Transforming Traditional Industries: Profitable Lessons from Funeral Services

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Hi, and welcome to the Sustainability Solved, the sustainable business podcast. I'm Will Richardson, the founder and CEO of Green Element Group, incorporating Green Element, Compaq Footprint, and of course Sustainability Solved. We've been empowering organizations to manage their environmental impacts for a just and sustainable world since 2004.

And I'm Charlie Luxton, an architectural designer who focuses on sustainable buildings. Now, in this episode, we're looking at the funeral industry. Please don't assume this is going to be a morbid or dull episode. Our guest today is Sarah Jones from Full Circle Funerals, and she's anything but. She's shaking up the industry by, amongst other things, producing a report about sustainability. Welcome to the podcast, Sarah.

Thank you.

It's lovely to have you here. Now, I mean, so as I sort of alluded to, I'm not sure you're exactly what people would necessarily expect. from a funeral director. First of all, how did you end up with this job?

So, I started my working life as a medic, and then I worked in health and social care. So, not the most traditional route into funeral care, but then I decided, or felt, that funerals are really important. It's something that all of us have to engage with at some point, and I wanted to create a space where it was framed as something within health and social care, rather than something that maybe can be perceived as a little bit more transactional. So I did a little bit of research and spoke to a few people and thought a lot, and then set up Full Circle back in 2016, which feels like a long time ago now.

So, I mean, that sounds like an incredibly unusual journey into your current profession. How many people start up new funeral sort of parlours or, you know, funeral organisations?

Um, well, I think starting one up's not that unusual. I suppose there's— funeral care's broken down into sort of different groups in the UK. So about 35% of funeral directors are what would be called corporate. So that's Dignity and The Co-op are kind of the 2 big ones. And then the remainder are independent. So you've got, you know, one end of the spectrum, you've got really long-standing, you know, 17th generation— maybe not that long, but, you know, 4th generation family businesses that have been passed down through families. And then there are increasing Increasingly newer funeral directors like myself who've set up. When I phoned around actually and spoke to a few people in the industry before I opened, somebody I spoke to said, oh, there's lots of these kind of educated women coming into funeral care nowadays, and that's sort of changing the picture a little bit. So there are plenty of people who are choosing it as a career, I guess, a profession, a vocation, whatever.

It makes a huge amount of sense. I mean, Everyone knows that you're recession-proof, but equally, there's probably a huge amount in the industry that you're able to change for the better as a business. I think it's a very smart idea.

Yeah, you're right. So in the UK, it is a business. And, you know, in other countries, sometimes it's not set up as a business. So it's offered, you know, as a public service. In some countries, it's more of a cooperative or a social enterprise. But yeah, you're right. In the UK, funeral care is a business. And interestingly, we might be recession-proof, but it's incredibly competitive because if you imagine, all funeral directors are inherently different philosophically in terms of what they do, how they approach things. But an awful lot of people haven't necessarily got the death literacy, is the term. They don't maybe necessarily have the language to ask questions, to work out which funeral director actually would best meet their needs. It's quite a difficult place. for people to have their needs met because it's not something that we talk about all that much. So it is actually incredibly hard to establish a new funeral business because lots of people just keep going back to the person who's been there for a really long time, even if they've had a bad experience. Yeah, so it's not easy from a business perspective.

But, but as an industry, it isn't really regulated, is it, in the same way as many other industries? I mean, there aren't sort of lots of trade bodies from what I understand, and obviously there are some events like the recent one up in Hull that kind of challenge people's ideas of how it's operated. I mean, is there a desire amongst your colleagues, maybe amongst this newer generation, to actually see regulation, to see some kind of control over how this service is provided?

Before you answer that, could you just quickly— what happened in Hull?

So there's been a lot in the news recently about a funeral director called Legacy Funeral Directors in Hull. There's an ongoing police investigation, but there were significant concerns about the quality of care for people who had died in the care of this funeral director.

Do you think that is going to be some sort of a, like a Grenfell sort of moment, which actually sparks a significant change of the way that an industry regulates itself?

Yeah, well, I'm probably more of a tipping point kind of a gal. I think it's certainly an important moment that hopefully gets us closer to a tipping point. So yes, we are currently completely unregulated. There are 2 trade associations, but membership is voluntary rather than compulsory, and that has always been the case. There was a Competition and Markets Authority review of the industry pre-pandemic, which was prompted by above-inflation price increases by some of the larger funeral care providers, which prompted an investigation. They were going to conclude just before the pandemic, so they of course were influenced by events as they were unfolding. So that hasn't resulted in regulation or even self-regulation at the moment. So the Fuller inquiry related to an electrician in an NHS hospital who was doing things to people in mortuary care which we would not expect somebody to be doing to people within mortuary care. So that prompted an independent inquiry, the first year of which is concluded, which is hospital-based, and now the second year is about how people are physically cared for in the community. So that, I think, is another important moment towards us reaching a tipping point where I think we should and will be regulated. And I think— I'll put it out there— I think we should sit within health and social care, and I think we should sit within the regulatory framework of health and social care, because I have worked within that regulatory framework in 2 previous jobs, and I think it applies just fine to funeral care. So why reinvent anything? Why not just put a whole enormous industry just under the regulator? I think that would make a lot more sense than starting a new one. But, and I think that there are anxieties. So quite a lot of people who work in funeral care maybe haven't ever worked in a regulated industry before, so they have understandable kind of reticence about what that might mean. Does it increase barriers of entry? Does it reduce them? I personally think it's absolutely the way to go. And the general public, sort of without probably giving it too much thought, and I'm guessing you gents may be the same, you just kind of assume we are. You think funeral directors are trained, there are professional standards, there must be some sort of qualification, there must be someone checking in that we're doing a good job. So I think the assumption amongst the public is there.

And now I think we need to have regulation that kind of bridges that Yeah, I suspect it's that it's kind of the thing that as a society, we don't really like talking about death in any way, shape, or form, particularly. So I think it sort of has probably been able to operate from what you're saying in some kind of a vacuum. And I know you, you've actually put together a report about sustainability with Planet Mark. But what would be wonderful if you could, and feel free to, you know, from your own perspective, sort of lay out a critique of the current industry and how you feel it needs to change, both in terms of its treatment of people through, you know, as you've indicated, but also critically how it sort of ties into the shifting sustainability landscape.

Okay, yeah, I suppose fundamentally, if I think it's important to have a blueprint of what good looks like, whether that's within care of people who have died, within support for people who are living, within sustainability, I think to me, it seems always helpful to have some kind of vision of good and certainly something that can be discussed. So something that has been articulated, can be debated, there can actually be kind of a healthy level of conflict about what good looks like, what's aspirational, what should we be doing now, what should we be doing in a few years' time. So I think that feels like the first thing. We need to have a really open discussion about what good looks like. And in the absence of a regulator, that's quite hard to do that because nobody really has the teeth to pull that conversation together and get the people around and then ultimately conclude. You know, somebody needs to get all of these opinions together and then they need to make a decision about what good looks like. And both generally and then within sustainability, what does a sustainable funeral industry look like? What is a beautiful blueprint for this utopia that we're all working towards? And then I guess you can kind of back that up with a plan, right? Everybody can look at it and think, okay, so what does that look like for me in this decision that I am making right now for my business or my person? What does that look like for me? What brings me closer to this blueprint of this amazing utopia? So, I think it all ties in really nicely together. We need a regulator or suchlike who decides what good is generally and in terms of the environment. And then every single person who contributes in a small or a big way can have a sense of what that direction of travel is and therefore guide all of their decision-making and all of their little steps so that we're heading in that direction. I have no idea if that even vaguely answered your question.

No, no, no, I think it does. I think it does. I think it's really interesting that what good looks like. And I suppose really that's why we were interested in talking to you, Sarah, is because it's like you're working in what I think you could certainly class as a pretty conservative industry. I would imagine. I'm making an assumption here, but I'm assuming it's a fairly conservative industry and you're trying to change it. And actually, I think that's the great lesson for people listening is how do you change? How do you make change in any industry? So it's really interesting that this idea of what good looks like.

So could you tell us how big this problem is and how, like, what's going on in the industry? Yeah.

So every year it fluctuates, but Every year, approximately 600,000 people have a funeral arranged in the UK. And of those at the moment, about 77 to 80% choose flame cremation, the majority of which are carried out using fossil fuel cremators.

So that's half a million cremations, give or take?

Yes, by flame cremation. And now there is a gentle introduction of electric cremators, and there's some discussion about biofuel cremators. And then the remainder is a combination of traditional burial and natural burial.

What about burial at sea? Is that good for the environment?

I think, having never been involved in one, although I would, you know, be really happy to support anybody who would like that, I think the materials that are required to be able to complete the burial at sea would mean actually it's really carbon intensive.

So you can't just have a rowboat and a flag?

That's what I was thinking.

A rowboat and a flag. I've seen that, I've seen the films.

No, I think you need— I think it needs to be very weighted so that somebody would enter the water fully, and that weighting can only be done by certain materials.

Okay, so don't do that. I thought we could be onto something there. Fish food, I thought, might be a good way to go because I've genuinely trying to work it out for myself. And I know my mother's been on this journey, you know, not in a morbid way, in a kind of like, what do you do to make it special? And if you are focused on sustainability, these questions really do crop up.

Well, if she's interested, so I did write a book called Funerals Your Way, and it's a quick guide through kind of if you want to just jot down your wishes, have a sense of the choices that are available, if you want to maybe talk about a funeral with someone else, or if you need to arrange a funeral. So it's a quick A quick read. And for those of us with parents who are interested, I would definitely suggest sticking it in their cupboard.

Oh, it's brilliant. That's a great book and we should be promoting it, definitely. Because it's so useful. My mum's going through it. I hope she doesn't mind me saying this, but she's kind of looking at everything at the moment like it is a bit more— but my dad—

I saw your mum the other day. She's fine. She's not going through it right now. She's absolutely fine. I saw her.

My dad wrote a list of stuff that she had to do for the next 10 years on her house, like what she needed to paint and what stuff, properly just said, right, this is what I do. Now, this is what, I'm not going to be around, so here you go. I think it's really important and actually really useful.

My wife's mother's funeral was sort of just not, it was fine, but it was just so not her. And I think that's the thing I sort of really fear is You know, my parents' funeral or my funeral just not being about me or about the person. And I think that's why it's something we don't talk about enough. It's so easy to get railroaded into the way it's done, but it doesn't really suit who we are. So I think, you know, from that perspective, the fact you're asking these questions is brilliant.

And actually, the act of— if you know what somebody— I don't know if you had this will with your dad. He sounds like he was quite clear what he wanted. The act of then fulfilling those wishes is a real gift. It's really, we see, you know, and it doesn't need to be hugely detailed or complicated, but just fulfilling a wish on the day, like it's the ultimate gift, isn't it? I respect this wish and I'm fulfilling it for you. And there's something very kind of full circle about that, I guess, kind of getting to what they wanted.

I agree, I agree. But that is a huge amount of carbon emissions that your industry produces actually, and I think that tackling it is actually really important considering it's inevitable. Like, we can't hide from the funeral industry because it's there. We're all going to die. So therefore we do need to tackle the environmental impact of it.

What is the most sustainable way of ending one's existence, one's life, not one's life, but post-end of life on this planet, i.e., So you imagine it's sort of buried under a tree in a wicker coffin. Is it actually? But then, you know, we know that the biomass, as it breaks down, reduces lots of methane. Is it actually better to be cremated? I mean, what is the most sustainable way?

Just, just— I wish I had the answer, Charlie. No, I wish I had the answer. So I guess just to back up slightly, what I did is I crowdfunded £20,000. And the reason I crowdfunded it is so that it wasn't industry funded. This is community funded. Gave that £20,000 to Planetmark and said, please, can you tell me what the environmental impact of different committal options is? So that's your burial and cremation and what the environmental impact is on the, on the most commonly chosen coffins. Here is the money. Please, could you give me the answers to that? Now, as I'm sure you know, £20,000 doesn't do a huge amount. So what they did with an LCA consultant They put together a report based on the information that was already available. So there was no primary research, no new data. There was no burning of anything to then get empirical numbers. But what they did and what the Planet Mark report has done is collate, I guess, what was already available and have an independent person look at that to decide whether that was worthy of being included in the report or not. So to answer your question, there are some things that it didn't do. So, for example, purely on the CO2 required for the process of burial. Burial is much less carbon intensive than cremation. Majority of cremations in the UK are done by natural gas. They're powered by natural gas. There is now the introduction of electric cremators, but they are more carbon intensive than burial, and there are some questions about how effective they are, and therefore it needs the cremation takes longer. But what the report hasn't— well, it's kind of nodded to, but definitely is a limitation that needs more work— is it hasn't then gone into detail on the impact on land, the impact on water, the impact on space, on biodiversity. It hasn't done that. Even accounting for all of those things, I would be surprised— this is now my personal, not sustainability expert opinion— I would be surprised if natural burial doesn't end up coming out as the best option. So natural burial is shallow depth, so it's aerobic rather than anaerobic degradation. There are no— it's only biodegradable materials in the grave, and there's no grave marking, and there are native species which are encouraged to grow in and around the grave. And particularly if that's hand-dug rather than machine-dug, it seems a stretch to me that maybe that wouldn't make the most sense from an environmental perspective. There is an alternative which is available in other parts of the world and is becoming available here, which is water cremation. So that's a process of alkaline hydrolysis under really high pressure, and you end up with ash. The kind of end result is similar to flame cremation, but it's white ash. So because that requires much less electricity than the, you know, the gas required for the flame cremation, that one was certainly less carbon intensive, but there are— it does— it's very water intensive. So again, this is where then it gets very much above my pay grade in terms of understanding when you put all of those things together, what does that mean? But right now, today, I think it would be difficult to disagree with natural burial. Where it gets even more complicated is if you're buried, it's more likely that people are going to come and visit your grave.

Right.

If you're cremated, then if people are going to travel and visit, it might be, but it's less likely that would be at the crematorium. But people may choose another location, for example, scattering ashes somewhere or having a columbarium or some sort of site. So actually what the report showed is that, you know, there's coffins, there's traveling to the funeral, there's, you know, orders of service, there's the committal. But actually what outweighs all of these in the long term is if you are regularly traveling in a gas-guzzling car to a memorial location, that's actually much more significant on a cumulative basis than actually any single thing that you're doing at the time of the So, so if I wanted to absolutely ace this, I would tell my family that when I die, shallow bury me, hand dig it, stick a tree on top of it and some native species, and don't tell anyone where it is. Yeah, well, yeah, sort of, yes. So you'd like us— you'd want a shroud, nice cotton shroud or wool, or again, wicker. Uh, depends a little bit where it's from, how it's traveled, how it's been grown. There are some people who are very supportive of British-grown, um, wicker. Compared to coming from abroad. But again, the data in that is a little bit inconclusive, we'll maybe go with, doesn't support what some people believe, but there is a lot more work that needs to be done. But yes, cotton shroud, natural burial, hand dug, and then find a way to have an ongoing continuing bond with someone that doesn't involve traveling somewhere. Have you bake your favorite cake? when they're thinking of you. Enjoy, I don't know, whatever it is that your favorite meal is. Listen to music, write a song and listen to it. Do, do things which don't— because having an ongoing continued bond with someone who's died is super important, particularly. I mean, we all should have that available to us and then we can choose what we need. Wear your jumper, turn it into a teddy bear and cuddle it, whatever. You know, just things that— there's lots and lots of things. But yes, repeated and regular travel at distance to a location which is You're going to specifically for memorialization over the course of 20 years. Planet Mark's conclusion was actually that's where the intensity comes from a carbon perspective.

I listen to the archers because of my dad. Yeah, I wouldn't listen. I wouldn't listen to the archers if it wasn't because of my dad.

Yeah, and that's a beautiful example of an ongoing bond. And just you know, you you there's and there's so you when you think there's things that my my grandfather who's been dead many years now, he used to drink Jägermeister. You know, before it was popular.

Sounds like a hard.

Well, I think, well, he's Dutch, and I think it's kind of just what you drink in Holland. It wasn't— it's not— it's before Jägerbombs or whatever. But, um, yeah, so we, we occasionally will buy a bottle of Jägermeister and have a little toast of Jägermeister. And yeah, it's for him. So those sorts of things keep someone front of mind that don't involve travelling to a location.

Making gravy and my grandma, that's, that's my, that's my connection, is when you put the flour into the gravy and you make, make the gravy in the, in the pan. I, I always sort of connect with her, which is, which is a wonderful thing.

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So, so how, how has the industry responded to the work that you do with Planet Mark? Do you like the fact that you're trying to put this stuff on the table that maybe some people are interested in, some people are just like, just leave us alone, we just want to get on with it?

So part of the challenge is that in the absence of, I guess, a regulator or something that brings us all together, it's quite hard even to sort of disseminate this. anywhere in particular. There isn't really a place, a person that you can send this to who would then say to the industry, yes, this is important. I think there are individual funeral directors who I know use it in their practice, so would speak to families about it and use it as a source of data for people who want to make more sustainable choices. I think the conclusion that I've come to is, in the absence of pending regulation specifically relating to the environment, it's going to be difficult to mobilize such a large and disparate sector. Especially, although, I mean, this will, I guess, be the same for most industries, but it's, you know, it runs on cars and flame cremation. So it's that, you know, there are some structural challenges that are big and bigger than any one individual. And this, I guess, where I come to with this blueprint of what a sustainable funeral sector looks like in 2030, or probably needs to be a bit beyond that now because we're not that far off that. But what does that look like so that each— so that coffin manufacturers can do their bit, crematoria can do that bit, burial agencies consider what that means for them, consumers— there's a consumer education piece. So I think the answer is, I think At the moment, it probably hasn't done very much, but hopefully what I have done is said, this is possible. It's, yes, it's all a bit hard and all that, but it is possible to start to ask for data, to see what's available, and then to know what we need to do next. And so the next person, I guess, who's ready to do that, who might be bigger and have more, I guess, more financial muscle, might be able to then do the next bit. And then again, we're back to that tipping point, aren't we? At some point, if somebody in a regulator or someone in government or someone looks up and says, this is a thing, this feels like an easy win to me. You've got, you know, if you want to have an impact, there's a couple of things that could be done, decisions that could be made with a long timescale and with support and all of that stuff that would make a really big difference, like concrete. You know, everybody accepts we need to find a replacement for concrete. So people are working on that, you know, like renewables, people are working on that. We need to find alternatives to some of our committal choices.

I think as we move on and as culture changes, I mean, we've seen people and organizations become and want to become more and more sustainable over the last 20-plus years. You're going to probably find that people will ask more questions. And that report will be used more and more. Therefore, there will be more research that will be wanted to be done via many of your competitors anyway, because people will start to change. You've already alluded to the fact that some people are already using that PlanetMark report. And I think that's really, really important. I remember when Dad died and we got a wicker basket and he was buried, and it was because I thought, I've personally thought about it. There was no information out there. But I thought, I mean, I've always wanted to be chucked at the top of a mountain and have vultures eat me. I know that's incredibly morbid, but I've always felt that's probably the most environmental way to go because it's giving back to the ecosystem. And I think that's really important. But I think, yeah, I think what you are doing is you are paving that tipping point as well.

Yeah. And that's it. I think it's back to what my firm belief is that if we're Well, if you're not careful, you can get stuck behind the I'm too small. You know, the big structural changes have to be made first. I'm going to hide behind— maybe that's a bit harsh, but I'm going to kind of wait for the political system or the bigger people, you know, who have more power to do stuff. And I guess I have chosen, and it's a choice, isn't it? I've chosen not to do that and to try and recognize I'm massively flawed. And much of my life is, again, structurally not as good for the environment as it— as I would like it to be. But it's just about every, you know, just trying to bit by bit do what you can and hope that, yeah, like ripples on a pond, it maybe just influences the person next to you a little bit. Or, you know, if somebody who we support with a funeral maybe kind of leaves thinking, oh, actually, you know, yes, you can make more sustainable choices, mentions that to their neighbor who then is writing their will and thinks, oh yeah, I'm going to mention in my will I'd like people to think about the environment. It's just little bits, isn't it? But those ripples can go really far. And yes, back to that tipping point.

But I mean, Full Circle Funerals won Best Modern Funeral Director recently in some awards. So I mean, the, you know, it is being noticed, uh, and I think, and that's great to see. And one assumes that those are the stories that then get out. And, you know, I'm in a similar situation in my industry. I'm— we're a small architecture practice working on sustainability, and we're trying to do stuff that, from first principles of what we think we need to be doing, you know, really driving down embodied carbon and Actually, I think that's critical. Do your thing as well as you can and communicate to people how you're doing it. And that is how change happens. I think it is a ground-up. I think there is a bystander effect that we're waiting for somebody else to come in and say, you must do this to change. But ultimately, we all need to take responsibility. And I think that is a really good lesson, whatever industry you're working in.

And it's also knowing what you are and what you're not. When the report came out, I had a 30-minute activist flurry of thoughts. where I was like, I'm going to lobby. And then I just thought, it's just not who I am. I'm not, I'm not an activist. I'm not a lobbyist. It's not what I, it's not what I do well or who I am or what I am. But hopefully I can kind of softly in my own way. Yeah, just disrupt the people around me thinking a little bit by doing something different. But yeah, and we need activists. And I certainly for a little while I thought, gosh, if I was one, I could use this and this would be the thing. But it's knowing It's knowing what you are and being true to yourself, isn't it? Because that was never gonna go well for me.

And have you noticed, I mean, have you seen the response to people to the report when they come to see you? You know, and obviously they're generally, I think, probably in a real moment of learning because, you know, when you're responsible for a funeral, it's a real moment of learning. Most people, you know, for the first time, everyone does it for the first time. but most people, are you finding that they're responding to the information that you've pulled together? And also critically to this sort of slightly shifted approach where you're saying, I actually see it sitting within kind of a more of a healthcare setting?

Yeah, so that's an interesting question. I feel like depending on what day you ask me that, you might get a slightly different answer. So my answer for today is my perception of what happens is that people go to a funeral director, often not having had the opportunity to do as much research as maybe they would have done for other purchases, to call it that. So they come in to see us, and then, for example, what we— I hope and believe— say to every family that we support is, we have a lot of experience in supporting people with greener choices. If that's something you would like to know more about, then I can share that with you. So we try and open the door without creating unreasonable pressure, given that people often have lots of competing priorities at that point. So again, that's a conscious decision that I've made. I think that morally, that is what I'm comfortable with. The door needs to be opened, the conversation has to be had. But if somebody shuts that door because they can't go there at that point, then we respect that. And it's the same with our general approach. I guess it's very hard to describe what we do. Until you've experienced it, because unfortunately the words that describe what we do is what every single Funeral Director Plus saw over their windows. So it's— you've got to kind of experience it to know what it feels like and the difference that it makes. But what we absolutely find is that in the feedback that people give, and we can see it during the process of arranging the funeral and the time that we spend with people, that being able to give that information in at the time and in the way that works for people definitely turns it from something that needs to get done into something that actually becomes a very powerful and fulfilling and consoling experience. And I believe, although I can't— I don't have the data to support this, I believe that that then has an impact in the weeks, months, and years after somebody's died and had to arrange a funeral, because it sets a tone and it starts to introduce some of these thoughts about continuing bonds and what might be consoling. And people do little bits of emotional laboring and see that actually that's really helpful. So it's hard that my challenge, which I come back to all the time, is it's really hard to describe what my perception of what good looks like and what people deserve and should expect. But you kind of know when someone's experiencing it. And I know it works for people when they experience it. It's just really hard to describe what it is before people come. And sustainability is the same. You know, there's a continuum. So some people, they're not interested. Some people say, actually, because of the way that this person lived their life, this was their priority. So it's the priority in the funeral choices. But for the majority of people, it's a continuum. So some decisions will be informed by the character of the person or their values. Other decisions, actually, they may actively choose the more sustainable option because that works. But it's, it's rarely the sole thing that drives people's decision-making because there are so many things that people need to factor into their decisions. And then there's so many people and there's so many often competing objectives. perspectives and needs. So again, don't think I answered it.

No, I think you absolutely answered it. But interesting. So have you— and has this report, I assume, has been offered out to the big, you know, the co-ops and the big corporate players? And has there been any traction at all with those outfits?

Well, you never know what goes on behind closed doors, I guess.

That's a very telling political answer. Well done. I think that—

I don't know. You know, I'm not, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a kind of big mover and shaker in the funeral industries that's around these tables that knows kind of what the agenda is. I think the reality is, you know, the thing that we spoke about the first of this, at the beginning of the podcast, I would imagine that regulation feels more pressing to many people in the industry than starting to think about in quite a self-motivated way, doing the right thing from a sustainability perspective. I would imagine that the more immediate and urgent priority is to understand what regulation will look like and the impact that that will have.

But it must be a fairly unusual industry that there is almost no conversation about the sustainable, you know, the impact on environment from the action of that industry. I mean, there's very few areas of modern economies that aren't reflecting, self-reflecting on those things. So, you know, it does seem slightly extraordinary that there has been no work in the area, seemingly.

Well, I think people have tried. And so I think there have been— well, I know that there have been groups set up, and there have been kind of roundtables, and there have been discussions. I guess the problem is it's the what then, it's the so what piece that in the absence of regulation or ultimately like a boss, a person who hierarchically ultimately at the top gets to say, you need to do this because, you know, I say so and that's ratified somewhere. I think a lot of things don't then turn into action. I mean, I can't think of a comparable-sized industry that's unregulated that does the scale of what we do.

Yeah. And also impacts So many lives, you know that it does seem quite extraordinary. So, you know, it feels like there's likely to be a change of government or at least a new government formed in the next six months. I think I think maybe you need to become an activist for the next few months and try and get this at least onto the political agenda in some form because you know I imagine it'd be interesting to even start by getting the government to understand the carbon intensity and the sustainability impacts of the industry full stop. If there's absolutely no awareness, it seems an anathema.

I mean, I've sent it to, you know, people in important places, and I guess I have to trust that that's landed somewhere in their heads. And as and when they have the headspace to be looking at this, they will remember it. And they'll think, oh, I remember, actually, I did get sent a report about this. And they pick it up, and that then helps to mobilise them. I think my understanding is that's probably how it happens, right? Important people see a lot of stuff and you hope it floats and, and you hope they grab it and, um, remember where to look.

I think it's those touchpoints, isn't it? It's making sure that they see it in so many different places. I mean, I'd like to have it as a download for people after this, and I've got a few people who work in your industry that I'm going to send this podcast to, and it'll be another kind of touchpoint where People will listen to it. And I think it's that, and you mentioned Tipping Point quite early on, and that's what it's all about. So I mean, have you read Tipping Point by Jared? Yeah, exactly. And it's, so therefore it makes sense that there's lots and lots of things going on and then suddenly it's boom.

Yeah. I keep thinking about those turnstiles and that graffiti. This is me clearing up a bit of graffiti. Exactly.

And I think you're right. I think there's 2 points, I suppose. One is I think the best thing you can do is just keep doing what you do as well as possible and be a lamplighter and keep sort of talking about it and shouting about it. Very great that you could come on today and talk about it. But I'd be interested to see, because it feels when, for example, you go to hospitals, I had to sit in A&E recently with a smashed up finger. And I was amazed at the amount of waste that was being produced in an A&E. I mean, absolutely gobsmacked at the amount of bags of rubbish coming out. And it feels like the whole health industry, or large elements of the health industry, have not had the sustainability reuse or a kind of a better understanding of what that might look like.

It's really hard, Charlie. So there's a guy called Matt Sawyer, He's a GP who I worked with quite early on in his journey. He came to me to ask me, what is it that we can do? And can you help me? And I worked with him a bit, but what we came up against quite quickly in health was I can't talk to a surgeon about the waste in a— actually, someone like Matt, who is a GP, and he's deliberately practicing GP as well now. So therefore, when he goes into a hospital, he is Dr. Matt Sawyer. He is a GP in Yorkshire that works in medicine, and there is so much. Inhalers was something that he came up with.

They're amazing.

And I've never thought about it at all.

Yeah, dry inhalers.

And it's— but it's the practicalness behind it that also you need to take into consideration. There is a huge amount of waste, but then what happened So if we take away all those protocols and policies and suddenly everyone gets, what's that big disease that you get in hospital?

MRSA?

Yes, MRSA. And so if MRSA suddenly just went around hospitals, we'd go, well, we are greener, but loads of people are dying. So there's such a fine balance.

Yeah, I think undoubtedly there's clearly got to be a balance, but it does feel as though the whole sector has not really looked in the mirror properly. And it strikes me that It's a symptom of that, is the way in which the funeral industry potentially has managed to evade any oversight.

Although we don't even sit there. So we don't even sit in Health and Social Care. We sit in the Ministry of Justice. Oh, that makes sense. Which I think, although if you send this to too many people, Will, they'll all go, oh, she was wrong about that. But I think it's because the coroner service. So as the kind of— that's the link, or possibly like burial land, maybe.

It makes sense because of history. It makes sense. It does make sense.

But we— but so we don't even sit in health and social care. Harrogate Hospital, I think, are quite forward-thinking in terms of their sustainability practices. So they do— so I think there are pockets of people and places maybe who do have a bit of agency and they have some scope.

I think Matt's near Harrogate.

Okay. So yeah, my understanding is that Harrogate Hospital are a pretty good example of a hospital that are doing some good stuff. And there will be funeral directors who are doing good stuff. And that's frustrating, isn't it? Because what you want is for a couple of really innovative people to lead the way, and then everyone else to be able to just copy that, to say, okay, that worked, let's do that.

So if you could have your kind of dream and wake up tomorrow and make 3, 4 different changes to the funeral industry to improve its sustainability, what would they be? That's a tricky question, by the way, except—

Oh, it's a tricky question. Can I do it in a Gantt chart? Can I start with—

Absolutely. Love a Gantt chart.

Having enough, 80% good enough data about the key parts of a funeral, not just carbon, but the wider impact. So biodiversity, land, water. And having that ragged, so it's nice and simple to look at. Then we would have a blueprint of what a utopia looks like, and be able to share this with every single person in funeral care and have them all motivated to want to do it. And then my third wish would be that it was done in a way which was. Kind and thoughtful and avoided any untoward consequences.

So you said that the communication— so get your house in order and then communicate it to the, to the, to often very vulnerable people about—

Yeah, or even internally, you know, get, get the facts straight, disseminate that to people who are then really motivated to make it happen, and then every single one of those people, persons, people? People in the industry are just really cognizant of the unintended consequences of some of these actions, which inevitably will happen. Like Will's MRI say, you know, inevitably there will be bumps. And if we're all looking for them, then we can iron them out.

Well, I think that seems like a very good blueprint for most the transformation transition of most industries. But, and if anyone's listening to this, it was—

Did I chunk up a bit high? Did you want it a bit more specific?

No, no, no, no, no, no. Not in the slightest. I think I know. And I think if anyone's listening to this and wants to help Sarah and work with Sarah and fund Sarah's work and work with Sarah to create this blueprint, well, you know where to find her. And that's it for this episode of Sustainability Solved. Next month, we're going to be talking to Charlotte Harrington from BlueWater, a bottled water company that tells its customers to try and avoid buying bottled water. Make sure you hit follow in your app so you get notified as soon as that episode drops.

For questions and more information on sponsorship opportunities, email podcast@sustainabilitysolved.org. And if you have enjoyed what you've heard today, please do leave us a review in your podcast app. It really, really is appreciated.

Thanks for listening. I'm Charlie Luxton.

And I'm Will Richardson.