E118 - Rochelle Turner from MaCher

Quick word from our sponsor, 51tocarbonzero.com. If you're a CFO or board member staring down CSRD or Scope 3 and thinking, where do we even start? We at Sustainability Solved would point you to 51tocarbonzero.com. They turn complex, fragmented emissions data into something simple and give boards clear, audit-ready visibility on exactly where the reduction opportunities are. It's not another reporting tool that adds work. It's built so the data holds up when your auditor asks the hard questions. If that's a conversation worth having, get in touch with 51tocarbonzero.com, or just drop me a message and I'll point you in the right direction. Right, back to the episode.

Welcome back to the Green Element Podcast, where we feature business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable. I'm your host, Will Richardson, and I can't wait to meet our guest today and help you on your journey of sustainability. Welcome to the Green Element Podcast, Rochelle. Thank you so much for joining us today. You are Rochelle Turner. You are Head of Research and Insights for Masha. Please, could you tell us a bit more about yourself and Masha?

Sure. Thanks, Will. Thanks for having me here. So, I am a researcher by background, researching consumers and consumer behavior. So, I've worked for companies that make me stand on street corners and ask people questions, all the way up to looking at reports and lots and lots of data. and trying to make sense of that data throughout the years. So I have, for my sins, yeah, interviewed people and called them up or say stood in the rain and asked people, please, please, please stop and answer my questions. So it's a long learning curve for trying to understand how people get the answers that they need and just the sort of dogged determination that researchers need to be able to get information from consumers. It's a bit easier nowadays that you can sort of look at what internet trends are or what spending trends are. But back in the day, that information was a little bit more difficult to come from. So, Ma Chère, where I work now, is a sustainable design firm. We make promotional products for companies. So, if a company is looking to give a gift to their clients, we can make that gift. If a company is looking to give a gift to its staff, staff t-shirts or staff Christmas presents, we can make those gifts as well. And so, we work with all sorts of companies that see the value in building customer loyalty through a gifting program. And that might be travel brands, it might be beauty brands or alcohol and spirits, you know, educational institutions as well when they're trying to attract students to come or retailers and other sectors. And we are a company that does the whole process. We design something, we manufacture it, we distribute all of those gifts to the companies that have asked for those to be made. We also, I think more and more these days, follow up with the research and that's sort of where I come in to look at what is the ROI that gets delivered from doing these kinds of gifts in the first place. So all companies we recognize have limited marketing budgets, so why spend it on a gift rather than spending on promotions or some other activity and discounts? And so we look at the ROI and we also look at a lot of academic research to show why one might want to give a certain type of gift over another type of gift, for example. And again, that's sort of where my role comes in. And we look at that academic literature around happiness or around the kinds of GWP, gifts with purchase, and how actually it's really quite interesting that returns are far lower when a gift is given because of the connection, the psychological connection that's made between products and gifts. And so companies can actually save a lot of money on their returns if they're giving a gift with purchase. And so these are the kinds of things that we're always testing and always talking to our clients about.

That's really interesting. And you're actually, I don't think I mentioned it, you're a certified B Corp and therefore sustainability will also run quite heavily through your, hence why we're talking today, through your whole business and ethos. And how is that taken into consideration through those gifts?

Well, sustainability is absolutely fundamental to what we do. So it comes in at absolutely every stage. So quite often, and perhaps unusually for a company that makes promotional products, we will often say to the people that we're speaking to, our clients or people that are looking to be clients, actually what you're suggesting you shouldn't do. Save your money, do something else. Because there's no point in making something that is just going to be wasted. We really pride ourselves and make sure that what we are trying to do has a reusable element as well as a useful element to it. And so if someone is saying, right, we have a dollar, we have $2 to spend on this product, If you think about all of the elements that make up making a product, we're designing a product, getting it made, getting it shipped, and getting it distributed. What is the value of that product at each of those different stages? And we might actually say, and do very often say, again, save your money. It's not worth doing that kind of thing. We have to do something that's better and more sustainable in the long run. We also use— Yeah. Sustainable materials. So a lot of the products we use are, for example, sustainable water bottles or recycled fabrics, or a lot of material that comes from waste itself. This is some really interesting products that you can get from recycled pineapples, for example, or the pineapple skins that are turned into fabrics. Or what's really interesting is the windscreens. So windscreens in cars, because to stop them from freezing, they have an element of plastic in between the different layers of the windscreen glass. And so when those windscreens are taken to the junkyards, you can remove that plastic and then we can make a product from it, which actually looks almost like a leather. And so again, you're turning something that was waste into product. I love that. And then looking throughout other elements of our supply chain so that when we're sending things, we're not sending them in plastic bags and we're Shipping things in the most sustainable way and just looking at all of those elements to make sure that we are doing the right thing for the environment and also for our supply partners and the people that are working in the companies or the factories that we're getting the products from. And also that I say we're making a product that isn't just going to go to waste and it's not having any value in the first place.

Brilliant. That's really good. It's really good. And I think I love the ingenuity around using different products and the fact that you say no to people. I think that's actually really important, isn't it? Because some could look at you, and I'm being completely frank, and go, gifts from businesses to people, we've all seen those gifts and we've all been given pens or stuff that you just go, why? And then particularly at the conferences, and personally, I just say no. But I feel I have to explain it and go, I'm really sorry. It's not that I don't want you as a company, but I really just don't want to come away with 15 different pens. I just don't need them.

Well, we're trying to solve problems, so we're not just trying to give a gift, we're trying to solve a problem. So we, for example, had a cruise line client. And the cruise line client was giving away water bottles to its customers in all of its staterooms. And so we teamed up with a water dispenser provider and made a stainless steel water bottle. And we know that the energy it takes to make stainless steel is still quite significant, but actually looked at how many times it would need to be used in the way it was manufactured in order for it to be better than a plastic water bottle. Anyway, so what we ended up doing was making these stainless steel water bottles and it managed to take out 56 million plastic water bottles out of circulation for this cruise line client over a 2-year period. Now, I think that is quite a significant development and it's something that we're trying to do again, solving a problem. We had another client that you know, a very, very high-end safari company. And the high-end safari company used to take people from the airport, the main airport it would arrive in, to the lodge in the safari area. And because of people's luggage, it would have to travel twice because the planes were only big enough to hold the people and not the luggage at the same time. And so, it would have to make these 2 journeys. And so, we designed a really beautiful bag that meant that once the people were in the plane, these bags could also fit in the plane. And people wanted to use these bags because they were beautifully designed. And so then that meant that so much extra fuel was saved by not having to fly the plane twice. You could just fly it once. So these like quite simple problems that actually sometimes do have a design and a gift solution to them, which actually means that people then will go on and reuse either that water bottle or that bag. And there is a far longer chain to what we're trying to do.

That's brilliant. That's really good. That's cool, isn't it? Could you tell us a bit about how you engage your staff, suppliers, and customers with your mission and purpose?

Sure. So the staff one is really interesting actually, because we have a president and the directors of the company who are absolutely 100% engaged in sustainability, in the B Corp movement, in progress as well, I think, in the B Corp movement. And what we found quite interestingly a couple of years ago was that the staff probably weren't as engaged in this mission. They didn't, about 2, 3 years ago, they didn't see it as something that actually brought value to the business. And so we worked with them and we had lots of conversations about why this actually wasn't cutting through and why they weren't necessarily seeing the link between one and the other. And our president and the sustainability manager came up with the idea of everybody having an individual sustainability KPI. So in addition to all of the other KPIs that they're doing, they had one that was specific for sustainability. And so one of my colleagues, for example, started an office composting program. And they're based in LA and composting in LA is not something that is as common as it is. You don't get roadside or house side collection of composting like you do here in the UK. So they started an office composting program and another of my colleagues started looking at the use of plastic in wrapping all of the individual gifts that get sent from the factories to the clients and how we could first of all start measuring and monitoring that, but then look at alternative ways of sending those products so that we don't have as much plastic in use in circulation in terms of the shipping and looking at different ways of shipping that. So by having these sustainability KPIs, we are able then to engage our staff better. And I think just over the last couple of years, they've really started engaging in this and see more about how the value proposition can be strengthened by our focus on sustainability. And I think again, over the last few years, businesses have seen a real need for, you know, to be more sustainable. You know, we've seen a lot of discussion about waste. We've seen a lot of discussion about plastics in the ocean and companies are getting on board with that. And so they are now far more open, I think, to the idea that we are making things that would've come from waste or would just be ended up in landfill. And they like that idea and they're now looking at how they can tell that story. So here is a gift for your customers, and here is a gift that not only has it been made through an ethical and well-sourced supply chain, it is also it has also been made with waste and actually it sort of tells their story as well that they're on that journey for sustainability.

Okay. And would you say it was a big part of your communications with your suppliers and customers as well, that sustainability journey?

It absolutely is. I mean, it's not something that Always gets, I mean, it's always there. It's always there in the background. And some customers, it's absolutely the first thing that they want to talk about. And others, we have to sort of help steer them towards that journey. And so, like I mentioned at the beginning, you know, some might come to us immediately and say, right, we have this amount of budget to spend. What can you make for that? And we turn it around, like, why are you making this? That's always like the first thing. Why are you doing this?

Yeah.

Is it that you're trying to create loyalty? Is it because you've got a problem, you've got too many products that are being returned? Is it because you've, say, got this problem with plastics in your supply chain that you're trying to get rid of? What is that reason? And by starting with that why, it helps then open up a conversation about what are the things that they can do and how we can help work with them to perhaps make something that is less energy intensive or less wasteful and more useful for the long run.

Okay. And when it comes to running an ethical and sustainable business, what would you say has been your biggest struggle so far? And can you tell us a bit about how you've overcome it?

I think it's always a struggle to find the right suppliers. So we're You know, we're ultimately a manufacturing firm. So we do all of our design and logistics in our LA office. But we have a lot of overseas factories that we use, and a lot of them are, you know, fully CEDEX certified to the highest level that they can be. But then there are others that are only on that journey. And so how do you work with those suppliers in other countries when you are only one small part of their business. So these suppliers are not, and these factories are not just working for us. You know, we don't own them. We don't control them. So we can only work to the ones that we can get to and we can, you know, encourage them that we want to work with them. But if we are only a small player in that, we need to galvanize the others that are working in that same factory and show the factory owners why it is beneficial for them to have that CEDAW certification or sign the UN human rights declarations or have audited and third-party audited systems so that we can make sure that we are working with the best people and that everything that we do can be 100% bona fide and that we can be really proud and pleased to say that those are our suppliers. I mean, we are, but But when you're trying to start with a new product or start with a new material, sometimes you have to go out and find these new factories that might not actually adhere to the standards that you would like to do.

That makes sense. That makes complete sense. And so focusing more in on Masher as a business and as an organization, what kind of steps have you taken as an organization to be more sustainable yourself?

So we've done a lot in terms of our own operations. Say everybody has individual sustainability KPIs. We are in the process of putting solar on our roofs. We've just signed a commitment to the Science-Based Targets Initiative. And so we are going to now, and actually just had those approved actually. So we're— Brilliant. Oh, congratulations.

Well done. That's really, really cool.

Yeah, we're going to be announcing that just this week because, yeah, it's really cool to have them approved. And so, you know, we are doing a lot to make sure that we are doing the right thing, that we're making sure our climate goals are aligned with the UN and the Paris Agreement. Our factories are CEDEx certified. We have 4 out of our 10 biggest factories are Level 4 CEDEX certified, and we're hoping to increase that by 2 Level 4s over the next 2 years. And the rest are Level 2 CEDEX certified. 92.5% of our factories that we use have third-party audits and certifications for environmental or social behaviors, and that's going to go up to 100%. So there's, you know, there are all these different systems that we put into place to make sure that we're filling that on a sustainability, on a, from an environmental perspective, but also from a staffing and employment perspective, and also working in our communities and do a lot in our local community, but also reaching out to make sure that some of the products that we make. You know, might be going to factories that are where people who are in socially deprived areas might need some help. You know, there's a really interesting factory that we're in good conversations with in Brazil, which uses ex-offenders. And there are lots of cooperatives that we're using to make, you know, really niche products. that where companies want to spend a little bit more money, that money would then go into the communities and help either women or youth or people, say, with different social issues that help to address the causes of deep poverty or lack of skills in certain places.

It's one of the great things about interviewing different companies, like yourselves is just how intuitive, not intuitive, how clever people and organizations are and the stories that they tell about what it is they're doing. And it's that positive impact that organizations like you have on the rest of the world. And it just shows that we really are starting to work as a kind of— you can't, as a listener, can't see me making the world in my arms, but it is though, isn't it? We are becoming a world.

I think we're trying to. I mean, I think it's also about recognizing your role in the business that you play. So we know that the corporate gifting and promotional products world is a dirty world. We know that. And we are trying as we can to do our bit to help clean it up. And there are other promotional product companies that are also moving in the direction that we are. And hopefully over time, all companies, if they say they care about the environment, will look to companies like ours because we can help with that risk that they've got. What's the point of a company making a product if that company is also saying how environmentally sustainable it is and how important the green movement is to their business, if they're giving away things that actually don't meet certified standards or if they don't meet the chemicals, the Prop 65 chemical testing that's required, or it's just going to go to waste, it lessens the impact, I think, of their companies. And so yeah, we recognize that we have a a small role to play in trying to say clean up our industry. But also, we are a business like many, many millions and billions of other businesses around the world. And we have to adhere to the right guidelines on climate, on biodiversity, on treating workers fairly, on being good to our community and supporting everything it is about being, it's sort of having that license to operate in the world.

No, and that's just so important. Is there any advice or learning that you'd like to share with everyone listening to this podcast on some of the aspects of the organization that we've talked about today?

I think this is a journey and it doesn't, It doesn't happen in one day. The small steps are really good steps. And I think one of the things that's really interesting is that, and certainly in places I've worked before, that fear of the unknown can be paralyzing. And so, you know, you have to do things like you have to cut back on your emissions. But if you don't know how to do that, there are a lot of people out there that might not do anything. And it's the same with at home, right? You know that you have to cut back on your food waste, but If you don't know how to cook or you don't know how to manage the food that you've got in the fridge, how are you going to cut back on food waste if you don't know how to do those things? But sometimes you just have to make that first step. You just have to make that commitment. So on the Science Based Targets initiative, for example, we knew it was the right thing to do. We knew that we had to commit to the 1.5 degree because the world needs to get rid of its carbon and the world needs to start to manage climate change because it's the number of storms that are coming and the amount of harm that climate change is doing to our world is something that we all have a responsibility to act upon. So we knew that we had to do it. Did we know how exactly we were going to get there? Absolutely not. But we decided, okay, let's just make that jump and we will then find out the way to do it. And so we've made that commitment to being net zero, but we don't have all the answers to get there. I think at the same time, there's probably about something around being humble and accepting your small role in the world and rather than trying to sort of overclaim and being willing to therefore to reach out to others for support and advice. And there's a lot of good research and information and willing, I think, for people to help companies and to help individuals take this step towards greater sustainability.

I'm really glad that you— what I wanted to kind of finish on was the Science Based Targets, and I'm really glad that you brought it up again because to anyone listening, the Science Based Targets initiative is such an important initiative. And that's not to say that none of the other stuff that you've talked about is important, but I think, and this is going towards a global common goal, And it is making sure that all your emissions are in line with that 1.5-degree increase. And I think it is incredibly scary for particularly organizations like you who have quite large Scope 3 emissions, and you will not know how you're going to be reducing those emissions. But what is amazing is that you have put your head above the pulpit, head up and said, look, we're going to be getting our science-based targets and we're going to be achieving them. And this is openly telling everyone what it is that you're going to be doing and then working towards it. And I think it is so important and it's such a great step and it's brilliant that you've had those verified. You can see that I'm a firm advocate of science-based targets. I think we are at Green Element as well.

I think it's been really helpful that the Science-Based Targets Initiative has an iteration for SMEs, for small-medium-sized enterprises, because this stuff is difficult and there are people in large companies that have scientists with PhDs who are on their staff who are calculating the numbers for them. And, you know, most small businesses just do not have the ability or the resources or the capacity to do that or to hire someone with that kind of level of expertise. And so, you know, they have recognized this, the SBTI initiative has recognized this. And, you know, we have gone along with that, the SME version. And it's been really helpful because it does mean it's much more inclusive. We are on that journey now. we do have that help and support to try and help get to where we say that we're going to be. There's a lot of measurement. We have to prove it. We have to make these cuts and we will make these cuts, but it sort of helps and almost holds our hand along the way now because we've gone with the SME version.

Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for today. Is there a way that we can connect with you and learn more? We'll obviously be putting all of the links and everything on Yeah.

So we're at mashare.com. And Mashare is a funny name. It was started by a man called Martin and a woman called Cheryl. So Ma is Martin and Share is Cheryl. I was wondering why there was a capital C. And so it's not a name that means much, but that's where it is and that's where we are. So yeah, mashare.com. And please contact us. We're really happy to talk to you. happy and open to talk to anybody who's interested.

Rachelle, thank you so much for being on today. Thank you.

Thanks, Will.