E134 - Nick Hollis from the 7-2-1 challenge

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Welcome to the Green Element Podcast, where we meet business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable, and in the process, help you on your journey of sustainability. I'm your host, Will Richardson. If climbing the highest summit on each of the 7 continents, skiing the poles, rowing the Atlantic sounds like a daunting prospect to us, they're the kind of tasks my guest today eats for breakfast. He climbed his first mountain at the tender age of 12. and is the driving force behind the 721 Challenge, designed to put the spotlight on sustainability. Nick Hollis, welcome.

Thanks very much, Will. Absolute pleasure to be here.

Most people wouldn't even think about something, maybe just one of those climbing one mountain. And what's this about?

How?

Why?

It was never in the plan to go as far as it has, if I'm completely honest with you. And you hit the nail on the head. As a 12-year-old, I climbed Snowdon as a part of a school trip, and it planted a seed, a seed that, that stayed with me. And once I passed through university and got a proper job with a car, I had access to the mountains, and I found myself really quite powerfully drawn to the mountains. I have done all through my life, and it's just really been this extraordinary journey, a journey that started in Snowdonia. As I gained experience I then climbed my first big mountain, which was Kilimanjaro, and that's one of the Seven Summits. And after climbing it, I said, oh, I've climbed one of the Seven Summits. That's amazing. Maybe I could do 2. And with a little bit of research and a little bit of training, I went back into the mountain range and climbed the highest mountain in Russia, the second one of the Seven Summits. And this journey just went on and on. I don't know whether you'd call it an addiction. It's certainly a passion, that is for sure. And, uh, and as the years passed, the mountains got bigger, higher, more technical, more difficult, uh, and ultimately took me to the top of the world, Mount Everest, which I climbed in, uh, May 2019. So exactly 2 years ago. And, uh, yeah, it's been an extraordinary journey.

How was the 721? challenge borne out. I can understand why— I kind of understand why you've wanted to do it. But where was the seed of thought? Where did it come from?

It all happened when I completed the Seven Summits, which, as I say, the last mountain I needed to do that challenge was Everest, which I climbed in 2019. And when I climbed Everest, I was firstly climbing as a part of an eco team, and collectively we removed 5 metric tons of rubbish from the mountain, particularly the highest section of the mountain. And for me, that was as important as climbing the mountain itself. But also, I was supporting the international conservation charity World Land Trust, who hopefully many of your listeners will have heard of. Sir David Attenborough is a patron, for example. And World Land Trust do some amazing work around the world, primarily buying and protecting endangered primary rainforest and turning that into reserves, protected land, using local people to actually manage the lands moving forward. And, um, and I was raising money for World Land Trust climbing Everest, and when I finished the Seven Summits, I started to reflect on life. And a lot of people were saying to me at that time, well, surely you're going to retire now. You've achieved your lifetime dream. And the Seven Summits really was a dream of mine, not a goal. The truth is, I didn't ever think I'd climb them all. And on reflection, I started to think, well, I now want to start thinking about my legacy. I've been incredibly fortunate in my life. I've climbed these amazing mountains. I've been to these stunning places. But I've also unfortunately witnessed firsthand the impact that us human beings are having on the planet. Firstly, there's climate change and the places I tend to go in the higher altitudes or out to places like Antarctica, the impact is amplified. So whether you're talking about a 1-degree, 1.5-degree change in temperature around the equator, That can equate to 3 or 3.5 degrees when you're up near the poles or when you're up at these higher elevations, which in turn is having a profound effect on the landscape. That glacial erosion, the amount of meltwater coming down, the flooding that is occurring for the indigenous communities that live in these areas. And I'm also really passionate about jungle, primary rainforest, in particular the Amazon. It's a place I go back to year after year. I run some very special expeditions through some remote parts of the Amazon jungle, particularly an area called the Tambopata region. And for me, every time I go back, the point where we start the expedit— the point where we put the boats in the water— is invariably 100 or 200 yards further back, i.e., the forest is shrinking. And what the reason it's shrinking is, people are turning up with chainsaws. This isn't a protected area, it shouldn't be happening. But it is happening, and you can hear that sound of the chainsaw, and it's truly, to me, it's heartbreaking, and it brings me out in tears every time I see that. So I've got, I suppose, a real heartfelt need, a responsibility to spend the rest of my life giving something back. I've taken a lot from the world in my life, and now it's time for me to give back and do what I can in whatever capacity I can to make a tangible difference so that future generations can actually enjoy areas that I've been able to enjoy in my lifetime.

When you go to the Amazon, and, um, every year it's 100, 200 yards, um, further in, you've probably got local guides that you work with. What are— what do they think about it? Do you talk about it? And do you talk about that, the difference?

We talk about it a lot, and I've got an amazing team that I work with when I go into the, into the Amazon, one of whom is a microbiologist, the same as me, absolutely committed, and he has dedicated his life to conservation. What do they feel about it? They feel heartbroken. They feel desperate to see this happening in a country that they're incredibly proud of. But they also feel very helpless because what they don't have is they don't have the profile, they don't have the platform to be able to communicate what's happening firsthand, and they don't have the financial resources to be able to do something Because if you think about it, what they're ultimately trying to do is compete with whether it's industry, whether it's the drug cartels, or whether it's just local people that don't have— their economy is such that they have to chop these trees down to turn them into charcoal so they can cook their food. And that's the reality of what's happening here. It's a very complex problem. They're aware of it. They have the inside knowledge, certainly, but what they don't have is the power. to actually do anything tangible to make a difference there.

Because you do hear about the Amazon, and I guess I'm in a different position because this is my job, so therefore I see it and hear about it almost daily. But what do you think they need in order to get that platform?

What they need is they need governmental support. They also— because it's very easy for us to sit in our Western world In comfort with food on the table to say, why are they doing it? But just for a moment, put yourself in the shoes of somebody who's lived on the periphery of the Amazon rainforest. They're absolutely poor. They probably at best have a bike for transport, and they need to feed their family. And understandably, they want their children to be educated. They want their children to go to school and have a better life than they did. And what are the options that are available to them? Well, they can support the drugs cartels in terms of planting coca leaves. They can go in and remove wood, which they can sell at a decent profit to support themselves. So for me, if you're going to find a solution, we've also got to ensure that the people that actually— that are doing the damage, because they're not getting rich out of this, they're doing this for survival. Have a choice, that they're able to support themselves and support their families in a different way. And ideally, that would be turning— you could say turning poacher turned gamekeeper, and actually using those people that have the knowledge of the area, that have the knowledge of the forest, to now start protecting, protecting it. And that is really a process of education, because what we need is for them to understand that their long-term future is actually dependent on keeping this primary rainforest exactly as it is. But we've also got to back that up with, with the financials. There needs to be an economic reason why they're not going to go in there and destroy the forest, why they're not going to chop that next tree down.

That's really interesting. And this, I guess, takes us on to why, you know, why you're doing the 721 Challenge. And I know you speak to a huge amount of people on a regular basis about these subjects and about what's going on.

Yeah, and so for me, the, the reason for 71, um, again, slightly complex. On a personal note, I needed a new challenge. Um, when you come off these big expeditions, unless you plan another one, the truth is you can end up in quite a depressed state, um, because normal life can, can feel really quite boring when you've been away at 8,000 meters putting your neck on the line in these very challenging environments. And for me, I need something to look forward to, something that's going to challenge me, that's going to focus me. So there's that one component there. With 71, I wanted to do something that would firstly raise awareness for climate change and also do something tangible. And that's the important thing, something tangible that would make a difference in the world. And I spent a lot of time researching projects, different things that I could do. I had a number of meetings with World Land Trust to understand, okay, what projects have you got that I could help you with, that I could support you? And they, they mentioned one particular project which is called Laguna Grande, and that is a 4,000-hectare nature reserve in Guatemala. And World Land Trust are currently buying 4,000 hectares of primary rainforest. It's a very, very strategic acquisition in the sense this land will link 2 existing nature reserves together to form one large corridor of protected land. But the reality is, if they don't buy it, if that purchase doesn't go ahead, then it will be bought by loggers and that land will be destroyed. It will be destroyed forever. So for me, 721, I can use that firstly to support World Land Trust on that project, and I'm absolutely committed to making that happen, to know that when I get to the end of my life, I can say, yeah, I wasn't perfect, and that's not what 721 is about. But what I did do is I recognized, I recognized the way I was living my life was having a detrimental impact on the world. And actually, I recognized it, I acknowledged it, I was honest and open about it, and I actually did something to make that difference, to be able to get to the end of my life with a life of no regrets, to be able to look back and say, yeah, I did something. The 71 platform itself, and this is what I'm trying to create, is one of optimism, not pessimism. Because when it comes to the environment, I think the problem is so big, it's very easy to become pessimistic. It's very easy to bury your head in the sands and think, well, it's not my responsibility. Somebody else will take care of it. The government needs to do something. Business needs to do something. But for me, the start of this process is to recognize that we, every single one of us, every single one of us that drives a car, every single one of us that gets on an airplane, We are part of the problem, and if we can recognize that, then we can start to become a part of the solution. So 71 Challenge in itself, it's a Guinness World Record attempt to be the first person to complete the Seven Summits, which I've now done, ski to the North Pole and the South Pole, solo expeditions full distance. So these are big projects. And row the Atlantic. And the Atlantic is my next challenge, which I'll be taking part in in December of this year. This year. But as I say, it's firstly to raise awareness, it's to raise funds for World Land Trust, but I'd like it to be so much more than that. I'd like it to be a project that people can participate in, people can get involved in, as I said, coming from a place of optimism. Not that we all need to go out there and become perfect human beings, because it's not realistic and it's not going to happen, and I'm certainly far from perfect myself. But if we can start encouraging people to make little changes, little changes like maybe having a meat-free day, once a week. Now that would make a tangible difference. Making a change like spending 10 minutes switching to 100% renewable energy supplier, that would make a tangible difference. And being more conscious about your day-to-day activities. Do I need to travel? Do I need to drive the car? Do I need to have the heating on? Could I actually be a little bit more efficient with the energy consumption, etc.? And that is really what I'm trying to do with this, with this whole program.

You do speak to schools, don't you? And you're a part of the educational process.

Absolutely.

I—

and coming off the back of the Seven Summits, it was quite interesting that people want to talk to me, and it's opened doors that would not have been open had I not climbed one mountain. That's the reality of it. I'm no different as a human being, you know, the year before I climbed Everest to the year after. But it does seem to carry a degree of gravitas. And what I've recognized is we can use that and we can use that to open doors, to communicate with businesses. And that's something I spend the majority of my time right now is talking to big business teams. And that is my day job. And to be in a position where to have a captive audience of people where I can take them on an emotional journey up a mountain like Everest, where I've got their absolute focus and attention, and then be able to show them firsthand what is happening to the planet, what is really going on in these extreme places, and to share with them some ideas, some things that they can do themselves. They can go away, whether it's the organization can do or whether it's the individual within the organization that they can do some little changes that they can make that will make a tangible difference in the world. And it's a really powerful thing. I'm in a very privileged position to be able to do that. And what I've seen is the reception is amazing and people are listening and people now are changing. And I really do think that now is the right time. We've got this inertia, we've got this wave. People recognize it, people are doing things, people are changing. And I think it's always— it's the hardest thing, isn't it? Just to get the ball rolling, just to get it. But the ball is definitely rolling now and The way I see it is we need to just get as many people behind that ball and push it as hard as we can and accelerate it and just get that change happening faster and faster. So yeah, I'm quite optimistic about where we go from here.

So you should be. And I think it's really nice to hear because you talk to so many businesses on such a regular basis. You are a window into business. So it's great to hear that you're optimistic about what it is that's going on. What was brilliant about the way that you have brought your sponsors together is it's not necessarily all about money. Well, it's not about money, is it?

Not at all. And when I first started building 721, it was quickly apparent we were going to need partners. Like any big project, you're never going to do it on your own. You need help, you need support. And I sat down and made a list of the partners that would be beneficial, that I would like to involve in the program, right from nutrition partners, because I'm going to be eating a huge amount of food on this challenge. And also just to demonstrate that we don't need to eat these huge quantities of animal products that most of us— and I'm as guilty as anybody— consume. So I've decided to try doing the challenge on a plant-based diet to show that we can perform at a very high level On nothing more than the whole food plant-based diet, which I genuinely also believe is the healthiest diet for us as human beings as well. So there's not just a health benefit, but there's also a tangible environmental benefit as well. I'll give you some examples of partners. I'm going to need sunglasses. Absolutely critical, certainly on the poles, but also in the Atlantic. And we've partnered with an amazing organization called Waterhall. And they have an incredible story. The founder of Waterhall is a microbiologist located in Cornwall, and he's a passionate environmentalist. And one of his lifetime bugbears was all the plastics, in particular the fishing nets that were washing up around the coastline of Cornwall. And we all know ourselves that the damage these nets are actually having on the oceans. And more recently, I learned that about Approximately 50% of the plastics that are sitting in our oceans today are discarded fishing nets. So it's a huge part of the problem. But what the founder has actually done, he now takes, retrieves those nets from the coastline of Cornwall and recycles them into products like sunglasses, which are brilliant. Litter pickers is another one. And more recently, he's just put together an agreement with NHS where they're starting to recycle face masks. So the discarded face masks now will be turned back into products such as sunglasses, such as litter pickers. So yeah, that would give you an example of the type of partner that we're bringing into the team. And we've been in this incredible position where we've actually been able to literally handpick the people we want to work with. And what we found is the response has been extraordinary. Not one single partner has turned us down. And whether it's nutrition partners, equipment partners. And we have been contacted by a number of organizations looking to sponsor the challenge. And again, we've been highly selective over who we'll have. And the reason for that is there are still today organizations that want to be seen to be eco, to be green, to be environmental, but their primary reason for doing that is the bottom line. Because they believe they have to do it because everybody else is doing it. But ultimately, they're governed by the shareholders, they're governed by profit of the organization. And that is not an organization that I want to partner with. I want to partner with an organization that is now much more conscious about their impact, that they genuinely take responsibility for themselves and the impact that they have in their marketplace. And those are the organizations that we want to partner So in effect, we're operating in a true partnership, not just using our platform to create an illusion that they're doing good work in a space where when you delve in behind the scenes, the reality is they're not actually that committed. It's a lip service piece of work as opposed to something they genuinely believe in and they're genuinely doing in the background.

Here's a question for you. You have a company that's saying what you've just said, but their actions, although driven by shareholders, profit, et cetera, are big. So therefore they end up reducing their environmental impact quite a lot because they end up saving huge amounts of money, which then increases their profitability. Where do they sit in? I'm only asking because this is something that I've grappled with for years and years. So I'm just interested to know your thought.

So could you give me an example of a specific organization? Yeah, without naming names.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think historically, we used to have back in 2005, 2008, many more organizations that came to us that Were they doing it for environmental reasons? No. Were they doing it for financial reasons? Absolutely. They recognized that reducing their environmental impact would make them strategically much better. They would be able to tender, they would be able to save money, their overheads were less. So it was all driven by money, money, money. But for us as an organization, yeah, that's fine. But actually, the end result was also that they became a more environmental company. So did it matter? And I think we were kind of like, you know what, who cares what their driving force is? At the end of the day, they are a more environmental company.

And yeah, so that makes a lot of sense to me. I completely agree with you. But we need to come back a step from that and say, right, So what is actually really driving that change? And is it now because consumers are being more conscious about their spending power that they're not willing to buy products from organizations that aren't stepping up to the mark? And also something that I'm seeing a trend more and more within the commercial space is businesses themselves are being more conscious about their spending power as well. And they're buying from organizations that are committed to environmental causes, to minimizing their own impact. And it's a really good picture and it's accelerating. It's good to see. So in that situation, yes, we can sit down and we can have a sensible conversation about it, because if the net effect is they're reducing their impact and they're supporting what we're all trying to collectively achieve, then why not have a conversation? That would be, I suppose, the description would be what? Cutting off your nose to spite your face. That doesn't make logical sense to me. And I think right now logic is what we need to We need to have.

No, absolutely. I'm with you on the greenwashing, and I think we're starting to see more and more of that. The Advertising Standards Association, have you ever been on their website? You may or may not have done. I was actually on it the other night and looking up different companies that have been basically done for greenwashing. It's actually quite— it's actually quite interesting to see the different companies and why they've been pulled up on their different adverts. and what it is that they've done. And I think we're seeing more and more of that because I know that I'm listening and I think that's the really good part is the greenwashing. Because I remember going to a meeting with— and it was kind of a meeting, we were listening to one of the head people in the advertising industry and he was the managing director of one of the largest advertising companies. This is back in 2011, but he did say greenwashing, it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, if they're greenwashing and they're kind of becoming a bit more green, then it doesn't— that was saying the wrong messages. They got a round of applause as well for it in the company I was sitting in amongst. And I was a bit like, really? I'm not going to tell them what I do for a living.

Yeah, I mean, that just feels very disappointing.

I mean, it was a fairly long time ago. I guess what I'm grappling with and what I'm discussing is if the motives are there to become more environmental because of financial, then it doesn't matter. But if the motives are there and they're not going to become more environmental, but yet they are saying they're going to become more environmental, then that's absolutely categorically wrong.

Absolutely. And I think we need to understand this is getting complicated. It's a complicated topic, but transparency is increasing now. And also consumers and business are more educated. They have a better understanding and they're more vocal about what it is they demand. And that— let's come back. You mentioned at the start education, because I think this is Absolutely critical. Within the educational system, you've got millions of students who have, I would argue, a degree of environmental anxiety. They know there's a problem. They're not stupid. They're aware there's a problem. They also know that it's a problem that's going to manifest itself potentially in a very significant way within their lifespan. As well. But the difficulty they have is, as a student, they're quite limited in what they can do about it, and they don't— therefore, they don't have a solution. As a consequence, they have this sensation of anxiety. But it's not going to be long before these students are in the workplace, and they're only going to work for organizations that have a general commitment to conservation, to climate change. And that's already happening now. It is from the research that I've done, one of the factors that people will consider when they're choosing a company to work for, for their career, is actually how do they stand up in this space? Are they genuine? Are they committed? And that's quite powerful because that in itself will start to drive change. So is it a bad thing? No, it's not. Market forces are working, I would argue now, in our favor of creating this change. And that's a good thing because it needs to happen.

Yeah, Kickstarter, when they announced they were a B Corp, on that first day, they had a 30% increase in job applications.

And that says it all. That really says it all. And B Corp, if you look at the partners we're working with for 71 Challenge, probably 60% of them are B Corp certified, or they're going through the B Corp certification process, which, and it's amazing, and it's a great community. But for those organizations as well, and it's happening now, and I think it's going to become bigger and bigger, this is going to give them major competitive advantage as well in the marketplace. They have something that they were able to stand up and say, we're different, we do things differently. And there is— this is a really good reason to come and buy from us. And as you know yourself, to get a B Corp certification, that's not paying lip service. That's not a form-ticking exercise. to get that certification, you've gone through hoops. You really are committed to the cause, and it's great to see that it's accelerating, and it's also great to be a part of that, that ever-growing community as well.

When we spoke, um, a few weeks ago, you, uh, we talked about your experience on Mount Everest and, um, climbing up, and I think it would be really good to Just talk us through what happened and how you ended up getting off the mountain, because I think for many of us, we hear about so many people climbing mountains and yes, we know it's hard, but I think what you went through really just shows how absolutely such a monumental task it was.

Yeah, Everest is a big mountain for sure, and I had an interesting climb, let's come back a step. So I climbed in May 2019, and 2019 was a very contentious season on Everest, and it received a lot of media coverage. And the piece that received the most coverage was this horrific photograph taken on the 23rd of May, uh, by a climbing Sherpa. And there was a queue of mountaineers the entire way across the summit of Everest. Now, that problem was inevitable, and we were able to anticipate it when I climbed the mountain. So when I arrived at the final camp, it's called the South Col, and this is the launch platform for the summit. There was a wave of mountaineers that were arriving at the South Col. But incidentally, when we arrived, the weather had deteriorated. Oh, no. And what this meant was the majority of those mountaineers were going to need to go into their tents on oxygen and make their attempt the following day. They didn't have, arguably, the skills or experience to climb in challenging conditions. So this presented a dilemma for us. Did we climb in bad weather, or alternatively, did we do the same, go in our tents on oxygen and make our attempt the following day, knowing that the following day was going to be an unmitigated disaster. There was just no way you can have that many mountaineers climbing Everest, going into that top section, without there being huge problems. And during the earlier phase of the expedition, it was very apparent to me that a proportion of those mountaineers didn't really have the skills or experience needed to operate on a mountain such as Everest. They hadn't put their time in, they hadn't developed themselves as independent mountaineers. And that again, once you've got inexperience on the summit ridge of Everest where there are some technical sections, what you tend to find is they're, they're very, very slow. And that then creates bottlenecks, which normally wouldn't be a problem in the Lake District, it'd just be a frustration. But on a mountain like Everest where you're using oxygen and that tank of oxygen has got a finite Time, it might last you, depending on the flow rate, anywhere between 4 and 6 hours. So if you're spending in a traffic jam below the Hillary Step for 2 hours, that could end up being the difference between a successful summit attempt or actually never coming off that mountain again. When I climb, I think the total fatality rate within my climbing community was 13— it was 11 or 13 mountaineers didn't come home. And many of those deaths, sadly, were avoidable. But coming back to myself, so I made— took the decision, along with my climbing Sherpa, to actually climb in the bad weather. And what this meant was we had just 50 mountaineers that were making their attempt on the same day. Most of them, from what I could see, were very strong mountaineers, um, but we were climbing in strong winds. And for me, during the night, because I set off at 9 PM. That's pretty standard for Everest. You climb through the night. But we had these howling winds and my goggles were riming up. They were getting covered in ice. And in the end, I just took them off. I was getting a lot of ice crystals blowing into my eyes, which was a little painful. It was stinging. But I wasn't concerned about snow blindness because obviously it was in the night. It was dark. Well, when I arrived on the summit, which was about 5 AM in the morning. And at this point, the sun was just starting to rise. It was getting light. And I looked across the right-hand side of the summit ridge, uh, across Tibet, expecting to see literally the best view in the world from the top of Everest. And it was a most incredibly heart-sinking moment because I couldn't see a damn thing. It was like looking through a steamed-up pane of glass. And I knew what Really what this meant, um, that if I couldn't get myself back down off the summit, I wasn't coming down. Because when it comes to getting rescued from the top of Everest, you might as well be on the moon. Helicopters can't fly that high. The other mountaineers at this point were just starting to arrive on the summit, but they can't do anything to help. You know, at that— those altitudes, all you can really do is put one foot in front of the other. And if you can't get yourself down, you're not coming down. So I grabbed hold of my amazing climbing Sherpa and good friend, Pemba. I said, Pems, we've got a problem. I can't see. Pemba, at this time, incidentally, was smoking a cigarette. So he's on the top of Everest.

I love the fact that he smokes a cigarette at the top of Everest. It's bizarre, but amazing.

It's absolute genius. It only goes to show just how, how superhuman the Sherpa community are. And, you know, it's, it's not said enough that they really are the heroes of that mountain, and without them, all bets are off, really.

Mm-hmm.

So, uh, so I grabbed hold of Pemba and said, Pemba, we need to go, we need to go. And I, I had a small amount of vision. I could just about make out the outline of Pemba, and particularly his yellow boots. He had these bright yellow boots on. So I handed him my rope so he could manage the rope work. I couldn't see the safety line to even clip into it. And I was trying to put my feet, my yellow blurs, into Pemba's footprints, in essence, where his yellow blur had just been. So I was trying to retrace his footsteps to make our way back across the summit ridge. But initially, we were dreadful at this kind of blind climbing game. It was a bit like Dumb and Dumber trying to get back across the ridge. And I mean, I fell off it 3 times. So each time I skidded off down the right-hand side, put in a brake, climbed back up to Pemba, which at those altitudes is just beyond exhausting. The heart feels like your heart's about to explode. You just cannot get oxygen. You just— lungs are on fire. And the 3rd time this happened, it got to the point where I just didn't think I was going to get off it. I, I was starting to think, okay, I need to send Pemba down now. And, um, I know his wife, I know his kid, and, um, yeah, and that was what was going through my mind. And, and I really at that stage needed a miracle. And the incredible thing is the miracle came, and it came as a just a thought in my mind. Nick, a blind person's climbed Everest, which which is true. I think it was back in 2003, admittedly with a huge amount of Sherpa support. But that coming into my head at that point in time changed everything for me, and it literally flicked my mind from a place of complete despair to a place of hope and belief and thinking, well, if somebody else can do it, I can do it. And I remember to this day just shouting at Pemba, come on, Pemba, get up one more time, we've got this. And we carried on back across the ridge, and, and over time we got pretty proficient at blind climbing. We got a little system going and we were able to start working across the summit ridge. I fell straight down the Hillary Step. I'm not sure what Pemper was doing at that stage, probably having a cigarette, but, but, but someone was looking after me that day and I, I literally was uninjured. I could pick myself up, climbed up to the South Summit, and even managed to then negotiate— it's about 8 abseils you need to do to get back off the South summit, um, to the relative safety of a place called the Balcony. So yeah, it was an absolute epic descent, not one that I certainly had ever planned or, or foresaw, uh, and I can genuinely say I'm lucky to be alive. And the reason that I'm here talking to you today is because of the incredible Pemba, um, who, who I worked with on that expedition.

And I think that story just articulates it so well that It is so dangerous doing what you do. It's not just going for a walk in the Lake District. It really is a very, very, very hard thing to do. Over your years, have you seen the differences in different mountains and have you seen firsthand the environmental degradation that happens?

Yeah, unquestionably. And I think there's one mountain that really illustrates it brilliantly, and that is Kilimanjaro. And so most of the listeners will know Kilimanjaro, the highest mountain in Africa, and it's this cone-shaped volcano at nearly 6,000 meters high. And one of the things that makes it iconic is it has this white rim around the top, which is actually a glacier. And over the years, this glacier is getting Smaller and smaller and smaller. It's just melting. It's melting away. And if you look at a photograph of Kilimanjaro just 50 years ago versus today, it's probably only about 25% of that glacier left. Now, I've been climbing— I've climbed Kilimanjaro, gosh, well over 10 times. And in the 20 years that I've been climbing that mountain, I've noticed firsthand that that glacier is just getting smaller and smaller and smaller. So that would be a really good example. The other one would be just the European Alps. Um, the glaciers are shrinking, and you go into the Alps now and they're trying to put in, in measures like wrapping the end of the glacier in, in insulating material to try and preserve them. But it's a losing battle. It's a losing battle. But the other thing that I've noticed, even within the time that I've been climbing mountains, it's not just the glaciers are melting, it's the weather. The weather systems are changing. And again, if I refer back to Kilimanjaro, historically there was always a climbing season for Kilimanjaro where you could be assured of dry weather and a good summit day. So you typically go in August time, you typically go in January time, but now it just doesn't work that way. You can get weird and wonderful weather at any time. The seasons are changing on the mountain. And I'm seeing that wherever I go, these weather systems are changing. We're also getting much more extreme weather. We've got, on average, things are warming up, that's for sure. But you're getting these kind of greater extremes, whether it's of heat or whether it's of cold. So yeah, it's a changing environment out there, no question at all.

It's really disturbing to hear. And I guess it's conversations like this, it's an understanding of what's going on through your eyes and knowing what our actions can actually do, both positive and negative, to be honest with you. We can do what you're suggesting with regards to changing to renewables, eating a more plant-based diet, and really help with that catalyst of change, or do nothing and expect the glaciers to keep on shrinking. Thank you so much for Today, Nick, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. And thanks for listening to the Sustainable Business Podcast. If you want to learn more about sustainable business and talk to other like-minded professionals, why not join our online community at sustainabilitysolved.org? Join now and find a space to collaborate, learn, and inspire others to become more environmental. And if you enjoy this podcast, Make sure you subscribe so you get every episode, and don't forget to follow Green Element on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.