E127 - Livvy Drake from Sustainable Sidekicks

Welcome back to the Green Element Podcast, where we feature business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable. I'm your host, Will Richardson, and I can't wait to meet our guest today and help you on your journey of sustainability. Thank you for joining the Green Element Podcast, and today we have Livvy Drake on. And Livvy is a massively keen environmentalist, it's fair to say. You went overland to Spain and you did document that. So if you want to go back and have a look at your travels, I think you can actually read about them, can't you? And you went to— did you?

Not sure.

Otherwise, how do I know about them? I can't remember now.

Yeah, good question. I'm not sure whether I ever wrote about it. It's probably on my to-do list, my blog list that I've never written. I've probably told you about it.

Oh man, now I feel like I've been stalking you. That's horrendous, isn't it? Anyway, I'm really excited to have you on today. Could you tell us a bit about who you are?

And, um, yeah, um, so yeah, hi, my name's Libby Drake of the Sustainable Sidekicks. Um, I am a massive environmentalist, um, and I've done lots of things to see how I could reduce my carbon environmental footprint, um, to really understand if the world and individuals and organizations have to make massive changes, what it would be like. So I went vegan, gave up a car, gave up flying. What else did I do? I gave up a lot of things all at once and really looked at kind of what that felt like. And that's why I got really interested in behavior change. So alongside doing sustainability advice for organizations, I also very much focus on behavior change and interweaving that into how we can actually have systemic change for the environment.

Brilliant. Brilliant. It'd be great to talk to you more about behavior change because I know you do a series of webinars and courses on the subject. So it'd be great to get your insight on that. So what would you say your business superpower is?

So I think, so sort of our strapline is, or my sort of the way I look at it is, I'm a sustainable sidekick to businesses, campaigners, and green champions, helping them to deliver environmental behavior change. And I would say what I want to do is support people for them to make the changes. I don't want to be the person who does all the changing when I work with an organization. I want to empower people. So it's about empowering people. And I feel like the secret sauce for us is, for me, is behavior change because it's the thing that really will create bigger changes. Because one of the issues I have with the environmental movement is there's too many people talking from their own pace of values and what inspires them to make changes, which isn't what inspires a lot of other people. Using behaviour change theory, you can really understand what makes other people tick and use that as a way to drive change and to communicate with them better.

That makes a lot of sense. And I guess by people doing things themselves, they're more likely to continue that change, aren't they?

Yeah. And I think it's really important that people feel empowered to make changes, um, and feel that environmental issues are something they can take action on, especially within their organization. Um, I read the, um, I think it's called, it's called the Edelman's, um, uh, what's it called, the Edelman's Trust, um, Barometer from 2020, and it said that 73% of employees expect to be making changes within society, and, um, and they expect to be making changes within their— be part of the planning for change. So, within an organisation, people don't just want to be doing their job and going home again, they actually want to be a changemaker. And this was worldwide research, and the UK was included in that.

73% is an awful lot, isn't it?

Yeah.

That's amazing.

Yeah, so that's where organizations really have to step up now and empower people to make those changes, set up green teams, and also be sort of inspired to allow people to sort of take that lead. Because, you know, it's frustrating if you— people, you know, are frustrated that they see all the issues that are going on in the world, climate change, plastics, And then they go to work and feel that their organization is part of the problem.

Yeah, that makes sense. That's brilliant. And could you tell us about how you engage people on your mission and purpose?

So, what I— how I engage people is certainly, so, kind of using a lot of behavior change principles and really taking people back a step to understand what makes people tick. to how to understand people because it's very easy to think all we have to do is educate people. That's like the classic of environmentalists and people who are passionate. We just need education. But actually, there's lots of reasons that people do these behaviors that we think are unsustainable. And so we need to understand those. So it's understanding what are people's habits and how prominent habits are in our day-to-day lives, and the fact that our brains actually try to avoid thinking as much as possible, because thinking uses energy, and our brain wants to minimize the amount of energy that it's using. So we do lots of things just as a habit without thinking about it. So lots of things like jumping in the car or eating particular meals are because of habit, not because conscious choices. So, if we want to inspire change, we need to understand where are those habits coming from, where's the opportunity to engage with them, and in the workplace, that's— I mean, the workplace doesn't exist at the moment, but within organizations, there's lots of things that people do because of habits. They also do lots of things because of the social norms, and many people will feel like, this is what we do in our company, so they go go along with that even if maybe they don't agree with it. So how do you change what's the current social norm, what the majority of people are doing, so people feel that they can actually make change? And so one of the ways to do this is actually using people at the top, so CEOs. There's something called authority bias, so people look for people in power to actually take action. And again, from that report, I think they said 74% of respondents expected CEOs to be speaking out about climate change. So there's that top-down, you know, we always talk about this in sustainability, that top-down, bottom-up approach, but it really does make sense. So you change the social norms, which is what everyone's doing, and you get the people at the top making that change because people expect, look for authority to inform their behavior. So those are the key behavior change principles I would always look at when I start talking to people about how they're going to make changes and how they understand what people are actually doing and why they're doing it.

It's really interesting, that, isn't it? That not thinking and just habit. You don't really think about it like that because you see a lot of businesses, say printing, for example, printing a document to read it. And I've always wondered why. people do it, and that would fall into what you're talking about, wouldn't it?

Massively. It's just a habit. And so I've been working with an organization who were trying to— their printing was off the scale, and what they realized was people were just automatically pressing print, and they had this huge stack of paper that no one was actually reading, and it was just a habit. So what they did was people had to there was a block put in the place, so you actually had to go to the printer and press OK to get the printed materials. And we don't have any evidence of what the impact was because of COVID No one goes to the office anymore. But that was a massive habit breaker. But that thing where then suddenly you have to be conscious again of like, what am I doing? Do I want to do it? And that has, you know, coronavirus, if you remember at the beginning of lockdown, when suddenly you went shopping and you had to think, where do I walk? How close do I stand to people? What am I wearing? Suddenly, habits went out the window and everything's very conscious. And so, I think in the supermarkets, it's about like 60% of shopping is done because of habit, and a lot of—

Right.

And most— and then it's very little, it's actually like conscious thought. But suddenly, people were conscious again. So, coronavirus and going back into the workplace and changing behaviors, you know, has a great opportunity for changing behaviors because Suddenly, people are conscious again of what they're doing and why they're doing it. And another huge aspect is infrastructure. So, with that example of the printing, infrastructure very often drives particular behaviours, especially in the workplace. And so, it's looking at what is that infrastructure and how it's leading people to a particular habit, and how you can create friction and a barrier to stop that, maybe by putting in more things in place, or how maybe your particular infrastructure is actually a barrier. So, the example of getting people to cycle to work is obviously quite normally quite a big thing, but actually, if there isn't a— if there's an expectation in your workplace that people should come really clean and well-presented and you don't have a shower, then the lack of shower is a barrier to that behavior.

Yeah.

So it's thinking about that as how infrastructure really affects behaviours.

It's not rocket science, is it?

No, no. But it's people— what people think is that people are making rational decisions all the time about their behaviours. And so they think people are thinking, oh, am I doing this because of this? And the reality is we're not. We're very much living on autopilot. We're thinking about, worrying about things because we're like, we're like, um, you know, our sort of like, uh, tribal selves back in the day. We're thinking, are we going to be attacked at the moment? Who's coming to get us? What does that other person think? Am I going to get kicked out of the tribe? And this is what our brain's actually worrying about. What happened in that meeting? Am I going to lose my job? And just, you know, going around not thinking about those day-to-day actions. Or if we are thinking about them, we're thinking about what does someone else think about me doing that action. So recycling is another one. It's a social norm that people put those bins out because they have an expectation that their neighbours will notice if they haven't put the recycling bins out. So the infrastructure, which is the bin, made the social norm possible.

Ah, I never thought of that.

It's massive, massive.

I think, yeah, as you can imagine, I've always put the recycling out. I was one of those idiots that went through other people's recycling back in the day to make sure that it was all sorted correctly because someone told me that if it wasn't sorted, it would go into landfill. I was like, oh, I'm not having that. So I'd go down the street sorting people's things and my girlfriend at the time was like, oh man, you are that crazy person, aren't you? I don't know, I felt like I couldn't walk past it without.

So I would say this, in terms of people types, you're a Pioneer. So pioneers do things because of their values, and they're very socially and environmentally driven, and they do things because it's the right thing to do, and maybe because they— and you might care a lot less about what people think about you. But prospectors do things because of— they care about what other people think, and so they would be more keeping up with the Joneses. And then settlers do things because of their community and their family and safety. So, they'd be motivated for doing things for very different reasons. So, yeah, so not everyone does things because they're— because of social norms, but— and if you want to change social norms, it's quite good to get some pioneers leading on it. But in the workplace, you don't want them to be too green and too hippie-ish because people will think, do I want to identify with that? Do I identify with that person? Do I want to move into their crew? Do I like their tribe? I like the other tribe, which is a bit more, you know, there's more of the people in this tribe. So you also need to get kind of the people that, you know, people identify with. So it's, you know, you need a variety of people on your green team.

That makes sense. That makes sense. And probably from a cross-section of your organization as well.

Yeah, exactly. So you need those people who are decision makers, but you also need those people that people can relate to because messengers aren't just, um, people at the top. Actually, this was the, um, the resort— the Trust report said that, um, following on from its ex— people most trusted to take, um, trusted are experts, um, and then it's, uh, local people in the community, and then peers, and then right down at the bottom there was, uh, government speak— uh, government, um, Government, religious leaders, and wealthy people. So don't have a wealthy person telling someone what to do, and particularly not a wealthy person who's a politician. We have some issues with that at the moment, don't we?

We have plenty of them at the moment, don't we?

Yeah, exactly. And also, this report— this is really interesting as well, linking back to the political sphere— is 2020, the, the trust values were, um, competence and ethics. So epic fail in the current UK government on any trust.

We should send them that trust report.

Yeah, exactly.

They may not be interested in it though. When it comes to running an ethical and sustainable business, what has been your biggest struggle so far? And can you tell us a bit about how you've overcome it?

So I was going to say one of the biggest challenges I have at the moment, and I'm actually looking to overcome it, is kind of looking at my carbon footprint. And as a small organization now, I don't travel anywhere. So before it was like I only do— only travel overland. And last year I went to Spain for a work conference. And it all got paid for by the client. And I was the only person who went by train 12 hours later. So those things have been overcome now because actually people care about it. But the biggest challenge I have now being the carbon footprint of the online sphere. So websites, hosting things in the cloud, and actually trying to quantify that is something I'm really finding a challenge because how do you equate a byte of data into a carbon footprint and, you know, emails and all those kinds of things? So I'm in the process of changing my website over to be low carbon and getting all those things done. I've got my— it'll be on a green hosting platform. And I'm also looking and looking for ways to monitor and record the footprint as well as doing things like— I'm actually— I'm— I was going to swear then— very bad at managing emails and, you know, post-deleting them and organizing them. So I'm actually paying somebody to sort out my emails because we found out that I've got 46,000 unread, um, unread, uh, email newsletters, like promotional emails newsletters, in my personal email account, and I dread to think what that is in terms of a carbon footprint.

I used clean.email. It's a software, and I've been looking for something for my personal email account. My business one was always really good. It's always had like 100 at the most. But my personal one, you kind of finish work and you go, I really can't bother. Yeah, it just got worse and worse and worse. And yeah, clean.email, brilliant. Within 2 hours, I had deleted, sorted, got rid of so many emails that I didn't need. And it basically then just sets it all up and does it all for you ongoing. And now I have a really clean email box because of that.

It costs 60 quid a year for 5 computers or 30 quid for Okay, I'll try that because I tried a couple of free ones to see whether they worked and— Yeah, they were rubbish, weren't they? Yeah, I wasted hours and I was like, I want to do the right thing, but time, time, this is my weekend.

And that's the reason why I ended up paying because I was sick and tired of using— yeah, just the free ones were rubbish. And the reason why I went to Gmail in the first place was because I figured that there would be an easy way of getting rid of spam.

Yeah.

And it seems that's not the case.

Well, thanks for your time.

There you go. If Google are listening, there's an ad in there for them that they would probably pay for. So if you could offer one piece of advice to our listeners which could help them with their purpose, what would that be?

So, this would be— so, I think if I was— if there was one piece of advice and you're trying to encourage other people to be more environmentally friendly or socially aware, whatever it is that you're trying to encourage other people to do, is I would say to take a massive step back before you start telling them what to do. It's an environmentalist's, sort of, a very bad habit of environmentalists, but just really think about what the need is of that person behind their behaviour. So, is it that they're trying to complete something as quickly as possible? Is it that they are trying to get their work— yeah, get their work done as quickly as possible? Is it that they are looking— to make a difference? Or is it that, say, with things like, is they looking for comfort? Is it that, like, I was talking to someone about, they were doing a campaign around clothes and fashion and they wanted people to throw less things away. And we took a step back and said, okay, well, what are they doing? They're buying fast fashion. Why are they buying fast fashion? Because they want to stand out. What's their need? They want to look individual. They want to fit in with their peer group. So, whatever advice you're gonna give them, make sure the solution meets their needs, because if you're not meeting their needs, you won't get that behavior change. And the advice for changing habits is that you— if you want to change a habit, then you need to replace it with something that does the same thing. If you try and change a habit with something that doesn't meet your needs, the brain will not make that change because it won't be satisfied. And as human beings, we're very, you know, we still have mammal brains and we very much need satisfaction and pleasure and feeling good. So if you're trying to switch a habit and the habit, you know, like classic of telling people that they should walk to work or cycle, and you realize that what's the needs, what does a car do? It's convenient, they stay warm, they can pick up their children at the same time. If that thing doesn't meet their needs, you're not going to change their behavior. So it's about understanding what people's needs are, and that for me is the key to any kind of behavior change, any communication, any campaign that people are working on.

Okay, yeah, that's interesting. That's really interesting. Have you carbon footprinted your organization? And if you have, would you say it's been a benefit?

So I haven't carbon— I'm in the process of doing it with website things, but I have done carbon footprinting for lots of other organizations. And yes, I definitely would say it's a benefit. I used to do it for festivals and events. I've done it for lots of events, and I'm working with a couple of charities at the moment to do it. And the benefit for me and for them is about really getting a benchmark that then they can then look at things like travel and other impacts and find a way of reducing them, but something that's kind of like a concrete— I mean, it's fluffy CO2 in the air, but a benchmark to actually work from. The challenge and the issue I always find with it is that you can use different tools and you can come up with different CO2 figures. So that can always kind of, you know, makes the concreteness of carbon footprinting is what I find challenging. But I think going through that process gives people something to hang their changes on, which, you know, just talking about something like, oh, well, you know, if you do this, you'll reduce the kilowatts of energy that you're consuming. At the moment, that, you know, what does that mean? Whereas at least carbon now has a bit more— is a bit more tangible, and talking about reducing carbon footprint is something that people want to do more and more now.

Surely if, um, the tools that you're talking about, if they adhere to the GHG protocol, then they should all come out with the same one because you're using the same carbon factors.

Except for carbon factors change each year, don't they? So it depends on whether—

Yeah, and they should. And they should because the carbon factors come from the UK, from the government, and comes from the amount of carbon that's been emitted the year before.

It just depends on whether the carbon calculators have updated at the same time or whether they've got them in. But, you know, and also, I mean, I've tried like working with different organizations. I've sort of tried ones where they use— they do some kind of like generalizations. So they make some, best guesstimates about, um, certain things. And, you know, like, from especially for events, you can find really, really varying kind of figures for things. So in the end, I've just ended up going back to the, uh, the DEFRA figures and just like, okay, what's, what's the actual figures here that we've got to work on that are actually concrete?

Yeah, yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. When it comes to reducing the environmental impact and carbon footprint of your or other businesses, what would you say has been your biggest single challenge or frustration?

So I think I might have already answered this, but it's probably this whole bit about the carbon footprint of the online world. And just really getting a handle on what that is. I, I went, I reached out to, because of using lots of third-party software, like say, um, email newsletters are hosted on say Mailchimp or other, other programs are available, um, or Buffer and all these things. And knowing that I'm storing, and I've got an online, um, I've got an online course platform. That's a big plug there. Um, so I'm storing all this.

I was going to ask you about it afterwards. Don't worry.

So I'm posting all this stuff on their platforms and trying to find out what servers they're using and whether their servers are hosted on a green— with green energy. Very, very challenging. In the end, I got on— I was like a Twitter warrior and just like tweeting people, Buffer, what are you doing? And Mailchimp still haven't actually replied. And then a lot of them will say, oh, well, we're using Google, and so we think that Google is on green energy, but we're not sure, or we're on Microsoft. So then it's, you know, it's just like these third parties, and it goes back and back. And then I've done research into, well, what's Google's thing, and what are they doing, and Amazon. And it turns out they're all buying credits for their, um, energy for their, their thing. So, you know, and I'm looking actually at turning my, um, putting some of my plat— my online training onto a local learning management system that I would host on a green server, you know, as a way to manage this better, just so I know what the carbon footprint is or what energy supplier it's actually on. But for a lot of organizations, you know, all this stuff is quite time-consuming and quite confusing.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. It's an absolute nightmare. And I mean, I know for one, Compare Your Footprint is hosted on Amazon servers and we at Compare Your Footprint aren't particularly happy about that, but we have to for security. There aren't that many. There's one other platform that we could have done it through. And so we have our hands tied behind our backs and we'd love to be big enough that we could We could host it, but we need that flexibility and we need that bandwidth and we need the security because that's actually almost more important than the environment, is it? I don't know. If it isn't, then we would have to explain to clients why we have a less secure site. And I'm not sure if they would buy that. They'd probably go, well, you need to be more secure.

Yeah. Well, this is the thing, isn't it? It's like, where do these things stop? And actually, there's an interesting— I don't know if you've heard of the Sustainable Web Manifesto that Wholegrain Digital have got. Yeah.

I was actually going to ask you if you've spoken to Tom and Vanita because they're friends.

I'm waiting for their, um, they're with Business Declares, they're bringing out a toolkit for online, um, online things. So I'm waiting for that to appear. But, um, they have got the Sustainable Web Manifesto, and I did ask them, have they asked, or is that being pushed out to people like Amazon and, um, bigger organizations? Because that would— that's the thing that, you know, what can we do All we can do is lobby those big servers to say, okay, when are you going to actually provide your own? When are you going to— if your things are in the desert, when are they going to have solar panels on them or wherever they are? How are you going to actually have green energy rather than just buying credits?

Yeah, I think it needs to happen. Did you see that documentary on— was it Channel 4? On servers in America?

No, it's on one of those things I like to watch when I'm not feeling— when I want my evenings to be depressed, which, you know, given the current climate, I try to find fun things to do with my evenings that involve staying at home and not watching depressing TV programs.

To be honest with you, Libbie, it's actually not that bad. It's actually quite— I think with what you're talking about and what you're trying to achieve, it possibly may not be a bad thing to watch. You're not going to come away and—

Leave the web for good. Stop hosting online training programs.

Yeah, no, it's more that change needs to happen and it is happening. And I think it's just highlighting how much— and I mean, it goes back to your behavior change, I think, probably. One company Set up a server in Virginia. Another one did, another one did, another one did, and then they end up with like I don't know how much percentage of the U.S. servers are all in Virginia. But it was amazing. But and you can see it's such a natural thing. No one's no one's done anything wrong. Like no one's been kind of ha ha ha we're gonna get a coal power station to to do all of these servers in twenty years' time. They literally just— business developed and then they ended up where they are.

And that's for me when, you know, this whole thing about having that understanding about how things have got to where they are or why particular, you know, people have gone down a particular avenue. Often it's the butterfly effect, but, you know, it's very easy to be sort of accusatory and say, you know, yeah, the web's doing this. And it's like, well, it's a consequence of this thing. It didn't deliberately set out to it. And it's when, you know, um, people get angry with people who fly, and it's like, well, they wanted to go on holiday, or they wanted to go somewhere. The means of doing that is a plane that's run by fossil fuels. No one inherently sets off to, you know, to create a massive carbon footprint. They just wanted to go on holiday and have some sunshine.

Yeah. I don't know why it suddenly reminds me of this, but I always remember in Bristol, which I know that's where you are from, there's a big Tesco's that was going to be built and there was a huge amount of protest around it being built. And there was quite a lot of delay, I think, in building this Tesco's. And then I remember finding it quite funny, but I shouldn't, but that Tesco's brought out that one of their most profitable stores was the one in Bristol. And it just kind of just made me laugh that there are, and I bet you half of the people that were protesting against Tesco's were then going to Tesco's. And if you remember Tesco's at that time, like 10 years ago, 12 years ago, were an evil company. They were not a good company. They treated everyone badly, but didn't realize that actually everyone knew someone in their supply chain. So you either had a friend who worked there or you had a friend who was a farmer who dealt with them, or you had a— and suddenly people were going, I'm not buying from Tesco's anymore. I don't like them. And their stock dropped. They just started to— because people started not wanting to go there anymore. And that was when they got their new CEO in and changed things around. And I think that from all accounts and from looking at them, I think they're probably quite good as a company now, or way better than they were then. And I don't know why I just rambled about that, but it's that behavior change, that whole thing of when you were talking about flights and being accusatory and annoyed and then But people do say one thing and then do another anyway.

Well, the massive thing that Tesco's has and they understand is our need for convenience. And so our brains are wired for shortcuts and that's it. So ultimately we want things to be easy because using energy, thinking about things, we just want the shortcuts and we're always looking for them. So supermarkets know this and this is why big supermarkets work because they provide a one-stop shop where you can get everything in one place. And there's so many things now where convenience is becoming king. And a lot of that convenience isn't so environmentally friendly, like ready meals and all these things. But those ready meals tap into this behavioral need for the easy option. And again, I'll talk about environmentalists in a sort of a very broad term, but again, quite a lot of environmental solutions are presented and they're hard work and they're complicated and they involve lots of different steps. And it's like, that's not what the brain wants. Don't ask people to switch from this, you know, really easy option to something difficult. And actually, as we're in Veganuary, I think it's very pertinent because I've been a lifelong vegetarian and I went vegan For environmental reasons, I now flex again.

But looking at—Could you tell us what flex again is? Just quickly, sorry. All right, okay.

Like a flexitarian is a flexible vegetarian, so or a fleegan, whichever. I mean, flex again, fleegan. It sounds like I eat fleas if I say I'm a fleegan. But when people want go vegan. Historically meant you had to cook everything from scratch and buy lentils and buy lots of pulses. And if you're used to eating a plate which has meat and 2 veg, suddenly you take away the meat and there's a big hole. Well, now going vegan means you can still have a lump of something on your plate and some veg because of all the meat alternatives. And what that means is for the brain, It's not as difficult to become a vegan because there's less, there's less learning of cooking, there's less actions, and it's a very simple switch. So going back to that habits thing, it's still convenient. Unfortunately, they're in lots of plastic, but that is happening. And, um, and they, they also serve the same purpose. So they look the same, they kind of— I think, I've never eaten meat— taste the same. So this, this making this switch is being done in a way that's convenient. And this again is like a really key thing for behaviours in the workplace, in the home. You need to make them convenient.

Yeah, no, yeah, I agree. I agree totally. Is there any advice or learning that you'd like to share with anyone listening to the podcast about this?

So I think my biggest learning Is about doing things, um, not trying to do everything at once, um, because it'll make your brain explode. And our brains also can't cope with sudden change, and it needs to do things incrementally. So, uh, making changes to a business, making changes with your work in your workplace, um, they need to be done incrementally, and they need to be allowed the chance to embed in and take, um, take time. The brain, um, does it if it's tired and it's got too much on. It resorts to the habits and the kind of things that are just on autopilot. So if you want to really make changes in your business, don't do it when you've got lots going on because it won't happen. You need to give it the time and the space that it deserves.

And where can we learn more about you? You've inferred that you've got online training.

Oh, did I?

Of course. Where can we find information about that, please? We'll obviously put a link on our website as well to it.

So sustainable-sidekicks.com/events is where all the upcoming workshops and the on-demand ones, which are currently hosted on a website that may or may not have a good carbon footprint, And then you can find me on LinkedIn as Livy Drake. And I'm always sharing kind of latest bits of research that I've heard or examples of how I'm applying this with my clients or with myself and how I'm overcoming my own brain and changing my habits.

Love it. Overcoming your own brain.

Yep.

Sounds scary. That's awesome. Thank you so much for being on today, Livvy. It's been really, really interesting and really useful for me and hopefully useful to our listeners. Thank you very much.

No worries. Thank you. Thanks for listening to our Sustainable Business Podcast. If you want to learn more about sustainable business and talk to other like-minded professionals, apply to join our online community at sustainabilitysolved.org. Join now and find a space for you to collaborate, learn, and inspire others to become more environmental. If you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to follow Green Element on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.