material health, material reutilization, renewable energy, water and soil stewardship, and social fairness. We take those elements, we then kind of distill them, particularly in in the material health segment of that, we look at materials down to the parts per million. So we really go down deep into the chemistry of what makes a product, what makes a healthy product. And once you define that, you can then say, okay, great, we're looking at these materials, how are we going to circulate them? And then the energy used to make these things, do they come from renewables? And are we, you know, what is our effluent like? Is it good enough for human consumption? And how are we treating the people that are working with those products or manufacturing those things? So when you're looking at the Cradle to Cradle system, it's a multi-attribute approach rather than just one siloed assessment tool.

Okay, so you brought in a few words and expressions that our listeners would be unfamiliar with. I wonder if you could give us an example of a piece of work that you've done.

So there's a really simple project actually that is being developed and the project's now been taken over to the US. It's a baby food macerator, which is made out of Cradle to Cradle certified polymers. Those polymers were designed by the Eastman Company, and they are Cradle to Cradle certified at the gold level. So that project is literally a tool that allows mothers to wean their babies by macerating food that they prepared as parents already in a macerator. And that will allow the youngster to have their own parent-made food rather than bought food. And we know how that bought food creates a lot of waste product in terms of the packaging and so forth that gets diverted to landfill, unfortunately. And once that tool has been utilized, because we know babies have a weaning space of about 18 months, 18 months to 3 years possibly. After 3 years, we take that product and then recirculate that on a platform which invites other mothers to then swap and change and exchange those tools. By the end of that cycle of use, it's probably that the tool itself is designed to be used 50,000 times. So there's about that amount of cycling use. We then take that product back, or the company takes the product back and repelletizes that into another product or the same product. So that's its true circular motivation.

And when you say repelletized, as in they put it down to a mold, as it were, and then made into something else?

Well, it makes it— gets made into another— it's called a Wonderween, basically. And that product is then— or the used material gets washed, cleaned, and repelletized and remolded into the Wonderween again. So you've got about a 98% retention on your value, on your materials value.

Wow. And would you end up with, say, this Wonderween is a kilogram, I'm just making up figures, 1,000 grams, then would you, when you repelletize it, would you get 1,000 grams or do you lose stuff?

Yes. Yeah, you would slightly degrade down to, as I said, about 98% of the full value of that product. So there's a 2% loss, which is actually not bad if you think about the reclamation of value, you know what I mean?

Yeah, that's brilliant.

That's absolutely brilliant. And that's quite a definitive difference. A lot of products that we, you know, any plastic product that we get out there, Most people just throw that away. So, if you're retaining the value of that thing, that creates a different way of looking at how to manage a business model because then your business model depends on people being responsible for the materials. As a customer, you want to know when you're buying something, you want to know that that company that you've bought this thing from has taken those things into consideration and given you an easy route to abide by those strategies.

And there's a lot of talk, and I know we all work in circles, so maybe it's a lot of talk on my LinkedIn, but there's a lot of talk about plastic. And I think probably it's in my circles, and I'm putting inverted commas up because I did a podcast with a guy about plastics. And there's a lot of people that are saying plastics aren't bad. It's what we do with plastics that's the bad thing and how we deal with plastics. Does that fit with— I mean, it sounds like it fits with what you're doing. And I've been told not to lead people into things, so I shouldn't have said that. It's okay.

You can say whatever you like. I think it's very clear in terms of that strategy and whoever that person was that mentioned that or stated that. is right on the money. You know, what I've— in fact, I have an article on LinkedIn that states plastic is not the problem. And the article goes to explain the fact that, you know, plastic is actually a great material. It's— if it's utilized properly. If we don't utilize it, then, and we throw it away, then it becomes a problem. So it's our custodianship of the material that is in question. It's not the material, it's just an inert bunch of chemistry from the periodic table. So, for us to be custodians of the things that we make is the trick. And that includes everything beyond plastic.

Yeah, it's the 98% of what you just said kind of epitomizes that, doesn't it? Because a Quite a lot of stuff just goes to landfill when it's plastic and it just shouldn't. It doesn't make sense if you can put something together and reuse it or use the energy from it. And I believe that's almost 100%. So you can almost convert it back to 100% of energy.

Yeah, I kind of agree with you and also disagree with you because ultimately, I don't think that plastic was ever meant to be a fuel per se.

I mean, yeah, I'm not saying— I'm not honestly not saying that you should be doing that. I'm just kind of reiterating that it's actually incredibly valuable and what on earth are we doing putting it into landfill?

Absolutely. Absolutely. So this is the trick with what now, you know, people are calling the circular economy or materials revolution is the fact that we need to retain the value of the things we make. So, you know, you're looking at buildings as materials banks, for example, utilizing Cradle to Cradle certified products in a construction project, for example, is very wise because you now have probably some of the highest quality materials in that structure, which then lend themselves to, obviously, now that they have RFIDs and QR codes and all these, these identifiers, um, and there's a full database of all of the materials. That database is now, right, you have a library of these really quality, high-quality materials. You know where everything is, you know how long it's been there for, um, and you can identify that. That data then becomes a tool for futures traders to, to trade up the value of that material down the line in 30 or 40 years' time. Because that building was built to deconstruct and it can then be deconstructed and reconstructed, um, you know, down the line.

Wow.

It becomes a value chain asset rather than, uh, rather than something that gets demolished after 50 years, as we've seen a lot of in the last 10 years. London's been kind of rebuilt and being redesigned, you know, and a lot of buildings which have been taken out of that mix in a way that, you know, why are we not reclaiming the bricks and the mortar and all of these things that people 50 years ago or 100 years ago built? You know, it's insane.

Yeah.

So, for us, it's very important to make sure that we have a value chain attached to everything we make, you know, and not to drive the cost up at all. It's actually to keep costs at a minimum and deliver value to the people that are purchasing these things.

I have never thought about it like that before with regards to buildings and putting the technology in to understand exactly what's in that building. It just opens up so much to what we waste. Immediately you realize how much we waste and how important what you do is for society. It's because it should be for everything, shouldn't it? We should be understanding absolutely everything we do and understand what we've got. for, you know, what we're using and how we're using it. So therefore, almost, right, you're mining that, you're taking that out of the ground. Where is that going? Where is it going to? And tracking that. And so we have complete control over what we're taking out of the ground.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we're working with a company here in the UK and over in Italy on their quarrying, you know, stone, the stonemasonry industry is— people are, you know, there's all this judgment going around, well, you guys shouldn't be taking rocks and stones out of it. But that's what we build with, you know. So the responsible way of approaching that is to do proper environmental impact assessments that take on all of those metrics rather than just the carbon or just the water. or just the energy. It's about taking all of those metrics and replenishing land and the soil and the environment once you're finished with that space. There's a company in Italy, a quarry company, that regenerates and makes beautiful dams and public spaces after that quarry's been utilized. So, You know, there's a social fairness aspect of, you know, these towns and these villages that are built around the quarrying industry that, you know, they've, they've been there for hundreds of years. And now the, the quarry companies themselves are giving back to that, that community and saying, well, you know, now that we've built all these houses and pavings and so forth around the world, to be honest, um, here's a beautiful natural environment Japanese garden to go and walk around in. So, it's also about that forethought of what is next here. And in Cradle to Cradle, we definitely define that what is next question every step of the way. It's like, right, I'm going to go and buy this thing. What's next with the packaging? I'm going to buy my broccoli. It's packed in some plastic. Are we going to unwrap that and just chuck it in the bin? Or are we going to go back to the store and say, I don't want to have plastic around my vegetables? Or this plastic conversation is about literally about who takes responsibility for what. And that's an interesting bend, if you wish. Yeah.

I mean, so if you were to think about your ideal listener on our podcast, to give them advice, who would that listener be and what would that advice be?

Well, the world is full of wonderful people, so I couldn't pick one particular person out. But I guess it would be all manufacturers, people who are making things, and the advice or the the request, I suppose, would be to dig deep into what is available in the toolbox that you're using, and does that define your sustainability strategy as a company? You know, the toolbox that we offer as the Cradle to Cradle toolbox has some really new and interesting ways of looking at systemic design and product design. I think it's valuable to investigate that. So my request or my question there would be, have you thought everything through? Can you think that little extra step further? Like, what is next? Try something new. That's probably the thing I'd walk away with. Yeah.

Yeah. absolutely thinking about the whole journey of that material, isn't it?

Absolutely.

Thinking about where— and we don't even come close to it. It's really sad if you actually think about where we are and what we're doing. It's actually really sad. I mean, we jumped up and down for joy 5 years ago when we had that scheme that made anyone selling electrical items. They had to bring them back to the— and I think what was even more sad about that was those shops and retail centers told everyone how good they were because they were allowing people to bring back the electrical items, even though it was legislation and they'd been told to do it. But because they knew that most people didn't know they had to do it, they were telling people how good they were.

Yeah, I think I say, you know, and this might, this might, um, be slightly contrary to the way many people, many people think, but, um, I think the celebration of mediocrity in that situation is appalling. You know, we need to celebrate championing things. You know, the companies themselves should take responsibility for those materials. You know, it's not my responsibility as a consumer to be custodians of that. I want to eat the broccoli. I don't want the plastic bag. I want to use the flour that's in the bag. I don't need to have the bag. So this packaging question is a really interesting place for innovation, I think. And that's really where Cradle to Cradle comes into its own, is we look at the innovation opportunities and then deliver on that sustainably or authentically sustainably, if you wish. And I think, yes, that example of people taking their electricity, uh, you know, electrical units back to the shops where they bought them from if they were damaged or whatever the case may be, it doesn't, it doesn't do anything. It just makes more work for other people, you know. And I, you know, I like to cite the, the project that Philips was engaged with or is engaged with in Schiphol Airport, they lease light. They own the actual components because they're responsible for that. So if I go to them as a customer like Schiphol Airport, I lease the lumen. We'll lease X amount of lumen over a period of 15 years, for example. The lease model works in many situations. Some situations it doesn't. But yes, you're right. We need to absolutely think out of the box and challenge the mediocrity. You know, we need to do that.

We have a university that went down the Philips route. It is a fascinating way of doing things, isn't it? To have someone else that's in charge of all your lighting and managing it. But it works. It works actually very well for them. And I would definitely, to anyone listening, look at that model and look at the way that that model sits within your organization, because if it's a bigger organization, it works really well.

Absolutely. And you've got carpeting as a lease model, carpet tiles with Shaw and Deso and Tarkett, particularly Shaw Contract. They will contract you a carpet this year, you'll have a great design, and 2, 3 years down the line, you can replace that as part of your, your lease model. So, you know, in perpetuity, you have a soft walk on a floor. You don't need the materials, if that makes sense. It's a, it's a new way of aligning the way that we, we value things, you know.

Yeah.

Um, I value a soft walk on the floor and nice colors to walk on. I don't need the glue and the hessian and the sisal and the wool and all those things that go into making. I don't need that. You know what I mean? It's that value assessment that we need to look at, I think.

Yeah. And I think people are asking more and more questions, aren't they? We had a podcast guest on about a year ago now, possibly longer, Tara Button from Buy Me Once or Buy It Once. I mean, do you know?

Well, we've met on LinkedIn. We've had a couple of conversations and emails. Yes, I met her.

And it's people like her and organizations like that that are questioning what we're using and how we're using it. And it's just great that those conversations are being had. But how do we do it more? Because let's be frank, we've been having these conversations for quite a few years now. Wonderful conversations, but they are conversations.

Yeah, exactly. And this is it, you know. I think, like you said, we've had the conversations. I think the point to implement what we're talking about is long gone. We just need to keep doing that. And yes, of course, conversations are important and it's valuable to make introductions to new things and new ideas. But ultimately, we need to apply the knowledge and the expertise from those conversations and deliver the value to both ecologically and environmentally and economically. Ultimately, those metrics are going to be the drivers that make the difference. If I can prove to you that this Wonderween tool, for example, this baby feeding tool, could, A, save lives in Africa because the mortality rate of young disenfranchised folk in Africa is quite high. The mortality rate is quite high because of choking. Now, if you take that Wonderween and you deliver that into that environment, those children, you're going to have a lot more surviving, right? You really get that food down to its mushy sort of consistency. But also in that light, that will eliminate 1.6 billion plastic sachets from the food sachets, baby food sachets that go to landfill every year. So, you know, you've got to look at the mitigating factors of investing in that kind of strategy. It may cost a little bit more upfront, but I always ask, well, what's the cost of not doing it?

Yeah. And would a company, for example, like Wonderween, look at the mitigation of products when it looks at their lifecycle?

Sorry, repeat that again.

Would a company, and what I'm trying to do is put myself in a listener's feet and just thinking, well, I've got a product, I understand now what to do and I understand how to do it, but you've just brought in another thing of actually you're mitigating the use of sachets, food sachets. So is that a normal best practice to bring that mitigation into that Cradle to Cradle? Because I guess it emphasizes the argument for doing it in the first place.

Yeah, I mean, that was, I think, one of the most critical things was, A, to make it easy for moms and dads, and B, to stop pollution. You know, the company director addressed a lot of different issues, but those are the 2 main issues that we, we discovered were a good motivator to, to create the business. And it's a startup business. It's, you know, it's, it's still getting to that point of, of mass production and, and mass market. But it's— yeah, the reality is that those kinds of things are what the Cradle to Cradle methodology uncover, you know, because of the, the deep level of assessment that these kinds of companies go into for their business model. It's not only just for the material health or for the energy use or their social fairness. It's the whole business model. So it is a multi-attribute approach.

And as you know, we do a lot of carbon footprinting at Green Element. Is carbon footprinting something that's brought into the Cradle to Cradle methodology?

It is in many respects. That's obviously just one aspect of it, right? So there's embedded carbon, there's sequestration, there's all of those discussions around what happens with carbon. And, you know, contrary to currently what's being this net zero carbon government strategy, I'm not a fan. You know, this net carbon needs to be— you need to have carbon in the ground. That's what you need to do. That's where it needs to go. It doesn't need to be in the air. It doesn't need to be in anything. It needs to be in the ground. If it's going to be in a jersey or in a car or in a phone or in something, make sure that it's able to get back to the earth. That's the most important thing. The net zero concept to me is, is a Yeah, it doesn't— I understand the pseudo-logic about it, but it's in reality, if you're looking at the environment and how to address carbon as an element on the periodic table, I would say, get it back in the ground. We need some of it in the sky and we need some of it in the ground. That's reality.

It is bonkers. terminology and the wording that's now currently being used around carbon. And yeah, we talk about it as a team. It doesn't make sense at all. It's just bonkers. And it's not helped by academics either.

Yeah, sorry to speak over you there, Will, but the reality is I'm carbon. There's a percentage of me that's carbon. You're carbon. The wall I'm sitting behind is— there's carbon. It's everywhere. And if we, if we're net zero, if that's our goal, then we all just need to die, you know, because that's it. It's— we need to go create humus. It's like, well, that's our goal. Okay, brilliant. Let's do that. I know I'm being slightly facetious and semantic, but that's the reality. You know, I think we've got to really Look at the wording and lifecycle analysis. Everybody uses lifecycle analysis, but we like to use use cycle analysis as an identifier because, you know, this water bottle is not living. It has a use cycle, but it does not live.

Yeah.

So, you know, and it's not about wanting to correct anybody or anything like that, or being, as you say, facetious. It's just about getting the perspective. Of what is the right way to look at this thing, you know, um, and use the right terminology. And, and this is the other side of the Cradle to Cradle methodology is that there is language in there that is different to the mainstream. Um, and that's why I'm saying we've got to challenge that mediocrity and challenge the, uh, the norm, as it were. Um, and, and now that we've got almost 8,000 Cradle to Cradle certified products out there in the world People are starting to wake up and realize that actually there is something to this crazy stuff.

I'm realizing that we should definitely change some of the wording on our website now. And so I will talk to the team about that after this conversation because we fall into the LCA category.

Yeah, but also look at it in terms of, you know, I really We joke about it, and it is actually quite funny because the stuff we assess is not living. So why would we create that as an LCA?

Yeah, no, it makes complete sense. It makes complete sense. Yeah, it's a bit of a no-brainer really, if you think about it. And as an organization, I am sure you practice what you preach with regards to sustainability and the environment. I mean, is there any advice that you can offer as an organization?

Yeah, I think for all intents and purposes, you know, we're a smallish organization. Most of us are on bicycles and/or motorbikes. I've yet to order and purchase my Tesla, but as a practical day-to-day application of what we, I say, develop as a consultancy, I think the key element for us is to be authentic to our business model. So, you know, the authenticity of the littlest things, you know, and this, but all the things that we know start at home, you know. So it is about separating your waste and going that extra mile down to the bottle bins and doing those little things that we seem to be, you know, sort of mundane. But when we challenge those things within ourselves, it's easier to do that. with another company or with an organization or with another person because you've done it yourself, you know. So, in all of my presentations, the last slide is, make it your own. So, however you feel is your— your conscience knows what's, you know, what's right in terms of your behavior, you know. And my company slogan is, design with a conscience, because that ultimately is— we know what's right and wrong. We know that we need to design these things better. We need, we need all of these elements to come together, and that aligns with our conscience ultimately, you know. Um, so I guess the, the answer to your question is the, the advice would be to, to align with your company conscience, and if that doesn't align with your integrity Change that metric, change the vision, if you wish, of the company.

Okay, that's interesting. Thank you. It's been fascinating talking to you and learning more. And I think it's a mind shift, isn't it? It's a mindset and it's thinking about what we buy. It's thinking about how we design. And it's thinking about, actually, that reminds me of a conversation I had earlier on about a brand design agency that are looking to bring a sustainability consultant in-house. It actually fits in with exactly what we're talking about today, doesn't it? And bringing, if they're rebranding to bring that whole lifecycle, not lifecycle.

I get what you mean.

Anyway, yeah, but bringing it, bringing it, bringing that methodology into everything that we do and how we do it.

I think it's a very important element for new brands and even old brands kind of coming up, you know, realigning their comms strategy in terms of the authenticity, you know, how eco are they, how sustainable are they, and measuring up to that. And if they're You know, if a bad agency has a client that isn't aligning with certain values, people like us can come in and say, hey guys, we've got some options here that you could look at. You know, how about this kind of packaging or that kind of logistics plan? Or, you know, there's, there's ways that you can start aligning with a really good messaging. You know, I mean, we've all— I've worked in advertising half my life and You know, it's all about selling the stuff, but is the stuff sellable? And that's the reality. When now youngsters are looking at products, the first thing that they look at is, okay, how eco-friendly is it? They want to identify with those values. So if, you know, if the brand agency is not delivering that to the client and the client's not delivering That to the brand agency, that communication is an inauthentic path of their sustainable messaging. So it makes sense to align with that really, really well, you know.

Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you.

You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Today we had Brendan on. He's brilliant. He has his own SoundCloud account and is a part-time DJ and DJ'd a lot when he was in his younger years. He has had a checkered history, and I absolutely loved talking to him. I mean, almost more importantly, wasn't it great listening all about— not lifecycle analysis. What was it? You tell me. Anyway, on that note, what would be good is if you've got any feedback for us, could you possibly give us a shout at podcast@greenelement.co.uk and let us know what you think? Give us a score on iTunes or any of the podcast platforms that you listen to. Go on, reach out to us. It'd be really good to hear from you. Because we're doing this podcast for you. So, hopefully speak to you soon. Take care. Bye.